Starter cultures - in questions and answers

I also feed my overfeeding whole grain, but with water. In principle, I constantly have serum, it would be possible to conduct KMZ on it, but I'm afraid to over-oxidize ...
I already often make bread with whey and even make a starter from a water starter with whey.
Can you tell us more about Emochka? What kind of animal, where to get it or how to make it, how to use it and for what starter cultures?
the original rye did you also have KMZ or on the water?
Is proofing 8 hours after the last kneading in the same container?
And what would be “wrong” with it if it happened at room temperature for a shorter time?
Do you "quench" lactic acid bacteria when proving in a wine refrigerator or, for other reasons, are you more comfortable with a longer proofing?
Or is it a technology and the usual result will not be otherwise?

Emochki (effective microorganisms) were discovered by a Japanese microbiologist, combining photosynthetic, lactic acid and some other useful microorganisms in one bottle. This culture kills all pathogenic flora. There is a lot of information on the Internet, look. It can be used not only for ferments - and as a fertilizer, and as a healing agent for humans, and much more.
My sourdough was started immediately with lactic acid, because we need these bacteria - they process phytic acid from the shells of the grain. But, as I understand it, ferments can be converted into different types, as long as the temperature regime is observed.
Cold proofing takes place in a Kenwood bucket, it's so convenient for me - I kneaded before work, baked after work. Or kneaded in the evening, baked in the morning. Long-term cold proofing is also used in yeast dough, this contributes to the better development of gluten, allows bacteria to fully work (start digesting for us) in the dough, without acidifying it to the extent that it would occur in warmth.
By the way, sometimes I just leave the bucket of dough on the table, and the proofing goes on as usual, but faster, so you have to look. And the result is always good and depends on the flour and the freshness of the sourdough - if it peroxides, then the bread can also sour just a little.

[Kalmykova]

Kalmykova, Thank you!
I just didn't understand everything:
You immediately knead everything completely and leave it for proofing, or all the same, first with the help of your KMZ as a starter, you make a starter (feed, etc.), let it ripen for some (how many?) Hours, then knead and then this cold proofing for 8 hours, right? Or?
At first, the starter culture is fermented from the starter starter (usually 50 g of the primary starter starter + 150 g of flour and 150 g of whey) at 26^aboutFrom 12-14 pm, the sourdough is prepared until it is doubled, then kneading with an intermediate "rest" of the dough, then molding, then proofing for 3-6 hours (depending on the weather in the kitchen and the activity of the sourdough (I have more active rye), then baking in a cauldron in the oven.
This is a diagram for everyday bread.
Wheat rye turns out well, and wheat rye is naughty from time to time, and it is not always clear why.
I'm looking for a reason.
Is your test preparation different?
By the way, I try not to keep the dough in a metal bowl for a long time, I prefer glass, food grade plastic or enamel containers.

I looked about Emochki on the Internet, found only agricultural use, something like a fertilizer and an activator for compost processing ...

My sourdough has long been fed "by eye". Pour whey into a container with the remains of the starter culture, stir and add flour 150-200 g (to make a thick "dough") and send it to her refrigerator. This manipulation, for example, in the evening. In the morning, the leaven was already all bubbled, i.e.ready to use. She has this condition for a couple of days. For kneading, I select almost everything, again fill in the remains with serum, etc. If there is a leak. I haven't used it for 3 days - in the toilet, and again.
For bread, the selected sourdough (about a glass and a half - all for a long time by the eye), pour whey, add salt-sugar, stir in a Kenwood bucket, add flour, sesame and flax seed, and knead until gluten develops, then add a little oil. The dough is thin. I send them in the same bucket for cold proofing. The stainless steel bucket doesn't bother me too much.
After taking it out of the refrigerator, I fold the dough a couple of times, divide it into loaves (2-3 pieces), again fold it into molds. Proofing takes place on a vegetable dryer, that is, heated, in tech. hour and a half. I put the oven in a cold oven, and the dough is still suitable there.
About Emochki. We sell them in Organic Farming Clubs. And there are brochures with application examples. Yes, they are used for fertilizer and compost, also for treating seeds before planting, etc. But besides that, you can disinfect garbage containers, process refrigerators inside, treat wounds, burns, mosquito bites, bees, rinse your hair, and much more. ... Even drink.

How to store to feed the correct uterine starter culture? And yet, how to activate the starter correctly?
If it has already been written about this here, so as not to leaf through the entire immense forum, poke me into this place, I will be very grateful.)))

[Sergei]

Sergei, the principle of almost all starter cultures is the same. Take a look HERE

Thank you so much.)

I found a sourdough for sale - Rye, Khleborost, produced by Yar-iskon LLC, manufactured for Sourdough Dom LLC. Ingredients: whole grain rye flour, water. Has anyone tried it? Is it worth taking?

The composition is normal. if the technology isn't broken either, then why not give it a try?
But it is so easy and convenient to breed that it is probably better to grow your own. Then you will feel her character, and you will better understand what is happening to her, what she wants at the moment, how to prepare and use it in baking ...
You can, of course, use the store as a starter.

The composition is normal. if the technology isn't broken either, then why not give it a try?
But it is so easy and convenient to breed that it is probably better to grow your own. Then you will feel her character, and you will better understand what is happening to her, what she wants at the moment, how to prepare and use it in baking ...
You can, of course, use the store as a starter.

That's right, it's like a child.

[Olga VB]

Olga VB, I haven't tried to make my own sourdough yet, I read about it on the forum, it seems it's so difficult everything)) Not everyone succeeds. I thought maybe everything is easier with the purchased one, I sprinkled it like yeast and it's done

Namesake, do not be afraid - no more difficult than any other housework - the eyes are afraid, but the hands do.
Personally, I grew mine according to this instruction, there are 6 more pages of comments, everything is very detailed and accessible: 🔗
I liked the method because you don't have to throw anything away, and you get a good result.

with the purchased one, everything is easier, poured like yeast and you're done

This will not work, you will have to tinker with any leaven, so, IMHO, the game is not worth the candle.
But if it is very scary, then you can conduct a purchased one. But for this you also need to know and understand the processes. And the easiest way to study them is by drawing your own.
Something like this.

[Olga VB]

Olga VB, there it is !!! Thanks for the advice and reference, I'll study it.
I'm afraid to make sourdough, since I've already tried many recipes with yeast (I'm a beginner in baking), got used to them, felt the bun, and then I read that the yeast dough is different from the sourdough dough, will you have to count the number of ingredients there? I hoped that dry store-bought starter culture would just replace dry yeast and the whole recipe would not have to be counted, naive

If you already feel the dough, then it will not be difficult for you to switch to sourdough and / or baking bread in the oven or oven - this is also a matter of experience.
As for the recipes, there are many of them here on the forum and on the Internet in general.
And then you yourself will be able to adapt any recipes you like.
In fact, there is nothing complicated there, you can master everything if you wish.
Roughly speaking, you don't need to adapt anything, you just remove the yeast from the recipe. Only technology changes.
Do not be afraid, you will succeed. Moreover, both here on the forum and there by reference they will always support, prompt and help.
If you decide to bring out your own starter culture or experiment with a purchased one, I can, if you want, share my experience, with which simple recipes I started when I mastered this science.

Olya, I'm sitting here reading the comments on the link, I got to page 5. I understood correctly, can only rye bread be baked on this leaven?

Not really.
This sourdough (it is usually called "eternal rye 100%") is usually taken out as a basic one - the simplest and most reliable, at the same time very convenient in administration and use.
Then it can be "overfed" into wheat flour, that is, a small part of the sourdough should be started not on rye, but on wheat flour, gradually reducing the initial amount of rye flour to almost 0 (replacing it with wheat).
Personally, I have 2 leavens - eternal rye and overfed wheat from it.
But many do not do this, since when baking products, you can use rye sourdough as a so-called "starter", including for white (wheat) bread or pies.
At the same time, it is taken so little that almost no one will notice its presence in the final product.

How complicated it is
It will still be necessary to re-read everything with a fresh mind While it is not enough that it is clear

My whole wheat flour sourdough gave off blue water on top, girls what's wrong with it?

GOOD TIME OF THE DAY. I HAVE ALREADY MAKE SQUARE SEVERAL TIMES, WITH THE FIRST AND SECOND ONE AND THE SAME AFTER IT'S STANDING IN THE REFRIGERATOR FOR 6 MONTHS, I WILL USE IT ALL THE TIME, BAKE BREAD, BUT I WAS ALWAYS BREAD. THROUGHOUT, THIS IS THE SAME STORY NOW. TELL ME WHAT TO DO?

[SANA1975]

SANA1975how exactly do you use it, describe the technology to make it clear.

I HAVE MAKED KERVASS 3 SPOONS - DAY 1, 3 SPOONS - DAY 2 AND 3 SPOONS - DAY 3, I HAVE GOT 9 SPOONS, (AFTER I SELECT 3 SPOONS AND PUT INTO THE REFRIGERATOR - IT'S ETERNAL). ON THE REST, I KNE THE Dough.
I ALWAYS CHANGE JARS (GLASS), AND I HAVE SHE ALREADY 7 MONTHS, THE FIRST TIME WAS THE SAME, STANDED, SOMETHING 8 MONTHS (THAT IS, I USE IT ALL THE TIME, IT IS NOT WORTHWHEELING FOR).

girls, good evening! Tell me how best to do it. I want to bake Izyuminkin bread tomorrow night, but I leave for work tomorrow morning. What is the "thickening" to make the leaven so that it does not over-acid? In the cold.-ke 3 different starters-ts. s, psh.1s, rzh.

Good day to all, all bakers !!! I have a trivial question. Maybe even a stupid one ... - the recipes give sourdough in grams ... But how do you know, without kitchen scales, how much is it? Art. spoon, two, glass or half? How to navigate? Help the young baker please !!!!

When I didn’t have a scale, I would take a measure, such as a spoon or a glass of the test product, and go to the nearest store.
There I weighed and knew the answer to my question.
It is better to take several measurements, for example, 5 spoons, then the average weight will be more accurate.
In addition, not any scales will show you a small weight, so you can take, for example, 10 tsp, and then calculate the weight of one.
Something like this.
But: it is not very convenient to measure the leaven with a measuring instrument, since it can be all bubbly, or it can be recently stirred. In this case, the weight of the same measure will be very different.
Conclusion. It is better to buy scales, at least the most unpretentious ones.

[Olga VB]

Olga VB , thank you for your answer. I will learn to measure the leaven

Good morning! Tell me please! I brought out the sourdough, I wanted to bake bread, but at night I mixed it up and fed it with rye flour and water, left it, today I look, even got up and bubbled up. Can I knead the dough on it, will it work? Thank you! And what to do next, to feed with kefir? In principle, I managed to postpone the uterine, not fed with water.

Question: when storing starter culture in the refrigerator, how long can you do it without feeding? What to cover, can you close it tightly or do you need a rag? And the second one here: if you took out the leaven, and a liquid formed on its surface and it smells like vinegar - what does this mean?

[amigas]

amigas,
Strong acid odor - sourdough peroxide. Moreover, it is not a fact that it will be possible to reanimate. But try it. A good ripe sourdough should have a fresh, slightly mash smell. Strong alcoholic or acidic odor - has passed. Taste it. If sour, make a new one.

Question: when storing starter culture in the refrigerator, how long can you do this without feeding? What to cover, can you close it tightly or do you need a rag? And the second one here: if you took out the leaven, and a liquid formed on its surface and it smells like vinegar - what does this mean?

Look here: "Sourdough bread - so that it is not sour))" https://Mcooker-enn.tomathouse.com/index.php@option=com_smf&topic=389522.0

Thank you very much who responded! As for the smell, I understood everything, the answers confirmed the hunch that someone was clearly dead there and possibly forever.
I threw out the rye, did not experiment, and the new one just came up.
And I fed the wheat one every 4 hours during the day and then put a loaf on it - it turned out very EVEN! (although it seemed to have risen not as violently as before, but in principle a standard increase in two times occurred and the loaf is soft)
I still do not understand all the processes that are taking place, but it seems that I managed to "revive" as they said.

I am worried about the composition of the starter culture and whether there is a way to find out - what kind of bacteria there are in it - lactic acid or yeast. As I understand it, without yeast, it's still nowhere - they raise bread, but lactic acid = what's with them? How to understand how many are there and how many are needed in general?

Tatiana, thanks for the link, I'll get familiar with it now!

Dear MASTERS! But still! What is the difference between rye and wheat sourdough? Rye for rye dough, wheat for wheat (rzh-psh)? Which one is stronger? And which one is more capricious? Itself for a year now every day I bake psh-rzh bread on wheat sourdough of spontaneous fermentation. And if you feed her with rye flour? What is it fraught with?

Greetings, I set out to make Lievito Madre leaven in water, I started it yesterday, I read everything carefully, but the leaven surfaced after 7 hours, not 48, I don't understand what's the matter? What am I doing wrong? For a day now, the leaven is still floating, that is, it has not drowned 17 hours after surfacing.
Should I throw it out and start over?
If anyone did, please tell me.
I also don’t understand whether it is necessary to change the water every time to fresh?

Dear MASTERS! But still! What is the difference between rye and wheat sourdough? Rye for rye dough, wheat for wheat (rzh-psh)? Which one is stronger? And which one is more capricious? Itself for a year now every day I bake psh-rzh bread on wheat sourdough of spontaneous fermentation. And if you feed her with rye flour? What is it fraught with?

There may be other opinions, but it is not fraught with anything - feed what you want. This does not affect the activity of the leaven for me. Any bread rises. It's not even about the rise - the rise is already a secondary result, namely the fermentation of the dough occurs - it ferments, acquires a fruity taste - this is the purpose of fermentation of the dough. And the leaven doesn't care what kind of flour they feed it. After the refrigerator I feed wheat, I already add rye to the dough, I put it in the refrigerator again with wheat - and we live with it in perfect harmony.

Good day!

There are 3 questions for the starter guru.After reading all the posts, I can not understand in any way, it turns out that the French sourdough must be fed every day? Or is the same scheme applied to it as to MKZ from Admin (that is, to feed 3 times before use)?

I just bake bread once every 1-1.5 weeks .... if you feed it every day, then how much will it turn out in a week?!?

The second question .... From the advice I read that "Try to feed so that the weight of flour during feeding is not less than the weight of the sourdough itself. This means that you cannot feed 50 grams of sourdough in less than 50 grams of flour and 50 grams. water." .... well it turns out ... if initially I had 50 g, I fed them 50 g. flour and 50 gr. water. Then the next day I already have 150 g of sourdough and I need to feed it another + 150 flour and + 150 water? Or how right ???

And the third question ... I started the MKZ, at first it bubbled very well, as in the photo from Admin (the bubbles are large, rose 2.5-3 times)
and the bread on it turned out to be airy, but with each use the bubbles are less and less, although it rises 2 times. I don’t understand what’s wrong .... This is what I have today


Thanks in advance for your reply. I hope I have time to revive my starter culture

Starter girls, do you think anything will come of this?
It was like this ... Several days ago I put in a dough for bread: 100 g of water, 70 g of flour c. from. and 0.5 g of dry yeast (saf-moment), fermentation on the table for about an hour + in the refrigerator for 24 hours. I used half of the dough for bread, 85 grams remained. Today, when the fourth day (after the kneading) was coming to an end, I took out a jar from the refrigerator and this is what I found there:

The dough was covered with small bubbles and had a pleasant smell.
I gave her a little warmth, 15 minutes on the table and added 60 g of flour c. with and 40 g of water:

I left it on the table for another hour, during which time the contents of the jar began to become covered with large bubbles and tripled in volume:

I put it in the refrigerator, on the top shelf.

[Man.]

Man.Experiment! Yeast was given, in theory, it will not turn out sourdough, in the sense to which we are accustomed, but perhaps the old dough. I don’t know, if we feed it all the time, whether fermentation yeast will replace production yeast. Even interesting. My humble knowledge is not enough. Maybe Vika knows? Let's wait.

Maybe, to replace, it is worth feeding only half? That is, take 92 grams for the next feeding (dispose of the rest in bread). I just don't know how much water and flour to add for feeding, 45 grams each, at the rate, as now, water / flour 1: 1?

Damn ... and why didn't I throw it away?

is it worth feeding only half?

Feed half to make it less.

how is water / flour 1: 1 obtained now?

If you feed in the same proportions. you get 100% humidity.

Damn ... why didn't I throw it away?

You can always do it! If you are interested, then do it. The work is not difficult: girl_haha: Then it will be possible to use the old dough and that's it. I usually feel sorry for throwing it away. Sometimes I just collect all the leaven (although I don't collect the old one more than 100 grams), add flour, water, a little yeast, knead it, without any recipe, and bake regular bread. What am I telling you! You will find where. Whether in pancakes or pancakes.

Angel, thanks! To be honest, the most interesting is what will come of all this. I can't dare to start a normal leaven. It seems so difficult.

Nothing complicated. I just ruined the first one. And then no problem at all.

[Man]

Man, can you accept my "five cents" too?
Production strains. yeast - very stable, they were actually removed this way
Therefore, the starter cultures are not rivals to them, in the end the factory ones will overpower ...
And besides, the colonies of strains tend to degenerate, you will have to start a new one ...
I enjoy bread all autumn Vendemic sourdough, I stocked up several kg of grapes, because I like the very first one - fragrant, pink bread ... And for my husband I bake ordinary white bread without sourness on it.
PySy. I forgot to say that I tried a lot of all kinds of ferments for white, so that without sourness. And this one is the fastest and easiest, in my opinion. I started to bake on it in 2010. I am still delighted! Lives with me until May usually, until the field season begins

if initially I have 50 g, I fed them 50 g. flour and 50 gr. water. Then the next day I already have 150 g of sourdough and I need to feed it another + 150 flour and + 150 water? Or how right ???

Why feed everything? Take 10-20 grams and feed. The rest in pancakes or pancakes, so as not to disappear and not to throw away.

Or is the same scheme applied to it as to MKZ from Admin (that is, to feed 3 times before use)?

I have "eternal". I feed them, put them in the refrigerator. Before use (maybe once a week, when more or less often), I take it out and feed it, if I stood in the refrigerator for a long time, then twice, and if for a couple of days, then once.

but with each use, the bubbles are less and less, although it rises 2 times. I don’t understand what’s wrong .... This is what I have today

Try to feed it 3 times and then put it in the refrigerator. Give her rye or whole grain flour.

[Irina]

All autumn I have been enjoying bread on Vendema sourdough,

But I remember that I saw this unusual bread somewhere, but I did not put it in the bookmarks right away. The grapes are waiting for their turn. I was just thinking of looking.Irina, and then the leaven loses color? And her usual care?

[Irin]

Irin, I will take it with pleasure. You, for me, who bake bread on sourdough, are simply the inhabitants of the bakery Olympus.

Production strains. yeast - very stable, they were actually removed this way
Therefore, starter cultures are not rivals to them, in the end the factory will overpower ...

So, I'll take care of it a bit, while the dough will be efficient for some time, and then ... because I will torment you with stupid questions.

Angel, Thank you!

[ang-kay]

ang-kay
Angela, the care is completely normal, I described everything in detail there in the recipe
In short, I feed 1: 1: 1 about once a week; I store it on the shelf of the refrigerator, where it is maintained at 12 degrees C.
On the eve of the day of baking, I activate 1: 1: 1, in the morning I feed it again and wait for the volume to increase by 2.5-3 times and start the dough, putting 50 g for storage. sourdough (I feed it before putting it in the cold, that is, it takes 150 grams for storage).

And about the color: that's why I stock up on grapes only the very first - pink, and then feed it with ordinary flour, like you introduce whitewash into pink paint again and again, the truth, my husband and I catch a special delicate aroma in the next 2 white breads

Mashun, I will be in place - I will always answer, I will be absent from the sanatorium for a short while in a week.

[Ira!]

Ira!

Hello! They brought sourdough from the bakery, but I have never dealt with this thing, please tell me where you can see information on how to take care of this "beast". (while my husband is at work, he will bring the leaven in late afternoon, we need to prepare for the meeting) Thank you!

[Irina. A]

Irina. A , I can't even imagine what kind of leaven they have there
In my opinion, it would be necessary to try exactly those who work with this leaven, they know the feeding algorithm for sure.

[Nagira]

Nagira, I would love to try, but this is a person far from baking, she just asked for a leaven for me, this is not even an acquaintance, but a stranger. I read a little and realized that you can feed the sourdough with flour and water? Of course I will read the topic again, but scary oooo, already horror

Irina, in principle, yes - try to feed in standard proportions 1: 1: 1 - equal amount of "leaven-water-flour" and T = 30, I think your leaven is used to this temperature at the bakery