French starters

[MariV]

When I decided to make a sourdough, I also faced the fact that there was nothing to open!
To my mind MariV, In that topic, I just wrote the preparation of the leaven!
And on the last pages there is a link where you can find all this.

When I decided to make a sourdough, I also faced the fact that there was nothing to open!

Let's raise her together?
We need: 100 gr. rye flour (preferably wallpaper, but not necessary), 10 gr. malt, water, wheat flour, a non-metallic bowl and it would be nice with a lid, a thermometer is already a luxury and 3 days.
So, the first day, right in the morning and let's start:
we take 100 gr. rye flour
120 g water 40 *
10 gr. malt

mix and get a dense lump:



We leave it warm for 24 hours (ideally 30-40 *).
Day two (morning):
our leaven looks something like this:

we take from her 110 gr. add 110 gr. water 40 * and beat with a fork until foam is obtained:

add 110 gr. wheat flour and mix:

leave it warm for 12 hours.
Day two (evening): again 110 gr. starter cultures + 110 gr. water 40 * + 110 gr. wheat flour, mix, leave for 12 hours.
Day three (morning): our starter is ready for the next feeding:

we do everything the same and now we are watching her carefully. She will be ready in
6 hours at 33 *
12 hours at 30 *
16 hours at 27 * mine for some reason after 6 hours and at 27 * was ready:

Why so quickly I guess. Most likely the reason is wallpaper flour. A full cycle was prepared for the same filling on the peeling one.
Well, that's actually all I do to get a liquid French sourdough. I really want everyone who wants to grow her to turn out beautiful, active and live for a long, long time bringing joy!

Class !!! Excellent masterclass!


The sourdough is ready - is it determined by its appearance? Is it going up nn times?

When the leaven is ready, we have a couple of tbsp. l. do we take bread for baking, feed the rest of the leaven? Do we store it like this?

Hungry leaven - the one that bubbled up? The one that bubbled and fell out? Or the one that is opal - already peroxidized?

If, say, you plan to bake with sourdough 2 times a week - does it need more intermediate feeding? Or is it enough to replenish the amount of starter culture removed for baking with new flour / water?

Shota, I get confused all the time ... the further into the forest, the thicker the partisans :))

[klazy]

Shota, I get confused all the time ... the further into the forest, the thicker the partisans :))

klazy, everything is in order with the partisans, it's not you who are confused, it's just that someone (let's not point a finger) did not write what he was doing next.
By its appearance, you can very easily determine whether it is ready for baking or not, and after a week of communication with the leaven, many questions themselves will "disappear". So, if you have it liquid, then it will rise by about 2 times, and 2.5 times is already the maximum. It will bubble.
Feed ideally 1: 1: 1, i.e. per 100 grams. starter cultures 100 gr. water and 100 gr. flour, but it is almost impossible, with such feeding, after 6 hours, it will fall off, it's very warm. Therefore, I feed on 100g. starter culture 200 gr. water and 200 gr. flour to gain time (8-10 hours guaranteed).
The "accumulation method" which I use on weekends helps out. I take 20 gr. sourdough + 20 water and 20 flour. Fermented, you get 60 gr. I add 60 water and 60 flour. Then 180 and 180 gr. We get 540gr. For already 340 gr. for "simple bread" is, the rest I feed on.
I usually bake 500 grams of bread. flour, so I take 500 gr. sourdough, so that half of the flour is in sourdough.
I tried to "rejuvenate" as Lyudmila advised, so that it was enough for a day: 5 grams. sourdough 125 gr. water and 125 gr. flour, which is 1:50. The result is not enough for a day, for a maximum of 20 hours.
To further reduce the time, I transfer it to a thick state: I take a spoonful of liquid sourdough and add 50 grams. water and 100 gr. flour.I knead well and leave it for a day boldly, it happens longer, it depends on the temperature. At any time, I take a thick spoon and turn it into a liquid one by adding again an equal amount of flour and water. Just keep in mind that the thick one increases by 6-6.5 times.
Any recipe for bread on a dough I bake replacing the dough with sourdough.
I don’t know how correctly I presented my developments, do not hesitate to ask questions, please.

Vicki, thanks ... I guess I'll have to put in a new leaven, something that is on my balcony I don't like ...

I'm very good. embarrassing to load you ... let's assume that I will present here the story of my orphan in order to carry out independent work on mistakes ... and if smart people have any thoughts, I will be immensely grateful ...

the leaven began as Romina MK the leaven went through a couple of weekly cycles (we rest for 4 days, we feed and bake for 3 days, the rest is resting)

then I wanted wheat sourdough bread, then a master class from Zest (we bake sourdough bread in the oven) at the right time came to my hand (just after I fed the remaining 2 tbsp. l. of sourdough 200gr. of whole grain flour and 200gr. water) everything turned out wonderfully for mnu, the dough rose 2 times in 9 hours, in the middle there was such a "forest with threads" ... something like that:

[Now you and I have 2 tbsp. l. spoons of ripe dough in the refrigerator ... not scary, you can push off from this.I would do this:- pulled this mass out of the refrigerator and held it for at least an hour at room temperature to keep warm;- would take from her no more than 1 tsp. (we consider the remainder as a residual waste product of the sourdough and throw it away mercilessly) and beat it until foam appears in 50 grams of water;- added 50 g of flour there and mixed thoroughly.Fffsø. This is your starter culture of 100% moisture. I keep it in this ratio of flour to water, it's easier for me: I always know how much flour-water is in the sourdough.Now hold it for about an hour - one and a half at room temperature, so that fermentation processes begin in it, and you can send it for storage for 2-3 days. But this is only if you are sure that there are 10 * in your refrigerator. I have not found a place in mine where the temperature would be higher than 4-5 *.If the temperature is below 10 *, then all the sense of mixing with sourdough is lost: all bacteria "responsible for the leavening taste and aroma" will die in it, only wild yeast will survive. PS as soon as you read this message, take out the remnants of your dough from the refrigerator and do all the above manipulations with it, otherwise she will not escape hungry fainting, or even fatal outcome.]

I continue ... the bread turned out wonderful, of course, there were no such fashionable holes, but I didn't bake it in the oven, and accordingly, I made the bun thicker ... but everyone was happy with the taste and aroma ...

after baking the bread, the remaining 2 tbsp. l. I put the dough in the refrigerator for a couple of days ... then, on the advice of the raisin, I began to save the leaven like this:
Now you and I have 2 tbsp. l. spoons of ripe dough in the refrigerator ... not scary, you can push off from this.
I would do this:
- pulled this mass out of the refrigerator and held it for at least an hour at room temperature to keep warm;
- would take from her no more than 1 tsp. (we consider the remainder as a residual waste product of the sourdough and throw it away mercilessly) and beat it until foam appears in 50 grams of water;
- added 50 g of flour there and mixed thoroughly.

Fffsø. This is your starter culture of 100% moisture. I keep it in this ratio of flour to water, it's easier for me: I always know how much flour-water is in the sourdough.

Now hold it for about an hour - one and a half at room temperature, so that fermentation processes begin in it, and you can send it for storage for 2-3 days. But this is only if you are sure that there are 10 * in your refrigerator. I have not found a place in mine where the temperature would be higher than 4-5 *.

If the temperature is below 10 *, then all the sense of mixing with sourdough is lost: all bacteria "responsible for the leavening taste and aroma" will die in it, only wild yeast will survive.

PS as soon as you read this message, take out the remnants of your dough from the refrigerator and do all the above manipulations with it, otherwise she will not escape hungry fainting, or even fatal outcome.

So ... that's what I actually did, I put the leaven no longer in the refrigerator, but on the glazed loggia from sin ... in 2 days it doubled, bubbled and I again put the dough on it for "Izuminsky bread".
this time the dough behaved sluggishly ... it rose for a day, did not increase 2 times, only 1.5 and there was no such "forest with threads" as the last time ... the bread grew, but somehow it seemed too heavy to me , to be honest...
The sourdough remaining from the dough (2 tablespoons) I fed 60g. flour and 60g. water, held an hour in the kitchen and again sent it into exile on the balcony ... there she rose 1.5 times, then it does not grow and does not go down, it bubbles weakly (there are bulks on top, on the sides it is almost invisible) and in general some then it is dry and not loose ... that is, if you stop it, the bubbles burst, but "woods with threads", again, no ...
somewhere it looks like this from above, only the bubbles are 2 times less:

here I am thinking ... you can still bring it to mind or "do not waste, godmother, strength, go down to the bottom!"?

[Klazy]

Klazy, it seems to me that she is still young, try to keep her in the kitchen and feed her 2 times a day, or she over-acidified, then take 1 tbsp. l. sourdough and + 100 gr. flour and 100 gr. water.

We need: 100 gr. rye flour (preferably wallpaper, but not necessary), 10 gr. malt, water, wheat flour, a non-metallic bowl and it would be nice with a lid, a thermometer is already a luxury and 3 days.

Please tell me, malt is required, otherwise we only sell kvass concentrate, which includes malt, sugar, water and citric acid.

Try to look at the site of Maxim Syrnikov 🔗 there is a link to his LJ magazine where he details how he makes malt.
The one with acid will definitely not work.

[Klazy]

Klazy, it seems to me that she is still young, try to keep her in the kitchen and feed her 2 times a day, or she over-acidified, then take 1 tbsp. l. sourdough and + 100 gr. flour and 100 gr. water.

yes, she smells really vinegar

yes, she smells really vinegar

means peroxide!

Try to look at the site of Maxim Syrnikov 🔗 there is a link to his LJ magazine where he details how he makes malt.
The one with acid will definitely not work.

Thank you very much, I'll go look.

[Viki]

The "accumulation method" which I use on weekends helps out. I take 20 gr. sourdough + 20 water and 20 flour. Fermented, you get 60 gr. I add 60 water and 60 flour. Then 180 and 180 gr. We get 540gr. For already 340 gr. for "simple bread" is, the rest I feed on.

Viki I started feeding the sourdough using this method. Can you please tell me, should the next feeding (60 water and 60 flour) be carried out in a day or after doubling the volume of the starter culture?
+ from me 20 gr. starter cultures + 20 water and 20 flour the result is a rather dense plasticine mass - is that how it should be?
Thank you:)

in 4 hours the leaven has grown 1.5 times ... does this somehow characterize it?

[Viki,]

Viki, and I'll do a little bit of questions, if I may?
Interested in the acidity of the leaven.
1. Doesn't the principle of accumulation make it more acidic?
2. During feeding, with a different ratio of leaven: new dough (say 1: 2 and 1:20) does the acidity of the leaven change, or does this only affect the fermentation time?

7 hours have passed ... the leaven has grown 2.5 times ... what to do with it? watch?

7 hours have passed ... the leaven has grown 2.5 times ... what to do with it? watch?

So it's time to feed. And watch for the next 7 hours.
You can feed 1: 2: 2. This will give you 12 - 14 hours instead of seven.
Here one friend of mine measured acidity (she is a chemist), she says that it does not affect acidity. But after the refrigerator (there was 5 * C), the acidity increased significantly.
It turned out to be active for you. It is very good! When will we see your sourdough bread? Can't wait anymore

10 hours have passed, it has grown 3 times
I will go to feed 60 water and 60 flour.

and today I baked bread for half a cup of sourdough (greed, as always - "better in us than in a basin") well, very tasty tipoborodinsky turned out :)) only small (I made 500g ... so that many products do not translate :))

[klazy]

klazy
Found in this thread a story about the "misadventures of your orphan." Now the situation has cleared up. The original leaven that you used for the first bread was not strong enough yet. And even from this "wealth" there were only 2 tbsp. spoons that managed to live in the refrigerator ... If you are going to bake often, then there was no need to send the leaven for storage. In this particular situation, on the contrary, it was necessary to feed at room temperature approximately every 8 hours in high proportions to strengthen the leaven.
I, too, would not start the sourdough directly on the sourdough that "arrived" from storage, I would certainly feed it at least once at room temperature. This is where the legs of an unsuccessful sourdough, dough on it and, accordingly, bread grow.

["accumulation method" which I use on weekends. I take 20 gr.sourdough + 20 water and 20 flour. Fermented, you get 60 gr. I add 60 water and 60 flour. Then 180 and 180 gr. We get 540gr. For already 340 gr. for "simple bread" is, the rest I feed on.]

Zest, I'm lost again
Acting according to the Wiki algorithm ("accumulation method" which I use on weekends. I take 20 gr.sourdough + 20 water and 20 flour. Fermented, you get 60 gr. I add 60 water and 60 flour. Then 180 and 180 gr. We get 540gr. For already 340 gr. for "simple bread" is, the rest I feed on.), in the evening (at about 19:00) I fed the sourdough for the second time ... by 21:00 it had already grown by a third (from 200 ml to 300). As far as I understand, in the morning she will need to be fed 180 water + 180 flour ... and what next? How much should she give to ferment? Is it possible to take some part of the resulting sourdough and use it instead of the sourdough? Or is it necessary to put a dough ON the resulting leaven? And what to do with the leftover leaven? Feed and store?
What is the best way to deal with it if you plan to bake, say, every 2-3 days?
Thank you:))

[klazy]

klazy

don't get lost or torn between the two methods. Otherwise, two nannies will have a child without an eye)) Follow through on Vicki's recommendations, and everything will be fine.

And now I will revive my sourdough in parallel in two ways - feeding in high proportions and the "accumulation method", there will be an experience, to which of them the sourdough will react better))

[klazy]

klazy, in 2 hours by a third - this is already the result!
Let's try again in the morning, and then leave one spoonful (gram 5) from your already very active leaven and "grind" it by 100 - 125 gr. water and the same amount of flour. Then we will see whether the resuscitation process has been successful for us.
And if it is so active now, then you can try to replace the dough with it. Are you ready for feats?

"there is to prepare for exploits!"
sourdough overnight grew to 500 ml and opal to 420 ...
I'll go feed ...

so ... in 4 hours the sourdough rose more than twice ... I separated half, put simple bread on it, put the rest on the balcony ... what to do with it?

Viki Hello! Have a question about sourdough? after the last change at 12 o'clock in the morning, she was covered with small bubbles from the top, but did not increase in volume, when I mixed it, it was loose (but also micro-bubbles), I fed her again and left at about a temperature of 25-27 g. in the microwave which I periodically heat up (maybe of course there is a higher temperature? I don’t know there is no term.) So she had to behave, or is there something wrong with her?

so ... in 4 hours the sourdough rose more than twice ... I separated half, put simple bread on it, put the rest on the balcony ... what to do with it?

let us leave one spoonful (gram 5) from your already very active leaven and "grind" it by 100 - 125 gr. water and the same amount of flour. Then we will see whether the resuscitation process has been successful for us.

that is exactly what to do with the remainder. Thin, leave at room temperature and see how long it takes for the melted starter to double in size.

but other??? throw away ??? (yes, I'm a jerk, I'd rather eat it raw !!!)

but other??? throw away ??? (yes, I'm a jerk, I'd rather eat it raw !!!)

"Cut Shura, cut, she is golden."
You can bake one more bread or make pancakes That is why such a "cumulative method" is good in cases when there is no other way out (resuscitation) or when you know what you are saving up for
In the future, you do not need to grow such quantities and throw away the leftovers, or even not far to a heart attack.As your melted starter grows 2 times, you will need to decide what, how much and when you are going to bake in order to grow the required amount by the required time , leaving no more than 5 - 20 g for feeding and breeding for the next baking. So the consumption is scanty

[Viki and Zest]

As your melted sourdough grows 2 times, you will need to decide what, how much and when you are going to bake in order to grow the right amount by the right time, leaving no more than 5 - 20 g for feeding and breeding for the next baking.

Ok, now I'm going to soften her ... uuuuuuuuuuuh
and, let’s say, I’ll decide that next time I’m going to bake bread in 3 days ... what should I do with it, rejuvenated, after the germination test?

Yes, Zest, there is still a question for the guru ...no one watched how the leaven interacts with soda? .. I still have baby carrot puree disappearing (our teeth - we don't sleep at night, we don't want to eat ...), I thought to fit it into a carrot cake - can I put the leaven there? or they "bite" with them, as my mother used to say ... the leaven is like an acidic medium, it should work .. (neutralization reaction: acid + alkali = water + salt ... I remember from school chemistry ... )

and more, girls, Viki and Zest I do not know what size letters to write to you THANK YOU!!!!!!!!

Ok, now I'm going to soften her ... uuuuuuuuuuuh
and, let’s say, I’ll decide that next time I’m going to bake bread in 3 days ... what should I do with it, rejuvenated, after the germination test?

And then, for some time, your attentiveness and observation are needed to determine what has grown there and with what strength and speed it grows and eats.
The rejuvenated sourdough, after rising 2 times, is already ready for baking again So, prepare yourself mentally - either bake again, or eat raw with a spoon
If you bake every 2 days, then it makes no sense to send it for storage at 10 *.
After softening, I usually feed the leaven 1: 2 or 3 no more than two or three times (one part of the leaven to 2-3 parts of fresh dough), and then I soften it again.
With this algorithm, I like her vitality most of all.

After softening, I usually feed the leaven 1: 2 or 3 no more than two or three times (one part of the leaven to 2-3 parts of fresh dough), and then I soften it again.

yeah ... "you need to run twice as fast to just stay in place" (c)
the leaven ate "two for a hundred" (flour and water), after a couple of hours she will have to give "two for two hundred", tomorrow - "two for three hundred" ... I'll go clean the bathroom - for the sourdough ... maybe all the same on her balcony?

and also ... I am a brake ... how to determine that "it is hungry and wants to eat"? Is it bubbling a lot? falls off? yelling in a bad voice? with Tamagotchi everything is much easier somehow :))

[klazy]

klazy

everything is easier)) I know in advance approximately when and what I will bake and how much leaven will be needed.
Let's say I kneaded the sourdough dough and I have 5 g left. To these 5 g I add 50 g of water and 50 g of flour. This is a fairly high proportion. I let it stand for an hour at room temperature, so that the "process starts", and I rearrange it on the windowsill. In this case, I know that for 10 hours I can be calm. Before this time, the leaven will not have time to grow to its maximum and begin to fall off. Further - I feed and use or send to the windowsill, as needed.
If the sourdough is constantly only to be softened, then it becomes too "clogged" or something ... not so fluffy and plump. In any case, some amount has to be sacrificed, this is not a waste-free production
You, most importantly, do not run in front of the locomotive, but watch the leaven)) Further, no one will tell you to within a minute and a gram. Everything will depend on temperature and strength.

"how to determine that" it is hungry and wants to eat "? is it bubbling a lot? falling off? screaming in a bad voice? with tamagotchi everything is much easier somehow :))"

I agree, if I screamed, it would be easier. With all my desire to feed the cat, I will not forget, he will begin to claw at the legs, and this one suffers, poor thing, in silence. Let me put it this way. If the leaven has risen to the maximum and has fallen out, then it already begins to sour. If you miss it a couple of times, then nothing terrible will happen, but if you use it as a constant practice, it will certainly affect the quality of the bread. So, leaven is an organism that constantly develops and eats. I prefer to feed her as soon as she starts to fall off. She does not like rest with me. He perceives this as a hunger strike and plays out on the quality of bread.

[klazy]

klazy

Consider the moment that you can feed not all the melted sourdough, but some part of it. The excess can be stored in the refrigerator for up to 3 days and added to pancakes, pancakes or any yeast bread simply to improve crumb structure.
After storage at 10 *, I would not immediately use sourdough in bread either.The quality will suffer. You need to at least warm up to room temperature and feed at least once 1 to 2.

So, now you need to look for your own algorithm of actions, depending on the frequency of baking and the amount of starter required.

You will have to agree with the toad))

About adding soda - no, I have not tried it. There was no need to quench the acid with soda. It seems to me that this should affect the structure of the crumb.

Girls, your correspondence can be read as a novel with a sequel ...
In honor of the holidays, I looked at a lot of links about leavens. They write .... a lot, but not interesting, as for me. Of all my starter cultures, the thick French starter rose 3-4 times, as it should be. Then I transferred it to liquid, because it had an unpleasant smell. And since I was not yet very experienced in leavening, I grew a new one - grape.

[klazy]

klazy

I thought that there might not be anyone "in touch" when your melted sourdough grows 2 times and tightens plaintively: "Mom, mom, what should I do next?")) Therefore, let's kill two birds with one stone (reduce the amount of sourdough and do not send for storage not quite strong), let's do this:
as your "young woman" grows 2 times, take 50 g from it (we will not waste time on trifles at first), the rest - wherever you want These 50 g feed 50 g flour and 50 g water, leave it warm for 40 - hour minutes and send it for storage.
And even further - follow literally with a pencil in your hands and make notes - how long it takes for this very "storage" to double the leaven. From this moment on, it must be fed, cared for, cherished, used for its intended purpose and a convenient algorithm for one should be developed that does not contradict the desires and appetite of the leaven
Success

[Zest]

Girls, your correspondence can be read as a novel with a sequel ...

Yeah :))) Eustace - Alex "load oranges in barrels!"

Zest, thanks for such detailed answers, finally something starts to clear up in my head about the subject of leaven, hunger, not aunt and other geometric progressions ...
only, I'm afraid, my little orphan still could not stand the dull valley ... after rejuvenation, 4 hours passed, and she rose from only 150 to 180 ml ...
finita? start a new one?

the bread, by the way, turned out to be quite good, only the roof was torn ...

only, I'm afraid, my little orphan still could not stand the dull valley ... after rejuvenation, 4 hours passed, and she rose from only 150 to 180 ml ...
finita? start a new one?

why are you impatient to put up a cross on your leaven? She is lively. When softening in such high proportions, the leaven matures slowly (from 19 to 24 hours, depending on the strength), and this is what I often use to "shirk" feedings
And you must notice how much of yours is needed.

ah-ah ... Semyon Semyonitch !!! I thought that she would rise in a couple of hours as in previous times :))). Truly, live and learn ... (and die a fool, as usual :))

[Zest,]

Oh, Zest, got confused: where to feed, and where to rejuvenate?
Before baking - is it to feed or rejuvenate?

[Lenny]

Lenny

Actually, these are all very conventional designations. The main thing is to understand the principle. Breeding is essentially the same feeding, only in very high proportions. For myself, I conventionally call mixing a very small amount of sourdough with a large proportion of flour-water as "softening", and "tossing" the sourdough with fresh dough in a ratio of 1: 1 - 1: 3 - feeding. And what about the correct classification - I did not bother. Maybe it is somewhere in some textbooks on baking.

I see.
So, before baking, it is better in large proportions, and in storage in smaller proportions, or vice versa?

"The Tale of My Leaven"
Day one, in the morning:
took 100 gr. rye flour, 120 gr. water 40 *, 10 gr. malt
mixed and got a moderately soft lump:
I left it warm for 24 hours (I put it in a microwave that periodically warmed it up). By the end of the first day, the leaven was slightly swollen, inside it was loose.
Day two (morning):
took from her 110 gr. Added 110 gr.water 40 * and beat with a fork until foam is obtained:
added 110 gr. wheat flour 1c. and mixed:
leave it warm for 12 hours. The leaven began to increase and became fluffy.
Day two (evening): again 110 gr. starter cultures + 110 gr. water 40 * + 110 gr. wheat flour 1c, mixed, leave for 12 hours. At this stage, she froze, bubbles were observed inside, many but small.
Day three (morning):
did everything the same, and after 7 hours she stands as if enchanted. What am I doing wrong??? HELP PLEASE WHO CAN !!!!!!!!!!! Already I grow starter cultures (different) for more than 6 months and all to no avail !!! A bag of flour is probably already spoiled, even one of the experimental breads on the wrong leaven was poisoned! And so, too, I want a beautiful perforated bread !!!!!!!!!

I may say nonsense now, but I would try to add rye wallpaper flour, since you have been tormented for so long: to save, to save. Rye wallpaper is a reliable option, just do not give it a lot of heat: 35 degrees will be fine. I ruined my very first sourdough, putting it on the battery, it was gone - "burned out" one might say. But the second did not hurt with warmth - and I did it! Feed it with rye flour, and then transfer it to wheat flour, which has become stronger.
"Specialists"! Do not throw your slippers! I so want to help the girl!

Can I feed her right now (8,5 hours have passed since the last feeding) or still wait?

I think it's about time.

Thank you: - * I'll go feed for an hour!

7 hours have passed ... the leaven has doubled and continues to grow

And mine froze!

Kapeliya777, do not despair, all is not lost yet.

7 hours have passed ... the leaven has doubled and continues to grow

Congratulations)) Together they raised a super-strong monster. Did you crush 5 g of sourdough with 125 g of water and 125 g of flour? What is the temperature in the kitchen and what time was it grilled?

Stay tuned, let it reach its maximum))