French starters

I, of course, do not have fr. leaven now, and grape. I don't have time to grow and feed. When I raised her in January, from fr. got rid of, two leavens is an overkill. So, the current one is growing and happy, because I feed in the morning and in the evening, yesterday at 24.00 I fed in a high proportion, in the morning the beauty is ready, fed again, came home from work, baked bread.
In general, you have not noticed that when working with leavens some kind of philosophy, or something, is born. I'm not sure if I expressed my thoughts correctly.

You are right, the presence of leaven teaches patience and regular care of it.
Yes, by the way, we must not forget to sometimes add some salt to the leaven (a little), the salt strengthens something, I forgot that so that the leaven does not become viscous (does not spread)
I don't know if I wrote it clearly.

P.S. The salt will protect the proteins of the wheat flour from the attack of the proteolytic enzymes contained in the flour (i.e., thanks to the salt, the dough starter will not turn into a sticky slurry, but will remain a plump, fluffy dough with pronounced porosity). Protease softens the dough, but if you give it the will and time, then during the first 20 hours of fermentation of the dough, it will corrode the gluten of the flour so much that there will be a liquid inside the dough bun.
Here's what experts write ...

I somehow salted, the smell for some reason was not good. I no longer salt.

I think this is the key point in the story! Probably, the balance has been disturbed, for the normal development of microorganisms, a certain critical mass is needed, as I believe ... the quantities of ingredients are given specific precisely for this.

And I originally grew my starter culture, taking the amount of ingredients 2 times less. It turned out, on the 5th day it bubbled up, rose. And now it has been happy for more than a month. I feed 30 g of water and 30 g of flour daily for 5-10 g of sourdough.
Once I left for 2 days, the leaven remained in the kitchen cabinet. And nothing, fed, she came to life, began to play.

I think this is the key point in the story! Probably, the balance has been disturbed, for the normal development of microorganisms, a certain critical mass is needed, as I believe ... the quantities of ingredients are given specific precisely for this.

When I said that I divided the sourdough into 2 parts, I meant that I took the 110 grams from it and fed it, but not on time, that is, out of schedule. And the rest, I didn't throw it away, but left it to take out my 12 hours.

And in general, all many thanks for the advice. You encouraged me, otherwise I was completely desperate. I'll try to do as taty said: 1 tsp. sourdough + 25 grams of water + 25 grams of flour May still come to life. If not, I'll start over.

Surprisingly, a French woman has something that, consider herself bald on horseradish, that is, she lives on completely emasculated flour! And live!

Now I only have sourdough on rye flour, I'm very happy, it takes 2 hours to raise bread. I don't know what to call her, definitely not French. I feed in the morning and evening.

[Kseny]

Kseny, tell me, do you only bake rye bread on it?

Joy,
You can bake any bread: wheat, rye-wheat and pure rye.
If you need wheat, then you can put a dough in the morning or in the evening - take 20 grams. rye stock, 200 gr. water, 200 gr. flour, then the rest according to the recipe. The share of rye flour is very small, but rye dots will be visible in the bread.
You can feed the sourdough with wheat flour once or twice the day before when you want to bake pure wheat bread.
I like rye and rye-wheat breads more, so it is very convenient for me that the sourdough is rye.
Here she is my beauty

When I feed, first beat very well with a fork and water until foam forms, then add rye flour (sifted).Between feedings I try to mix as much as possible (saturate with oxygen) when possible.
In the sourdough in the photo about 100 gr., Fed in the morning 1 tsp. (Mixed for lunch).

I'll shake it up. Based on my weak, but experience.

It is possible that all sourdoughs are obtained. They just don't know about it.
For sim: if there is at least one bubble, you can suspect Life in the leaven! To test it, you need to bake bread on it. And all other assumptions are suffering in favor of the poor. No more.
I also had this: rare bubbles and almost no increase in volume. But I'm a shot man. You can't fool me like that! Into her bread. From time to time she lifted the bread faster and better. Now it only takes her 3-4 hours to lift one loaf! (or even faster!) And hope (3 weeks after birth) she did start to increase in volume herself.
All. All I knew was reported.

I completely agree, the flour is different for everyone, the temperature is also ... I have a classic Frenchwoman after the refrigerator, I thought "everything will have to be grown again", - I renewed it, etc. and it gurgles slightly and does not increase, I took it and baked bread ... and it turned out ... and rose well, and even the longer the leaven lives and the better you feed it, the ... tastier and more aromatic the bread

All right. Speckle. Italian. From the recipe 🔗 amount of dough I make one large pizza and 1 large loaf of bread.

What will I say. It is a pity that hands do not reach to insert photos. I'd like to share with you, because part of this bread is your direct merit.

A-f-and-g-e-t-b!

I also like the recipe because it uses as much as 190 g of sourdough. That allows you not to choke with a toad at least for a while. And do not throw away the leftover sourdough after feeding.
A couple of questions arose along the way:

1. My liquid leaven is not very liquid. The consistency is more like a pancake dough: quite thick. Especially after feeding. This is normal?

2. To transfer a pure Frenchwoman to rye or whole grain, stage is required: 1 tbsp. l. French + 100 g rye + 100 g water? Isn't it possible to just make bread on pure French, but on the appropriate flour?

Answers (from personal experience):
1. It's okay. It is called liquid only in comparison with thick.
2. You can. But it is much tastier to introduce rye and whole grain flour through sourdough.
Perhaps there is someone who disagrees with me.

I also like the recipe because it uses as much as 190 g of sourdough. That allows you not to choke with a toad at least for a while. And do not throw away the leftover sourdough after feeding.

and you pay attention to the recipe for Simple bread - as much as 340 g of sourdough can be added
And in Sitnoye dough to replace with leaven? In general, almost a pound

Perhaps there is someone who disagrees with me.

Maybe someone will disagree, but clearly not me

1. Generally speaking, if we are strictly versed in the classification of ferments, then it is not liquid in our country. There are conventionally 3 types of these starter cultures:

- dough (100g flour + 55-65g water);
- thick (this is our 100%) - rather sour cream consistency (100 g flour + 100 g water);
- liquid - the consistency of pancake dough (100 g flour + 145 water).

So, everything is in order with the leaven, and it should be so.

2. On the second question, I act depending on the amount of leaven that goes into the bread. If you need a minuscule sourdough to make a dough, then I don't bother which one they ask for, I take a Frenchwoman, but if a significant amount of rye or whole grain flour is introduced into bread through sourdough, then I do so, I absolutely agree with Vika - it's much tastier than directly knead the dough with the appropriate flour.

My only exception is breads of long-term fermentation, such as the Parisian whole grain. We liked it very much, now I practically only bake it. So it requires 120 g of whole grain sourdough.First, I transferred the French woman to whole grain, and then put it directly on the French woman, replacing 60 g of white flour with whole grain in the recipe, there was no difference in taste. But here the moment of long fermentation plays a very important role.

You have to try it yourself and decide how significant such a difference in taste is for you. Personally, I can't stand rye flour in bread, introduced directly, not through sourdough, in general, I can't stand it

[Kseny.]

Thank you, Kseny. I have never baked on French rye bread yet, I have a thick sourdough for it, which I feed with a mixture of rye and wheat flour.
I liked your attitude to the leaven very much.

What kind of zest are you, you bake such healthy bread, and whole grain sourdough, is it on whole grain? Or whole grain flour?

Whole grain sourdough is a sourdough made from whole grain flour. And on the soaked and crushed grain it is a dispersed starter culture.

[dan_Ira]

dan_Ira

already the most scary)) It remains only to get a cow or a goat, a couple of chickens with a cockerel and to break your cherry garden

But as a matter of fact, you have already been answered)) I can only add that there are good recipes on the forum both with the use of whole grain flour and sourdough on it, and with dispersed grain and the same sourdough. You can type and review everything in Search, if interested.

[Zest]

Zest! Well, I went to some links. And ran into. I saw your Parisian bread. Wow! Well, what a beauty! (Did you do everything tyutya in tyutyu? Sorry for off.)

Girls, thanks for the answers! So interesting that I sit, scratch my turnips and think: why else would I ask this. So that you still "about something" answered.

Surely everyone has seen it already. About sourdough drying. However, just in case, take a look: 🔗

I don't know how relevant this is for a French woman. If it's all one, in six months you will need to pick it up.

[Luke]

Luke

maybe not quite and off, baked something on a Frenchwoman, then, in the subject.

It was the bread in the photo that she baked almost according to the recipe, the only changes were that at that time she had not yet acquired spelled and replaced it with Macfoy, and received the whole grain sourdough as a result of one feeding of the Frenchwoman. Yes, don't be guided by the final proofing of 4-5 hours yet, for me it happens much faster - in 3 hours, you have to watch, otherwise the bread will end.

Surely everyone has seen it already. About sourdough drying. However, just in case, take a look: 🔗

Girls, please tell me at how many degrees the starter was dried in the roller? I have no sound

Girls, I found about dry sourdough in a book about fermentation by Sychev ... I quote:
"To prepare dry sourdough, take ripe rye sourdough, rub it with wallpaper rye flour, grind and dry at a temperature of 30-35 degrees with a humidity of 9-10%. Store up to 6 months in a sealed package." .... "Dry sourdough is not loses its fermentation properties, but on the contrary becomes stronger ... But it loses its lifting force .... When revitalizing, the leaven needs to be renewed (i.e. fed) several times ... to restore the lifting force, however, depending on the storage conditions (cooling, poor airtightness, high humidity) .... it may be necessary to add yeast to the dough for the first time. "

I would like to share the results of my experiments on storing leaven.
In my "bins of the homeland" I found 2 small 0.5 liter thermos with a wide neck. First, I chilled 100 ml of water in the refrigerator to + 13 * C and an empty open thermos. Then I foamed 10 g of sourdough in this water, added 100 g of flour, and I got a fed sourdough with a temperature of + 19 * C. I immediately transferred this leaven into a chilled thermos, closed it and placed it in the refrigerator.
After a day of storage in this form, the temperature of the sourdough was + 15 * C, there were few bubbles on it and it did not smell sour at all.
Today I will put the leaven diluted with cold water + 10 * C in the same thermos and leave it in the room. I will write about the results later.

[Joy]

Joy

and sho robyty, called?)) From the heat somehow need to be saved.
We look forward to continuing.
My sourdough is still sitting in the basement

[Joy]

Joy, head! Keep watching!

Today I was overtaken by a fiasco. Moreover, twice a day. I thought that I had already worked out Italian sourdough bread. And I decided that I would be left alone to bake him today.

So that's it. I found out for myself that even a small over-feeding of the leavening dough leads to its strong dilution. Twice today I slipped this moment and in the end I threw out the batter twice. I wanted to be upset, but did not. She's a fool herself: why did you start the dough the second time? As if the first time it is not clear that "today is not Beckham's day."

Tomorrow I'll try Simple. And if I decide - then the Parisian whole grain. (Unless they kick me out of the house: 2 sacks of flour went.)

Luke, but my Italian does not work out as it should, with such holes. I danced around him yesterday ... well, they ate it, and okay. Try sieve or very white bread from Lyudmila - very good recipes.

And I can't. And nature is like a donkey. If there should be holes, then there will be! Take out a sack of flour. By the way, you are very cool! Exactly what: "... danced ... well, ate ... and okay!" This is the very thing: this is exactly such bread. And how did it not occur to me? Ugh, I won't anymore. Good bread. For my taste - hard 4. (Sometimes - with a plus.)

Sitny, you say?

I didn’t work out the ciabatta for a long time either, and then I cooked it according to Lyudmila’s recipe, translated from her English-language website ... in general, this is when she slowly introduces water and flour constantly stirring in the combine ... it worked, but for me it took a long time and I baked the second time so ... the holes are smaller and already were, but the difference in taste did not feel much ... The main thing was caught the consistency of the dough In general, I get huge holes when I bake baguettes with sourdough, I only mold them in the form of bread, but the holes are only swept away too fast, sometimes does not have time to cool down

Hurrah! Hurrah! Hurrah!
Finally, the leaven has turned out.
Yes, that's just questions from this appeared ... darkness. I feed her 2 times a day, keep her in the basement, there is somewhere around 18-20 degrees.
So, I don’t understand something. Can I keep it in the refrigerator or not? Well, to feed once a day. And if in a thermos, as Joy writes, does it seem to need oxygen?

And now about Italian bread:
There is a recipe for 1 hour. l. yeast. Is it possible without yeast? Has anyone tried it? How much to distribute then?

[tree]

tree

congratulations on success))

You can store it in the refrigerator only if you find a place with a temperature of at least + 10 * C.
I can't say anything about the thermos - there is neither information nor personal experience in this regard.

I make Italian according to the recipe, with yeast. But I think that bread without yeast will work out anyway, you just need to follow the proofing. Focus on 2 times increase. It is difficult to tell the exact time - it will depend on the strength of your starter culture, room temperature, etc.

Here I baked Italian without yeast, only with sourdough. I don't know the taste yet, it's getting cold.

[tree]

treehow beautiful the bread turned out !!!
Tell us what it will taste like, okay?
How long did the proofing take you? Maybe I should try not to add yeast too ...

[tree]

tree

What a handsome man And this is on a very young sourdough
I really want to look at the crumb ... I wonder if the addition of yeast somehow affects its "perforation" or can you safely abandon them without damaging the crumb structure?

We are waiting for the second part of the report

[tree,]

tree, what a loaf ... Another would like to see a cut ...

Now about my refrigeration and thermos experiments. After two days, the leaven in a thermos became covered with bubbles and doubled. It has practically no smell, but after mixing it began to smell pleasant - a very light honey smell. Now I took 5 g of sourdough from both (from the thermos and the one that was in the room all the time), fed it 50 + 50, I'll see what happens to them in the morning.
I haven't experimented with the second thermos yet. But I noticed something interesting.I made the leaven that was in the room thick, and yesterday I took a teaspoon from it and fed it 100 + 100, and I took the water from the refrigerator. Today, the leaven has increased 4 times at first, and after mixing it would have increased 6 times, but there was no room - she just lifted the lid and ran to the table. And yet, when I stir it, it does not settle to its original state, and the bubbles do not disappear - the leaven seems to be boiling. I didn't have that before. Is this a reaction to being thick or cold water, or is this normal for mature French sourdough?
tree, at the expense of oxygen for the leaven - firstly, there is some amount of oxygen in the air in the thermos, and secondly, even this oxygen cannot independently enter the thickness of the leaven.

Here I baked Italian without yeast, only with sourdough. I don't know the taste yet, it's getting cold.

people demand a cut!

Sorry for not exposing it for so long, (you see half is gone already), I did not know how to reduce it. The first photo I don't know how it turned out, by typing.

Well, what can I say, you see for yourself. When there was no leaven, I baked this bread with yeast. The holes were huge, not read by this, but not uniform. But I like this one because you rubber the crumb itself, it’s not dense, but some springy and does not crumble at all. Now, on the second day, it is the same in all respects, which I cannot say about yeast. On the second day, he became a little dry.

There is still such a thing, while proofing I was afraid to overexpose it. I read somewhere that if you overexpose sourdough bread, firstly it will be sour, and secondly, it can fall off in the oven. I don't know if this is so. So the first proofing was 2 hours, then the forming and the second proofing for 1.5 hours. Maybe if I had given more time, the holes would have been larger.

Now it tastes like: Well, whoever bakes knows. This bread tastes amazing. Mine turned out to be not just sour, even insipid. I also gave a little salt, so just do ...

Good afternoon everyone !!!
I finally got my French sourdough)) I bake bread on it, I really wanted Italian, the dough is very liquid-sticky ... so I bake it in a bread maker) I am lazy in the oven), I was very pleased with the pancakes on this sourdough
so here I am what it is! I made Italian without yeast! and my holes are as small as in the tree photo)
I think I should try it with yeast and not get lazy, put it in the oven to bake)
Well, how can you shape it so that it doesn't stick to your hands ?!

On account of the fact that the dough is liquid in the Italian recipe, so I firstly gave 2 tablespoons of spoons. more flour, which, however, did not give much density. BUT, after the first proofing, the dough somehow changed. Not that it got denser, but you could work with it. You don’t have to bother with it for a long time, just roll it into a ball and that's it.

[VerbaO]

I bake Italian according to the version in which there are 200 g of sourdough and 1 tsp. yeast. The dough is very liquid, the holes are incredibly huge, like in a head of cheese.

VerbaO
When molding, I dust with flour and use a scraper, so it comes out much more dexterously than with my bare hands

about! scraper! need to remember))
and the recipe ... 200 gr. sourdough ... sooo ... I'm confused about the recipes ... which site is this from?

[VerbaO]

VerbaO
This is a recipe from Ludmila's LJ. If you don’t find it, I’ll rummage around in my place in the evening and send you a recipe.

Well, be so kind) discard pliz

[VerbaO]

VerbaO

Surprisingly, I didn't have to look for a long time, so you won't have to wait until evening
Italian bread with liquid sourdough

190g ripe liquid starter culture, room T

420g flour
1 tsp instant yeast
360g water, 40C
1 tbsp. l. olive oil

Stir, give 20 minutes of autolysis, then knead with a spatula in a mixer at medium-high speed until the dough grabs into a soft, silky ball that does not stick to the sides of the bowl. Pour in fine salt, add oil drop by drop and finish kneading the dough.

40min fermentation or until it doubles to two and a half times in volume, in a lightly oiled bowl.

Shape the bread, touching with the greatest care so that no gas bubbles in the dough fall off.

Proofing for 40 minutes under the foil.

Baking for 25 minutes at 500F-450F, with steam humidification for the first 10 minutes of baking.

Thank you !!)) 190 gr. turns out !! I got confused, because you said about 200 grams) I have this recipe, well, thanks for worrying anyway!))

[Zest]

I bake Italian according to the version in which there are 200 g of sourdough and 1 tsp. yeast. The dough is very liquid, the holes are incredibly huge, like in a head of cheese.

Where can I find this option?

And generally speaking, Zest, help!

With Simple. You are the master of it.

The first time I got a concrete flat white pancake. He not only did not rise a single gram during the proofing, he could not even brown in the oven: it turned out to be white with a brown spot on the side. (I really regret that I did not take a photo, but out of frustration I immediately threw the pancake into the compost. But I needed it in Krivoruchki: I would have become a star there!)

But you can't just take us! We kneaded the second batch (it was enough brains to cut everything in 2 times.) And now it has been sadly standing since this morning. More or less began to rise, having stood for 10 (!) Hours and after additional exercise. Not yet baked. (And if I bake, there will be little good.)

The question is: does my Frenchwoman really lack strength?

I watch her: throughout the entire thickness in bubbles. True, it almost does not rise, one and a half times from the strength in 12 hours.

I looked at the original from Lyudmila: and there can be no numbers close: 1 - 2 hours of proofing. During this time, bread does not even think about changing in volumes. What's wrong? Why do I have this effect? Brothers, help!

Luca, dear, something's wrong with your leaven. If it is thick, then it increases 3-4 times in 4 hours. If it is in a 1: 1 ratio, then it is slower, but still not the same as yours. Well, even the time of its growth depends on the proportions of feeding. The less old leaven and more fresh dough, the longer the rise.
My grape is now fed 2 times a day, because it simply over-oxidizes. I don't know if this advice will help Luda. Shake 0.5 cups of starter culture with 1 liter of water, take 0.5 cups from the resulting liquid and feed every 4 hours 3 times in a 1: 1 ratio (if I am not mistaken, maybe they will correct me.) Good luck!

And further. A sourdough dough that stood for 10 hours would be just sour for me.
Do you add yeast?

[himichka]

himichka , whimper! I am a pedant. And raised her: "Dap to hang grams !?" But come on .... That is, while I was baking bread according to recipes where it is assumed at least minimal, but the participation of yeast - this fact (about the effectiveness of my leaven) remained unknown.

I also feed her twice a day: morning and evening. Because if you don't feed it, then it becomes like a fine bubble foam, which settles slightly, wrinkling. However, in volumes it increases maximum if 2 times. And then - only recently.

Rinse it out? I'll try. Tomorrow already then.

But the question is: is it possible that in my zeal to make it stronger, I just overfeed it, not allowing it to ripen properly? As a result, I have constantly unripe sourdough plus new dough?

I myself also know the principle: if the leaven cannot at least satisfy itself, then even less will it raise the bread. But for some reason I decided that this principle does not apply to a Frenchwoman ...

himichka , thanks for the advice. (What should I do with a cake that has just started to come up after 16 hours of proofing? Where should I put it? Because I don't even want to waste electricity to heat up the oven ...)

And further. A sourdough dough that stood for 10 hours would be just sour for me.
Do you add yeast?

Yes. It is sour.

Yeast free. Which revealed the whole truth to me.

I went to smoke here and thought, shouldn't I send me a parcel to Moscow? I dried a little of my starter culture for the sake of experiment, however, I have not yet tried it dry. My leaven is growing like mad. I fed her in the morning and went to work. At about 16.30, I kneaded the dough and at 20.30 the bread was ready.I, however, add 8-10 grams of sugar for golden brown and 5-6 grams of yeast to speed up the rise of the bread. The daughter does not want to eat bread from the store, the loaf is delivered by piece in a couple of hours.

[Luke]

Luke

Hello, dear)) What are you confused with Simple? Keeping 10 -16 hours on proofing is thrown away bread, you don't even need to start baking, during this time the whole mass is safely transformed into sourdough.

himichka absolutely right - you have a problem with the leaven. And judging by the description, if you do not allow her to reach this state - "it becomes like a fine-bubble foam, which settles slightly, wrinkling" - then you feed just at the right time. There can be no fear of not letting her mature.
Most likely, it is not even enough for her, you have 2 dressings per day, she over-acidified several times and could not recover.

Now there are several ways to resuscitate the leaven. One - as described himichka.
But at one time this method did not work for me. It was better to take 20 g of the available sourdough, feed 50 g of water and 50 g of flour, let it double. From the resulting mass, take 50 g and feed 100 g of flour and 100 g of water, let it double, take 50 g again and feed 100 + 100 in the same way. Repeat feeding according to the last proportion 2-3 more times until you see that the leaven has grown stronger. Then you can already increase the proportions - take 10 g of sourdough and feed 100 g of flour and 100 g of water (then reduce to 5 g).
And another option is to pinch off a piece of the dough that costs you 16 hours (about 30 g), shake it in 100 g of water and add 100 g of flour there.

I would try three options at the same time - and some will work.

A Simple really rises without yeast in 1 - 1.5 hours.

Save the leaven urgently

I bake Italian according to the version in which there are 200 g of sourdough and 1 tsp. yeast. The dough is very liquid, the holes are incredibly huge, like in a head of cheese.

Where can I find this option?

You mean where you can see the whole process in the photo?
I can't give a link, now I am not guided by Ludmila's LJ, I can send a file to your mail if necessary.