Repair bucket VM250, master class ...

[sazalexter]

My HP is already more than two years old, it has been used often and it has become so firmly established in our life that without it there is no way. This is especially acute when it suddenly fails. Without it, not only purchased bread but also dumplings-dumplings-pies somehow got used to the dough with handles ...
I checked how the shaft rotates every time before laying. Over the years, it gets easier and easier, but still tight enough. And once he kind of "got used to it," he could still turn it, but it began to rotate suspiciously easily. After some time, I noticed traces of working off on the shaft under the blade. First of all, I wrote "HELP !!!" here. Got an optimistic answer sazalextera, which is not all lost. I scrubbed a little forum and finally calmed down. You can buy a bucket. Both round and regular. In addition, a bucket from Moulinex (like 5002) is great for VM250. But you need to wait a month and a half, and in fact NG is not far off. And it costs so much that you can buy some other useful device ... And today the dotsya said: "Dad, I don't believe that you cannot repair it ..." I taught it ... I had to get down to business, all the more, what a positive experience AlG available. I think many will be interested in "how everything is done inside", so the whole process was recorded. So let's get started. Bottom view "before":

With a screwdriver or a puller, remove the retaining ring that secures the "butterfly". It should be noted that such rings tend to fly away in an unknown direction or roll into a gap, the presence of which you never knew. Therefore, we keep it initially.

In the center of each rivet with a thin drill, one and a half to two mm, we drill a hole to a depth approximately equal to the thickness of the cap. Then, with a thicker drill, five to six mm, we reamed out the hat completely. Using a nail with a hammer, knock out the rivet inside the bucket. The bottom is very thin, it bends easily, therefore, during all these operations, the effort should be minimal. The next photo shows three stages of the last minutes of the life of native rivets:

And voila, we disassembled the non-separable design. Here, in fact, the shaft itself and everything that was "dressed" on it. In order, from left to right: a PTFE ring, an oil seal, a lock washer and a ring from an incomprehensible material (I will then cut it out of something heat-resistant)

And here is the "hero of the occasion", actually the oil seal. His insides turned to dust. I'll go to the car market tomorrow for one. It’s like an ordinary oil seal with an outer diameter of 20 mm and an inner diameter of 10. The only thing that confuses, those that sell here are all black, and this one is red. What does that mean? Is it more heat resistant or is it made of food grade rubber?

I was puzzled by this gasket, which looks like silicone, but as strong as rubber:

If you do not take additional measures, the bucket will leak, but somewhere on the side. I have two options, but both are dubious: either ordinary silicone (but I don’t know how it is with heat resistance) or car white sealant (it is up to 250 degrees, but it is clearly not for consumption inside)
There is also a remark - the shaft dangles relatively strongly in the bronze bushing (bearing). The tip deflects by almost a millimeter. Tomorrow I will consult with our locksmiths how critical this is. But the exact answer to this question will only be given by further operation with a new oil seal ...
To be continued...

Jayfree, you are great! We look forward to continuing.

[Jefry]

Jefry some gaskets can be extruded from silicone molds where high temp is applied. silicone. Automotive sealant can be red and will hold heat. Grease is best used
Shin Etsu G-501 80g 900 RUB (for thermal films) Canon CK-0551-020 20g 800 RUB (for thermal films)
You can buy or ask at the S / C for the repair of copiers.
In an extreme case, silicone fuser oil (Katun) (1000 ml / fl.) 500 rubles is suitable, but it is lively. Silicone should be high temp white.
Here are the tips 🔗
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these 🔗 at 26.21ue

[Jefry, Sazalexter]

Jefry, Sazalexter, I appeal to you with my "HELP !!!"

I previously read, but did not attach any importance, that the lubricant is protruding - this is the development of the unit ... This has happened a couple of times now. I take off the spatula, and there is a little dough with black. I removed this dough, quickly wiped the shaft and the oven then went through the baking cycle. And today I put it on a batch and heard a creak! In certain places, that is, it did not constantly creak, and then, when the kneading was already proceeding more intensively, this creak stopped altogether ... In general, when I took out the dough (baked the loaves), I wiped everything and without a spatula I just twisted the shaft of the bucket, here I heard this creak again. Then bish and I have a problem in this node, but what is it? Grease came out and the parts are just rubbing now, or what do you think? I really look forward to help with advice. If I also need to disassemble and change something, then I will have to do it myself ... Oops! Even drilling ... Is it possible in my situation to try to drop oil on the knot from a pimp for sewing machines? Is it possible while I buy a new bucket to work with this, or can I finally ditch it? Sorry, but as an alarmist - so much aaaaaa. I look forward to hearing from you. Thank you. Nataliya

[Nataliya]

Nataliya Sewing oil (spindle) is not suitable for this
The repair option is seen only by finding a master with a head and straight handles, or replacing the bucket with a new one

[Nataliya]

Nataliyamost likely, a drip will not help. The issue is solved only by replacing the bucket. Better order now, and this is a couple of months with a creak, but it will work. This malfunction has no special side effects, except for the production in the test. Drilling is an experiment that I still cannot call successful. The oil seals, which are in bulk on our market, turned out to be a little larger - the outer diameter is 22 mm, instead of 20. I found a peasant who sells only oil seals, I ask: "Are they the same, but 20 mm in diameter?" He suddenly became sad: "there are, but very rarely, is this for your bread maker?" Then I started thinking about a new bucket. But just in case, I bought the most expensive oil seal from him, as much for 8 hryvnia (1ue). Bribed by the fact that he was red:

I had to go to a familiar turner, who added an extra millimeter:

Now my bucket will be with an implant from the "Riga" washing machine (if I'm not mistaken):

At work, I stocked up with such bolts: "five with a countersunk head", nuts, washers and grovers (if the bolts are not aluminum, then they are required).

The control assembly showed my mistake - the oil seal from the washer is more rigid, has a slightly different design, it becomes tight in place and squeezes the soft bottom of the bucket inward a little. A gap appears, which I plan to fill with silicone. In general, my enthusiasm diminished a little, I decided to postpone this business until the weekend in order to do everything with feeling, with sense, with consistency. Forgive me dear sazalexter, I stuffed ordinary grease "lithol" into the bearing (for tractors and mechanisms, temperature up to 150 degrees). I just want to conduct an experiment in the spirit of Crazy Handles, and high-temperature grease, coupled with a silicone mat, is rapidly bringing the cost of such repairs to the price of a new bucket.
PySy, an idea arose: maybe there was no need to grind anything, but just remove the top layer of rubber of the new oil seal to the metal. This will hardly affect his work, but he will lose weight on mm. I leave this option for those who dare to repeat this venture, in the absence of a familiar turner.
PySy-2. This begs the question: how should the bucket be used to make it last longer? Apparently, it is better to pour flour first, and then water (although the manufacturer suggests the opposite) and not soak it after baking at all ...

[Sazalexter, Jefry]

Sazalexter, JefryThank you very much for responding so quickly!

PySy-2. This begs the question: how should the bucket be used to make it last longer? Apparently, it is better to pour flour first, and then water (although the manufacturer suggests the opposite) and not soak it after baking at all ...

Yes. I have a problem with a creak now - I have not baked bread for more than a month, but I stand the dough, and then I bake the loaves in a mini-oven. Here thoughts are spinning - and if you still warm up - bake bread in a bucket ?! Because when I take out the dough, I will definitely wash my bucket, then wipe it dry and go into the oven to the next. times I send. Maybe it's damp ?!

I still have a guarantee until 20.12 ...

All in my thoughts, my hair on end!

[Nataliya]

Nataliya, if I were you, I would not even think about it - a bullet to the service! This is a completely guaranteed case! It will not "dissolve" by itself. By the way, I talked to those whom I had advocated to buy HP two years ago (one batch from mine), everyone's shafts are already noticeably shaking.

yes, judging by your ordeals, I think I did the right thing, I bought a new one from me, too, at first it was a long time, I could not understand where, then I noticed that the shaft was moving and I realized that it was therefore piercing then when it completely fell out of my bucket and this foot fell off, I went in the workshop I thought they would change there was still a guarantee, but they said that the guarantee is only for electricity and electronics, but there is no need to buy for mechanics, well, I bought it, but it turned out that my model was not ordered now, I should receive

I thought to write, not to write about my actions ... but maybe someone will come in handy.
I phoned the local service center yesterday, if it is prepaid, then a bucket will be delivered from Kiev in a week. As a guarantee case - it doesn't work, why they don't explain. I will torture you on the spot on Tuesday.
And without a dough, nothing! Therefore, I took a pimp with butter for an imported sewing machine and dripped, without removing the butterfly, a small bucket into the crack at the bottom, twisted the handle back and forth and ... poured the ingredients (flour first), set the "Dough" mode and stood waiting ... three minutes spinning slowly (as expected) - there is no grinding ... the main batch has started - there is no grinding. For how long, I don’t know, I didn’t put it on baked goods, then I baked the sausages in the dough, but so far it’s okay, and then I’ll watch ... But my family said to buy a new bucket so that it was calmer. And there you look in one bucket of dough for bread, and in another at the same time the dough for buns is being prepared! And that's more fun! Happy New Year!

Dachshund, let's continue until we forget how and what ... The bucket is functioning quite normally, the technology can be considered tested ...
The extra millimeters of the stuffing box, as it turned out, prevent it from entering the upper hole. With a sharp knife, carefully cut off the excess:

By the way, in the absence of a familiar turner, the same can be done with the lower edge of the oil seal. I think this option is even much preferable.
By analogy with the principle of installing sinks, I pasted the bucket underneath with masking tape. If there is no such thing - it's okay, then you just have to wipe off the silicone that has come out. Determine the exact relative position of the parts and put it at risk with a pencil. We generously spread it all with silicone:

The lower part is similar:

Now you need to wait 10-20 minutes. Then carefully connect the bucket to the base and tighten the bolts and nuts. First, not "all the way", but so that there is a gap of about a millimeter. Then you can remove the masking tape. Finally, we clamp the nuts after 5-6 hours. It is better to twist them half a turn in turn so that the clamp is even. All! Done! Can be checked for leaks! In theory, in order for the sealant to solidify completely, it would have to be left for five days at room temperature. But I couldn't wait that long and did the field tests right away. First, just a batch, then a control loaf, which obviously went into the trash can, since it could contain technological impurities in the form of silicone and machine oil.Since I did not allow the sealant to completely solidify, after the first baking, a small silicone "artifact" emerged from the seam, although this did not affect the tightness in any way ...

[Jefry,]

Jefry, and how does your HP work now? How new? Did you have any problems after repairing the bucket? I'm very interested, because now the problem of repairing the bucket has already risen upside down! Only I have a 450th model, but I think that the designs and components are similar. From the service center, I realized that I could not wait for a new bucket. I have been waiting since July last year! The husband decided to fix it himself, so your experience will be very useful to us !!!

There is another similar topic here, only it has been edited
https://Mcooker-enn.tomathouse.com/index.php@option=com_smf&topic=36855.0
and I didn’t save the most necessary things, I didn’t have time, I’ll try to dig in the Yandex or Google cache.

Oddly enough, everything works great ... "smile: knocking on wood" ...
If your husband has any questions - please, I will definitely answer. But the design of the buckets is probably somewhat different. I was going to buy another round bucket, so their numbers are different for 250 and 450.

Let's continue the topic of oil seals.
Any news and suggestions?

I recently took apart my modified bucket. The rubber of the oil seal from the washing machine is a little swollen, but the cuff is in excellent condition and performs its functions. I realized my mistake that I did not allow the silicone to solidify, but immediately put it into operation. It became hard and loose, the bucket did not leak only by a miracle. I lubricated the shaft again, filled it with sealant and stood it for two days before baking something ... No more artifacts came out ...

Jeffrey! You just have a sea of ​​"kulibinol" in your blood - respect !!!

Can you now summarize your experience and lay out a list of repair materials for modernizing a leaking bucket? And another question: I broke the retaining ring that secures the "butterfly", when I tried to put it back - what can I replace it with, if the market makes a helpless gesture - there is no such ring ?! And another "stupid question": did you put the bolts with the heads from which side?

Sorry, I missed a personal question ...

Can you now summarize your experience and lay out a list of repair materials for modernizing a leaking bucket?

1. Actually stuffing box 22x10x8
2.3 pcs. bolts "five" with countersunk head + 3 washers + 3 grovers + 3 nuts
3. Sealant or old silicone mold from which you can cut a circle
4. High temperature grease (or ordinary thick machine grease)

And another question: I broke the retaining ring that secures the "butterfly", when I tried to put it back - what can I replace it with, if the market makes a helpless gesture - there is no such ring ?!

The lowermost retaining ring does not carry a heavy load. There you can wind a piece of thin steel wire and that's it. If only the butterfly would hold on.

And another "stupid question": did you put the bolts with the heads from which side?

Heads inside the bucket.

Hello, where can you buy a standard container for Kenwood BM 450 in Ukraine?

[Jefry]

Jefry, do I understand correctly that in the end the block on the bucket is fastened with screws with caps inside? Can you see a photo of the inside of the bucket somehow? I have here a theoretical problem on the delivery of my bucket from delonga to restore the coating, for this you need to remove all unnecessary completely. I want to understand 1. is it possible to drill the whole block without disassembling it and 2. how reliable and hermetically sealed the self-made fastening with screws? Do the caps interfere with the movement of the scapula?

[Ernimel]

Ernimel Hats should be made of stainless steel, on a cone (ideally). That is, they will then be "flush"

[Jefry]

Jefry, do I understand correctly that in the end the block on the bucket is fastened with screws with caps inside? Do the caps interfere with the movement of the scapula?

They are really flush and do not interfere with the scapula ...

1.Is it possible to drill the whole block without disassembling

Of course! If the seal is normal, then nothing needs to be disassembled.

2.How secure and tight is the self-made screw mount?

Absolutely reliable and sealed.

A small continuation of the theme. It turns out that my mistake was the search for the oil seal in the market.Let me remind you that in HP it costs 20x10x7, but they sell only 22x10 and incomprehensible quality. Although the non-native oil seal still works without problems. But recently a bearing flew in my washing machine and I was going to the market again. Just in case, I asked the "head of the transport department" where he was stocked with bearings. He gave me the address of the Bearing store. Imagine my surprise when I saw the assortment - one bearing size from ten different manufacturers! Retaining rings are available in all sizes. The oil seals are available in all sizes with a step of half a millimeter. And dear, real, not requiring any alterations, too! So if someone needs it, I can help!

A small continuation of the theme. It turns out that my mistake was the search for the oil seal in the market. Let me remind you that in HP it costs 20x10x7, but they sell only 22x10 and incomprehensible quality. Although the non-native oil seal still works without problems. But recently a bearing flew in my washing machine and I was going to the market again. Just in case, I asked the "head of the transport department" where he was stocked with bearings. He gave me the address of the Bearing store. Imagine my surprise when I saw the assortment - one bearing size from ten different manufacturers! Retaining rings are available in all sizes. The oil seals are available in all sizes with a step of half a millimeter. And dear, real, not requiring any alterations, too! So if someone needs it, I can help!

Jefry YOU are just great! Faced the problem of leakage from the bucket (the leak is not strong yet, but the fluid flowing out is dark, as I understand it washes out the grease). Thank you for the tip about the Bearing Specialized Store, the market really shrugs its shoulders - "no". But the store is in mind today I will try my luck. Question: I understand that you drilled out the rivets and completely disassembled the assembly, due to the wedging of the shaft? is complete disassembly required to replace the salinika? Model kenwood bm-450.

[VOVAN6655]

VOVAN6655 Read everything in this thread, there are only 3 pages, you will find a lot of useful information, including a link to a similar thread.

[VOVAN6655]

VOVAN6655 Read everything in this thread, there are only 3 pages, you will find a lot of useful information, including a link to a similar thread. I read the entire thread, analysis is necessary, I understood it. BM-450 oil seal: 8-19-8. I go to the store, try is not torture. Thank you!

Question: I understand that you drilled out the rivets and completely disassembled the assembly, due to the wedging of the shaft? is complete disassembly required to replace the salinika? Model kenwood bm-450.

Judging by the photos of modern buckets, indeed, the oil seal is simply pressed from above. And in my bucket there is still a ring that does not allow replacing the oil seal without complete disassembly ...

I just walked around the third "Bearing" store, they have nothing even remote. In those. I tried to order the service (Penza), they demanded an advance payment of 50% (the issue price is 1500-1700 rubles), and the delivery time is from 2 months to receipt = infinity (maybe nothing at all will come). Dead end.

[Tronic]

This forum often disturbs people's usual notions of time and space ... I can try to buy such a gland if available. I will solemnly hand it over on Saturday Tronic or zvezde, and he will go with them to St. Petersburg. And from there already "Russian Post" or some other occasion ...
I called this store, there is 8x19x7 available, I think a millimeter in height will not play a role?

[Tronic]

This forum often disturbs people's usual notions of time and space ... I can try to buy such a gland if available. I will solemnly hand it over on Saturday Tronic or zvezde, and he will go with them to St. Petersburg. And from there already "Russian Post" or some other occasion ...
I called this store, there is 8x19x7 available, I think a millimeter in height will not play a role?

The millimeter most likely will not play a role, but where can I get it. Thanks for attention!

[Tronic]

The millimeter most likely will not play a role, but where can I get it. Thanks for attention!

I will explain on my fingers.I can buy this oil seal. The issue price is 1 euro. This Saturday in Odessa, a meeting of members of the forum is planned, at which Tronic and zvezda... With them, this oil seal will go to St. Petersburg. How to pick it up from there - it's up to you. You gotta Tronic Euro.

oh, can I also have such an oil seal? I would have forwarded to my sister, she has problems with some kind of oil seal ... I will call her back, clarify ...

Of course you can, what a problem! Just really clarify, otherwise it turns out that even the same HP models have different standard sizes of oil seals ...

ok, I'll clarify a little later and whistle! thank you so much!!!!

[Tronic]

I will explain on my fingers. I can buy this oil seal. The issue price is 1 euro. This Saturday in Odessa, a meeting of members of the forum is planned, at which Tronic and zvezda... With them, this oil seal will go to St. Petersburg. How to pick it up from there - it's up to you. You gotta Tronic Euro.

Now I got it. This is sooooo good !!! You need a cell phone number "Troniki" (MTS, Megafon, Beeline, SMART, NSS-those operators that we have in the region, and through Sberbank online I can replenish the account: TELE2, Skylink. I hope he has one of the listed operators), I I put denyuzhki on the balance sheet, and after that, if "Tronik" does not complicate it, "Russian Post" will send it.

You forgot to enter your credit card number and PIN
It is usually customary to send all your contact information in a personal message ...

You forgot to enter your credit card number and PIN
It is usually customary to send all your contact information in a personal message ...

There is nothing terrible, I am not wanted by Interpol, I am waiting for messages.

[Tronic]

I rewrote all the data for myself, so I recommend that you edit your message downward ...
Yes, Tronic, this is a very sympathetic girl

[Tronic]

I rewrote all the data for myself, so I recommend that you edit your message downward ...
Yes, Tronic, this is a very sympathetic girl

It is doubly pleasant.

[VOVAN6655]

, VOVAN6655 there was a very small discrepancy ... When I called this company, I talked with a girl who "punched" the required oil seal on the base, they say, it costs a lot. Today I come to the store - there are no such men-sellers and it does not appear in the database. The investigation showed (when I told them the announced price) that they needed 8x19, and she saw 8x16. Quite the same! But do not leave empty-handed. In general, I bought 8x18x7. I think that adding a mm of diameter is easier than subtracting it, don't you agree? Send one, or take it back?

[VOVAN6655]

, VOVAN6655 there was a very small discrepancy ... When I called this company, I talked with a girl who "punched" the required oil seal on the base, they say, it costs a lot. Today I come to the store - there are no such men-sellers and it does not appear in the database. The investigation showed (when I told them the announced price) that they needed 8x19, and she saw 8x16. Quite the same! But do not leave empty-handed. In general, I bought 8x18x7. I think adding a mm diameter is easier than subtracting it, don't you agree? Send one, or take it back?

Sent-unambiguously, especially in another thread, "Mikhailo" mentions 8x18x6 for the same model, and it seems to me that it does not rise flush. I would think this is some kind of option. With an attempt to get a new one (even a round one), nothing works yet. Jeffry, while twisting and twirling a bucket (we are using it, it’s not leaky yet), one interesting moment came to light: he removed the retaining ring, removed the "butterfly" and found the 2nd the washers, but not like steel in your photo, but made of yellow metal (more likely made of copper), then it's even more interesting: you can see that somehow I installed them wrongly after reassembly !!! the flow stopped, the stem moved: up and down, the flow resumed, then if the "butterfly" is pulled down before pouring the liquid, then there is no leak. Conclusion: the gland passes liquids from above, besides, the copper washers are worn out (which in this design serve as buffers for the coupling of passenger cars - they stretch the connection for rigidity, only passively here (and still do not allow contact during rotation - "butterfly "and the rod sleeve), while in passenger cars they are actively spring-loaded by friction devices).Today I will try (if they are not "pulled out" to work) to pick up washers or one washer + to those that are already installed, to increase the thickness, if the leak disappears or at least decreases, then I think we will reach your oil seal with our bread (how you don't want to go for "shop").
ZY: I painted it as best I could, maybe someone will be interested.

I changed the washer (left over from some kind of repair kit) -smooth (polished) steel, the thickness is slightly larger: old two = 1.35 / new = 1.5. There is practically no backlash up and down, there are no leaks, I greased it with a syringe (from above through the gland) with silicone grease ("vedeshkoy"), liquid, food grade not food grade was not driven, because I think that there is no food grade grease. There is no pressure from below, and the flowing liquid will not let the "vedeshka" seep into the bucket. But the liquid flowing into the bushing of the dough mixer drive rod is not good, it was not decided by changing the washer.

and no one tried to splash silicone grease on the oil seal, usually it gives elasticity to rubber parts

I got such advice on the Internet ...

By the way about the oil seals. I solved this problem like this. In a car shop I bought a set of oil caps for a VAZ-2108, in the old oil seal I carefully enlarged the hole to a metal clip (with a sharp thin scalpel). It remains to forcefully insert the autocap into the oil seal and that's it. The diameter of the hole of the cap corresponds to the diameter of the roller, the rubber is heat-resistant, has been working for 2 years without any remarks. (There are 7 more of the kit left in reserve)

from here 🔗
Can someone comment for me on this?

[*** yana ***]

*** yana *** The biggest bucket repair work is here on the forum.
Look, there is still a moulinex

[sazalexter]

sazalexter

The biggest bucket repair work is here on the forum.

Yes, I know, I’ve collected everything, I’m rereading it. about the valve stem seals was not there. can you remember who made the stirrer himself?

A small continuation of the theme. It turns out that my mistake was the search for the oil seal in the market. Let me remind you that in HP it costs 20x10x7, but they sell only 22x10 and incomprehensible quality. Although the non-native oil seal still works without problems. But recently a bearing flew in my washing machine and I was going to the market again. Just in case, I asked the "head of the transport department" where he was stocked with bearings. He gave me the address of the Bearing store. Imagine my surprise when I saw the assortment - one bearing size from ten different manufacturers! Retaining rings are available in all sizes. The oil seals are available in all sizes with a step of half a millimeter. And dear, real, not requiring any alterations, too! So if someone needs it, I can help!

Good afternoon, if you can discard the contact information of this store to me in the PM.

Good day. I was inspired by your article and decided to fix my bucket from vm366. Not on sale.
My shaft is jammed over time. I cut off the rivets with a grinder from below, but it was not possible to knock out, I had to carefully drill out.
But then another problem appeared, after removing the rivets, the mechanism for attaching the bucket in the stove did not want to remove it (it was well glued with a sealant on both sides of the silicone gasket) I suffered for a long time with a screwdriver, but nevertheless I removed it by crushing the bucket body. Then I had to straighten it.
The sealant was heat-resistant, macroflex, dark red. He holds up to 300g.
I thought for a long time how to lubricate the sleeve, they advised me to pour in a lead from a soft pencil, and so I did.
He liberally lubricated all surfaces with a sealant, and immediately gradually tightened all the nuts cross to cross. Removed excess sealant.
I think I'll let it stand for a couple of days, cut off the excess bolts and check.
And unsubscribe what happened. Hopefully successful.
PS: The shaft got jammed after, after cutting the bread, the bucket was immediately put into the bread maker without washing and stood there for a week. I hope my bitter experience will teach someone.
I wanted to post a photo, but I can't figure out how to do it ...

Girls and boys. Just before the new year, I ordered myself a bucket for Kenwood 450. I already received it.The cost of the bucket with delivery cost me 235 UAH.
🔗
Here I ordered. There were buckets for many bread makers! I recommend leaving an order and they will call you back. They called me back literally 30 minutes later. The girl asked everything and sent it to me the next day. For the new year I was already with a new bucket. Mine is still leaking, but I decided not to wait. Before that, I had already ordered a round round from another company, the current was waiting there for 1.5 months. And here everything is operational!