Raisin sourdough, problems and tips

I take coarse wheat, and if it's the highest grade, then my sourdough doesn't rise too much, but liquefies and stratifies, so I try to combine it with some other. Girls seem to be of the highest grade, but I

and I didn’t wait for an answer and diluted the psh. a / c and hw. seeded! Well, it's good that I didn't throw out the rest, wait, I'll dilute with whole grain, I'll see what I can do in these two jars!

Can someone tell me, I have an old leaven, it makes bread wonderfully, but it was stored in the refrigerator, below 10 degrees! I read here that bacteria die and that's what I thought, is it really impossible to put them back in? I transferred this sourdough to the windowsill and now I added a little raisin sourdough to it (just a little), in the hope that these good bacteria will multiply there! Or am I mistaken?

[And now from myself.]

Can someone tell me, I have an old leaven, it makes bread wonderfully, but it was stored in the refrigerator, below 10 degrees! I read here that bacteria die and that's what I thought, is it really impossible to put them back in? I transferred this sourdough to the windowsill and now I added a little raisin sourdough to it (just a little), in the hope that these good bacteria will multiply there! Or am I mistaken?

I'm certainly not a starter specialist, but here are quotes from a specialist. From LJ Ludmila.
You store the sourdough in the refrigerator and all the ICBs have died there long ago, that is, there is no one to produce lactic acid and acetic acids there. Most of the comrades do not know that the starter culture cannot be stored in the refrigerator, because at low temperatures (below 10-15C) lactic acid bacteria die, but wild yeast does not. So it turns out that the bread will rise well (living yeast in sourdough) but it will not have the necessary% of acids for the elasticity of the crumb.

% acid in rye, and in white, is extremely important. This does not mean how sour the bread is TO THE TASTE, because lactic acid, for example, is not sour in taste and smell, but it is in the dough, and there should be a lot of it, and it modifies starch and gluten to an optimal state.

It is important that the leaven is able to fluff the dough 4 times in 5-6 hours at 25C. That is, so that it is approximately equal in strength to baker's yeast.
Those who keep the leaven in the refrigerator have no idea what a ferment is and how it smells and what it tastes like. The practice of storing starter culture in the refrigerator is so common among hobbyists / general public that it is considered normal. In fact, in such "frostbitten" starters, there are no LABs and only wild yeast is present. And what's the point in such a crippled leaven! After all, we immenno need ICD. It would be a matter of yeast, we would just use baking and that's it. Yeast is sold on every corner and does not give any taste to the products.
I have a special sourdough refrigerator, Lena. I set the temperature there at 11-12C. In a household refrigerator, such temperatures cannot be set, because then everything else will spoil - milk, sausages, etc.
If the wheat leaven is stored cool at room temperature, then during STORAGE, it is enough to refresh it once a day. Before USING the starter culture, you should refresh it 6-8 hours before use.
the sourdough is salted to slightly inhibit the activity of microorganisms. That is, there are two ways to feed the sourdough less often: instead of 1-4 times a day, 1-2 times a week. (1) You can reduce the storage temperature of the starter culture to 10C, or (2) add some salt to it.

If you store the starter culture at 10C, then there is no need to add some salt to it.And if you store it at 22C, then you need to salt it, otherwise the fermentation will be violent, the food reserves in the dough will quickly be depleted and the sourdough will need to be fed more often.
The starter culture can be kept in the refrigerator if you keep the temperature in the refrigerator at 8-10C. That is, this is a special refrigerator, in it T is like in a cellar.

In an ordinary home refrigerator, T is maintained at 0-4C, just so that milk does not sour and ferment, soup does not ferment, cheese, tomatoes are moldy, sausage does not turn green, etc. That is, in an ordinary refrigerator, the temperature is kept that kills bacteria , but we need to store the leaven at a cool temperature, when they are still living and multiplying, only more slowly.
Spoiled leaven
If the sourdough was stored in the refrigerator, no matter how you refresh it and with what you do not correct it, the normal sourdough will not work out of it. We need to bring out a new one.

The lactic acid bacteria that live in baking sourdough are not at all the types of bacteria that live in kefir or yogurt or yogurt. It is not for nothing that even these lactic acid products have completely different taste and aroma - different lactic acid bacteria!

There are hundreds of species of bacteria that produce lactic acid in nature, of which only 47 species have been found in baking sourdoughs in symbiosis with wild yeast. It will not work just to add them in their pure form to the already existing leaven, they will not survive there, they will die in the struggle for survival. The bacteria that are currently in the sourdough will always take over. In short, the spoiled leaven cannot be corrected, it is necessary to start a new one.
And now from myself.After reading all this, I also keep it in a special small refrigerator. The temperature there is 12-13 degrees. I don't really want beneficial microorganisms to die out.

Thanks, threw out the old sourdough! Now I put rye bread on the new one! Well skaw, I like the rye sourdough, it rises well and fast! Wheat flour with high-quality flour probably did not work out, it rises very badly, less than half! I decided to bake pancakes on it - sour! I can't imagine if you bake white bread on it, it won't be possible to eat it! Tell us what taste should the wheat raisin sourdough have?

I began to grow it a week ago and now I bake 3 loaves every day, somehow my hand does not rise to throw it out .... tell me, is it really like that for everyone ??? You just feed her and she rushes right away .... what to do then ?? True, neighbors and friends feel good, always tasty and fresh bar .... but I still add a little yeast .... when can I stop adding them ??
Py. Sy. and the bread is insanely fragrant and delicious !!!
Write someone where to put you can every day for 200g. sourdough ???
And who else tried to salt ???

[from LJ Ludmila.]

Here are some more helpful starter tips from LJ Ludmila.

To feed the sourdough less often, for example, once every 2-3 days, it is salted (2 g of salt per 100 g of fresh flour in the dressing).

the sourdough is salted to slightly inhibit the activity of microorganisms. That is, there are two ways to feed the sourdough less often: instead of 1-4 times a day, 1-2 times a week. (1) You can reduce the storage temperature of the starter culture to 10C, or (2) add some salt to it.

If you store the starter culture at 10C, then there is no need to add some salt to it. And if you store it at 22C, then you need to salt it, otherwise the fermentation will be vigorous, the food reserves in the dough will quickly deplete and the sourdough will need to be fed more often.

If you are really interested in a sourdough oven, find a way to store it at 10-15C in winter and summer. If you bake often, you can just keep it at room temperature and feed it every time you bake, and in between - add some salt to slow down the activity of microorganisms at room temperature.

you have there in the summer heat under forty is, here no salt will help tame the activity of yeast and LAB. It is necessary to either cool or feed / refresh every day.
I wrote about how to feed and store the leaven a few days ago. You said that you have no way to do this. In this case, I would focus on the ability to bake yeast bread on a wide variety of doughs, including cold ones.The bread turns out to be incredibly tasty, not inferior to sourdough bread in quality. Sourdough is absolutely necessary only if you are baking rye bread.
Sourdough is used as a source of organic acids and modified flour protein. Yeast - for loosening the dough, creating a special type of porosity, characteristic of certain products. Without yeast, on one sourdough, one proofing would take 5-8 hours, not to mention the time required for the dough to ferment.
Of course, it's a good question about "why yeast is needed." On the one hand, yes, the sourdough contains yeast, albeit thirteen biologically different species, different from baker's yeast. Generally referred to as "wild yeast," they produce different amounts of gas, eat different sugars, and are able to survive in acidic environments. On the other hand, the starter culture contains not only wild yeast but also lactic acid bacteria. ICBs are responsible for about 50% of the gas production in the dough during fermentation and proofing.

So why yeast if there is sourdough, or why sourdough if there is yeast. It all depends on the acidity of the dough. No matter how hard we try, the acidity of the sourdough dough will always be much higher than the acidity of the yeast dough.

When a little baker's yeast is added to the sourdough dough, this is done only in order to regulate the speed of proofing of the dough and increase the swelling of the volumes of products in the oven.

When sourdough is added to the yeast dough, this is done in order to accelerate the ripening of the dough and modify the flour proteins, improve the shelf life of products, eliminate bread spoilage (the sourdough "sterilizes the dough" from potato disease, mold spores, etc.), improve the nutritional properties of bread (sourdough modifies the bran in the dough and makes available nutrients in them), and the taste and aroma are improved due to the presence of various organic acids in the sourdough.

Not all products allow acidity, which will be obtained if the dough is prepared with only one leaven.

Push:
I put my "glutton" in the fruit compartment downstairs in the refrigerator. I set 10 degrees there. And then the other refrigerator made so much noise that I could not stand it. So I did not try salt. But you may need some advice.

I'll tell you about my successes: rye bread rose well and quickly, I am pleasantly surprised! The only time it is sour than the one I baked with the old sourdough from the bakery! But as a matter of fact, maybe the new starter culture, unlike the old one, is enriched with lactic acid bacteria, but I did not notice any better result! I think my new leaven may have fermented, that's why it's so sour! I will buy raisins again tomorrow and try again!

I can't do it with premium wheat flour! I have already made this leaven 4 times! (((Everything is fine on rye!

Why haven't there been any questions or comments for so long? do the old-timers no longer have this leaven?
prologue: after reading about all kinds of leavens, the confusion in my head is crazy ...

first I tried to "start" a yoghurt. everything seemed to be going well for the first 3 days, but then the whitish bloom appeared. besides, I have read that bacteria from dairy products are not suitable for bread. in general, the product went to the sink. but the topic is interesting, because the family needs 100% rye bread.
decided to try it with raisins. took not washed golden raisins, added rye flour and water, left for 3 days. only after the mass rose and became spongy, drained the flour slurry, added water and flour in approximately 1: 2 ratio. it turned out quite fluid. as a result, after 2 hours, I collected the fugitive in a locker. So that this does not happen again, I fed them to the state of "a little thicker than for pancakes." she stands on my windowsill. temperature not less than 20 C. 6th day, feed 1: 1 daily, knead thickly. the porosity is very high, the smell is pleasant, the taste is noticeably sour .... um ...... pleasant oh sour
but now it rises one and a half times, not higher. is it ok?

fed to the state "a little thicker than pancakes."

but now it rises one and a half times, not higher. is it ok?

For "slightly thicker than pancakes" this is quite normal. You yourself have already noticed that at different densities, the rise is different. So - it's time to arrange a test of the product, otherwise it eats for 6 days ..... ..... it's time to work.

For "slightly thicker than pancakes" this is quite normal. You yourself have already noticed that at different densities, the rise is different. So - it's time to arrange a test of the product, otherwise it eats for 6 days ..... ..... it's time to work.

Vicki, thanks for the consultation!
but in a thicker consistency, a bad rise is embarrassing. although she really feeds too long.
the other day I tried to use it.
mixed 300 gr. starter culture, 250 gr. rye flour, 50 gr. wheat premium, 1 tsp. salt, 2 tbsp. l. honey, 1 tbsp. l. liquid malt, 1 tsp. coriander, 200 ml. potato broth, 2-3 gr. pres. yeast.
kneaded, laid out in the form. in terms of volume, the dough took up half of that. in 4 hours it rose by about 1 cm, holes appeared on top.
baked for an hour at 200 C.
came out quite dense, with tiny holes, sticky crumb, the crust is noticeably hard.
And now questions, in fact, about the leaven. I immediately apologize for the stupid questions, but the "beast" is too outlandish.
judging by the result, it is not yet active enough for me and should I add more yeast to the baked goods? I want the crumb is not so clay-like. I will bake only rye bread.
it is kept on my windowsill. I feed it during the day, then it grows on the trail. the morning is already falling. how should the opal be fed immediately or can it be delayed?
read about other leavens. Roma wrote that there should be a period of rest. should we have it or is it an everyday perpetum mobile with feeding? (I don't have a refrigerator from 10 to 12 C, and I will live on the windowsill).

mother-in-law ordered simple rye bread she would know how "simple" it is. save

If you bake exclusively rye bread on it, then I would overfeed it into rye. Just replace the flour with rye and go. It should become active in 5 days, although .... active in three days, in five it is already "thermonuclear". BUT! When baking on young sourdough, I would refrain from potato broth in rye or wheat-rye bread, excess starch will interfere with the sourdough. As for me, it's better to take the serum and dilute it with water at least in half. And as the leaven grows stronger, there will be nothing for her.
I don’t even let my "little animals" fall, I doubled in volume, so we feed. And the rest period .... well, I don’t know .... if I have no rest, then I don’t give rest to the leaven.
And about salvation .... here you need to think. have ideas, but again questions arise: will we bake in the oven? And probably in shape?

Hurrah!!!
today she did it! rose 2 times and still has not fallen.
Yesterday I added some water after washing the raisins when feeding.
Vicki, so she's mixed with peeled rye flour. to be honest, I don't really understand why sourdough is needed in white bread. I don't like sourness in white at all, but I'm quite happy with my yeast.
however, today they should bring me whole wheat flour. can add ... to improve the lifting force in whole grain bread?

and there is still a question. if not on the topic and somewhere it has already been discussed, send it to the link, plz.
Let's say there is a recipe that consists of several steps.
Leaven:
35 g of ripe sourdough with 100% moisture
90 g water
150 g rye flour
wander for 8 hours.
then comes the dough recipe with kneading and fermentation time + bread molding and final proofing.
Is a full-fledged first stage necessary in our case? the leaven is fed all day long and is constantly active. I understand that the Sourdough stage is feeding and getting a certain weight of the sourdough, or am I wrong? that is, can I take the starter culture directly from the 275 g can and go straight to the dough stage?

I knead in a bread maker, bake in the oven. in it, at any moisture content of the dough, the "roof" of the bread does not fall, the shape in the form of a brick is assumed.
thank you so much for your patience!

Leaven:
35 g of ripe sourdough with 100% moisture
90 g water
150 g rye flour
wander for 8 hours.
can I take 275 g of sourdough directly from the jar and go straight to the dough stage?

Let's count:
35 gr. starter cultures with a moisture content of 100% is 17.5 gr. flour and 17.5 gr. water.
+ 90 gr. water = 107.5 grams of water
+150 gr. flour = 167.5 gr. flour
So you can take 215 grams from the can. sourdough (107.5 + 107.5), and add the remaining flour 60 gr to the main recipe. (167.5 - 107.5).
That's all the wisdom.

ooooooooooooooooooo! Finally, the calculation reached me !!!
I'll hang it on the fridge!
THANK YOU!

[Viki]

Viki I said goodbye to my sourdough, because I stored it incorrectly On the bottom shelf in the refrigerator, but the pies were very tasty, but why did I say goodbye to it ......... I had bad flour and, accordingly, the smell became simple sour meat ....... how much she lived with me for almost a year and a half, and now .............. so now, according to your recipe, I decided to make a leaven ... I have already had the second day, and it does not rise in any way and there are very few bubbles, you can say not at all, I fed her in the morning, of course ... then I put her in a warm place (the only one in the dryer), it's cold here, the bastards did not turn on the heating only in our entrance, maybe because of this it does not grow and does not rise in any way ... there is no movement at all, then it got a little crusty ... there is no such leavening smell, I will wait, or maybe go back to my Eternal, with which I started ???
I very painfully started to start the leaven, then it turned out of course, but now I am experiencing the moment when I could not, it’s already a shame ... but what to do next ??? Feed it once a day and wait until you get bored ??? Or just throw it away ??? I already wrote that it is cold in the apartment - 18C, there is nowhere to put it in a warm place

what to do next??? Feed it once a day and wait until you get bored ???

Feed and wait. Svetik, are you sorry for the torment? Let's wait. The process has already begun, so we will at least find out if it turns out at such a temperature. You look, and the heating will be turned on. Don't throw the animal away. And suddenly it will be hammered.

VIKUSYA ....... I, too, can not throw it away, I feel so sorry for them, that's why a Frenchwoman does not suit me, that I constantly need to feed and throw it away, I will wait a little, and tomorrow I will go to swear at the housing office

Vikus ... it's me again, well, it's already the fourth day, and the leaven doesn't want to rise ... this morning I had to feed it and forgot, ran to work, left it on the battery ... well, on the windowsill, at we are a little warm there, so there is no effect, I came to feed in the evening, and so when I fed, there were bubbles, but she herself does not rise, does not want to react in any way ... and most importantly there is no sour smell, maybe not my leaven ?? ? I somehow quickly tamed the Eternal .... but with this problem ???

Probably I will have to part with my leaven ... it will freeze with me, it is cold ... and I can’t think of anything

I will probably have to part with my leaven ...

It's a pity, of course ... Can you wait until the heating is turned on and all over again?

So the heating has already been turned on ... my temperature is everywhere 22C, and as I understand it to her ... it's cold ....... ............. batteries are lukewarm now, and what to do with it ??? Throw away ??? She is unlikely to go for pancakes

[Vikusya]

Vikusya I report ... I came home, and my beauty rose a little, because she put it near the battery, and there it was 24C, so she came to life, I think that if I don't bake bread until Saturday, what to clean up the loggia ??? (I have 17C there now), there is no more cool place, because it needs to be stored in a cool place, not lower than 10C, right ??? Later, closer to the weekend, I will feed her and put her into action
I followed the technology of the Eternal, but not according to the rules, I kept it in the refrigerator, and everything died before us, I want to try this one, I can try to bake bread in HP, entrust this business to her, so to speak, and put it on the longest program, but with the addition yeast, because the sourdough is young and the bread will not pick up until ........ I'm so kaatsa

Girls, tell me ...if there is no cool place in the apartment, everywhere there will be such a temperature for 20C, well, the truth is not winter yet, but still ......... can it be stored in the kitchen at this temperature ??? Will she just really run away ???

And on the windowsill at the glass what is the temperature. It seems to me just right for the leaven.

It is necessary to measure it ...... already in the morning, I just didn't feed her today, what should I do ?? Put in a jar ???

yeah

Girls ... in the morning she flooded ................ I put it in a jar, and the second large half in a liter jar, but how I felt I put goodness in a saucepan ... ........... ........ she had already kicked it out of the jar into a saucepan, on the loggia I had 17C in the morning ...... where to store it then while now it's warm outside ??? Damn ... now it's cold, now it's warm .......... well, thank God, my girl responded, you will probably have to bake at least pancakes or pancakes in the evening, and the rest of the portion will wait for the weekend

Svetik, I have watched the development of events with your raisin with anxiety and breath last week ... how good that everything worked out! I'm happy for you - I know from myself that growing ferment is a very emotional thing

Peki bread today! Why pull until the weekend? you give it as a gift, but you will see your leaven in action. But yeast needs to be added now, she has not yet gained her strength, she is young completely

[rinishek]

rinishek Thank you very much for the experience. I myself was very worried, I did not believe that I would have to leave ....... and she heard me, and the heating became a little better, in winter it is hot on my windowsill, ideal for sourdough, I had to survive ... I'll come home soon and I'll scrape it off the saucepan, where she so-so calmly ran away, chess say, this is the first time I have that leaven escapes from me
Do we have a recipe that you need to pump up all the leaven, and not 200g, I left myself for divorce, now she will sunbathe on the window
Or is it better to bake pancakes ??? Probably add 1 tsp. yeast, or is it bread ??? So while I come and put it on, there will be little time to get up ... and I will have a pancake

What to do ............ not nay

In any recipe, drink all the leaven, just count the water and flour.

Put all the leaven into the bread (and you have it ???), but the main thing is that you add flour no less by weight than the whole leaven. And add yeast, you still get delicious bread.
but actually a recipe with 400 g of sourdough is sieve, Zest wrote about it

I usually throw in all the sourdough, and then focus on the bun.

Well, judging by the fact that I fed her for four days with 100g + 100g of water ... 400 should be already, I will come and weigh ... a liter jar is waiting for me, well, maybe a little fell out, because my son he calmed her with a fork, okay, let's make bread, I'll give it to mom

Girls, here is my report on bread ................ ...... a little sourish on the scent, I know that she stood a little bit ....... I came home in the evening



I will not show the incision, because it is getting cold, of course I do not like the sourness in the dough, we will fight and bake more often (though I have not tried it, tomorrow we will see

Here is such a funny roof for me, under the bowl during the proofing there are such candelabra steel, the bun was obedient, so I calculated everything correctly, here the proofers are probably not enough

It is better to distribute without a bowl. I roll the blank abundantly in flour and cover it with a towel, cut it before baking. And so just handsome

And I adore this top, this is my favorite

[Summer resident]

Summer resident I didn't strain it in a bowl, I just formed it and in a cast-iron pan in a heated oven, and the bowl was covered on top, a kind of wok turned out

As for me, these are unnecessary troubles. Sprinkled water in front of the oven and forward.

[wallpaper]

Hello!
girls-raisins, please tell me, how can the sourdough smell change? I made a sourdough on heavy rye. usually she fed it, and yesterday fed it with rye wallpaper .
I opened it today, and the smell is very strange. it is usually pleasantly sour, but today ...... um ......... bitter-sour or something ... some mustard ... ... I don't even know how to describe it. she has already fallen, there is no mold, the taste is sour ....... but the smell is confusing.
dies? wallpaper failed? what to do?

py. sy. even in the last week she began to raise the dough more slowly. however, the result is stable - an increase of 2.5-3 times.

She just ate the wallpaper faster and slightly over-acidified. Nothing will happen to her, do not worry. Just knead thicker, so that the dough is wound on a fork and feed it with raisin water every two to three weeks. My raisin lives with me for the second year and everything is as good as new

Thank you, Summer Resident.
so what to do with it? just feed 1: 1?

and also, tell me what is the optimal amount of starter culture per 500 gr. flour in wheat bread so that the sourness is not felt? I hope I asked the question correctly.

Any starter culture you currently have should be used or discarded. Wash what remains on the walls of the jar with a small (approximately 50-70 ml) amount of water and knead it thicker.

200-250 grams of sourdough per 500 grams of flour does not give sourness in the finished bread

It is advisable to put sourdough in bread not at the peak, but when it doubles twice, then there will be no sourness in the dough.

thanks, I will throw it away.

I tried the French Raisin recipe with sourdough in a bread maker. there is 450 flour and 200 leaven. a very noticeable sourness turned out. I would even say that the bread turned out sour
sourdough peroxide?

I would like to draw your attention to the fact that the sourdough on rye flour is much more acidic than on wheat flour. I keep mine on wheat or whole grain and only before baking rye bread I feed part of the sourdough with rye.

thanks for the science!
how quickly does your leaven raise the bread?

It all depends on the ambient temperature. From two to four hours, and in the heat and for one and a half he changed

transferring mine to wheat, it's decided! Thank you.

Hello everyone!
For 2 years there has been a bread maker and for 1 year yeast breads were constantly and perfectly baked, but then I read about the dangers of yeast and decided to bake with sourdough.
how many trials were made to make your own sourdough - the fingers are no longer enough.
I left this bad business.
4 times I took the "eternal" leaven from a friend, and she was also dying at my house.
I decided that it was my energy and threw the idea. bought yeast-free bread in the store.
but recently I was drawn to try again. I read several recipes and really liked the raisin. only I am not a fan of white bread, I immediately decided on rye.

Yesterday I took the rest of the golden raisins, poured it with warm water, he stood there for about an hour, then I strained the water, sent it to the jar and added, as it was written, 200 grams of flour and 1.5 tsp. Sahara. it turned out to be a very thick porridge ...
I decided that nothing good would come of it and I had to put in 4 times less flour, put it in a cabinet near the radiator and went to bed.
just woke up - there. and she was "puffing" with might and main, got out of the can !!! smells really delicious.

girls, I re-read the whole Temko, but I did not understand, what to do next ???
here we were talking about 2 tablespoons, on them 100 grams of flour and water and ferment again.
and what to do with the bulk?

please, for those new to this business - write in detail - what to do next.
I have 300 grams of starter culture 1 day + 2 tables. spoons + 100 grams of water / flour (set to ferment further).
who to feed, how to feed, how to bake. from which part, etc.?
thank you very much!