Kit
I bake bread based on sourdough, I've seen many places on the Internet about dough, but I just can't understand what is the difference, what is it for?
Irgata
Quote: Kit
starter-based
sourdough is a yeast that raises the dough

dough is the first dough, liquid, kneading like for pancakes, dough helps the yeast to multiply, revive, the dough is checked whether the yeast is live, the dough does not rise - the main dough does not rise

the dough ferments in the same way as the main dough, but once, then the main dough is kneaded on the dough

they make dough either on home-made yeast-leaven, or on industrial
Kit
explained well, why first take the leaven and make the dough, if you can immediately mix the leaven with water and add flour to make the dough, what will be the difference, will the dough rise better or faster on the dough?
Irgata
Kit, in essence, sourdough is a dough, i.e. dough = yeast + flour + liquid

but if you make a sourdough dough, then just feed your sourdough, letting the yeast grow more

for industrial yeast, dough is desirable - yeast is needed several times less, they will grow in the dough, and check the yeast for * germination *

for industrial yeast - sponge dough takes longer to cook, there is no big difference in taste
Kit
can correct it, if I do something wrong, I take out the leaven from the refrigerator, it stands idle there for a week, I bring it to room temperature, I feed it per 100 g of leaven, add 100 g of flour + water in equal proportions, then when the leaven rises 2 times (after 3-4 hours) I take half of it, that is, 100g and knead 1kg of dough on it, I put the remaining 100g of sourdough in the refrigerator the next time, so I really want to know, initially I do the right thing when I add the sourdough from the refrigerator to 100g 100g (flour + water) or do you need other proportions?
Irgata
Kit, ,take a look there are * starter * topics on the forum, the girls describe everything very carefully, although if you created The difference between sourdough and doughthen you were on this page

I don’t fool with sourdough, I make a long cold fermentation dough with a small amount of industrial yeast for bread and flat cakes, on a dough

Sikorka
Please tell me the topic with the recipe for cold fermentation.
I have no time with sourdough, I'm looking for a way to optimize the time. I also don’t understand the meaning of the dough if there is a lot of leaven.
Anchic
Yulia, dough is preliminary feeding of yeast, unhurried, so that lactic acid bacteria can also accumulate, which give a wonderful aroma to bread. That is, you can bake bread in a bread maker for 3.5 hours. But this bread will be crumbly, less aromatic, with less elastic crumb, because lactic acid bacteria have not yet developed there. And for the prom. yeast of this time was quite enough.
Therefore, they came up with a dough - they take a small amount of yeast and put part of the dough in advance, at least 4 hours, preferably longer. The yeast will gradually multiply and will then be able to produce more dough. And slowly but surely lactic acid bacteria multiply. Then we add more flour / water / the rest of the ingredients and we already get the dough, which we will bake (well, after the rise and proofing). Such bread is more aromatic, crumbles less, the crumb does not crumple into a lump - when compressed, the crumb straightens back.
But in the test for prom. yeast lactic acid bacteria are few, because they are there only from the environment. But in the sourdough, we deduce a symbiosis from wild yeast and lactic acid bacteria. And there are already a sufficient number of them, in relation to yeast. Therefore, sourdough bread will be even tastier and more aromatic. But at the same time, it has a peculiarity - a slightly overripe leaven will already give sourness to the bread, since the bacteria will produce a fairly large amount of acid.Sourdough at home, when baked, is usually stored in small quantities every few days. In order for it to lift bread, it needs more - yeast needs to be multiplied. Therefore, the sourdough can also contain a dough stage - feeding the sourdough from the refrigerator to the amount required for baking bread.
Now I will look for a couple of recipes with ripe dough - this is for the prom. yeast starts a little dough and goes to the refrigerator. And then added to the dough after a couple of days. From the finished piece, pinch off a piece of dough again and into the refrigerator. Etc.




Here is the first recipe
The difference between sourdough and doughWheat bread on ripe dough (self-leavening)
(Viki)

Here is the second Wheat bread on old dough dough (oven)
Sikorka
Thank you! Is it possible with sourdough too?
I have rye sourdough. I usually bake pies and pita. But the test is difficult. Not yet mastered what and how. Grandmother did not calculate anything at all, it was by eye.
Anchic
Quote: Sikorka
Is it possible with sourdough too?
So - how's that? Making sour dough? The leaven is already this "ripe dough". But I do not recommend leaving it in the refrigerator for several days without feeding - it will sour very much. That is, after feeding the starter culture, keep it on the table for 1 hour and put it in the refrigerator for a maximum of 3 days (at a temperature not lower than 10 degrees). Okay then.
Now I only bake Darnitsky (rye-wheat) with sourdough. White has ceased, because the slightest gap in time and there will be an excess of acid in the leaven, which will affect the sourness in the taste of the bread. In my family, no one likes sour white bread, unlike rye-wheat bread. Therefore, I bake wheat either on dough or on ripe dough.
teara
sorry to interfere. But I'm also constantly looking for ways to make my life easier. Yulia, the question is in the addition of industrial yeast.
My sourdoughs often get too sour, and I add them a little bit for flavor, but the dough is raised by store yeast, otherwise the bread would be very sour. That is, I use the sourdough as a ripe dough, but the sourdoughs are easy to shift and get excess acid.
Crown
And I switched from rye sourdough to thick wheat sourdough long ago, it is less capricious and does not acidify bread like rye. Even rye bread is not sour, even though I make it on whey.

Today on TV I watched a program about the history of San Francisco, where in one historical bakery they have been leading sourdough since 1849, they take care of it, care and nurture it. They have it thick and sour, and if the translation was correct, add a little bit to the finished yeast dough just for the authentic sourness. Local tradition.
teara
My favorite is wheat sourdough for wheat dough, rye for rye, although many of them are very troublesome to have.
ANGELINA BLACKmore
I started with eternal rye, then, of course, there was a reborn wheat (and kept two). Now I practice a sourdough fed with whole grain wheat flour. I take everything in equal proportions (starter, water, flour) - it turns out to be a rather thick mass. Approximately 4-5 days pass until the next communication with her. Behaves remarkably, does not overoxidize much. By the time of use, it already has the consistency of the dough a little thinner than the pancake - for me the most it.
I always put the dough overnight, so that in the morning I knead any dough, even rye, even noble white (I put the dough, of course, on the flour from which the dough itself will be kneaded)
Periodically "baluyu" his leaven with raisin water)))
In general, the subject of starter cultures is a very interesting matter.
Newbie
Quote: CroNa
And I switched from rye sourdough to thick wheat sourdough long ago, it is less capricious and does not acidify bread like rye.
but mine is still sour
Newbie
Are there any norms for the amount of dough from the total amount of flour? Well, if I bake bread from 500 g of flour, how much flour from this weight can I take for dough?
Anchic
Newbie, here's what I found:
Quote: Admin
Traditionally, in Russia, wheat bread dough is prepared in a sponge way using ordinary dough.Modern methods of making dough in factories in a continuous and continuous method with intensive kneading rely on large thick doughs (70% of all flour, 24C, steam ferments for 4 hours, dough for 25 minutes) and liquid doughs (30% of all flour, ferments for 3-4 hours , dough 0.5-1 h).

Plain (traditional) dough
½ the amount of flour
2/3 the amount of water
The whole amount of yeast (0.5-1% by weight of flour in the recipe).

Dough is thinner than the dough in consistency. It is kneaded only until the mixture is homogeneous (until there are no lumps of flour in the mass). T 28-32S. Duration of fermentation 3-4.5 hours. Adding small amounts of salt to the dough improves the dough and dough and the quality of the bread.

In Estonia and other Baltic countries, wheat dough is prepared in a dispersed phase.
You can go to the main article using the quote link. Here's another interesting thing about Lyudmila's dough 🔗
Newbie
Anna, Thank you!
but I wonder why they take 70% for thick doughs, and 30% for liquid ones
need salt in the next. pour it into the dough once, although I don't understand how it improves it




went to Lyudmila, there she found the answer:
In order to prevent too strong destruction of gluten in the dough, to prevent the thinning effect of protease, 0.1-0.2% salt is added to the dough.

how far I am from all this chemistry - lipase, amylase, protease
Crown
Quote: Newbie

Are there any norms for the amount of dough from the total amount of flour? Well, if I bake bread from 500 g of flour, how much flour from this weight can I take for dough?
I don't know how it's supposed to, I'll tell you how I do it: I take all the liquid, salt, sugar, various additives and spices, butter and flour from 1/3 to half of the total amount into the dough. Then all that remains is to add flour.
Newbie
Quote: CroNa
I don't know how it's supposed to, I'll tell you how I do it: I take all the liquid, salt, sugar, various additives and spices, butter and flour from 1/3 to half of the total amount into the dough. Then all that remains is to add flour.

and the truth is - why not, but I never did that. I'm afraid it will overripe with sugar - I put it in the refrigerator for the night and until evening. With butter, my dough is always poorly suited. I bake it with sourdough. Here you have to think.
And so the option is good - I came home from work in the evening, and you have everything ready, and you don't really need to puff
And you don't need to count the liquid, it's also a plus, otherwise solid higher mathematics turns out - count for the leaven, how much you added to the dough, write down, how much is left to add - do not forget
Palych
Galina, and how long do you keep it and at what temperature? How much yeast?
I did this before, poured all the water and the same amount of flour (100% pulish turns out) and the rest of the flour IMMEDIATELY after kneading (I interfere with HP and left it there), in theory, this temporary hat does not interfere with the dough. And the butter in almost all recipes was poured (by eye) after the second / last batch, in the programs it beeps at this time. Rast immediately. oil is not recommended to be added, it will affect tricky processes there.
Anchic
Quote: Palych
Rast immediately. oil is not recommended to be added, it will affect tricky processes there.
You don't need any oil right away. It envelops proteins, as it were, and prevents gluten from developing. Therefore, it is often recommended to moisten the flour with water (sometimes even without yeast), let the dough stand for 20-30 minutes, and then add everything else.
I'm now baking on ripe dough. I do this - I mix flour with water and a piece of ripe dough, yeast is also there right away. HP on the dumplings mode for 5 minutes the dough interferes. Then I separate the dough piece for the next time. I add butter, salt and sugar to the bucket, turn on the main dough. The kneading begins in 30 minutes, just the proteins will swell and the gluten will develop.
Palych
Quote: Anchic
I'm now baking on ripe dough.
I have not tried it, I have been using liquid yeast for six months already.
I just put a dough according to the Gala method, that is, according to the scientific Big Liquid, I have never done it for all these years. Let's see what happens.
280 ml liquid yeast + tbsp. a spoonful of honey (even we have a standing bowl with honey on the table began to play like, I can climb there with wet spoons, put this honey on bread) + tea salt with a slide + h. l.dark malt (there is only this and a lot), in theory, even in white bread it is useful, when I read that its presence somehow affects the structure of the dough, that it is connected with sugars, their transformation into a more digestible form and all that ... flour a / c immediately added 100g, but then brought up to 125, even a very liquid dough, right when kneading in cotton squirts and filled up the rest of 375 grams. flour. Under such a fur coat, it should not become aired, and it does not interfere with oxygen.
Yogurt mode - 6 hours.
Newbie
Quote: Palych
Yogurt mode - 6 hours.

high temperature for yeast
Palych
Newbie, tested, norms.
Crown
I also had problems with butter before - if you immediately mix it with flour, then the dough does not fit well, and then mix the butter into the finished dough, it’s still hemorrhoid, but one smart person (ay, answer who it was) prompted me an interesting method used in bakery - dispersion. Oh, how my life has become easier, now even the c / s of bread began to turn out to be lush, light and high.
I do this: in a small amount of liquid (I have different whey or broths) I dilute 2-3 tablespoons of a thick mature sourdough, add a teaspoon of salt, a table sugar, a couple of tablespoons of vegetable oil (if baking, then also eggs or only yolks) , beat it all with a mixer or a hand whisk until a homogeneous emulsion, then add all the liquid according to the recipe and that same 1/2 or 1/3 flour and grass seeds. Everything, the dough is ready, it remains to wander at room temperature from 6 to 12 hours (the longer, the more sour the bread will be).
Then I mix the remaining flour into the ripened dough, throw the dough into the bread maker, put on the "yeast dough" program and after 1.5 hours I get an excellent dough, give an additional proofing for 40 minutes, then "bake" and voila, the bread is ready! :-)
Newbie
Quote: CroNa
and after 1.5 hours I get an excellent dough, I give an additional proofing for 40 minutes, then "baking" and voila, the bread is ready

the method is good, not stressful, but salt inhibits the yeast, it is not recommended to add it to the dough (thoughtful), although a little salt to prevent the destruction of gluten turns out to be necessary.
and what does "additional proofing 40 min" mean?

no, I'll try to do it anyway, suddenly I really like the result - the easier the process, the better, and cooking with sourdough is very troublesome
Crown
Newbie, about the additional 40 minutes - I have a leavening dough, and it ripens a little longer than with industrial yeast. The programs in the KhP are not designed for leavening, but sometimes it happens that at the end of the mode the leavening dough also has time to rise well after kneading. It all depends on the degree of maturity of the dough and the amount of flour in the last tab - the less it is, the faster the dough will ripen.
Regarding salt, according to my observations, a moderate amount does not inhibit the work of a vigorous leaven. Again, I immediately put everything (salt-sugar-butter) prescribed in the recipe into the dough.
By the way, we bake bread in brines from various pickles, oyivka, I also use a decoction from home-made pasta, potato and even corn decoctions, and they are extremely salty. :-)




In addition to the "extra time", I, if not a fan, then a big fan of long proofing, therefore I am in no hurry to turn on the baking, knead the dough and let it rise again. Especially if the flour turned out to be so-so, weak, and it is clear that the dough fits very sluggishly, then an extra crush adds some vigor to it.
Newbie
Crown, ah-ah, in this regard, but I thought after a workout.
I also bake with sourdough, I have to keep track of the proofing, and I stopped crumpling, otherwise you won't wait at all. Here, somehow, until 4 at night, I swarmed, the dough still didn’t fit
Crown
Newbie, one kneading is done by HP according to the "yeast dough" prog, but after it the leavening dough may need another 40 minutes (plus or minus), it all depends on the strength and amount of the leaven in the dough, but sometimes I still knead the dough after a full rise, but this already in + to the described algorithm.That is, it is quite possible to get a well-mixed and fermented dough in two hours, and for 2.5 it is simply guaranteed. And yes, you can speed up the process a little if right after the end of the "dr. T." turn on "yogurt", whoever has it, it goes faster on heating.
Palych
Quote: Palych
... never in all these years. Let's see what happens.
Stopped my b. liquid ... can be seen from the footprints on the bucket, which rose half a time (not high) and a long time ago. I had to add dry yeast.
Newbie
Quote: CroNa
Newbie, one kneading is done by HP according to the "yeast dough" prog, after it the starter dough may need another 40 minutes (plus or minus), it all depends on the strength and amount of the leaven in the dough, but sometimes I still knead the dough after a full rise, but this is already in + to the described algorithm. That is, it is quite possible to get a well-mixed and fermented dough in two hours, and for 2.5 it is simply guaranteed. And yes, you can speed up the process a little if right after the end of the "dr. T." turn on "yogurt", whoever has it, it goes faster on heating.

In my stove, the kneading goes on after 50 minutes. after kneading - neither here nor there.
The longer the dough is fermented, the more sour it is, and after kneading, the proving time increases.
I have heating. Once I used it when the dough did not fit well - well, it turned out sour, threw out the bread.




Quote: Palych
Stopped my b. liquid ... can be seen from the footprints on the bucket, which rose half a time (not high) and a long time ago.

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