"Eternal" leaven

The starter is a leaven. The whole process is described in great detail here:
🔗
If my description is sinful of laconic words, and many questions still arise, dear people, help me translate into Russian - the whole process is described in great detail and with goodwill towards future bakers.

Almost any leaven that we use, grow, care for can be "eternal".
And the principle of feeding and using them is practically the same.

Bring your favorite sourdough to us, bake bread on it and show us what comes of it, it is also very interesting for us.

I will also share my experience of growing my own starter cultures, here:

ZAKVASKI - in questions and answers
https://Mcooker-enn.tomathouse.com/index.php@option=com_smf&Itemid=26&topic=3704.new#new


Lactic acid starter from Admin.
https://Mcooker-enn.tomathouse.com/index.php@option=com_smf&Itemid=26&topic=3394.0


Good luck!

Thank you very much!
Dear Admin, I really like your ideas, I think all these fermented milk starters are great.
It's just very important to me that the sourdough contains no dairy ingredients due to kosher reasons.
Maybe you can do one more good deed and link me to the winning rye bread recipe? I bake rye bread, but these are not Russian recipes. Tasty, but I would like to somehow bake Russian rye bread, but not Borodinsky - very sour!
Thanks in advance.

Maybe you can do one more good deed and link me to the winning rye bread recipe? I bake rye bread, but these are not Russian recipes. Tasty, but I would like to somehow bake Russian rye bread, but not Borodinsky - very sour!
Thanks in advance.

By the same principle, you can make starter cultures from:
water + wheat flour
water + rye flour

The most delicious rye bread is still leavened, there is a purely Russian lactic-sour fermentation, which gives the real taste of Russian rye bread, for which it is appreciated.
I have already written in detail about this fermentation in Kefir sourdough.

Here you can follow the direct link to other starter cultures of our forum:

ZAKVASKI - in questions and answers
https://Mcooker-enn.tomathouse.com/index.php@option=com_smf&Itemid=26&topic=3704.new#new


You can start baking wheat-rye bread in a bread maker according to Fugasca's recipes - you get delicious bread.

Try these two recipes from mine:

Wheat-rye "Darnytskyi" bread by Admin (page 11, Answer 159)
https://Mcooker-enn.tomathouse.com/index.php@option=com_smf&Itemid=26&topic=596.180


Wheat-rye bread on dough by Admin
https://Mcooker-enn.tomathouse.com/index.php@option=com_smf&Itemid=26&topic=3626.msg40436#new


In any case, look for your bread flavor and your own leaven!

I wish you success! Write, if you need help - we will help.

Something in different places write in different ways, I'm confused. How to cover the leaven? Should she breathe (towel, etc.)? Or a tight lid or plastic wrap?

Something in different places write in different ways, I'm confused. How to cover the leaven? Should she breathe (towel, etc.)? Or a tight lid or plastic wrap?

You correctly write "in different places and in different ways." No need to get confused.
Each of the authors passed through himself and did it.
He did it the way he likes, fits, turns out, etc., and of course from his own experience and gives advice.
And you do the same, thanks to your experience and find a solution.

What's the difference between a film and a lid - both close tightly.
For example, I keep it in a closed bank.

Admin thanks for your feedback. Yes, everyone does it differently. But, some clog the container with a starter and there is no air access, while others leave a maneuver for air (cover with a towel or gauze). It seemed to me that it was important ... Although I may be wrong. If you don’t need air, but you don’t need to ruin the situation ...

There can also be a lot of disputes on this topic, everyone will prove their position and correctness.
Listen to everyone, remember, do, but keep an eye on your cooking, feeding and sourdough content. Observe her behavior.
After all, you do not know how other people get out of certain situations when keeping sourdough, everything is different and all the subtleties are difficult to describe.
Only experience, moreover, your own

Like a bread maker, leaven is your friend - so find your own language with her.

Overpower, you'll see

Admin! Now it is clear that leaven is complete creativity and there are no clear rules. Just observe and experiment, otherwise someone else's experience is too different ...

Admin! Now it is clear that leaven is complete creativity and there are no clear rules. Just observe and experiment, otherwise someone else's experience is too different ...

No, of course there are certain rules. Read carefully and take a closer look at the descriptions of the behavior of the starter cultures, the amount of flour, water, and other components and methods of feeding the starter cultures, at least on our forum.
Then experience will come, there would be something to push off from.
Yes, this is creativity, because you don't know what to expect and how to act, but you have to get out of the situation. And knowing someone else's experience can be useful.

Just don't be afraid, it's not so scary. Add a certain scheme for yourself from the starter culture you read on the site and go for it.

Good luck!

Please tell me experienced bakers !!! I have the following problem. I make sourdough according to Admin's recipe from rye flour. Before the first feeding, she came up a little. I fed her. After 2 hours, she got out of the liter jar. I moved it to the big one. Since then, the results have not been impressive. Last night I fed it a second time. 12 hours have passed since then, and the leaven does not show any signs of fermentation. What to do: throw it away and start over, or can you reanimate the situation? The storage conditions of the starter culture did not change, the smell was the same and not a single bubble.
And another question: why do you need so much leaven? Does a lot of it go into the dough?

Find the answers here:

Lactic acid starter from Admin.
https://Mcooker-enn.tomathouse.com/index.php@option=com_smf&Itemid=26&topic=3394.0

ZAKVASKI - in questions and answers
https://Mcooker-enn.tomathouse.com/index.php@option=com_smf&Itemid=26&topic=3704.new#new

I'm still in this kettle. But with a cursory glance at the recipes for sourdough bread, I saw that it was taken up to 3.5 measuring glasses. As for transportation to a large jar during the process, I also did this, and she died with me (this is my experience). And so let the knowledgeable answer ...

Admin, svetik1, thanks for the answer.
The old leaven is still standing, silent. Made a new one. Today I fed for the first time. I like her. Even the smell is pleasant, and that one was initially nasty. The first pancake is lumpy - I'm going to rip off the can

Help, please, experts !!!
My second leaven is silent on the third day. I wandered a little only until the first feeding. Recipe for everlasting sourdough on rye flour.
Please describe the reasons why the leaven may not ferment. It would be nice to add these reasons at the beginning of the topic. And newbies like me would have fewer questions for you.

"And newbies like me would have fewer questions for you."

Such newbies will have fewer questions if you read the information on the site (which no one is hiding from you) about leaven before starting the business.

ZAKVASKI - in questions and answers
https://Mcooker-enn.tomathouse.com/index.php@option=com_smf&Itemid=26&topic=3704.0

There is such an abundance of information in different versions.

Hleboegka! check the temperature where you have the leaven. It should be warm, but up to 28 degrees. Otherwise, the leaven can "doze". You can revive it a little with sugar. Smell her to see if she stinks too much. In general, it is possible that it does not bubble immediately. At least I had it. But I was too hot.

Admin! Please tell me, based on your experience, is it possible to achieve sourdough bread close to yeast. I mean porosity, airiness. I have an "eternal" young woman. She's a week. I bake on it, without adding yeast at all. The bread is suitable about 2 times, but still a little (for my taste) heavy, although it is not baked raw. What is the maximum volume you got from the leaven (I mean without adding yeast). More than 2 times? And does "age" affect the rise and different types of starter cultures too?

[light1]

light1 I baked bread according to this recipe Alexandra https://Mcooker-enn.tomathouse.com/index.php@option=com_smf&topic=3293.0.

The result was very pleasing. I used exactly the "eternal" leaven (flour + water) of weekly exposure. I did not add yeast at all, and the bread turned out to be very tasty and with high porosity, which I did not expect at all and it made me very happy, because I also like not dense bread. But this is bread made from a mixture of rye and wheat flour.If you want to bake bread with pure rye flour, I think it will be more difficult to achieve high porosity.

I forgot to say - I kneaded in a bread maker, stood according to the recipe - in a bowl in the refrigerator, and baked in the oven.

[The most important thing is that you got the first sourdough, and then search, search ...]

Admin! Please tell me, based on your experience, is it possible to achieve sourdough bread close to yeast.

Yes, it is possible.
Alina has already answered your question.
I can add that it all depends on the sourdough and the ingredients in the dough. It is impossible to give a specific answer, you just need to look for yourself and compare the products taken and the quantity and quality of the starter culture and conditions on the street and in the kitchen, etc.
As with any other bread.

The most important thing is that you got the first sourdough, and then search, search ...

Svetik1, thanks for your help. Thanks to you, by the night the sourdough nevertheless approached (it lacked the capricious heat) By morning there was already warm bread according to your own recipe, for which thanks again! Another one is already "preparing"

[Hleboegka]

Hleboegka, I draw your attention once again to your violation of the Rules of Conduct on the forum
https://Mcooker-enn.tomathouse.com/index.php@option=com_smf&topic=331.0

The actions of the Administrators and Moderators are not discussed on the forum, please take note of this. Your messages of this nature will be removed from the forum.

Admin! Thank you for your feedback. I have more questions:
-And are there any norms for setting the starter culture for the amount of flour? Let me explain: for example, 100 grams of sourdough or more or less are put on the total amount of flour. I just already understood that increasing the amount of sourdough from this from a certain point does not change anything (the dough does not melt better). But if you put a little leaven, it will not be enough. Has anyone verified the approximate sourdough rates for the amount of flour? What can you say about this.
- Does the age of the starter culture (not just simple in the refrigerator, but its growth with feeding and then use) affect the degree of fermentation, and as a result, a better rise?
ALINA! thanks, I'll try ....
Hleboegka! Try it, it has baked from that moment more than once, with different ingredients and flour composition. I was repelled by the state of the kolobok. The results are not bad, although I want to achieve greater porosity and lightness ... I have never added yeast.

You can use 50% of the total flour in the recipe.

Elena BO! Thank you!

Admin! Thank you for your feedback. I have more questions:
- Are there any norms for setting the starter culture for the amount of flour?
- Does the age of the starter culture (not just simple in the refrigerator, but its growth with feeding and then use) affect the degree of fermentation, and as a result, a better rise?

There are bookmark norms, if you make bread and sourdoughs according to GOST, there is a kitchen.
Reading the literature and sites, I did not see a single bookmarking norm, so each has its own norm, its own links to different sources, to its correctness and correctness of its position.
I even had a desire to make a starter bookmark table and the material was preserved. But then I cooled down, because everyone does it their own way, even on our website.
It turns out that there is a desire and like the taste of bread - so it will be so. Why also introduce standards that do not exist.

The age of the leaven. According to my observations and from what I read on the sites, the strength of the sourdough does not depend on its standing time in the refrigerator, but on the frequency of its use and feeding. It begins to become strong after 5-7 feeding cycles (7 times for 3 days).
The sourdough definitely needs to rest for several days after a good feeding, it goes hungry and after that it starts to eat with pleasure what is given to it, again gains strength, it becomes vigorous.

Admin! Thanks for the comprehensive answer. Agree. that, in principle, you need to proceed from your taste preferences for finished bread. BUT this is practically a poke method. It seemed to me that from a certain mass, the leaven no longer works as a leaven. Just like flour and water. If you have a desire and find your material please post it. I would be very interested. and not only me, I guess ...

Admin! Thanks for the comprehensive answer. Agree. that, in principle, you need to proceed from your taste preferences for finished bread. BUT this is practically a poke method. It seemed to me that from a certain mass, the leaven no longer works as a leaven. Just like flour and water. If you have a desire and find your material please post it. I would be very interested. and not only me, I guess ...

Why - it works. You just need a proportion of flour and water to a bun. I made sourdough + flour 50x50, and it went fine, though I practically did not add water, there was enough liquid sourdough. You shouldn't put more sourdough, because you still have to report flour to the kolobok, and this is an increase in the dough volume, and you still get 50x50.
I have already tried any proportions, everything works. Only there were times when the taste of the bread did not fit, well, nothing, on its crackers. Good for kvass. And then a lot also depends on those products and types of flour that you put into the dough at the moment. Look at my bread, they are made from different compositions and combinations of flour and products - and they are all different.

Do not misunderstand me, I tried it, but how can I be sure of your taste and preferences, to choose and eat bread for you.
And you all the time incline me to proportions. I took and still take those proportions of flour and sourdough and other products that will suit me today, on this day of baking.

You have already mastered the leaven, it was scary - but you mastered it.
Now select your proportions, start with 100-120 ml, then as you see fit and gain your experience, your bread.

Do you think I was not afraid to start doing this? "Scary", because if it doesn't work out, the products will be discarded, and the conversation is not even in their cost, but in the fact that no one could answer the question why.
You then, sorry on my heels are walking, there is already someone to ask and professionals have already appeared on the forum, and when it all began ... you could only ask ..... your beloved, will it work out or not.

And until now, before I start eating bread, I sit and calculate what and how much, and what I can get from this, because I will not eat this, my houses will not eat, it is sour, it is low, etc. and then I sit near the stove with observations.
And it's true - it is!

I wish you long sitting near the stove and oven, and good bread!

I'm going to bake sourdough bread in a bread maker, but I'm new to it. I would be very grateful to everyone who gives good advice.
The main question is, of course, the leaven.

You will find a lot of practical tips on the site.

To get started, go here:

ZAKVASKI - in questions and answers
https://Mcooker-enn.tomathouse.com/index.php@option=com_smf&Itemid=26&topic=3704.new#new


Then decide what you want to get and with what leaven, read carefully, start using, questions will appear - ask in the appropriate topic on a specific leaven.

Admin! And what do you think, I faced such a problem ... There is a certain recipe (scheme for creating some kind of sourdough). The problem is that my starter culture "ripens" faster on the way of creation. For example, you need to wait a day and get bubbles, but after 6 hours it has not only increased, but tripled ... Do you think it makes sense to wait for the approximate time until the next feeding? Or proceed from the state of the leaven itself?

You were given instructions on how to grow the leaven. Feed only once a day.
So this is what you need to do, the rest of the time, upset it if it grows. Beat it with a broom, then it will be saturated with oxygen.

Read carefully the sourdough preparation scheme again.

Adminthank you! I missed whipping something ...

Maybe I haven't discovered America, or maybe someone will come in handy: if you want to grow the sourdough now, during the off-season, when the heating is not on yet and the apartments are cool, you can create more or less incubatory conditions for the sourdough by placing the dishes with it in another dish a large volume with warm water, that is, something like a water bath.We change the cooled water to warm and everything is ok. I did "warm baths" for sourdough only in the evening after work and it turned out to be quite enough.
This experiment was carried out over the "eternal" leaven and she, young, three days old, did an excellent job with rye bread, however, 0.5 tsp. I still added yeast (about 2.5 cups of rye flour + 0.5 cups of millet flour, there are no weights, so the guide is on the bun). In appearance, bread with a flat, not collapsed roof and normal uniform porosity, like store-bought bread, but the taste lacks the characteristic sourness.
I hope that when the sourdough "matures" sourness will appear and I will be able to switch to 100% sourdough rye bread without adding milch flour.

[Umka]

Umka, have you managed to do without yeast?
I have a 3 day "everlasting" leaven raised the bread without any added yeast.
Now I have it already "adult" and I put about 0.5 liters of sourdough on a loaf, the rest is "by eye". It rises in 4-5 hours and bakes normally. Everyone who tried it said it was delicious. There is also sourness
I take the leaven when it froths. I feed the rest in the refrigerator.
Good luck!

Umk

Hello! I have one question. You write that the working leaven can be increased by adding a nutrient medium and then it will be "eternal". Have you tried to dry this leaven (in a gentle temperature mode)? Bacteria, fungi develop only in a humid or liquid environment, will the microflora of the starter culture go into suspended animation (canned)? Thanks in advance for your reply.

Hello! I have one question. You write that the working leaven can be increased by adding a nutrient medium and then it will be "eternal". Have you tried to dry this leaven (in a gentle temperature mode)? Bacteria, fungi develop only in a humid or liquid environment, will the microflora of the starter culture go into suspended animation (canned)? Thanks in advance for your reply.

I've tried doing this. Dried up the rest of the dough. Then he filled it with water, poured fresh flour and put it on the battery. But due to being very busy, I forgot and remembered only a day later. It didn't look like leaven
But this is an inconclusive experiment. Now I'll put it on again and try not to forget
By the way, its name "eternal", as I understand it, does not come from the fact that it is reborn, like the Phoenix bird, but from the fact that if you take care of it accordingly, then it is always alive. Not periodic, so to speak, but constant. And if you don't feed her, then she, like any of us, will not live
If I understand correctly, you want to throw the dried sourdough into the dough when kneading and so that bread is immediately obtained. The idea is interesting. I don’t know if it will turn out like this. We need to check how long it will take for her to go from suspended animation to working condition. Perhaps somewhere on the forum this has already been discussed
How will the results be - I'll let you know

By the way, its name "eternal", as I understand it, does not come from the fact that it is reborn, like the Phoenix bird, but from the fact that if you take care of it accordingly, then it is always alive. Not periodic, so to speak, but constant. And if you don't feed her, then she, like any of us, will not live
If I understand correctly, you want to throw the dried sourdough into the dough when kneading and so that bread is immediately obtained. The idea is interesting. I don’t know if it will turn out like this. We need to check how long it will take for her to go from suspended animation to working condition. Perhaps somewhere on the forum this has already been discussed
How will the results be - I'll let you know

You understood me wrong. I don't want to inject dried starter directly into the raw material. I want to increase it, just as the author recommended (average humidity and the same temperature + sourdough) What can be won:
1.do not fool around every day, that is, follow her
2. starter culture is required - please, de-preserve it and it is fresh.
3. can be stored for a long time.
4. any starter culture at the age of one month begins to turn sour, lose its activity and eventually turn sour, since the lactic acid microflora enters with the air.
Also yeast (dry). They are grown for about 45 hours, then dried in a spray dryer, in a gentle mode.
I feel that I myself will have to try to ferment with this recipe and dry in an oven. I think it should turn out not bad
p.s. and de-preservation (exit from suspended animation) should last no more than 12 hours.

I can say that my grandmother baked bread with homemade dry yeast. They were cooked in sourdough mixed with corn flour and then dried. The leaven, however, was hop. Before baking bread, it was soaked in water and the olara was placed on it.

4. any starter culture at the age of one month begins to turn sour, lose its activity and eventually turn sour, since the lactic acid microflora enters with the air.

I think that in this you are wrong. Here on the forum it is written that the eternal leaven is passed on to the next generations
My leaven is not yet a month old and will have its first birthday on December 24th. Therefore, I don’t know from my own experience.

I dried some leaven. It will dry completely by evening. Then a couple of days of control - to definitely dry out. Then I'll try to put a dough on it. I'll tell you what happens

I think that in this you are wrong. Here on the forum it is written that the eternal leaven is passed on to the next generations
I am a little familiar with microbiological processes and I think that in industrial conditions the mother liquors are renewed, since all microorganisms, including large-cell yeast (contained in the yeast), tend to mutate and, by the way, accumulate pathogenic forms, they can also accumulate toxins. I think in ancient times the leaven was passed in the form of recipes (by word of mouth, maybe in material form too) which the author suggested for discussion. For example, mix one with the other, with the third ...
And "eternity" in my opinion, probably in the simplicity and genius of obtaining it

... all microorganisms, including large-cell yeast (contained in the yeast), tend to mutate and, by the way, accumulate pathogenic forms, they can also accumulate toxins ...

oops thanks for the info
will have to study the topic in more detail

it seems that the sourdough was over-acidified on the second day .... I put it on the battery for the night, I take off the towel in the morning, and judging by the traces of the dough, the sourdough rose 2 times, and then fell back ... and it smells of sour. and touched it ... and she's hot ... they heat up strongly. I fed her right there .... but it hasn't increased for about 12 hours since then, but there are bubbles .. 3-5 mm in diameter.

Comrades, experienced bakers, do you think it will come to life? advise how to get out of the situation

it seems that the sourdough was over-acidified on the second day .... I put it on the battery for the night, I take off the towel in the morning, and judging by the traces of the dough, the sourdough rose 2 times, and then fell back ... and it smells of sour. and touched it ... and she's hot ... they heat up strongly. I fed her right there .... but it hasn't increased for about 12 hours since then, but there are bubbles .. 3-5 mm in diameter.

Comrades, experienced bakers, do you think it will come to life? advise how to get out of the situation

I can answer that the leaven ripened earlier than you planned, it should have been removed earlier from heat sources. If it smells like acid, then the carbohydrates in the raw material have been fermented to form acetic acid, due to the ingress of lactic acid microflora. It is better to melt with such a leaven and start all over again and, accordingly, monitor the activation time. And you have it hot because probably thermophilic mushrooms have also activated (genus Clostridium, Aspergillus, Penicillium, etc.)
By the way, if you hold it longer, then after another 12 hours a light cannon will appear, then hyphae and stallon and, accordingly, a gray or gray bloom ...

[Polinka]

... By the way, if you hold it longer, then after another 12 hours a light cannon will appear, then hyphae and stallon and, accordingly, a gray or gray bloom ...

Polinka
Somewhere in the bread recipes I read a refined method of breeding "eternal" leaven. I searched the forum and did not find this place It says that heat is needed only on the first day !!! Moreover, if I'm not mistaken 30-35 * С. A hot battery gives more !!! On the second and third days - even lower - 20-22 * С. I did it myself when I removed from the battery
Try not to heat that much.

sorry ... okay, I'll put a new one. I don't need hallucinogenic bread

for the future, tell me please, should she not smell sour at all? or will it be a little bit?

for the future, please tell me, should she not smell sour at all? or will it be a little bit?

I smell a little sour. And if you let it stand outside the refrigerator, it still smells a little of apples. Why - I don’t know But I love apples and I like

[Polinka]

Polinka
It says that heat is needed only on the first day !!! Moreover, if I'm not mistaken 30-35 * С. A hot battery gives more !!! On the second and third days - even lower - 20-22 * С. I did it myself when I removed from the battery

That's right! First, the temperature and humidity are set, then biological heat is released during the life of microorganisms. It is enough to multiply the starter culture in a thermos with a small barbater
but at home it's easier to do this too. the temmos can be closed with a seam with openings for atmospheric air