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So that it is not sour

A source: 🔗 Huge THANKS to the author Elena Zheleznyak

Almost everyone who started to bake with sourdough was faced with the fact that they get sour bread. If in the case of rye it is quite acceptable, even desirable, then no one likes the distinctly sour wheat bread.

The famous and talented American baker Chad Robertson claims that the ideal sourdough wheat bread does not have acid in either taste or aroma, while the bread should be perfectly loosened and smell of wheat. I note that this baker became famous all over the world and his bakery in San Francisco is rightfully considered a unique local landmark, in which people line up for fresh bread, so amazing and wonderful it is baked there. The secret of such bread is not even in the sourdough itself, but in how and to what extent Chad ferments the dough. He uses wheat sourdough, on white bread flour or the one that we classify as the second grade, rather liquid, in which the amounts of flour and water are equal (100% moisture). The fact is that acid accumulates more slowly in liquid sourdoughs than in thick ones, it is believed that this is appropriately reflected in taste and aroma: wheat bread with liquid sourdough has a thick wheat aroma with milky-creamy notes, but without a hint of acid. I wrote "it is considered" because the mere presence of liquid leaven does not guarantee you non-acidic bread, so that the bread turns out to be non-acidic, its taste will have to be built like brick by brick. By using liquid sourdough, you have a better chance of baking non-sour bread, provided that you ferment the sourdough / dough not until it is fully ripe or completely falls off. Chad ferments its own to a slight swelling, when a certain amount of carbon dioxide has already accumulated in it, but strong acid is not yet felt. Despite the immaturity of such a leaven, if poured into water, it will not drown, it will float on the surface due to the accumulated gas, and it will perfectly raise the bread dough.

Sourdough bread - so that it is not sour

Nevertheless, today we will not withdraw the starter culture according to Chad Robertson (we will do it next time). By and large, all starter cultures have a similar principle of action - lactic acid bacteria and yeast work together in them, which means that we have homemade wheat or even rye sourdough, you can try to apply the precepts of our Chad Robertson to bake the perfect sourdough bread.

I have already talked about what needs to be done so that the bread does not have a sour taste and smell. This time we will dwell in more detail and more clearly. I will explain point by point what is important to know and what to look for.

1) Quantity... Initially use a small amount of starter - 5, maximum 15 grams. This is one of the basic rules. The more you use a mature sourdough in your recipe, the sour the bread will be. If you meet a proposal in the recipe to take 200 gr. sourdough, I mean not a mature sour sourdough that you regularly feed, but what we often call a sourdough, but in fact, it is the same sourdough.

Sourdough bread - so that it is not sour

2) Multi-stage. If the recipe assumes a large amount of dough, for example, 200-250 grams, then it is better to withdraw it in two stages. Take 5-6 grams. sourdough and mix with a small amount of flour and water in the proportions of the future dough to get about 50-60 gr. young sourdough. This is especially true if you are baking with rye sourdough.This additional step may seem like an unnecessary complication, but in fact, it fits perfectly into the work schedule (mixed in the morning or afternoon, and in the evening, when you need to dough for the dough, the sourdough is already ready), and brings a lot of benefits to bread. Firstly, it allows you to make the bread less sour, and secondly, it will reduce the maturation time of the dough. For example, to 200 gr. dough from 100 gr. flour, 100 gr. water and 15 gr. the starter is ripe (I didn't count 15 grams of the starter, I rounded it up), it will take about 14-15 hours at room temperature. If you knead this dough for 40-60 gr. the young sourdough set the day before will ripen in 6-8 hours.

3) Flour. For whole grain bread, acidity is even more relevant than for white wheat bread, especially if it is a bread made from 100% whole grain flour. However, whole grain bread baked in several stages may very well not be acidic at all. For example, this one has no sourness either in taste or in aroma. The dough for this bread is made in four stages: first, the leaven is refreshed three times, then the dough is kneaded on it. If you use only two stages, the bread will still turn out to be noticeably sour.

Sourdough bread - so that it is not sour Sourdough bread - so that it is not sour

and here is the whole grain dough for this bread, refreshed and ripe for the third time. It can be seen that it has risen, but there are no bubbles on the surface yet.

Sourdough bread - so that it is not sour Sourdough bread - so that it is not sour

Therefore, by the way, in the dough, I most often use white flour (therefore, the photo of the dough in the article is mainly on white flour) - it does not have such an amount of nutrients and sours more slowly, respectively, with such a dough, less acid goes into the dough. And if you still ferment it not until it is fully ripe, but until it swells slightly, then it will taste rather sweet than sour.

4) Temperature. The higher the temperature, the better the lactic acid bacteria and the worse the yeast. A high temperature, close to 40 degrees, inhibits the yeast and creates ideal conditions for the development of lactic acid bacteria, so the dough or sourdough that was fermented in such heat will smell pleasantly sour, have a sour taste, but will not be able to "raise" , loosen the dough. By the way, that is why all yoghurts are fermented at 38-42 degrees. Even if the fermentation temperature is not so high (30-35 degrees), this can provoke the appearance of excessive acidity, because, again, this temperature regime is more conducive to the development of lactic acid bacteria, and not yeast. A very convenient, but not ideal temperature for yeast is in the middle, when it is not yet 35-30 degrees, but already not 20. Convenient because the dough at this temperature regime will come up relatively quickly - in a couple of hours, and at the same time, if not overexpose, it will not be noticeably sour. Imperfect - because at the rate of lactic acid fermentation is still quite active, but at the same time, it does not have time to "overtake" the yeast, because yeast is also good and it also grows quickly.

If someone has the opportunity to ferment and let the dough stand in relative coolness (18-20 degrees), then this is a great success. The dough at this temperature will come up rather slowly (about 4.5-5 hours), but at the same time there will be no active lactic acid fermentation in it, and the yeast will "play". If you remember, we said that lactic acid bacteria most of all "love" a rather high temperature of 38-42 degrees Celsius, and yeast practically stops working in such a heat. This, by the way, is a very common reason for complaints that "the dough came up, but the dough does not want to." Often, the dough is fermented just at room temperature without an additional heat source, and the dough is fermented in a heated bread maker (often up to 40 degrees), in the oven right under the lamp, next to the oven turned on, or on the battery. Often, the fermentation temperature is not controlled, which means it can easily be too high for the yeast. Chad Robertson ferments his non-acidic sourdough at 18-20 degrees and then bakes his ideal non-acidic bread and pastries on it.

Considering that not everyone has the opportunity and conditions to ferment the sourdough and dough exactly at this temperature (for example, it’s hot for me now), it is still important to carefully approach the fermentation of the dough and avoid overoxidation.

Proofing dough in the refrigerator often produces non-acidic bread with a thick wheat flavor and a beautiful lacy crumb. It is believed that in the cold, acetic acid accumulates in the sourdough, however, if the bread is allowed to stand in the refrigerator, the opposite effect is observed - the bread is completely non-acidic and very perfumed. Apparently, usic acid does not have time to accumulate in sufficient quantity to be felt, at the same time, lactic acid fermentation is slightly inhibited by temperature (we remember that lactic acid bacteria love heat), and yeast can successfully reproduce and multiply. Proofing in the refrigerator takes longer than at room temperature, I will indicate the approximate numbers, because refrigerators, like ovens, are different for everyone and refrigerate in different ways, but this may already be a starting point for new attempts and experiments. So the dough, which matures at 25 degrees on average in 2-2.5 hours, will grow up in the refrigerator at 10 degrees in about 8 hours (you can safely put it overnight). The dough after the refrigerator must be warmed up to a temperature as close to room temperature as possible, so that during baking it opens up as much as possible, grows and no hardening is formed.

It is quite easy to check how suitable the temperature regime is with the help of an immersion electronic or "analog" thermometer: if flour, water and sourdough were used at room temperature, then the dough will be at the same temperature soon after kneading. In any case, it is best to check the temperature of the dough by sticking a thermometer into it.

And there is also such a special folding proofing cabinet for fermenting dough, in it you can set a certain temperature and it will stably hold the entire period of fermentation or proofing. After work, such a cabinet can be easily folded so as not to take up much space, a very functional piece.

5) Degree of fermentation. In a fully ripened dough on the verge of falling off, or in an overripe, already fallen dough, there is much more acid than in a young one that has not yet reached its peak. The young one is not yet ripe, but, at the same time, the yeast in it has already multiplied and saturated the dough with gas and it does not sink in water (and this, as you know, is one of the signs of a "workable" dough).

Sourdough bread - so that it is not sour Sourdough bread - so that it is not sour Sourdough bread - so that it is not sour

I talked about this at the very beginning, when I talked about Chad Robertson and how he ferments his leavens / doughs. He does not wait for them to ripen, but uses them when they have not even risen to their peak, but are already slightly swollen. You can experiment for yourself and see for yourself: unripe dough has a pleasant lactic-sour, kefir-yoghurt aroma and is practically non-acidic in taste, rather sweet. And the bread on this one turns out to be non-acidic and smells good of yogurt and wheat.

How can you determine by appearance when you can knead the dough on the dough, and when else to wait? Here you need to take into account that the dough of different moisture and consistency looks different and, accordingly, slightly differently "shows" signs of readiness fermentation. In any case, it should definitely increase in volume, but there should not be a lot of bubbles on the surface. The aroma should be soft, sour-milk, pleasant, in water such a dough must be kept on the surface and not sink.

Here, for example, is a thick dough that has risen well and is at its peak, but is still ready to fall, this can be used, it is not very sour.

Sourdough bread - so that it is not sour Sourdough bread - so that it is not sour

But this one (fermented in the refrigerator) generally has a rather bland taste with a barely noticeable sourness. It is not as thick as the previous one, slightly more moist.

Sourdough bread - so that it is not sour Sourdough bread - so that it is not sour

This is what a thick overripe dough looks like. It can be seen that there are a bunch of bubbles on the surface, it has settled a little, its dome is rather flat than rounded, and the gluten has already lost its elasticity and has become sluggish.

This is how the liquid pouring dough looks like, the consistency of the dough is approximately like on pancakes.The liquid sponge does not greatly increase in volume, but in appearance it becomes noticeably airy, as if carbonated due to the many gas bubbles inside. There are also many bubbles on the surface.

Sourdough bread - so that it is not sour

Here is a ripened and slightly winding in the middle, but not fallen, pulish, dough, in which an equal amount of flour and water.

Sourdough bread - so that it is not sour

But this is the most "tasty" dough - it is still very young (in consistency - also pulish, it contains 30 grams of water and 30 grams of flour), I have already mentioned it here. It smells like yogurt and tastes sweet, it still grows and grows to its peak, but you can already notice a lot of bubbles inside. It floats on the water and lifts bread perfectly - tested!

Sourdough bread - so that it is not sour Sourdough bread - so that it is not sour Sourdough bread - so that it is not sour

And a couple more important points... While the degree of readiness of the dough is not understandable and unusual for you, while you cannot determine by eye whether it has moved from its place or is lying like that, put it to ripen in a transparent container, where it would not spread along the bottom, but grow up. A glass jar, clear beaker, or similar will work well. And you can also mark its initial volume and time with a felt-tip pen to make it easier to determine how much it has grown and how quickly.

Good luck!
Manna
Adminwhat an important topic! Thank you dear!!! I will definitely use your advice !!!
SnieZhinka
A very relevant topic for me! Thank you! I also noticed that after a day or two dough in the refrigerator, the bread tastes better, now I know why!

And I was very interested in the "folding proofing cabinet" and then I was exhausted with the proofing ... where can I read more in detail?
Admin

For example here 🔗

And if it's simpler, you can find on our website information on creating a temperature for proving dough "How to create a temperature of 30 degrees at home for proving dough?" https://Mcooker-enn.tomathouse.com/index.php@option=com_smf&topic=149968.0
eleele
Please tell me what's wrong! I feed the dough according to your recipe, although I store it in the refrigerator and feed it every three to four days. Before baking, I put the dough in 2 stages at a temperature of 25 degrees. She let the dough stand at room temperature 25-26 degrees and in the refrigerator overnight. There is only one effect - the dough practically does not rise and the bread is very sour. If in rye it is still tolerable, then in wheat it is terrible (for my taste). Yes, the dough floats in the water. Well, what's wrong? Why does the dough rise by itself, but does not raise the dough and at such temperatures it turns out sour?
Admin
Quote: eleele

Please tell me what's wrong! I feed the dough according to your recipe, although I store it in the refrigerator and feed it every three to four days. Before baking, I put the dough in 2 stages at a temperature of 25 degrees. She let the dough stand at room temperature 25-26 degrees and in the refrigerator overnight. There is only one effect - the dough practically does not rise and the bread is very sour. If in rye it is still tolerable, then in wheat it is terrible (for my taste). Yes, the dough floats in the water. Well, what's wrong? Why does the dough rise by itself, but does not raise the dough and at such temperatures it turns out sour?

What recipe we are talking about, give a link.
Dough does not melt for several days, is it perhaps a sourdough?

Once again very carefully read this topic from the very beginning - very informative!
eleele
Well, of course I meant leaven. I follow all the recommendations given in this thread (read already 50 times from start to finish), but as I said, the leaven bubbles, rises, but does not raise the dough and is sour. The fermentation temperature of the sourdough is 25-26 degrees, and the dough is allowed to stand in the refrigerator overnight.
Admin
Quote: eleele

Well, of course I meant leaven. I follow all the recommendations given in this thread (read already 50 times from start to finish), but as I said, the leaven bubbles, rises, but does not raise the dough and is sour. The fermentation temperature of the sourdough is 25-26 degrees, and the dough is allowed to stand in the refrigerator overnight.

If about leaven - then go to the section Starter understand. What kind of leaven, how do you grow, feed, and so on ...
cloud
Thank you, very detailed and clearly described! We will try!
Nikolasha
There is a clear contradiction in the article.All bread makers maintain a heat of approx. 40 degrees. Consequently, yeast does not die at this temperature, but grows quickly. The author suggests reducing the temperature. The question is, why? And another, how did yeast end up in the leaven? This is completely incomprehensible.
Manna
Nikolay, for raising the dough, the optimum temperature is not 40 ° C, but 30 ° C. Starter cultures contain both lactic acid bacteria and yeast (yeast is usually less so than bacteria). It is bacteria that give the leaven its sour taste. Therefore, it is proposed to lower the temperature in order to reduce the synthesis of bacteria (which multiply at 40 ° C). However, it is bacteria that make bread healthy and, even more so, suitable for nutrition.
Admin
Quote: Nikolasha

There is a clear contradiction in the article.

If you take for reading a textbook on baking, and baking technology, then everywhere the optimal temperature for proving the dough is mentioned is 26-28 * C, and the same temperature should be in x / stove when proving the dough. If this is not in the x / oven, then the manufacturer deliberately increases the temperature of the proofers so that the dough rises faster, and thus the bread baking program is reduced. This will negatively affect the quality of the finished bread, the dough is not fully set, not ripe.

In this thread How to check if the dough is ready for baking? Finished dough temperature see how temperature affects the dough, and what can come of it
Albina
Tatyana, what the most valuable information, thanks. I will master.
Nikolasha
Quote: Admin
how the temperature affects the dough, and what can come of it
Thanks for the additional information.
SonyaIvanova
Adminexcuse me, can you help me? I grew the leaven, baked two breads on it at once and put the leftovers in the refrigerator. I really want to bake bread following your fermentation and proofing recommendations. But I cannot formulate a "schedule" for myself: I leave for work at 8.30 am and arrive at 8.30 pm. Can you tell me how to plan the cycle "sourdough-sourdough-dough-baking" in such a mode that there is no sour bread?
(I have eternal wheat and eternal rye leavens, I bake in Panasonic SD 2502). Thank you in advance.
Admin

This question is best asked in the topic Starter cultures - in questions and answers there the starters constantly live and will definitely help
Nikolasha
Thanks Admin for the answer regarding the temperature of the test. But there is one more question. My Polaris multicooker-bread maker does not bake bread in standard mode. Damp inside. The maximum possible baking temperature in this apparatus is 160 degrees. And what temperature should be and how long does it take to bake?
Admin

Either lengthen the baking time of the bread, or transfer to the oven.

Normal and optimal T * for baking bread is 180-190 * C and all bread makers have exactly this temperature range.

You need to check the bread with a knitting needle, but this does not give a quality result. Better to use a bread probe Thermometers, oven temperature probes
Kit
Hello!

I bake whole wheat bread with wheat sourdough, I get an aftertaste with sourness, isn't that normal?))) For some reason I thought that it should be so, otherwise it will taste like porridge))
SvetaI
Kit, normal or abnormal - this is the wrong formulation of the question. It's a matter of taste here. If you like wheat bread with sourness, then you are in luck, you can bake it with sourdough and not sweat about it.
For me personally, the sourness in wheat bread is unacceptable. I ate their famous Pine de Compage in Lyon in France, it turned out to be sour, I did not like it at all.
But on the other hand, I like the taste of well-fermented, absolutely non-sour bread, which has nothing to do with the taste of porridge.
Therefore, for myself, I decided that when baking wheat bread, I do not use sourdoughs (since it is really difficult to get rid of the sour taste), but I use long doughs that enrich the bread with my favorite aromas without acidifying it.
The same Pine de Compage baked on a long cold dough according to a recipe from the forum - very tasty and not at all sour!
Kit
how interesting, and what do you make dough from?)
SvetaI
Kit, doughs are different, but in general they are flour, water (or sour milk, or beer, or potato broth, etc.) and yeast (or sourdough).


Added Thursday, 19 Jan 2017 5:56 PM

Dough can be put to ferment in a warm place for 2 - 3 hours, or at room temperature for up to 24 hours, or in a refrigerator for up to 3 days or more. During this time, the yeast dough ripens and gets stronger, perfectly raises bread, but does not give sourness.


Added Thursday, January 19, 2017 6:00 PM

With reliance on sourdough, I deal only when baking rye bread, I keep it warm for three hours, but acid is welcome in rye bread.
Kit
understood, but if I understood correctly, you can also use the sourdough for a long time, and then let the dough stand in the refrigerator, then there will be no sourness either, but what's the point of making bread without sourness, because these are lacto-bacteria, and they are good for the intestines , and the fermentation of these bran bacteria will be much better, I would like to taste the taste of your bread to understand what you are talking about
SvetaI
Quote: Kit
also use the sourdough for a long time, and then let the dough stand in the refrigerator, then there will also be no sourness
This is not true. If you put a long sourdough dough in the refrigerator, the sourness will be a must. The cold suppresses the yeast somewhat, and the lactic acid bacteria feel quite comfortable. Personally, I make a long brew only with yeast to approach the taste of sourdough bread, but not accumulate a lot of acid


Added Thursday, January 19, 2017 7:14 PM

Quote: Kit
what's the point in making bread without sourness
So tastier IMHO
Kit
but after all, the text on the contrary says that with an increase in temperature, lactobacilli develop> 30, and at low temperatures <20 - yeast grows, including in the refrigerator, tell me how you prepare dough, I don't understand
SvetaI
Quote: Kit
because these are lactobacilli, and they are good for the intestines
Well, there can be no living lactobacilli in bread, they all die during baking. And acid is not so useful, especially for people with high acidity in the stomach.
Gibus
Even the lactobacilli of yogurt do not reach the intestines - they die in the acidic environment of the stomach. What can we say about bread, which is baked to an internal temperature of 96-97C ...

I, too, could not make my husband fall in love with white bread with sourness. It is, of course, possible to minimize it, but it takes time. After a year of dancing with tambourines on repeated softening of the leaven before baking, I switched to yeast dough.
Kit
about high acidity - you are right, about the fact that they are dying, something did not even think about it, in theory it is ...
it looks like you will have to think about a decrease in acidity in bread ... unless new lactobacilli begin to develop in the human body from sour bread, after all, in theory, let them die during baking, but after all, they are not in the flour itself, but with water they appear in the body there is also water and, together with bread, bread will begin to ferment and form them, bread has a memory, perhaps, because there is water in its composition
SvetaI
Quote: Kit
tell me how you make the dough, I don't understand
I take water, flour and yeast. All are mixed and left for an hour at room temperature. The yeast begins to grow and multiply. Then I put it in the refrigerator. The multiplication of yeast and everyone else who is there continues, but slows down. There are very few lactic acid products, they do not have time to accumulate a lot of acid. There is a lot of yeast, they have time to ferment and loosen the dough. After 12, 24 hours, I take out the dough, let it warm up for an hour and knead the dough.
Kit
Quote: Gibus
Even the lactobacilli of yogurt do not reach the intestines - they die in the acidic environment of the stomach.
bran - bypass the acidic environment of the stomach and enter the intestines, where they develop lactobacilli, am I wrong?


Added Thursday, January 19, 2017 7:31 PM

Quote: SvetaI
I take water, flour and yeast.
what yeast do you take?
Nikusya
Since I bake bread with grape sourdough, there are no problems at all. This leaven never gives sourness to bread. Yes, on rye bread you have to withstand the dough a little longer, but I don't like strong sourness in rye either.
SvetaI
Quote: Kit
bran - bypass the acidic environment of the stomach and enter the intestines, where they develop lactobacilli, am I wrong?
You are absolutely right! When you eat your whole grain sourdough bread, you support your gut microflora. But not by the fact that you populate new tenants, but by the fact that you feed the old ones.


Added Thursday 19 Jan 2017 8:06 PM

Quote: Nikusya
Since I bake bread with grape sourdough, there are no problems at all. This leaven never gives sourness to bread.
Nikusya, I read about your wonderful leaven! Could you please insert a link here for Kit, it's difficult for me from the phone.


Added Thursday, 19 Jan 2017 8:08 PM

Quote: Kit
what yeast do you take?
Dry Saf-moment
SvetaI
You seem to have read every horror story
I tell you, as a person with a biological education - no yeast and even their spores can survive at temperatures above 70 degrees. And the temperature of the crumb of finished bread during baking is 94 - 98 degrees. So everything is sterile there, don't worry.


Added Thursday, 19 Jan 2017 9:55 PM

By the way, it always surprises me when people are afraid of commercial yeast - pure, active, bred and grown specifically for baking and are not afraid to lead a leaven, in which it is generally unknown what can grow. It is clear that everything that grows will die during baking, but it is still illogical ...
Admin

Guys - here we are not discussing the usefulness and harm of yeast!

For this there is another topic - about the dangers of yeast, please go there
SvetaI
Admin, pardon me
After all, he always brings leavening topics into this eternal dispute

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