zakvaska
for the future, tell me please, should she not smell sour at all? or will it be a little bit?
The main thing is not to smell like vinegar or silage or alcohol. Should smell: from the faint smell of rye bread to soaked apples - this smell is normal, everything else
Zefirka
Yesterday I baked bread with this leaven.
I will not give the recipe, it is simple: approximately equal shares of rye and wheat flour, wheat and barley bran.
The bread turned out to be very tasty and beautiful: ruddy, spongy, slightly sour and fragrant.
But the upper crust "let us down". Opal by about 1.5 cm and turned out pale.
I will work out the recipe further.
I think that I was mistaken in that the dough piece took a long time to stand. I kneaded the dough on the Pizza setting, then took out the spatula and set the French bread setting on the timer, that is, for 8 hours. Since the evening. To wake up at 7 am to the aroma of baked bread.
The dough began to rise so quickly and briskly that I thought: would it come out of the bucket ...

At night, she could not bear it and looked: and the top fell noticeably.

My (preliminary) conclusions.
Repeat everything. But do not pull out the spatula, but bake in regular French.
Zefirka
Forgot the main thing: thank you very much Luke for the sourdough recipe and detailed explanations.
I am a beginner baker, but thanks to the forum and its experienced specialists, I am making progress. Surprisingly so.
I have not yet reached the other sourdough cultures, but my jar of kefir is getting old already.
luchok
I read about all sorts of leavens, and I wanted a little black bread, put three leavens at once - yeast, kefir and eternal. Yeast turned out, the next day after the sourdough, I made a small loaf for testing according to the "Classic rye" recipe - everything worked out superb, everyone liked the bread. So we finished it, three days have passed, I would like to try other options, but my other two starter cultures are silent, well, there are small bubbles, but they do not grow at all, although today is the fourth feeding: (and what to do? -Not clear. warm, everything is fine. Tell me something pliz
ilia-ru
Well, the classic problems are few
Check:
1. flour. it must NOT be of the highest grade. I tried it on rye "peeled" and wheat of the 2nd grade.
2. temperature. 1 day - 30-35C. Much higher is also undesirable. Please note that your body temperature is 36.6C (well, as a rule). Therefore, the correct temperature of the sourdough will not seem too warm or, moreover, hot. (2nd and 3rd day - 20-22C)
3. Water - the consistency of the sourdough should be - like 20% sour cream. Moreover, according to my experiments, it is better thinner than thicker. I never understood why to cook soup in which a spoon is not worth it. But apparently the leaven has its own opinion
4. Do you feed her on time? Her stages are as follows: fed, there are few bubbles; then she "boils", then ate everything and again there are few bubbles. The first and last stages are pretty similar. If you "missed" boiling, then you will not distinguish.
Well, that's probably all. If you put "yes" on all items, then I don't know. Perhaps someone wise will tell you something else.
luchok
Thank you very much for your answer. It took my sourdough a little longer than it says in the recipe. Kefirnaya worked for me on the 5th day, but now it is bubbling even in the refrigerator. And I really liked the bread on it.
Beginners, don't give up if something doesn't work out !!!
Everyone has doubts, but when you get the result, it's so nice
NatalyaN
Tell me, again a negative experience in growing sourdough.
The first time, 50 g of rye flour and 50 ml of water, stood warm - weakly, but bubbled. On the second day, everything is the same, but the result - rose 3 times, opal - I think everything is great, but I did not feed her right away after she fell (maybe this is my fault?).For the third time I have already fed 100 g of flour and 100 ml of water - the result is SILENCE, small bubbles, did not rise, the smell is sour, though there is no gray or gray plaque, but it’s too dumb to use it, although I fed it again. Tell me what to do with it next.
murza
Hello everyone! I want to share with everyone my little experience of communication with leavens. How did it all start? Yes, with dissatisfaction with the received rye bread on dry yeast in a bread machine. I started looking for it and came across a leaven and, as always, realized that everything ingenious is simple !!! Today I have already baked the second bread, which turned out to be twice as large as the first one, exclusively on rye flour. I want to put here an excerpt I read on another site, I hope the authors will not be offended, I think it is very important for understanding the CREATION of the leaven:
Our daily bread. Part one.

It will be a long conversation - a conversation about bread. When I think of bread, then
I remember my profession, because only in thinking about homeopathy I
find the same deep symbolic connection between the material and the spiritual,
not theoretical and abstract, but simple, intelligible and definite, which has become
small facts. This is how music is written in notes, this is how feelings are expressed
hormonal background, so the microflora becomes the carrier of meanings.

Nobody needs to explain the symbolic meaning of bread - and if someone is
it is necessary to explain, then the real post is not worth reading, because it does not
self-evident things will be explained. In the end, even on
intuitively, we all understand the connection between bread and home, between
fermentation and the creation of a new life, between a woman's ability to create dough and
female maturity (note, by the way, in the margins the verb "create"). But there is
all these are some circumstances that are not known to everyone.
Note, first of all, that the so-called yeast, namely Saccharamyces
cerevisae were isolated and cultivated about 150 years ago, in
the infamous 19th century, which disfigured so much
many aspects of human life. The main purpose of industrial
yeast production was, as always, acceleration - long cycle,
needed full bread, did not suit the then rush, who
I wanted to ferment the flour unnaturally quickly and speed up the process to
one hour. Haste, as you know, is appropriate only when catching fleas,
therefore the great improvement ended very sadly, although
discovered this only a hundred years later.

Why is yeast bad?
It would be easier to ask what they are good for, except that they cause fermentation.
First of all, yeast is just one out of dozens of microorganisms,
who should participate in baking bread. And each of these
microorganisms have a role to play in fermenting the dough. The thing is that
raw flour is not very suitable for eating, it should be in
digested to a large extent by a variety of bacteria and fungi before
how it gets into our stomach. These are various types of yeast, and
acidophilic flora, and many other microorganisms. On such
flour processing takes time, usually quite long.

I will give just two examples from many possible ones. Everyone knows that
wheat bran stimulates intestinal peristalsis and rescues from constipation,
but not everyone knows that they are abrasive and can cause
chronic inflammation of the intestines with constant use precisely due to
its ability to stimulate the mucous membrane. When fermenting dough
with the help of all the necessary microflora, the bran lose their abrasive
properties and cease to lead to inflammation. This is not possible, unfortunately,
talk about an hour-long process in which only yeast is involved.

Wheat flour contains phytic acid, as we all know, and
phytic acid causes anemia, indigestion and nervous
diseases. What happens to her during fermentation?

Everything is quite predictable: a truncated cycle that takes place with the participation of only
yeast, retains 90% of the harmful substance, and full fermentation with
the participation of various microorganisms destroys 100% of phytic acid.

I will not go into all the details and mention the minerals that
released during natural fermentation, the breakdown of complex
carbohydrates and so on.

Let's take a look at the symbolic side of what is happening. Dough that
the mistress of the house creates, refuses to be full-fledged in industrial
replicated yeast fed with chemicals (note in the fields that
this yeast is extremely allergenic), because it is devoid of individuality and
too hastily fermented. No process in the world can happen
faster than it was conceived from above, and if it happens faster, then this
inevitably leads to a loss of quality and meaning - this is one of the sides
happening.

The other side is even more interesting.
The natural leaven, on which bread was baked for centuries, did not come from
some abstract sterile industrial place, she wandered and
matured on the microflora of this particular house and no other. So
the family received bread baked with their own bacteria and
fungi that carry information about the inhabitants of the house, its atmosphere, its properties,
that is, the bread that was truly the daily bread of this house and this family.
In the light of information theory, say in the fields, the exchange of microflora in general
plays the role of a bringing together factor - it is not in vain that we disdain to drink from one
glasses with a stranger and do not disdain with a friend, despite the fact that with a logical
point of view, a friend has exactly the same chances of being sick as
stranger. It is not in vain that the deepest intimacy between people implies
free exchange of body fluids. Not in vain disgust towards
body secretions seem synonymous with emotional distance.

It's high time to abandon the theory that dictates our disgust for
bacteria, and understand that human symbiosis with microflora is inevitable and
an extremely curious phenomenon, and many microorganisms carry the sea about us
information and quietly transmit it to the outside world or return it to us
by ourselves. Our microflora is us, these are our fingerprints. And bread
who ascended on it is our bread, this is flesh of flesh returning to
flesh.

Our daily bread. Part two.

In continuation of this post and by popular request of the most venerable
to the public, I decided to write about baking bread with homemade sourdough.

For both the leaven and the bread itself, it is important to use the highest quality
products. Wheat flour must be 100% whole grain, from organically
grown wheat, cold milled. No chemicals in wheat and
cold milling ensures that everything remains in the wheat flour
essential enzymes. In Israel, flour meets these requirements.
company "& # 1488; & # 1491; & # 1502; & # 1492;".

Don't put flour in the freezer - you will kill it! If you observe kosher, then
you know that halakha requires sifting flour so that it does not get into food
insects, but you may not know that attempts to deceive halakha with
freezers absolutely do not give anything - you still need flour
sift even if there are definitely no bugs in it, because
sifting enriches it with oxygen. In addition, during the manufacture
sourdough, and when kneading bread, flour and water should be warm, slightly
warmer than room temperature. The water should also not be chlorinated and
fluoridated - use regular bottled spring water.

1. Making a starter culture.

Sift half a glass of flour into a ceramic, glass or wooden bowl
and pour half a glass of water. Stir with a wooden spoon, cover
cotton or linen napkin and put in warm and well
ventilated place. If the temperature in the house is around 25-35
degrees, then any clean place will do. Leave for three days
stir daily. Pay attention to the materials from which you should
utensils to be made - contact with metal or plastic is unacceptable.

During these three days, the leaven must ferment - on its surface
foam or at least individual bubbles may appear, the smell should
change to yeast or fermented milk, but not putrid (if the smell
unpleasant or mold appears, then the leaven must be mercilessly poured out).
When the starter is ready, pour it into a glass jar with glass
lid and refrigerate.

From now on, the leaven does not require any maintenance, except weekly
feeding. 6-8 hours before baking bread, it must be removed from the refrigerator and
feed - add about half a glass of flour and water and leave to ferment
warm without a lid, covered with a napkin. This can be done directly at the bank, in
which the leaven lives. If you do not intend to bake bread this week, then
let the sourdough ferment and then pour in about a glass of liquid. If
you leave and cannot feed the starter, then it can be frozen for weeks
for three, then let her thaw and feed. If this procedure can be
avoid, then I would not advise freezing.

2. Baking bread.

Six to eight hours before kneading the bread, feed the sourdough and leave in
warm place. Remember that all proportions given here are valid for
my starter culture, but completely different yeast and
bacteria, so look at early attempts at baking bread as an experiment
and familiarity with the character of your own leaven, don't expect success with
the first time (although it is not excluded).

In a glass, ceramic, or wooden dough, combine about
a quarter glass of sourdough, a glass of spring water slightly warmer than room water
temperature and begin to gradually sift flour there, which is also not
should be cold. Stir with a wooden spoon while still
kneads the dough, and then knead with your hands. You need to add about three
glasses of flour. The dough should not stick to your hands, it should be very
elastic. Cover it with a cotton towel and leave it warm
place for two hours. It should increase slightly in volume.

After two hours, knead the dough, add quite a bit of sourdough, about
half a teaspoon of salt and any additives if you plan to
add (nuts, seeds, fried onions, dried tomatoes, fresh sage and
etc. - the scope for imagination is almost limitless). Form two
small or one large loaf - if it's challah, then braid the dough - and
place in a dish, previously oiled and dusted with flour.
Make a few cuts on the loaf and brush the top with oil. Can
lightly dampen the napkin with which you are covering the bread. Leave the dough for 4-6
hours (my sourdough lasts about 4.5 hours). The bread must be very strong
increase in volume. Attention! Do not use a Teflon mold! More
all heat-resistant glass is suitable for bread.

After 4-6 hours, put the bread in a cold oven and turn it on at 220
degrees. Put some dish in the oven with the bread,
preferably a large diameter, filled with boiling water - you need
so that the water begins to evaporate from the first minute of baking. In 15 minutes
lower the temperature to 180 degrees and bake the bread for 45 minutes.
Cover hot bread with a damp cloth and let cool completely.

Bread made with natural sourdough should be quite heavy and
slightly sour, it should not be too airy or too sour -
if so, then you need to reduce the amount of leaven and the fermentation time.
Too sour bread is unhealthy; it contains acetic acid.
Good bread usually has a very hard crust and a strong smell - pleasant
and fragrant. You can serve homemade bread with freshly beaten butter,
herbs, zaatar and dried tomatoes with thyme in olive oil, with
labane, tahini and olives, with hummus, goat or sheep cheese and
slices of tomato.

Once again I apologize for the volume! Now I want to add my observations.
I immediately put two sourdoughs from rye and wheat flour, not knowing then that it seemed like nothing would work on refined flour. I put the leaven in two clay pots to create a natural environment, because the pots breathe and self-regulate the temperature. Surprisingly, both sourdoughs worked with the difference that rye was more violent and voluminous. When the leaven is warm, I cover it with a wet towel, and put it in the refrigerator, covering it with a clay lid. I stir it with an exclusively wooden stick. I give the leaven to the children, they conjure over it, wave their hands and tell her how good and tasty it is. I mix the bread on the program with yeast dough, with the difference that first I add water, honey, flour, and after half an hour, salt and oil (always different, olive, mustard, pumpkin ...) And I also add handmade malt to it ... I don’t know if it’s possible to call it real, but I do it like that. I buy sprouted grain in a store (wheat) for two hours in the oven at a temperature of 40 degrees, then I give 8 hours of rest and dry it at a temperature of 70 degrees to a solid state, then grind it as much as necessary and add it to the bread every other day ... smells !!! This is an amazing smell. The smell of a newborn baby. This is how bread is born to me. And today is the beginning of the olive oil ... I took out a wheat leaven, fed it for the night in the morning and put a dough on it. And now a stack of amazing pancakes is smoking on the table.
One of the most important components in baking and in life is love! Love! And happy holidays !!!
ilia-ru
murza, REPEAT and EXPERT !!!
And even if no one knows what Love is, but it seems that it is she who moves the world
For those interested, I can advise you to learn more about water. Japanese Masaru Emoto writes about this.
MariV
murza,
Yes, there is a lot of useful information - but, mind you, this forum is non-confessional and multinational - no need to talk about halakha! I think there are many specialized forums where it will be interesting for someone, about kashrut and halakha.
Alice
I decided to get my own leaven too. The day is standing, feeding, the second is, again feeding. There were some bubbles, but not large and it did not rise higher than a cm. No, I think I feel sorry for you, my friend, throw it away, I will continue to feed. In general, I fed her for a week, my glutton. The smell became sour. That's it, enough to feed, it's time to bake bread. I put rye bread, the composition is as follows:
1.5 cups wheat flour
1 cup rye flour
1 glass of leaven (I have it on rye flour and water)
1 tsp salt
1 tbsp. l. Sahara
2 tbsp. l. vegetable oil.
French mode - 6 hours.
The dough was kneaded liquid, I added 2 tbsp. l. wheat flour.
It's still watery, but I didn't add any more flour.
The crust after baking is all cracked, but rose well. Bread with a characteristic sourness, porous, does not crumble. Parents liked it, they said that this bread is from their childhood, as grandmothers baked in the village
nessy
I read how people suffer with sourdough - no one says that the flour should be changed - maybe that's the point. When I first tried to grow sourdough, I also could not understand why it was not working.
The first experience in growing "eternal" sourdough was from rye wallpaper shop flourpackaged in 2 kg - I don't remember the manufacturer. It was very fine and uniform, like the highest grade. Two times I tried to start from scratch (once a week and a half I fed, transferred a bunch of flour) - always unsuccessfully... It rises very slowly and somehow bubbles - such a homogeneous dead porridge. In general, I never tried to bake sourdough bread at that time.
Then I bought 50 kg bag of Altai rye flour (in my opinion, whole, because particles of different sizes and not all are sieved) and everything worked out the first time! From the first generation baked "Yeast-free rye bread on dough"From the Radio Operator. Tired of guarding the rise, I was afraid that it would not work out. But the bread rose - the pores inside were evenly distributed. In my opinion, it turned out sour and could still be baked, but quite tolerable. I sin that the leaven is the first ...
I made the leaven according to Luka's recipe, did not pay attention to the heat - all the time I stood on the radiator on a cardboard box (we don't heat much, it is always cool in our apartment). Now, before use, I take it out of the refrigerator, sometimes without even feeding it (depending on which "hat" is), I immediately put it in the heat - it rises and bubbles perfectly.
Now I want to try to add more leaven, otherwise there is too much left. I read on the forum that you can take about 1/4 of the leaven for the entire amount of flour.
And I want to learn how to make rye with sourdough malt - it turns out very dense with yeast.
So it is not possible that you are not doing something wrong - but the source material is not suitable. Go for it!
Natala
And I got the sourdough the first time, It did not bubble on top and does not bubble, but it is all bubbly inside

now another problem
How to stop growth?? In the refrigerator, it continues to grow and climbs out of the can (I put a little less than 400 ml in 0.5 liters)

How else can you store it? Somewhere on the forum I read that you can freeze, but I can't find it.

Tell me, if it's not difficult!
I am very pleased with the leaven. Thank you HUGE FOR THE RECIPE. Dough rises right before our eyes, in 1:25 it is already ready. I just overdid it a little with flour, it's still difficult for me, I'm not used to the machine interfering.

IMG_23031.jpg
"Eternal" leaven
IMG_23041.jpg
"Eternal" leaven
himichka
Pour the starter culture into a larger container. I don't store much leaven. When I'm going to bake bread, I feed it in the right proportion, let it grow into a dough. For 5 months I had several starters, until I, like everyone who constantly bakes with sourdough, left one grape. And so, my dear, I feed her with what I need at the moment: rye, whole grain or wheat flour. The remains are eaten by the dog in the form of porridge with sourdough. Poor dog!
Natala
So it seems like I tried to make only the required volume. Thank you. I'll try!
Before that, she used hop and this was not, she is more capricious and more debt in work
ilia-ru
I don't have a dog, so I pour the excess into the sink.
I feed her 2 times a day and, if a lot has accumulated, then I pour it out before feeding. But, since I bake about every 2 days, not very much pours out.
I tried to put it in the refrigerator, but it's cold there and she doesn't live
Lana
Quote: Aglo

Gennadii here he told horror stories about the refrigerator ... In life, everything is much simpler.
For example, here is the leaven that I use to bake rye bread.
1 cup rye flour + 1 spoonful of sugar + 2 tsp. yeast,
Water until liquid dough, Exposed for 18 hours in a warm place, and then put into the refrigerator until full use.

Mix rye flour and water in a glass (better) or plastic jar with a lid until the consistency of sour cream. Add yeast and sugar. Stir and leave overnight or more on the table. Then the next day, use as much as you need according to the prescription, and put the rest in the refrigerator until next time. When the starter culture is reduced to about 1/3 of the original volume, add another half-cup - a cup of flour and a little water, leave overnight, then put in the refrigerator.
You are using NOT ZAKVASK, but OPARA (!), Uv. !
LightOdessa
Gennadii told horror stories about the refrigerator here ... In life, everything is much simpler.
For example, here is the leaven that I use to bake rye bread.
1 cup rye flour + 1 spoonful of sugar + 2 tsp. yeast,
Water until liquid dough, Exposed for 18 hours in a warm place, and then put into the refrigerator until full use.



I don’t understand why the sourdough should be grown on yeast, because the principle of using the sourdough is yeast-free baking !!!
Viki
Quote: SvetaOdessa

I don’t understand why the sourdough should be grown on yeast, because the principle of using the sourdough is yeast-free baking !!!
But no! Any starter culture is yeast bacteria + lactic acid bacteria. And everyone chooses to use ordinary yeast or "wild" for himself.
Zest
Moreover, the principle of using industrial yeast at the beginning of growing the starter culture is not so rarely used. They help to activate the process, but they themselves subsequently die out under the influence of "wild" yeast, and no trace remains))
LightOdessa
"I know that I know nothing ..."
Lana
Quote: Zest

Moreover, the principle of using industrial yeast at the beginning of growing the starter culture is not so rarely used. They help to activate the process, but they themselves subsequently die out under the influence of "wild" yeast, and no trace remains))
Hello dear bakers! Correct me if I'm wrong: there is a GAME OF WORDS - dough - leaven! In other words: dough is leaven! Right ? In my refrigerator there is "Eternal leaven", that is, "Eternal dough" ... in which production yeast is eventually replaced by "wild". Yours faithfully
Zest
The line separating the leaven from the dough is very conditional, but it is still there.

Leaven - a composition that causes fermentation, in a narrower sense - any organic substance, the introduction of which into the food environment causes the fermentation process.

"Opara Is a fermented dough seasoned with yeast or sourdough. "

Sourdough dough is, in essence, always sponge dough.

Now about the essence of the difference between leaven and dough.

At the beginning of the process of growing sourdough in it, about forty species of IBC and more than a dozen species of wild yeast start a war. By the end of this process, the strongest ones survive and create a certain symbiosis in the finished sourdough - only two or three types of MK bacteria and wild yeast, which will determine the performance characteristics of your particular sourdough (lifting force, aroma, etc.). Even by growing several starters according to the same recipe, you can get starters of different quality. After a stable symbiosis of microorganisms has been established in the leaven, it can remain stable for many months and years (subject to proper storage and feeding), no microorganisms "from the outside" will take root here, they will be doomed to displacement and extinction. Lactic acid bacteria and wild yeast will constantly sterilize the ferment from unwanted microbes, releasing alcohol, as well as acetic and lactic acid during its fermentation. A real little world that protects itself from outside intrusions!

The sourdough is used as a source of organic acids and modified flour protein.

Bezoparnoe dough is the most deprived in this sense, it lacks taste and aroma, products from such dough quickly stale.

Sponge dough is a completely different song, with a deep taste and aroma, products from it do not stale much longer. And all thanks to the fact that they contain 2 times more organic acids.

A ripe starter culture (which has risen to its peak of growth) contains 20 times more various organic acids, and an acidic concentrated starter culture (the one that is allowed to mature after about 12 hours after aging) - even more. Therefore, the addition of these starter cultures can greatly improve the quality of the dough-free dough.

Happy owners of sourdoughs have a huge advantage over "horseless" housewives - the opportunity to take ripe sourdough instead of dough in sponge dough at any time, and add the peroxidized sourdough to the safe dough, resulting in aromatic, tasty, long-lasting products.

So I would conclude that sourdough differs from dough by a higher concentration of organic acids and their diversity, as well as by the stability of the resulting symbiosis of microorganisms... We can easily replace the dough with sourdough, but on the contrary, it is already quite problematic. Rather, it is not problematic, but will require some work on growing sourdough-based sourdough.

: -XOh, I didn’t want to write for so long, but in the process of answering, it became interesting to understand the differences between leaven and dough.

What is specifically in your refrigerator, I will not undertake to classify. Essentially, it should be leaven. But I do not know at what temperature it is stored with you, and what changes have occurred in connection with this (if the temperature is below + 10 *, then all the MK bacteria have died out, only wild yeast remained to multiply. But they, in turn , have long supplanted the production "cultivated" yeast, which could not withstand the aggression of the "wild"). Starter cultures that are stored in the refrigerator are always deprived in terms of MC bacteria and a variety of organic acids. They do not impart to products the same deep bread aroma and taste as the leavens, which are fed and stored according to all the rules of art.

I ask you to take into account the moment that I am not a microbiologist, and I try to draw all conclusions from the point of view of the rudiments of knowledge on this subject and elementary logic
Lana
Thank you, Zest, I think I understood your answer. Thank you publicly and to the administration! : flowers: And, if possible, very briefly: in what conditions should the starter be stored correctly (light and temperature). I have it on the top shelf of a 2-compartment refrigerator (about 12 * I think!). Thanks again for your answer
MariV
Zest, but why be shy?
Almost everything is correct! I just now interrogated two very scientific and microbiological ladies from Moscow State University with a passion about lactic acid bacteria and "wild" yeast. They told me, in short, as far as the time between the pairs allowed, they explained almost the same thing!
Admin

Girls, agree with everything and disagree because of their well-read on this information.

I'll be ready to speak - let me know

Only a big wish to everyone - let's talk personally about each individual sourdough and in different topics.

We will not be able to bring all the leavens of our members of the forum to a common denominator for many reasons.

Zest
Quote: lana7386

Thank you, Zest, I think I understood your answer. Thank you publicly and to the administration! : flowers: And, if possible, very briefly: in what conditions should the starter be stored correctly (light and temperature). I have it on the top shelf of a 2-compartment refrigerator (about 12 * I think!). Thanks again for your answer

It's good if my answer will help you in your further communication with leaven
12 * C is a very good storage temperature, it eliminates the need for daily feeding, and MK bacteria retain their viability.
Regarding illumination ... I think that for a leaven, as for any living organism, light is needed. I now also store the leaven without lighting in the cellar, but when feeding, I must leave it in daylight for 1-2 hours. So far, this is enough to preserve vitality.

Quote: MariV

I just now interrogated two very scientific and microbiological ladies from Moscow State University with a passion about lactic acid bacteria and "wild" yeast. They told me, in short, as far as the time between pairs allowed, they explained almost the same thing!
Still, it is very interesting to know what else the "scientific-microbiological" ladies told you about? Please add

Quote: Admin


Only a big wish to everyone - let's speak personally about each individual leaven and in different topics.

We will not be able to bring all the leavens of our members of the forum to a common denominator for many reasons.

In my post, it was about the general processes that occur in all leavens without exception. This information cannot be attributed only to any particular leaven.
Tell us where to go with this discussion and we will do it with great pleasure.

Lana
Admin, good afternoon! I bow before your erudition and erudition on this issue! Thanks for attention . I will wait for messages from you about the ETERNAL leaven! Yours faithfully
Admin

Girls, on general issues we have a topic - Leavens in questions, answers
https://Mcooker-enn.tomathouse.com/index.php@option=com_smf&topic=3704.390

It seems to me that in this topic we can talk about all the general properties of starter cultures without affecting the interests of lovers of personal starter cultures.

MariV
Quote: Zest

Still, it is very interesting to know what else the "scientific and microbiological" ladies told you about? Please add
Very short? "And we don't eat bread at all!"
Admin
I really asked everyone to go to the topic by link

In this topic, this is already a flood related to the topic of Heart-to-heart conversations ...
Zest
nope, I will not squander my goods. I'll take my post in Bake in leaven in the spirit (we now have it, too, "for general discussions"), at least I can find it there if I have a second question on the same topic.
Then I leave this topic and no longer do the flood

MariV
If you don't mind, let's go here https://Mcooker-enn.tomathouse.com/index.php@option=com_smf&topic=9229.390, it’s still terribly interesting to hear what the ladies said about the processes, and not just their taste preferences
irina55
Luca thanks for the "eternal" leaven, here is my favorite recipe from it:
https://Mcooker-enn.tomathouse.com/index.php@option=com_smf&topic=12121.0

P5255253.JPG
"Eternal" leaven
Midnight lady
Dear bakers! I brought you many thanks for your help, advice, valuable information! Today I baked my first sourdough bread (not a gram of yeast), and this is on a young, just grown "eternal" leaven. Here he is

Eternal leaven

Now it is cooling down, we will try in the evening, if I can, I will take a photo in a section. Unfortunately, it was not possible to photograph the crust in close-up. She is covered in small bubbles, so beautiful. Indeed, when baking bread, the aroma is completely different compared to yeast: it is more subtle, perhaps, unobtrusive, pleasant. Thanks again!
Zest
Midnight lady

bake for good health))
Midnight lady
Here is such a piece of bread.

Eternal leaven

In my opinion, the crumb is not quite uniform - it is denser at the bottom. I'm trying to find the reason. There is an assumption that the bun was too dense, the amount of flour should be reduced (here 135 ml of "eternal" sourdough, 430 g of wheat flour of the 1st grade and 60 g of oatmeal, that is, roughly speaking, wheat-rye bread is obtained). This was the dough immediately after the end of the kneading.

Eternal leaven
Or maybe the leaven isn't very strong yet.
Zest
Midnight lady

And how did you make this bread - within the framework of some standard program or manually turned it on and off, and then put it on the Baking?

The gingerbread man in the photo is quite decent, but judging by the crumb of the bread, it seems that the bread did not have enough time to prove it. He still wanted to get up, but baking began. The dough is limited on all sides by the shape, the top feels most at ease. So she rushed up, nothing bothers her, and the lower layers were crushed by weight and limited in the ability to maneuver
Therefore, it turns out much better if you distribute the dough in one form, and transplant it for baking into another, freer in volume, so that the dough has room for growth. But this is when baking in the oven.
And here it is necessary to "catch" the moment when the bread is finished.
Midnight lady
Zest, thanks for your feedback. I made bread like that. All the ingredients according to the recipe "Bread on" eternal "leaven from flour of the 1st grade" were poured into a bucket of HP and turned on the "dough" mode. It's 1:30. Then she turned off the HP and left it overnight, more precisely for 8 hours. During this time, the dough increased by about 2.5 times, 1 cm was missing to the top of the bucket. Then she turned on baking. I think maybe the dough was not hot enough for normal proofing.
The bread turned out to be slightly sour, but quite noticeable, maybe this confirms that there was not enough temperature?
I also wanted to ask why many bakers recommend adding salt and butter to sourdough dough during the second batch, and not the first.What does this affect?
Zest
Midnight lady

For 8 hours they left for proofing ??? This is sooo much. I do not know the strength of your leaven, but a French woman would have processed all the dough overnight into a dough.
It's also good that it turned out with a slight sourness, after such a long proofing it could become sour at all. And the protein of flour for such a long time under the influence of enzymes and sourdough acids is destroyed ...
If the proofing was at room temperature, then no higher temperature is needed.
It turns out that your leaven has not yet matured properly.
Well, it sounds abnormal to me - to leave for the rise for 8 hours. I'm used to a fast French woman.
Nooo, here it is necessary to attract people who baked on "eternal", I personally do not know her, does she really swing so long at work?

And butter and salt is added later, so as not to interfere with the flour normally absorb water, swell and form good gluten.
Midnight lady
Zest, my starter culture is really young, just grown. This was my unplanned experiment with sourdough baking. It ripened so quickly that I had to knead the dough at night and leave it for proofing at room temperature. From now on I will do it differently. So I'm thinking of trying some of your recipes for HP. And it is very inconvenient for me to add salt later, because I always dissolve the salt in the liquid, otherwise it will scratch the bucket. Now I will decide what to do. Thanks for the help.
Midnight lady
I was already beginning to get disappointed in my leaven, or rather in the taste of the bread made with it. For me (and for my husband) it turns out too sour. The sourness of wheat-rye bread turned out to be quite acceptable (this is the one that I defended the whole night - about 10 hours). But in wheat bread, sourness, in my opinion, is not appropriate. But after all, people even bake cakes with their own sourdough, so either there is sourdough that does not give sourness, or somehow they know how to bake sourdough without sourness? Maybe it's not the sourdough, but the dough preparation technology. I ask very much advice from experienced bakers.
This is how I prepare the dough.
I feed the leaven. For the first and second loaves I fed in a 1: 2 ratio with a mixture of peeled rye and wheat flour of the 1st grade. For the last bread, the leaven was ground -16 g of leaven + 72 g of water + 72 g of wheat flour. For 8 hours the leaven doubled and began to fall off. As soon as it began to fall off, I mixed a dough on it: 150 g of sourdough, 212 g of whey, 212 g of wheat flour of the 1st grade.
When the dough doubled, I kneaded the dough (according to the Italian recipe from Admin, only added oatmeal, raisins, dried apricots, the rest of the premium flour "Aleika") Vegetable oil was added not immediately - before tossing the dried fruits. The program "French bread" for me is 3:35, after the first kneading I took off the dough mixer, laid it neatly, after 30 minutes I made cuts, smeared it with water and starch (otherwise the crust turned out white, but this was only in sourdough bread, there was always a crust on yeast according to the exhibited), sprinkled with poppy seeds. I took it out when I was ready, I did not increase the time for proofing. Here is a photo of the bread

Eternal leaven
Eternal leaven

Moreover, in this bread when you eat sourness is not felt, but it is impossible to get rid of the sour aftertaste. Really have to go back to yeast.
irina55
I never did it with sourness!
Check out my recipe https://Mcooker-enn.tomathouse.com/in...ion=com_smf&topic=12121.0
I also bake wheat with sourdough and no sourness.
I’ll write a recipe if she’s interested later!
Midnight lady
Irina55, thanks for responding. In your recipe (I looked), the amount of sourdough is approximately the same as mine. Therefore, the sour taste is unlikely to be affected by a large amount of leaven. I'm trying to figure out the reason for this taste of my bread. I have a question for you. And in what state (mature, enlarged, fallen) do you put the leaven into the dough.
And write a recipe for wheat, please, if not difficult.
irina55
Before putting in the starter, I pull it out of the refrigerator (it stands in a glass jar covered with polyethylene with holes), and I feed it in a warm place either overnight or for three hours. It looks like thick thick sour cream (I will make bread tomorrow and put a photo of sourdough).
Recipe:
500 gr flour
9 Art. l. leaven
1.5 tsp salt
1 tbsp. l. Sahara
2 tbsp. l. grows up. oils
250 ml water (can be mixed with milk)
Be sure to first knead, then put on the French mode.

And in general, in any recipe where there is yeast, I use a leaven with a calculation of 9st. l. for 500g of any flour.
Zefirka
And my "eternal leaven from Luca" ordered to live long ...
At the end of May, we were hot, I did not store it in the refrigerator, I fed her 1-2 times a day. But I missed it, apparently.
At first, bread from 100% rye flour stopped rising well. Once it did not work, the second ... then I tried the leaven and it seemed to me some kind of bitter.
Well, I threw it away, especially since I was going to go on vacation for 3 weeks.
Now I'm growing a thick French sourdough. But it's hot again (in the kitchen 22-24 degrees during the day). I'm worried about whether it will work out ... there are deviations from the process, it rages on the 2nd day, then froze on the 4th.

I am very grateful to Luca and her "eternal leaven". Thanks to her, I learned that sourdough bread is so delicious. I learned how to grow and contain leaven.
Now it's not scary, sooner or later I will bring out any leaven.
Angelinka
[Before putting in the starter, I take it out of the refrigerator (it stands in a glass jar covered with polyethylene with holes), and I feed it in a warm place either overnight or for three hours. Looks like thick thick sour cream

irina55, you pull out exactly 9 tbsp. l. and feed them or all the starter available? Can this moment be more detailed, otherwise I just can't start baking ... You get the leaven and ...
irina55
I take out all the leaven, feed it with warm water and rye flour, and put it in a warm place!
Then I take from there 9 tbsp. l. , and the rest is back in the refrigerator!
Admin

This way you have a permanently unripe starter.
irina55
What does immature mean !!!
That's how much I bake from it, everything is fine!
Makhno
I found a detailed video on sourdoughs, though in English. yaz, but everything is clear

There you can also see about baking, kneading, dough

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