Discussion of the Marta mt-1784 bread maker Chef-baker

Please tell us (or by link, if already somewhere).

It is unlikely that my experience will be useful to you, I make bread without a recipe and with sourdough, I knead the dough with my hands or with a mixer, and bake in the oven. I mix rye and semi-rye dough no less long and thoroughly than wheat, and then the bread comes out more porous than with a standard kneading. Only I do not torment you much with fiddling.
I like to tinker with Borodinsky in full: first, brewing and saccharification, then fermentation of the brew, and already on this dough I start bread.
Long fermentation is always beneficial to rye flour, I can hardly imagine how this can be crammed into automatic mode. You must first measure and record the time at all stages, and then play with the settings of your stove.

Recently, I brewed malt in a thermos glass, added salt, sugar / honey, caraway seeds, coriander there, left it for several hours and warmed it up in the microwave once or twice. In the evening it cooled down and went to KP. I didn't notice that it somehow affected the quality of the dough, but it seems to add richness of taste and color. It turns out that this saccharification is, almost) And in general, I found that I was quite close to what is called Borodinsky in KhP.

I mix rye and semi-rye dough no less long and thoroughly than wheat, and then the bread comes out more porous than with a standard kneading. Only I do not torment you very much

Kneading 20 ', autolysis 30', kneading 40 ', lifting to double the volume, kneading 1', lifting and baking - don't you see gross mistakes here? These are the maximum durations, for wheat dough it is just what you need. I will try the ratio of rye and wheat flour 2: 1. I will double the yeast and malt.

It turns out that this saccharification is, almost)

Almost, but no, it's just a brew of malt, purely for color and flavor.
Correct saccharification takes place in the presence of rye flour, preferably not sown, but whole grain, 1.5-2 hours (it used to be 6, but scientists from the Institute of Bakery determined that this is enough) at 65 *.
If the flour + malt and spices are brewed with boiling water, then after cooling the mixture to 65, a little more "live" flour must be added to the brew for fermentation, well, or immediately heated only to this T. Honey and sugar are not needed here, saccharification takes place after the sugar count of the flour gelatinized starch. This is the point, not the contact of the malt with the sweet.

don't you see gross mistakes here?

I am not guided by time, only I try to keep the fermentation temperature exactly 30 *, experts consider it the most optimal for rye.

I will try the ratio of rye and wheat flour 2: 1

Mostly rye dough will not double, I would not wait for a very high rise.

I will double the yeast and malt.

Red malt can taste bitter if added too much. And why extra yeast? If you ferment too quickly, the dough will not have time to pick up acid and the crumb will be sticky and sticky.

it's just a brew of malt, purely for color and flavor.
Correct saccharification takes place in the presence of rye flour.
Honey and sugar are not needed here, saccharification of buit occurs due to the sugars of the gelatinized starch of flour

Saccharification products, apparently, will also participate in further fermentation. For stable repeatability on the machine, you will either have to somehow normalize saccharification (dosages, temperature, time) or abandon it.
Sugar and salt were added for a better release of flavoring substances into the solution with simple brewing.
With yeast understood, thanks. Do you add acid in some form? For example, pour vinegar.

or refuse it.

Oh, don’t, saccharification increases the nutritional value, makes bread healthier. You can "make porridge" the day before and put it in the refrigerator. Just take this step away from the bread machine, write it off for preliminary preparation.

Do you add acid in some form? For example, pour vinegar.

Yes, but it's more to simulate the right taste and save time. I believe that it is better to accumulate the correct acids in the dough by good fermentation. My sourdough works with acid, sometimes I add tomato paste, but this is more for usefulness than for increasing acidity.

Sugar and salt were added for a better release of flavoring substances into the solution with simple brewing.

Water is already a universal solvent, it will draw out all the aromas from malt and spices, especially in a drink.

[Crown]

Crown, Thank you!
The roadmap is mostly clear, I will try.

[vmspb]

vmspb, good luck and delicious bread!
By the way, when kneading rye dough, it also reaches a stage when it begins to move away from the walls. Not so obviously, of course, as wheat, but if you look closely, touch, poke with a spatula, you can notice. Therefore, I do not interfere with the time, but to this degree of almost completely smooth "putty".
Only my flour is peeled, it had nothing to do with the seeded, they say it is more capricious.

Girls, I tried several times, but the transfer of links is not my strong point when dialing from the phone. Once again: I, too, Martochka, baked in it more than once this kind of bread according to the recipe of Tatyana-Admin: "Bread with sour milk", I really liked it.
This is how I could link to the recipe. If I can, I will try to quote my message from there and insert a photo.
https://Mcooker-enn.tomathouse.com/in...om_smf&topic=167923.0

Tatyana, although it is problematic to write to me, I cannot resist and thank for such a wonderful bread. I baked in a MARTA MT-1784 bread maker on mode "1" - for simple white bread that. Completely according to the recipe, with the exception of the oil - I only had the usual refined sunflower in stock, and I put it instead of the olive one. The result is in the photo. DELICIOUS!!!
P.S.
My milk was frankly sour, but still liquid, which had not yet had time to thicken and ferment. That is, if someone, like me, does not have a thick yogurt - in my case it didn’t hurt - the result is excellent, I baked it twice. Simple store milk, both times different.

rye dough, when kneading, also reaches a stage when it begins to move away from the walls

And what is the ratio of rye to wheat, is it not wheat that developed gluten begins to tighten the dough?

Girls

This is sexism, I condemn)
Thanks for the link. Was everything baked right on the first program, "no hands"?
The dosage would be a good amount, it turned out beautiful.

And what is the ratio of rye to wheat, is it not wheat that developed gluten begins to tighten the dough?

Yes, even from one rye, in it there is gluten, little, but there is. In general, starch should also influence this matter, there is much more of it in flour than gluten,% 50-70, but this is my speculation, I have not delved into this topic yet.

[Crown]

Peeled rye 180g, rye malt 20g, premium wheat 100g, with preliminary brewing of malt and saccharification with 40g of rye from the total amount at 65 °, also rast. butter, salt, sugar, honey, coriander, 5g of apple cider vinegar, the usual 3g of Saf moment yeast. Timings where possible to the maximum: kneading 20 ', autolysis 30', kneading 40 ', lifting, kneading 1', lifting and baking
After 15 minutes of kneading, the sides of the bucket got stuck, and after half an hour of autolysis and after 10 minutes of the second batch, it began to lag behind from the bottom, gathering in a bun. After an hour of proofing, it rose above the rim of the bucket:

But after the kneading, it remained stuck to the walls:

Apparently, 35-37 ° is too much for rye, but the temperature profile is not regulated. Collected in a kolobok manually.Is there anything you can do about this besides shortening the ascent time?
The last proofing was reduced to 50 minutes, without allowing to rise to the brim, according to previous experiments this leads to settling during baking. It was necessary to cut another 5-10 minutes:


The structure after kneading at maximum speed and additional proofing is definitely better. The color is quite Borodino. The taste is very tasty, saccharification adds directly tangibly. Thank you Crown!
There is something to work on, but the preliminary result is already pleasing. Criticism and guidance are welcome!

It's great that the bread was a success!

Apparently, 35-37 ° is too much for rye, but the temperature profile is not regulated.

My bread maker used to overheat yogurt, so I began to hold it with the lid ajar and then it was not so hot in the cell.
You can do this, but it will be a fat minus to automatism.

After an hour of proofing

Which is the first? This is called fermentation and I would cut it down, not proofing.
Proofing is the last climb before baking, as the bakers call it, but the oven makers have confused us all with their instructions.

[Crown]

Crown, Marta thermostat, if you open it, it will simply heat more up to its settings. The same yogurt keeps 42 ° as nailed, regardless of the lid. Filmed the temperature log with flux 289.)

It's great that the bread was a success!

Thanks, but this estimate is in advance)

Which is the first? This is called fermentation and I would cut it down, not proofing.

Which after the second batch of 40 minutes.
In general, the less sugar and more honey, the slower the rise. Should you strive for a long fermentation?

[vmspb]

Girls

, vmspb, - and Boys!
Yes, I baked on the first program, automatically, only tracked the bun, but practically did not correct it. By weight - did not reduce, baked completely according to the recipe, rested against the roof (as expected) - if you look closely, it is noticeable in the photo.
I liked this recipe, first of all, precisely because of its "elaboration", accuracy, simplicity and, in my case, always a guaranteed result, I sang several times already, including in another CP, with my father - the result is predictable. Well, besides everything, of course - VERY TASTY (IMHO).

[Kestrel]

Kestrel, on yogurt, too, will probably work, have not tried?
I am confused by the different acidity of sour milk, how this uncertainty affects the repeatability of the result on the machine. And in yogurt, fermentation has already been completed, and in the refrigerator it is stored in a fairly stable state.
I like to measure the optimal time once or twice, and then the oven on the machine in the user mode. In the evening I laid it down, introduced the program, and went to bed. Let him bother himself to the maximum.
And I want to reduce the bookmark to 500g.

[vmspb]

vmspb, I posted a link to the recipe there above, look at the topic there, there seemed to be similar questions. I have this bread best of all on sour milk, yogurt. I did it on kefir diluted with water - I don't know, maybe it seems - but on a simple kitty. pier I like it more. Somehow it comes out for me, it seems to me, more airy, or something lighter .. But this is for me, subjective. I even left it to sour milk somehow, although there were kefir and sour cream at home.

this bread is best made with sour milk, yogurt

Where there is yogurt, I think there is also yogurt. The topic is more for kefir as an alternative, and it is a product of alcoholic fermentation, should be different in bread.

[vmspb]

vmspb, tell (and show, if possible) how it will turn out. Very interesting too. By the way, yes, you have subtly noticed the difference between fermentation in kefir, you are thinking.
And the recalculation of the bookmark for 500 g is interesting, will you write?

[Kestrel]

Kestrel, I tried it on yogurt, for sighting I took 30 g of butter, 200 liquid, 300 flour, 6 salt, 3 yeast saf moment. Without sugar, yeast does not develop very much, long fermentation is also not shown to it, the dough is quite liquid and sticky, it remains on the walls when kneaded. The rise during proofing is long and unstable, while the top has settled down during baking.Until I understood this bread. I'll try it on sour milk when it appears.

Should you strive for a long fermentation?

The question is not in time, but in the accumulation of sufficient acidity, which, in turn, depends on the initial amount of yeast / starter culture and fermentation temperature. I taste the dough sour / not sour.
I noticed many times that if you let the rye dough rise high for the first time, then during the last proofing it no longer grows so high and often settles when baking. In my opinion, there is, as it were, an overstretching of the gluten threads, there are already few of them, and even such a load. Therefore, for the first time I do not allow to rise high or, if I have missed the time, I bake it without heaving, otherwise the bread will turn out to be low or the roof will fall.

Good day, all the time of the day, take the owners of Martha's bread machine into your ranks. And help a beginner, I can't cope with lean bread 2. It turns out just very dense bread, I have already increased the water to 200 ml, but everything still remains and the roof is cracked: - It can be seen that the dough does not rise very much .. The yeast is using the sof-moment, the rest of the ingredients are tested on the first program, the bread is excellent, but I feel the egg and I don't like it, I want to win program 2, help me out !!!!
There is an assumption that the amount of flour does not correspond to 350 grams, looking at other programs they contain 300 grams of flour.

In the photo on the right is lean bread on program 2, on the left is program 1 (the roof fell down most likely due to the heat +35)

[Svetlana82]

Svetlana82, you can select ingredients and proportions, trying to get into the factory programs. Our stove has the ability to customize the duration of kneading and rises in the user mode, a much more direct way to the desired result.

The last time I reduced the flour to 300 grams, it turned out better, but not at all ideal. Today I'm trying to bake French bread .... Along the way, I'm studying the technology of making bread, I still don't quite understand what and how.

[Svetlana82]

Svetlana82, judging by the photo, the left bread has too much liquid or too much liquid, and the second one almost didn't have enough water.