Bread makers Panasonic SD-2500, SD-2501, SD-2502, SD-2510, SD-2511, SD-2512 ... (4)

[mamusi]

and more specifically, using the example of my "Westphalian", what when and how to soak?

mamusi, Rit, your rye bread ... And I make wheat CZ. With rye, it's more difficult for me, I don't feel them and don't understand them well. I bake only exclusively according to recipes and with sourdough (I have Sekova). Therefore, I go and pester our clever girls who can find and explain, show. Or I use the best practices of hard workers like you.

As far as I understand, there is no need to get hung up on the lifting force of the leaven. The main thing is that there should be a lot of ICD, then the bread will become useful.

Found an interesting bread at Arka. Maybe I'll try in Panasonic. Suddenly it will turn out to make him on duty.

interesting of course, I myself read the topic of the Accomplishment

But not me. And I don't plan to.

I see. I bake only exclusively according to recipes and with sourdough (I have Sekova).

Aah, I see.

I use the best practices of hard workers like you.

Light, well, you say too!

Here, even without this acid, there are enough horror stories and environmental friendliness. I'm not going to bother specifically and get scared. I believe that the body's margin of safety is also good, otherwise everyone would go with rickets, because we all eat bread with cereals. But, for example, if buckwheat is planned, I will soak it overnight. Business for 5 minutes.

It makes no sense to soak ordinary brown buckwheat, it is already fried and all living processes are stopped, it is worth tinkering, if not laziness, only with green.
You really don't need to bother and be scared, but it doesn't hurt to know.

Rickets is in children, there is a slightly different mechanism and consequences, and the elderly are at risk of osteoporosis, fraught with fragility of bones and fractures. The disease develops gradually, imperceptibly, even from a young age, and the older the person, the more chances of finding it. This is especially dangerous for us, for postmenopausal girls.

Our artists, Gurchenko and Farada, went to the next world because of a hip fracture. Lyudmila Markovna slipped on the street during icy conditions, and Farad's own sheepdog dropped at home. The man got out of the stroke, but he could not survive the fracture.

[fffuntic]

fffuntic,

if buckwheat is planned, then I will soak it for the night

Flax, indeed, this topic recently surfaced from Galina's submission, and then I looked through a lot of literature (original scientific articles), but there was no purpose to "give a report", and I settled on the fact that, yes, phytic acid binds mineral elements (list of elements headed by zinc, calcium is mentioned in passing as a “minor influence.” Whereas in the Russian-speaking Internet the emphasis is shifted towards calcium, which makes the “demonization” of phytic acid (FA) understandable and affecting everyone).

Documentary evidence that IP₆ binds min. elements in the intestine and together with them leaves the body (in humans, phytase, it seems, no), I have not met.
In addition, there is a whole block of medical articles where its anti-cancer effect was investigated and was administered orally, and it worked. That is, it was completely absorbed by the body.
All this definitely requires reading a large number of original (original) scientific articles and their analysis. Then you can draw some reasonable conclusion. At the moment, I am inclined to believe that the harm of FC is more of a hyped horror story than a serious, well-grounded conclusion.
In any case, phytic acid is a form of phosphorus storage in plants. Therefore, it splits at germination seeds. Ie.the purpose of soaking is not to wash the acid out of the seed, but to start the germination process. And 5-10 hours is not enough for this, “for the night” you don't even need to bother. And with brown buckwheat, like Crown wrote - even more so.
Flour is another matter. Soaking flour activates its own enzymes, that is, in the case of whole grains - including phytase. And the content of FA in flour after soaking for several hours should decrease (from the point of view of the theory. I did not look for confirmatory studies).

Tell us about KMKZ, interesting. On the question of spontaneous leavens, this information may come in handy with your thoughtful approach:

https: //.livejournal.com/38130.html

Although, it seems to me, this is the same Sergei you mentioned, and you have already read this

Soaking flour activates its own enzymes, that is, in the case of whole grains - including phytase. And its content in flour after soaking for several hours should decrease (from the point of view of the theory. I did not look for confirmatory studies).

URRAAA! Thanks to Reinhart !!!

Good afternoon everyone! I'm going to become the owner of hb, but I can't decide which is better)))) I read the forum a little ... and did not quite understand in the tables about the differences. It turns out that the SD-2511 and SD-2501WTS models are almost the same, but SD says that they are released for Europe and they do not, for example, have a dumplings test .. Or am I confusing something?
and where do the BTS models that have dumplings come from then? on yandex. the market does not have them

[Anna bkkv]

Anna bkkv, these plates compare models
Bread makers Panasonic SD-2500, SD-2501, SD-2502, SD-2510, SD-2511, SD-2512 ... (4) # 1441

[Anna]

BTS WTS

Anna, B - means black, that is, black, and W, respectively, white, but I have not met 2511 really black ones, those who want to have black HP can be ordered in Europe

I see, thanks ... now I'll study the plate again))

You really don't need to bother and get scared, but it doesn't hurt to know.

Knowledge is power! Most victims of osteoporosis are in Sweden, where max. consumption of milk and calcium, respectively, and least of all in Papua. Why? Because of the acidifying animal food abused by the Swedes! Cheese is the most acidic product. The body extracts calcium from the bones to neutralize the intake. acids and makes them brittle. Papuses eat more alkalizing plant foods and therefore do not suffer from osteoporosis and spit on phytic acid! My IMHO!

[In childhood, bone formation predominates over bone destruction, which ensures gradual growth. After reaching skeletal maturity, these processes come into balance.]

Why?

Life expectancy in Sweden is 82 years, and in Papua (these) only 62, and as you know, this is an age-related disease. Well, + movement, the "Papuans" obviously move much more than the Swedes.

The body extracts calcium from bones for ...

Not for, but because the natural process of "destruction-restoration" is constantly going on in the bones

Bone remodeling
In the course of formation, bone tissue is deposited in a random order, further undergoing constant restructuring. This process is ongoing; in this case, the bone tissue is organized into ordered units that allow the bone mass to resist mechanical stress.
Old bone is removed by osteoclasts, and osteoblasts form new tissue.
Bone remodeling affects not only bone structure, but also blood calcium levels.
This chemical element plays an important role in the transmission of nerve impulses, the formation of cell membranes and the process of blood coagulation.
The bones of the skeleton contain about 99% of all calcium in the body. With a significant decrease in its level in the blood, parathyroid hormone stimulates the activity of osteoclasts, and calcium is released into the bloodstream. If, on the contrary, there is a high level of this substance in the body, the hormone calcitonin suppresses bone resorption.
Bone resorption
Osteoclasts secrete enzymes that break down the bone matrix and acids that dissolve calcium salts, which are then absorbed
into the bloodstream.
These cells show their activity under the epiphyseal growth zone, narrowing the expanded ends in accordance with the width of the growing bone body.Osteoclasts also function in the thickness of the bone, clearing the long tubular spaces in which bone marrow is deposited.
Hormonal regulation
While the main function of osteoclasts is bone resorption, osteoblasts are responsible for the formation of new bone tissue, thereby maintaining skeletal structure. This process is regulated by hormones, growth factors and vitamin D.
In childhood, bone formation predominates over bone destruction, which ensures gradual growth.
After reaching skeletal maturity, these processes come into balance.

Long tubular bones
The remodeling process is especially important for the long bones that make up the skeleton of the limbs. Their ends are wider than the middle part, which gives additional strength to the joint.
Inside each tubular space, cleared by osteoclasts, osteoblasts begin to perform their function, forming a layer of new bone tissue. As osteoclasts destroy old epiphyseal thickenings of bone, osteoblasts in the growth zone create a new pineal gland.
Remodeling rate
Bone remodeling is not a universal process; in different parts of the skeleton, it flows at different speeds. Bone formation is more pronounced in those areas where the bone is subjected to maximum stress, and, therefore, it is there that it is more susceptible to replacement. For example, the structure of the femur is updated every five to six months.
When the load on the bone decreases, for example, when the leg is immobilized after an injury, there is a tendency to resorption, and the process of bone destruction prevails over the course of recovery.

regardless of our lifestyle or nutrition, that is, calcium will be extracted from the bones in any case (like trees shed their foliage in autumn), but the structure of bones can only be restored if the body gets and assimilates a sufficient amount of minerals for this.
FK preserves a significant part of nutrients in cereals / seeds, making them inaccessible to us, non-rodents and neptics.

Flood, sir! We must move to another topic.

PS. Even the Swedes have less sun, in contrast to.

FK preserves a significant part of nutrients in cereals / seeds, making them inaccessible to us, non-rodents and neptics.

It’s hard to believe in this conclusion ... For some reason, in developing countries, where milk is not abused, but feed mainly on grain, which no one ever soaks, FC does not preserve anything and no one, and an epidemic is going on in developed countries. fractures. Germany and Scandinavia are absolute champions. And as vitamins and minerals there are on sale a dime a dozen, for every taste. Distribution map osteoporosis by country under the spoiler.

🔗

Girls, after all, disputes about FC, in my opinion, go beyond the boundaries of this Temko.
... HP Panasonic ... no offense.

We must move to another topic.

[Natalie]

Natalie will return and, like a gentle girl, she, of course, will not knock on anyone's ears, but she will faint.
Cat take a walk - mouse on the table
While my "KMKZ" does not want to smell delicious, I do not observe the vaunted aroma, but some original MKB has settled, which boils like yeast - so interesting))))
In general, when something worthwhile comes out of the experiment, I will tell you in detail. So far, I have a suspicion that despite the CZ, malt is needed here, which I did not buy.

I didn't buy maltose molasses (I haven't bought it yet), but I bought dark agram and panifarin.
Can they be put together in rye?

[There is nothing conflicting about the agram, so he does not put panifirin.]

Well, let's see the composition.
Agram, Panifarin and other improvers, starters, malt additives, products
panifirin
Ingredients: wheat gluten, "Panifarin - concentrate" (ascorbic acid, enzymes).
Benefits:
-applications: the dough becomes more plastic, its processing becomes easier; recommended as an addition to other improvers and leavens.

Look there gluten + enzymes. For me it is such a strong reagent, more important than agram.
================

dark agram is called a leaven improver, but
Ingredients: swelling wheat flour, citric acid, fried malt flour, calcium acetate, sugar color (E 150c)
says nothing about sourdough, there is only an acidic environment, a yummy for yeast and a preservative against mold. Closer to the gustatory aspect.

There is nothing conflicting about the agram, so he does not put panifirin.
Both have an acidic environment and dopgluten. I mean, don't shift the gluten. The rest of FIG.

Svetochka, I'm not strong in such additives And I have some kind of agram, why I bought I do not remember

[fffuntic]

fffuntic, Lena, before asking here, read the topic (to the cat. You give a link), but did not find an answer.
Thank you for the clarification

why I bought I don't remember

Perhaps for rye bread

Perhaps for rye bread

Perhaps, but I can do well without it too ..
I ask the audience for help, my husband demands a wheat-rye ciabatta with onions, who has such experience ... I will bite him, this is my revenge for being in the city for a long time

Well girls

Rye flour spoils wheat flour. Therefore, it must be pacified. Calm down with an acidic environment and / or enzymes - bioactive substances. An analogue of enzymes is our starter culture with MKB, that is, an active improver for rye flour.
Gluten Free Wheat Bulk are all gluten enhancers in the wheat portion. They do not affect the rye part.
So let's see what we have:
agram: the malt there is fermented, killed, just tasty - it gives a flavor and, like sweetness, is eaten by bacteria and yeast. Delicious and truncated, promotes good fermentation, active. Calcium is a preservative for mold. Sugar color ... you know.
Lemon is an acidic medium for the rye portion. USYO .. all activity to curb the rye part.
That is, it is a weak improver of the chemical part, if there is a lot of rye flour in the composition, it works more to taste and will be good in mixed bread.
But panifirin seems to have active enzymes. It is calmly put into the dough with 80 percent rye flour.
The rest is acid and gluten. At first glance, it is stronger as an improver. Especially since enzymes are not listed. But I suppose they are designed to curb the nasty properties of rye flour.
Put the two enhancers together. Lemon + ascorbic acid do not conflict, gluten in both is gluten, calcium itself, colors and killed malt are like sugar in itself, enzymes active for rye flour. Well, why conflict there?

Well, girls, okay, they'll figure it out. What should I do? 350 gr. wheat I put 50 gr. rye, and even wheat grade 1. How many lemons to pour? Is the tablespoon enough?

[Vital,]

Vital, better than any lemon whey (any sour milk, even a liquid from sour cream), actually. Rye flour is trained by lactic acid. And the taste of the bread improves.
You have 50 grams of rye flour - baby talk on the lawn, one-seventh from wheat. This is any wheat and without an amplifier will eat and not choke. And if you improve the strength of wheat, then ascorbic acid works better a little on the tip of a knife.
Therefore, put the lemons so that you like them. You can even score on her

And if you put a lemon in a strong rye dough. That would be the more, the better - so you would have to try the dough. That's how much you can stand to taste. And do not forget to dissolve this joy)))))

[Lena]

Lena,
That's why I see that the bread is delicious even without the lemon.

I just wrote it "to taste", and maybe one of you for this taste like lemon will close up bread. There are no restrictions on whey, but there are lemon vinegars. Otherwise, they generally kill the necessary microbes there.
In short, the proportions are here
How much lemon juice to add to bread dough?
Moreover, if there is a wheat part in the bread, then vinegar is especially dangerous, only in this way it will corrode the wheat gluten, it is worth overdoing it a little.
So, only sour milk is our everything, and the rest must be very careful, according to the standards.

But citric acid has a common effect with the potassium in Agram, it works as a preservative against potato disease and mold in rye bread. Therefore, it is added in small quantities by itself, to "prevent diseases" of bread.Although this is more true if the bread is on for a long time.

I baked bread with a long proofing, kneaded the liquid base (wheat component with water, salt and yeast) for the first 5 minutes of "dumplings", then turned on the French dough program, added malt, rye flour and 1 tbsp. l. olive oil, about an hour before the end of the program turned off and again turned on the French dough, added 1 st. l. wheat flour and at the end of the batch added 2 tbsp. l. onions fried in vegetable oil. Without finishing the program, on a good climb I turned on baking, I was very pleased with the result, my husband said to put more onions the next time, but with that amount it turned out very fragrant. This is certainly not a ciabatta, but I tried to stretch the proofing as much as possible, combined with a "gentle" kneading
Bread with greetings from her husband

The first batch for 5 min "dumplings"
350g of wheat flour c. from.
310ml water
1h l. salt
1h l. saf-levure yeast
Second batch on "French test"
50g rye flour
1dec. l. fermented malt (for a beautiful color)
1c. l. olive oil
Third batch on the "French test"
40-50gr of 1st grade wheat flour
2c. l. fried onions (small onion)

Next time in the last batch I will add more wheat flour - 2 tbsp. l., since fried onions greatly thin the dough, there was a bun, but with a tail, and I thought that I could bake a hearth, but I was afraid that it would spread ... So you can have more flour, I will play with the grade of flour and the last batch I will try a diet program

[Buttercup]

Buttercup, ciabatta recipes for HP are on the site. If interested, look. There is a recipe even in our Temka. I didn't bake myself.
But you probably don't need it anymore.

[Svetochka]

Svetochka, I read, and did as usual in my own way

As far as I know, the ciabatta is not kneaded for a long time, it should have huge holes and a very hard crust.

in their own way

A la "ciabatta"



I baked in the oven - once, not mine.

She does not knead for a long time, she stands for a long time, well, as I understand it

Read about ciabatta from Luda from Canada, if you want more details.

[Svetlana]

Svetlana, throw the link, I can't find

[Svetlana]

Svetlana, throw the link, I can't find

Buttercup, I can not find. Luda's journal deleted

Well, okay, I found an interesting recipe for rye (wheat-rye) ciabatta, I'll try next time

🔗

My husband here recalled a ciabatta from Lenta - rye Vrucel, I was looking for what kind of Vrucel was at one time, it turned out to be a mixture of different additives and improvers, we can't get it, but in terms of dough and crust it looked like what I got today, that is there was no hard crust and very large holes are the same ..

[Buttercup]

Buttercup, according to your link, only Irina Khlebnikova from Kuharka has a real ciabatta. As she correctly noted, a ciabatta should have a characteristic pattern and shape, as well as great large holes in the crumb and crispy crusts like hearth bread with baked goods on a stone. The simplest formulation of flour, water, a little olive oil and salt should give the taste of sourdough bread.

You see, a bunch of people have delicious bread of various fermentation, with holes also full of baguettes, but the ciabatta has a business card - a special shape with a surface + crispy crusts + very large holes. cooler than baguette. Only Irina has a ciabatty appearance. The rest of them know what they taste like, but they turned out a la baguettes, and not an Italian ciabatta.

How many lemons to pour? Is the tablespoon enough?

1 tsp of apple cider vinegar or 1 tbsp of grated apple Antonovka or Bogatyr (those of the most sour varieties) perfectly raise the dough, in which wheat flour to rye is 2: 1.

[Lena]

Lena, of course, then exactly what we bought was not a ciabatta, and the holes are not large and the crust is ordinary. Ciabatta with milk is the same funny, I wanted to change it for at least whey ... In general, it seems like we never ate the right ciabatta

[Mandraik Ludmila]

Mandraik Ludmila, Luda, great bread turned out! and how to replace red malt? can you take leavened wort and how much wet yeast can you take? 1o gram?

[Vika]

Vika, about yeast I will not say for sure, I do not bake on "wet" ones, but I think 10gr with such a long proofing will be enough. Malt yes, can be replaced with wort - 2 tbsp. at the expense of liquid
Bought today "ciabatta", one in Okea ciabatta with olives, another in a private bakery, here are the pictures of cutters:

The crust is present only in a private bakery, but the holes, you can see for yourself, are not very authentic There are large holes, but there are not many of them and they are in fine-pored dough, Lena, do I understand correctly?

Bought today "ciabatta"

I like the top one more, the bottom one looks more like a loaf, in my opinion the dough there was a little thick.

[Buttercup]

Buttercup, and what do I do to you, am I sitting in Italy? type Pane Ciabatta ricetta on YouTube in Italian and watch there ciabatta-chabatta from the chefs, otherwise housewives are also great, but this bread was invented by a pro.
The appearance is in accordance with everything that I know about him, like Irina Khlebnikova. There are even more holes in Italian from the pros. Authentic haven't tried.
But what they sell here would clearly not become a world famous - do you agree?

So below is Okay products, and on top of a private bakery, we drove in today for the first time, drank coffee, they give a puff for free on weekdays. I was just trying to find an authentic ciabatta to show my husband what I need to strive for, or not, he decides what he wants. Sometimes you want to eat something that you didn't do yourself
Lena, I agree with you, and these "ciabatta" are not similar to those from the pictures. I don't really understand a ciabatta for myself, why? Butter on her caviar will fall through the holes, but you can scratch the gum on the hard crust ... but no, my husband was impatient, well, I get excited

In general, we never seem to have eaten the right ciabatta

I have baked many different ciabatts, but I stopped at this one:

Chiabatta in the oven (Idol32)

In terms of taste and crumb structure, it does not fundamentally differ from those that I ate in Italy. Well, maybe connoisseurs will catch all sorts of nuances, but this recipe seemed very authentic to me.
And by the way, ciabatta is not haute cuisine, but simple rustic bread.
However, all this reasoning is off topic.

[Buttercup]

ButtercupIf you knead the dough well before the last proofing, there will be no holes, but the taste should remain.
ciabatta is not haute cuisine, but a simple rustic bread. Legend. Invented by Arnaldo Cavallari, and he started from the legendary works of Raymond Calvel. Arnaldo brought French chic to Italian soil.

🔗
.

from 70 to 1982 he "searched" for this bread. And not even one, but with the help of other pros

🔗

To do, so authentic with holes But while you have to eat what you bought, there is so much bread until the middle of next week ...

Baked rye with panifarin and dark agram. I was guided by the quantity on Elena Bo in the topic "by the type of Vesfalsky", that is, 1 tsp. agram and 2 p. l. panifarin. The bread is excellent in appearance, but sour in taste, I did not like it. It is necessary to change the amount of panifarin. I'll bake with him, I'll look for my own version. Or give it up.

sour, I didn't like it. It is necessary to change the amount of panifarin

Sour because of panifarin? I don't use it, so panifapine is an unknown animal for me.

Sour because of panifarin

Yes.

I don't use it, that's why panifapin is an unknown beast for me

And rightly so.

what was your flour weight? what is the general recipe for the composition?

dosage of agram
approximately 1.0-1.75% to the total mass of flour (I suppose, the more rye, the more)
panifirin dosage
(The dosage of PANIFARIN was determined taking into account the addition of starter cultures).
FLOUR RATIO DOSAGE

RYE: WHEAT PANIFARINA

80 : 20 1,5 – 2,0

70 : 30 1,0 – 1,5

60 : 40 1,0

50 : 50 0,5 – 1,0

40 : 60 0,5

30 : 70 0,5

20 : 80 0,3 – 0,5
I would proceed from the table on panifirin. The limiting value was taken from there, and in total, both additives should not exceed the indicator in the table.

Why are you crushing a loaf only for panifirin? there is a sour ingredient in both: lemon for agram + ascorbic acid for panifirin. Then bitter wood salt - calcium of something there in the agram.
It is not yet known where you put the harsh acid. Maybe she just went overboard.

I see that with the very rye composition, the total amount of additives should not exceed 2 percent of the flour weight, and agram in these percentages should not be higher than 1.75.

Have you sustained it?

do not fucking immediately figs, maybe also like it. There are punctures, nothing is experienced

Good evening))
Please tell me about the choice of a bread machine.
I had a programmable HP Binaton for 3 years. I baked and plan to bake mainly sourdough bread.
Now I'm choosing a new HP and from the reviews I realized that Panasonic is the coolest))) Hence the questions:
1. There is no programmable Panasonic. Can I bake bread with sourdough and whole grain flour on it? Does anyone bake such bread? And if so, on what models and what modes?
2. Does the dispenser only work with raisin baking modes? Is it possible to bake bread with additives? Do you even need it, a dispenser?
3. I choose between models 2501 and 2511, I found a difference in 4 modes - in 2511, the main low-yeast and main with filling and the same dough modes were added. Is there a difference besides this?

Thanks in advance to everyone who will respond)))

[Marina]

Marina, I have a Panasik 2511 with a dispenser for additives, I only insert it when baking bread with additives, and so I have it next to HP, because this is the fastest breaking part according to statistics. Dispensers are needed for automatic addition, that is, they put everything in and went to bed, and there everything is already mixed and added. In stoves without a dispenser, it is necessary to add by handles on a signal xn. I don’t really like the dispenser, it “bangs” very much, so I don’t put such programs at night, you can become a stutter from the sound of a triggered dispenser, and for some reason he also “bangs” 2 times in a row, apparently if suddenly with first time not woke up worked, so for sure.
In pansik they also bake with sourdough, here on HP there are many such recipes, and you can bake the same with whole grain flour in panasik, there is even a special program - Diet bread and dough. The instructions include recipes with whole grain flour.
Here you can see the comparison table of pansik models Bread makers Panasonic SD-2500, SD-2501, SD-2502, SD-2510, SD-2511, SD-2512 ... (4) # 1441
I think you will not be mistaken when choosing a pansik, I have this third stove and I cannot imagine better than it. Good luck!