Starter cultures - in questions and answers

[Lena]

Lena, Thank you!
There is a lot of information on sourdoughs and breads on the forum, see, read and use
And most importantly, there is no need to be afraid, the experience will come gradually, provided that you work with the test

Good day to all!
Experienced bakers, please answer the question: what is the difference between these many types of starter cultures, or rather bread baked with them?
I have been baking bread for a little less than 2 years. I use the most common rye (for rye bread) and wheat (for wheat bread) leaven, bred in a 1: 1 ratio.
I read a long list - hop, dairy, potato, rice, all sorts of different foreign names and complex recipes, and I don't understand why people suffer like this .. But at the same time I understand that it's not just that)
Tell us about how and why you chose other, often more difficult starter cultures
and what are the results?

why do people suffer like this .. But at the same time I understand that it's not just that)

People do not suffer at all, believe me. If there is an opportunity, it’s interesting, you can get different types of sourdoughs ... and still get an excellent result when baking bread, why not experiment with ingredients and sourdoughs.

Taste our leavens too, choose, bake and evaluate both the quality of the leavens and the quality of the resulting bread

Admin, I don't mean that these torments are excruciating)) I myself clearly understood this thing for myself: "I can't help but eat my own bread, just as I can't help but bake it."
I just want to hear from a guru how bread is fundamentally different with this or that kind of leaven. After all, if you read the recipe for Desem or Levito Madre .. - you can at least ask a question: bread is better on them .. and what?

[AnnaL]

AnnaL, wait, listen, it was always interesting too.
The only thing I can say about the lievito madre is that it is for baking, that is, it raises, for example, Easter cakes better.

After all, if you read the recipe for Desem or Levito Madre .. - you can at least ask a question: bread is better on them .. and what?

To do this, you should read the reviews of those who bake bread with these leavens. on our forum.
Or bake bread yourself with each of these leavens, since each of us has different tastes. I do not undertake to evaluate the leavens "for the eyes"

Personally, I chose one of the least capricious in my conditions, at the same time active and practical for me.
This is wheat KM 100%.
I use serum, because I have it all the time.
I bake everything on it.
There was an experience of breeding other ferments, but it seemed to me more troublesome there.
I cannot estimate the difference in taste and stability of the results in comparison with other leavens. Firstly, it was a long time ago, and secondly, there are so many different components in each product that I somehow don’t dare to distinguish among the whole bouquet the action of only and precisely leaven.

Admin, but if I ask you well ..? Of course, I will try, only to choose which one to start with, you must at least have some motive - say, good reviews from other bakers.
I am interested in your opinion on this or that (or this or that) type of leaven.
Which one is your favorite and why do you prefer her?

why do you prefer it?

My choice is due to the economy, affordability, hassle-free and stable results.
Sometimes the choice is dictated by the sourness in the final product.
Someone likes it in certain quantities, some don't. This acidity depends both on the composition of the leaven and on its strength, because with sooooo long proofing and relatively fast proofing, all other components of the dough also behave differently, and, accordingly, affect the taste of baked goods differently.
Those.sourdough is the same yeast. What exactly and for how long they eat during proofing, and how they transform the composition and taste of the components, depends on the specific recipe.
Good luck!

Tanyusha, nothing, what got in?

To do this, you should read the reviews of those who bake bread with these leavens. on our forum.

Yes, I tried to do this, but apart from "it (the leaven) smells of peaches or flowers" or "the bread turned out .. mmmm" I did not find a really comparative analysis. More emotion. I am also not deprived of them, I really like to talk with my leaven, I admire when it is magnificent ..
but still I want to see expediency in every business: since I spend a lot of time and food, this should be justified at least by improving the quality of the bread obtained, right? I am sure that I am not the only one who will benefit from opinions on this matter ..

Your beloved and why do you prefer her?

Wheat bread on old dough dough (oven)

Wheat bread made from old dough (Admin)

Wheat-rye bread on sour (old) dough (oven) (Admin)

Admin, thanks, but they are all yeast ..?
Then I'll ask you this: did you make bread on Levito Madre and Desima? The result is interesting - are the labor costs justified (just for you)?

[Anna]

Anna, I have already answered your questions

[Olga VB]

I fully agree with Olga VB... I don't even know what my leaven is called, sometimes I accidentally killed it, but quickly started a new one with sour milk. The last bread without any special sourdough turned out - I poured two glasses of c / w flour with old whey and left it warm, after 8 hours, while the starter was accelerating separately, quite unexpectedly it turned out to be a gorgeous dough. :-)

[AnnaL]

since I spend a lot of time and food, then this should be justified at least by improving the quality of the resulting bread

AnnaL, and what do you mean by quality? If you bake bread on properly grown sourdough and use good flour and other products, and follow the kneading, proofing and baking technology, then you will get high-quality homemade bread. With whatever leaven you can grow.
As for the taste of the bread, no one is there to advise you. As they say - one likes watermelon, and the other likes pork cartilage.

I never estimate labor costs and the cost of bread. If the recipe itself is interesting, then I am mentally already prepared in advance for labor costs and even more for the cost of the ingredients spent. If we approach baking from this position, then we take the simplest bread recipe, fast and cheap, and there will be no problems and questions. Only I myself can answer the question "I like this bread or not," but for this you need to bake it myself.

If there is a desire to bake bread, then all the "cost-estimation" problems will remain in tenth place - only one will remain in the first place: the DESIRE TO BAKE BREAD!

And how much bread was fed to the birds and dogs, you can't count! But, without such losses, the baker cannot do.

I poured two glasses of c / w flour with old whey and left it warm, after 8 hours, while the starter was accelerating separately, quite unexpectedly it turned out to be a gorgeous dough. :-)

That's what I'm waiting for - a review from a specific recipe. And I perfectly understand that everyone has their own taste. Only I ask not an objective assessment, but a subjective one - from everyone who wants to share. Sometime someone's opinion (conclusion) already becomes a strong incentive and convinces to do just that. And if there are many opinions, then, having collected them, you can get a more or less objective analysis - which starter gives which result.
After all, how experience is passed from generation to generation: all methods are analyzed and the best ones are selected.
And the forum, as I think, is needed for this: just finding different recipes for sourdough or bread is not a problem, the Internet is full. Forum and valuable EXPERIENCE and its transfer.

I never estimate labor costs and the cost of bread.

It's not about saving at all.
The baking process from start to finish is a miracle. I am also imbued with it, believe me.
But it's strange that I can't hear from anyone even two words, for example, in the "advertisement" of bread on Levito Madre, and not an advertisement for this very leaven. The process itself is probably terribly interesting, but if it does not end with the discovery that bread on it is superior to other types, then it loses its meaning ...

[AnnaL]

AnnaL, I baked cakes on lievito madre, I don't see the point of baking bread on it. It is thick, strong, good for heavy pastry. In terms of the composition of yeast and bacteria, it is unlikely to differ much from a simple "eternal leaven" - perhaps there are differences in their percentage.
It seems to me (I may be wrong) that the ripened leavens are not so different from each other, although they came to this state in different ways. As a result, a stable balance is still formed, which, with proper care, supports itself.

[Sibelis]

Sibelis, Thank you so much. Put in a piggy bank)

it's strange that I can't hear from anyone at least two words, for example, in the "advertisement" of bread on Levito Madre

Bread on Levito Madre does not differ at all from the same on French and raisin sourdough. Although, I only baked a few of these breads for comparison. It was very difficult to keep a lot of starter cultures at the same time. But this Levita herself took a lot of time. I fiddled with her like crazy. She weighed before bathing, then she bathed, weighed again to calculate correctly how much flour should be given to her. She drank up to 20% of the liquid (to her weight) during the bathing ... I had enough for two months. In my experience, it's not worth it.

Hello everybody. For a long time the question has been interesting, and in what proportions to replace yeast with sourdough?

But this Levita herself took a lot of time. I fiddled with her like crazy. She weighed before bathing, then she bathed, weighed again to calculate correctly how much flour should be given to her. She drank up to 20% of the liquid (to her weight) during the bathing ... I had enough for two months. In my experience, it's not worth it.

Why bathe her? I adhere to the dry method, 50 grams of leaven, 25 water and 50 flour, rolled a ball in five minutes, cut it with a cross and into a jar. the first bread was baked on the fifth day of hatching. One jar of Levito on the table, one in the refrigerator. Plus, I also froze and dried it, it is restored literally on the second day. The most hassle-free sourdough I've had.

Well, this is already mysticism and superstition, someone believes in them, I do not
Jin24, no, not mystic, but harsh reality

if I'm not in the mood, the bread will definitely fail, and the family laughs - superstition, they say, don't worry




Members of the forum, tell me what sourdough is the most troublesome? I am not interested in taste preferences, I am not a taster, I cannot grasp these nuances, I am interested in minimal labor costs

For me, so these)))
Raisin sourdough, problems and tips
Rye sourdough (semi-finished product)
Sourdough "The Simplest"
Kombucha sourdough

What is the least troublesome leaven?

For many years, wheat KM 100% ow.
It is easily removed, it survives a 2-week fast, it is not capricious either to flour or to liquid, it perfectly lifts even a rather heavy dough, does not give sourness to baked goods, ...
In general, I am very happy.

why bathe her? I stick to the dry method, 50 grams of sourdough, 25 water and 50 flour

I also do.
Nastya, are you rolling it out with a rolling pin?

Nastya, are you rolling her rolling pin?

oh-oh-oh, also roll out with a rolling pin ...

[Margarita]

Margarita, no, I do not roll it out with my fingers, I flatten it between my palms, for about ten minutes. Then I roll up the ball, cut it and into a jar. She also gets warm from the warmth of her hands. The ball is small, the size of a tennis ball, and you can wrinkle it The main thing is that your hands are clean, without the smell of cream or soap.

Nastya, you

To me on you

[Anastasia]

Anastasia, and what exactly is your order of actions? I mean, you got it out of the fridge ...do you warm for 2 hours? Or immediately separate a little to "form this ball", feed and knead. Whereas with "surplus"
You warm it up, feed it and put it into bread, or you can immediately go into bread dough.
I bake in HP ...

[Margarita]

Margarita, the leavens are on the table under the towel. It's not hot at home, so I don't put it in the refrigerator. In the morning at six I got up, took 30-60 grams each, it depends on my mood, that's how much I pinched off with my fingers, and took as much. I added flour, water, rolled a bun in a bowl and then drive the children to school, and I myself wrinkle this leaven. Crumpled, cut, into a jar. I knead very steeply, the cut is then clear. I collect the leftovers from the sourdoughs in a large bowl, knead the dough, that is, I look at the recipe and pour a little flour, water, knead it, rise a little, add the rest of the ingredients and, depending on the amount of dough, I either let the bread in the oven under the lamp or in a bread machine. It is difficult to tell by the clock when and what I mix, I knead, it’s already necessary to look at the test. But I do a couple of adjustments. And by five o'clock in the evening I usually have bread ready.
If I keep the starter in the refrigerator. In the evening I take it out, it costs two hours, it gets warm. At night I feed, in the morning I am ready. Somehow, I defrosted the dough itself in the refrigerator, I really liked it, but then I get off the usual rhythm and have to sit until two in the morning to bake bread.

If the sourdough is in the refrigerator and I don't bake it, then I take it out every three days, it costs a couple of hours, I fed it, waited a couple of hours and then put it back in the fridge, I put the leftovers on quick pancakes or pancakes.

I got embarrassed, I didn't sign the banana and the grape, they also stand in jars, I feed them separately, but I don't know which one. One of these days I’ll watch and leave the smarter one, otherwise it’s difficult to keep three leavens at once (grape, banana and rye). It is easier to mix one in one hundred grams than two in fifty. And a big piece of dough grows more fun. They are the same in the test anyway.

Yeah, there you are ... and here I read ...

[Trishka]

Trishka,

[grow up]

I take it out of the refrigerator, warm up for a couple of hours and feed everything at once. Everything. I leave grow up on the table, then I separate the required amount and put it in a bucket of HP for kneading + flour + whey + malt and everything else according to the recipe. I make a Kneading on the Pelmeni program for about five minutes. And then I immediately expose the Basic Program.

I really wanted to share. Maybe someone will also be interested. I looked at the forum with a search, it seems that no one posted it. Many people know the baker Sergey Kirillov. This month he began experimenting with leavening. Very interesting. It gives a lot of knowledge about what is going on inside the leaven, why it is so and not otherwise. You can think of it as a lecture, but it grows and talks on the air. He called the lessons “bread solfeggio”. It is for sourdoughs lessons 4.0-4.4 - here is the usual spontaneous rye sourdough as many of us do and KMKZ. only lactic acid bacteria. And then he bakes bread on them. In lesson 5 - makes two leavened leavens.

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Many people know the baker Sergey Kirillov.

yes, subscribed to it on Instagram and YouTube ...

By the way, if you store the starter culture in the refrigerator, which also stores fresh yeast, they must be sealed. And then they will slowly move in

Well, well, well, I just had the yeast next to the sourdough, I didn't keep track of it. How do you know that the leaven has been captured? How to store yeast hermetically?

[Newbie]

How do you know that the leaven has been captured?

Newbie, do not bother. Commercial yeast is very delicate compared to wild leavened yeast. Even if you specifically add them to the sourdough, they will die out there in a maximum of 24 hours.

Newbie, don't bother. Commercial yeast is very delicate compared to wild leavened yeast.Even if you specifically add them to the sourdough, they will die out there in a maximum of 24 hours.

but somewhere I read that, on the contrary, industrial ones are such thermonuclear that they crush everything under themselves

It stuck in my memory too. Therefore, they are produced because they are powerful.

How to store yeast hermetically?

I store it in the freezer, because I rarely use it. They wake up from frost quickly.

It stuck in my memory too. Therefore, they are produced because they are powerful.

Well, there is a threat on the horizon again

I read on our website in some topic about leavens that commercial among the wild do not survive. Moreover, it was an excerpt from an expert's article, and not our amateurish reasoning. If I find, I will give you a link.

Although one can reason like this: if the wild were weak, they would have perished long ago, driven out by the industrial ones. But no! Still alive! And they happily settle in our jars)))



I'll go feed my

Although one can reason like this: if the wild were weak, they would have perished long ago, driven out by the industrial ones. But no! Still alive! And they happily settle in our jars)))

Or maybe they live happily in our industrial jars? they don't have it written on their foreheads, who

I will wait for Svetlana's link, I will study this issue, otherwise it does not give rest

[Newbie]

Newbie, so far only found this topic. Maybe not exactly on your question, but the information is useful.Professional opinion on starter cultures. Reply to my letter
But I remember exactly what I read in some big leavening topic. I'll look for more.

can they happily live in our industrial jars?

I can only judge by circumstantial evidence. Once I tried to bake rye bread with industrial yeast. He demanded a lot of dances with tambourines - it was necessary to add acidifier and panifarin, but most importantly - the bread was very problematic in proofing. It was impossible to touch it, breathe at it and, it seems, even look - it fell off and did not rise again, since the yeast did not have enough "fuse" for prolonged fermentation.
When I started the sourdough, everything became much easier. The bread takes longer to rise, but after lifting it can be put into a baking dish and it will rise again.
My sourdough is already five years old, during this time I refreshed it twice with industrial yeast, when after 3 weeks in the refrigerator without feeding it began to sour too much and did not raise the dough well. I believe that the addition of industrial yeast just temporarily helped the wild yeast change the balance in the yeast in its favor, but then the industrial yeast all died out. I judge by the fact that the properties of the sourdough did not change after such a procedure - the rate of rise of the dough was still incomparable with that given by industrial yeast, and the ability to raise the dough after transferring it to the mold was preserved.
Of course, I cannot do a microbiological analysis of my starter culture, but it perfectly performs its function, and this is exactly what I need from it

Good day! Help me please! I decided to bring out fresh 100% rye sourdough. Now she is 10 days old, she is rising well, all porous. The dough rises 1.5 times, the rye-wheat dough rises weakly, and the wheat dough does not want to rise at all! Previously, at the first sourdough, the bread always turned out wonderful. Tell me what I'm doing wrong, where is my mistake? Thank you!

[LarissaKr]

LarissaKr, your sourdough is still young, so at first it will take a long time to raise the bread, you can add a little yeast to make the rise faster. Yes, before use, the starter culture must be refreshed in 2-3 feeding.

[Our yeast will die out completely no later than it passes]

Or maybe they live happily in our industrial jars?

Our yeast will die out completely no later than it passes 18 hours, but they will improve (speed up) the fermentation process and have time to release a certain amount of alcohol, which will disinfect our "workpiece" from "bad" bacteria.

For a long time this leaven lived with me. She led e as Eternal.

For a long time this leaven lived with me.She led e as Eternal.

on industrial yeast? I wonder what kind of miracle Yudo I grow up would be brought out by someone comparative analysis

Experts, tell me, should the sourdough bun be softer, or what should it be? otherwise I baked bread, but it is straight dryish

Hello everyone!
One of the foreign sites interested in the recipe for the starter culture:

Day 1
50 g whole wheat or rye flour
50 g tap water at room temperature
1 trickle lemon juice (or vinegar, or 1 teaspoon unsweetened natural yogurt, unsweetened)
1 teaspoon raisins
Day 2
50 g whole wheat or rye flour
50 g tap water at room temperature
Day 3
100 g whole wheat or rye flour
100 g of tap water at room temperature
Day 4
100 g whole wheat or rye flour
100 g of tap water at room temperature
Day 5
100 g wheat flour or rye
100 g of tap water at room temperature

INSTRUCTIONS
Day 1
Mix in a glass jar (to see the evolution well), always close the lid without adjustment (it should come out of the generated carbon dioxide) and leave it on the countertop at room temperature for 24 hours. If you're lucky, you may see some bubbles at the end of this period.
Day 2
Add day 2 ingredients. Stir well and let sit for 24 hours on its own. At the end of this time, more bubbles should be visible. You will notice that the liquid tends to settle on surfaces with an unappetizing color. Nothing happens, that's okay.
Day 3
Add half of the previous day's mixture and add the third day ingredients. Stir well and let sit for another 24 hours. You can place a mark on the jar with a marker of the level reached by the test to check its growth. If you are lucky and the ambient temperature is good, you may see activity after this day. The mixture may have swelled somewhat.
Day 4
Toss the mixture from the previous day until only 100g is left and add the ingredients of day 4. Return to mark with a pen and leave another 24 hours at leisure. After this time, it should already work. The smell will change. At this point, you can catch raisins with patience, they are no longer needed.
Day 5
Toss the mixture from the previous day until only 100g remains and add the ingredients of day 5. Re-mark with a marker and leave it in your heart until it is more or less fully fermented, at least doubled in volume, and this can happen before you spend 24 hours. Once the dough starts to rise, you no longer need the added flour to be whole, you can add it white to create a white masterbatter that will allow you to make both white and whole grain breads.
OBSERVATIONS OF A NEW AND BRILLIANT MOTHER'S MASS
After completing the process described, you should have an active starter, which will have to be renewed, i.e., resume pulling half and adding the amount indicated above, every time you see that it is fermented, if you want to keep it in excellent condition ... This is if you keep it at room temperature.
You can also keep it in the refrigerator, where you don't need to update it as often, it may be enough to update it every week. You will find refrescáis, butt and let it ferment, when turned back in full swing to keep in the refrigerator. So you can survive by taking it over to moderate it and renew it once a week. It could be years.
To increase the rate at which fermentation takes place, use whole grain rye flour, it is almost infallible.
USING YOUR MASS: Although it has already fermented satisfactorily, it should be cultured for at least one more week before using it to make bread to develop its potency.
Yeast activity is highly temperature dependent. In the middle of summer and with good wholemeal flour this thing runs at full speed (it might even happen that the first day and fermentation, it happened to me). On the other hand, in winter, if your kitchen is cold, it may even take more than 4 or 5 days to pick up the flight.
POSSIBLE PROBLEMS WHEN PREPARING SQUARE
It didn't work out after 5 days - nothing happens, you're not a bad bread. You will have to continue with the same snack regimen for a few more days. But have faith, you will get it. And if you have any doubts that your starter is in perfect condition (because it smells funny or has strange colors), you drop it and start over. It happened to all of us.
It looks like the dough is active, but it smells like camembert cheese - nothing happens. Some mistakes can have this effect, it happens to me.
This thing threatens to eat my kitchen - if your dough ferments with amazing speed and leaves the jar crawling on the countertop, better than better. Congratulations. The only drawback is that you will have to update it more regularly, in less than 24 hours. This can happen to you in high ambient temperatures. You can do what Dan Lepard recommends, increase the amount of flour in soft drinks compared to the amount of water, that is, add, for example, 125 g instead of 100 g. A smaller proportion of water slows down the growth of small animals slightly. Or put the dough in the refrigerator and Santa Pasquas.
POSSIBLE PROBLEMS WHEN THE MASS ALREADY HAS A CERTAIN AGE
This thing is bubbling, but it smells like glue - this happened to me, this is not serious. This is due to the fact that the yeast takes over when the dough already has a certain degree of fermentation (and therefore a certain alcohol concentration) and forms ethyl acetate (adhesive). Updating the dough multiple times often solves the problem, as adding dough to good yeast tends to outperform less good yeast.
The thing has white or gray mold on the surface - this is what nature has. It does what it likes, and there are thousands of bugs in the environment, both yeast, which are suitable for our purpose of making bread as bacteria, and mold, which may not suit us. Remove the mold layer and continue cooling. If mold continues to appear, it's best to drop the dough and start over.

... Usually, it is assumed either sweet or sour at the very beginning of the starter culture. Is anyone familiar with a similar leaven? Please share your opinion.

Experts, tell me, I recently brought out the leaven, baked two bread. I keep the bread in the refrigerator. I noticed that already on the 4-5th day some musty moldy smell appears, there is no mold. From prom. yeast was not like that, it can be stored in the refrigerator for a week. What can b. cause?