Dishwasher selection (1)

The price in Germany and the price in our country, let's say, in the CIS, are two big differences

Well, in relative terms, it is 2.5 times more expensive, if you take it as a percentage of the average salary in Germany and in the post-Soviet space, the difference will be much larger. But that's not even the point, everyone has different concepts of expensive and cheap, better or worse. (My friends living in Germany, despite the fact that their family's income is a hundred times higher than mine, they collect water in a thin stream, all day so that the meter does not spin). Someone does not like to bother with unnecessary questions "very dirty - not much", threw the pill and forgot. This is their own business and there is nothing reprehensible in it. Others are more concerned only with the fact that the tablets are designed only for the average water hardness, a certain average pollution and for the standard program. In all other cases, either the dishes are washed worse, or far from harmless chemicals will remain on the plates.
By the way, I figured that exactly a month had passed since I connected the dishwasher. It turns out that I spent less than 1 (ODIN) euro on detergents ...

What's the disadvantage of taking pills? In Germany, 50 tablets cost about 10 euros. The average family starts the car twice every three days. A month comes out 20 tablets per month 4 euros. It is expensive?

I bought a packet of pills, in my opinion 60 pieces ... for more than five hundred rubles. It is not expensive because now they are even more expensive.

It seems to me that it is more profitable with the powder. (y) At least the dosage can be changed depending on the degree of "fat content" of the dishes

It is a fact. One hundred poods is more profitable. And as for the dosage, IMHO cannot be compared, because whatever you say, the tablets are washed 100%, and with the powder rarely but there are slightly stained moments .. True, there were 2 times and with baking sheets, but the tablets are very convenient to use for general cleaning and for the arrival guests - when you know that you are getting an excellent result for sure.

Do you want it or not, but there were no "punctures" with the powder, except for the pot-tank (7 liter it seems) which is not washed with tablets

I use Sun powder, and there were no punctures either. Everything is washed perfectly.

Well, in relative terms, it is 2.5 times more expensive, if you take it as a percentage of the average salary in Germany and in the post-Soviet space, the difference will be much larger. But that's not even the point, everyone has different concepts of expensive and cheap, better or worse. (My friends who live in Germany, despite the fact that their family's income is a hundred times higher than mine, they collect water in a thin stream, all day so that the meter does not spin).

This is true and I agree, only the meter in Germany is spinning anyway, thin or not thin trickle.

Someone does not like to bother with unnecessary questions "very dirty - not much", threw the pill and forgot. This is their own business and there is nothing reprehensible in it. Others are more concerned only with the fact that the tablets are designed only for the average water hardness, a certain average pollution and for the standard program. In all other cases, either the dishes are washed worse, or far from harmless chemicals will remain on the plates.

Just like with powder. The water hardness is adjusted in the machine using salt. Unless, of course, I'm lying.

By the way, I figured that exactly a month had passed since I connected the dishwasher. It turns out that I spent less than 1 (ODIN) euro on detergents ...

I spend 4 (four) euros per month. At the same time, I do not buy rinse aids and I change the salt every hundred years. I used to use a powder machine. The costs were comparable, because either the rinse aid, or stand still, wipe the glasses.Plus, salt poured in immeasurably, although it is cheap ...

Uh, this argument is pointless. It's like we were arguing which is tastier - granulated sugar or refined sugar! The composition of the powder and tablets is, in principle, absolutely identical. And in a screwed-up Boshik or Aega on the auto program, there can be no difference at all (except for the price). And it has already been written here many times: the tablets are designed for the standard duration of the washing cycle, since its components dissolve gradually. Therefore, with a tablet on the fast program, instead of rinsing, we will get one more wash. Peace be with you, bakers and dishwasher owners!

Has anyone used eco-friendly pills that are harmless to the environment?
I decided to take care of Mother Nature and bought them. After the very first wash, the dishes were covered with a terrible bloom, which had to be washed off with ordinary tablets. And then the castrbles were not completely washed off.

tablets are designed for a standard wash cycle, as its components dissolve gradually. Therefore, with a tablet on the fast program, instead of rinsing, we will get one more wash.

I didn't think so. In my Bosh, on a fast program (23 min), Finish (Calgonit) tablets dissolve quite normally.

I am wondering if anyone has used the PMM Cilit cleaner? Well, there is a bottle of liquid at the top of the blue, at the bottom is transparent, peel off the sticker and insert it into the basket (use once a month). A month has passed for me, but so far there are no signs of extraneous odors, etc., it shines like new. Maybe because I still can't breathe on it, I wipe it every time and clean the filter after a maximum of one or two. And I think, do you need it at all?

For four years of using dishwashers (recently the desktop was changed to a full-size one), I used this thing already once, and even then only because it was stuck to the powder for the action. I didn't feel any difference after such cleaning .... The main thing is to wash the filters in time, and everything will be OK. And if suddenly the smell appears, there are special reusable deodorants. For one wash, it refreshes, you do not need to keep it in the machine all the time.

Has anyone used eco-friendly tablets that are harmless to the environment?
I decided to take care of Mother Nature and bought them. After the very first wash, the dishes were covered with a terrible bloom, which had to be washed off with ordinary tablets. And then the castrbles were not completely washed off.

What are they called? We don't seem to sell such people yet ...
In general, anyone has wondered how safe standard detergents, eg. Calgonit? For example, I am very much embarrassed by the fact that the rinse aid remains on the dishes after drying.

What's the disadvantage of taking pills? In Germany, 50 tablets cost about 10 euros. The average family starts the car twice every three days. A month comes out 20 tablets per month 4 euros. It is expensive?

we have 14 tablets cost 8 euros

What are they called? We don't seem to sell such people yet ...
In general, anyone has wondered how safe standard detergents, eg. Calgonit? For example, I am very much embarrassed by the fact that the rinse aid remains on the dishes after drying.

if there are traces of chemistry on the dishes, something is wrong, the first sign of the correct dosage is clean, without stains and smudges, the dishes are exactly like this, I use Calgonite (salt, powder, rinse aid), or maybe there is a lot of salt?

I didn't think so. In my Bosh, on a fast program (23 min), Finish (Calgonit) tablets dissolve quite normally.

According to the principle of the tablet, the rinse aid is in a shell, which should dissolve by the time of the last rinse in the standard program. And this, at least, two hours later. In my PMM, the 3in1 function on fast programs is blocked and this is written in the instructions in big letters in bold and in a frame circled with an exclamation mark (such as pets in this microwave do not dry!).After all, what prevents you from putting the pill not in a container but just like that. Well, you can still agree with the average dosage of detergent and rinse aid (you can do without them), but salt is also needed to regenerate the ion exchanger. And the salt from the tablet does not get to him in any way. If you use only tablets with a lit indicator of no salt for six months, the machine will have a kirdyk (replacing the ion exchanger costs 200 euros).
This is taken from the office. Bosch site:

If you use only tablets with a lit indicator of no salt for six months, the machine will have a kirdyk (replacing the ion exchanger costs 200 euros).

I do not agree with this. I used some pills for a very long time and nothing happened.

I do not agree with this. I used some pills for a very long time and nothing happened.

Oh, sorry, I forgot to add, this is all with water hardness above average, and in the complete absence of salt in the ion exchanger. To read technical documentation about him is like sourdough - tamagotchi. Even though the water is soft-soft and the flow regulator is at zero, the salt MUST BE there! The resin feels comfortable only in a saturated salt solution. And if you keep it on a starvation ration and with hard water, it dies, withers, the pores become clogged and the water stupidly stops flowing into the machine. You can, of course, drill holes in it as unnecessary, but you need a complete disassembly of the machine. Among the servicemen there were suggestions that in very expensive cars (more than 1,500 euros), there is an additional valve that lets water bypassing the ion exchanger when the 3in1 mode is turned on. But no one has seen such a thing in life.

In general, anyone has wondered how safe standard detergents, eg. Calgonit? For example, I am very much embarrassed by the fact that the rinse aid remains on the dishes after drying.

The packaging says: how dangerous it is! But this is the whole point of using a dishwasher, because there is no need to look for a compromise between the quality of washing and harm to the skin of the hands. During the washing process, the strong alkali of the detergent reacts with the fats on the dishes and turns them from insoluble to soluble. What has not reacted does it already in the sewer with the fats of a neighbor. Rinse aid is a weak solution of acid, let's say citric acid, reacts with detergent residues to form completely neutral things. That is why you cannot use half a tablet, they will react immediately when they get into the water.

In November, in this thread, I gave an approximate calculation of the cost of washing dishes. At that time, at those prices I got 6p 70kop. in a day. This is taking into account 1, rarely 2 washes per day, along with electricity. It turned out about 200 rubles a month. This is 4.5 euros ... Now it is a little more expensive. Well 300. The cost of a good hand wash is 80 rubles. for a bottle, these bubbles took me about 4 ... The same money. What about convenience? What about hands that don't need to be healed? My car is a year old. I really noticed the difference on my hands. This year I had to deal with hand skin much less. And all the care is night cream. That's it, no additional Radevites, Dermoveits and other things

What are we arguing about salt, which is worth three kopecks a kilometer. It is clear that she is needed. Who gets adrenaline without it is a private matter for everyone. Jefry is right in my opinion.

In November, in this thread, I gave an approximate calculation of the cost of washing dishes. At that time, at those prices I got 6p 70kop. in a day. This is taking into account 1, rarely 2 washes per day, along with electricity. It turned out about 200 rubles a month. This is 4.5 euros ... Now it is a little more expensive. Well 300. The cost of a good hand wash is 80 rubles. for a bottle, these bubbles took me about 4x ... The same money. What about convenience? What about hands that don't need to be healed? My car is a year old. I really noticed the difference on my hands. This year I had to deal with hand skin much less. And all the care is night cream. That's it, no additional Radevites, Dermoveits and other things

And that's not counting the fact that every evening appears with half an hour of free time.And the guests do not terrify, because after them you need to wash a ton of dishes. And you don't have to think about the towels with which the dishes are wiped. All business - loaded, refueled, pressed the button, two hours later put them in their places.

The foreman from the service measured the hardness of our water and said that the water is very soft and there is no need to put salt.

The foreman from the service measured the hardness of our water and said that the water is very soft and there is no need to put salt.

For most drum masters, the more repairs, the better at least under warranty even for tugriks
And what did he measure? Interestingly, only the laboratory of FGUz gives the data!
Or the water utility and even then can lie

aha, he would have issued a document that he said so - in general it would be good, and then later in the afternoon with fire him with his phrase ... if there is a breakdown, then everyone will turn out to be switchmen ..

According to the principle of the tablet, the rinse aid is in a shell, which should dissolve by the time of the last rinse in the standard program. And this, at least, two hours later.

It is your pills that are incorrect, or expired. Normal tablets dissolve well even with a short program. I tried Finish (Calgonit) classic, and 3x1 and 5x1, and everything melted perfectly. Honestly, what is 5x1 and why is it needed, I did not quite understand, but honestly I experienced it.

[Caprice]

Caprice, after all, the tablets are invented for use on a regular, medium cycle. That is about 2 hours. There, all three components dissolve in due course. I don’t know how this is implemented from the point of view of chemistry, but with a short program, there is clearly not enough time. I read on the iXbt forum - there are many times the same problem - the tablet does not dissolve on a short wash, which means it does not work as it should. Local gurus advise against using pills on short programs

[Sazalexter]

Sazalexter, he measured with a paper indicator strip. I don't know how accurate it is, but the water in our house is really very soft - there is a cleaning machine in the basement, to which salt is added, and then the water passes through a filter and only after that it enters the apartments. And we do not have FGUZ in Turkey
Yes, my typewriter is exactly 11 years old, during this time the service was called only 1 time, I wash the dishes every day.

For the sake of experiment, yesterday I bought 6-in-1 tablets, I don't remember the production of Denmark, and due to the fact that I only put the pill on a short program and waited for what would come of it, everything turned out well the dishes glittered the tablet evaporated.

I have carefully read the instructions and description of the Bosh SGS-46M22 dishwasher, there is a chip "regeneration electronics" and "Automation 3in1". Indeed, the instructions say that when the flow regulator is set to 0, you can initially not sprinkle salt at all. This means that the ion exchanger is organized somehow differently as usual and can live without salt.
On ixbt, someone was interested in specialists about 3in1 cars. According to the description, the machine should itself determine that a tablet has been put into it and shut off the supply of salt and rinse aid. And in appearance it is impossible to understand whether she has identified something or not, and the characteristic streaks from the rinse aid remain on the door.
On a page similar to the one above, the right column is missing. There is this:

In general, the owners of dishwashers, "sharpened" for tablets, can sleep peacefully.
And in the "Quick Start Guide" you can see this:

So no one in court will prove that he was not warned

So I wanted to write about the same thing: everyone has different dishwashers
Some have a short cycle of 1.5 hours, and some have 25 minutes.
Some have written that you cannot use all-in-one tablets in fast cycles, and some have a special program for tablets.
...
In general, it's not for nothing that manufacturers write: READ INSTRUCTIONS

For the sake of experiment, yesterday I bought 6-in-1 tablets, I don't remember the production of Denmark, and due to the fact that I only put a pill on a short program and waited for what would come of it, everything turned out well the dishes glittered the tablet evaporated.

The point is not that it does not dissolve, but that, let's say, it does not work correctly.

[Question]

From the site

Question: I always use tablets as dishwasher detergents and they usually dissolve well, but sometimes the tablet remains in the machine.
Answer: This can be due to various reasons: the tablets are not placed correctly; the selected program is not suitable, as a result of which the water temperature is too low; and also the rules for washing dishes in the dishwasher are violated, for example, very often the dishes cover the holes from which water comes.

[are obliged]

And I did not notice much difference in the quality of washing between Finish Classic, Finish 3in1 and Finish all in1 tablets. My PMM is not designed to shut off the salt and rinse aid supply for 3-in-1 or all-in 1 tablets. Anyway, pills are obliged dissolve in any washing mode. Otherwise, they are simply worthless.

If you did not pay attention, I have quoted the instructions for your model.
Okay, I agree, the salt and detergent from the tablet dissolves instantly. But the rinse aid is in a slowly dissolving shell. And it begins to work for you an hour and a half after you took the dishes out of the car. And it drains into the sewer the next time you turn it on. Since it is a short program without drying, you cannot see whether there was rinse aid or not. So it turns out "no difference"

If you dig into the technical jungle and figure out how the dishwasher works, then the tablets generally contradict its principle of action. And experts generally recommend using them only from time to time. If you suddenly run out of any of the funds, but still urgently need to wash the dishes. Kind of fast food vs mom's pancakes.
In terms of the device, the dishwasher does not differ much from the washing machine: a control unit, water supply valves, heating elements, a drain pump, only instead of a drum drive, the main circulation pump. But it turned out that the quality of dishwashing is greatly influenced by the hardness of tap water. So manufacturers have to install an expensive ion exchanger. Its main element is a kind of resin. The water entering the machine first passes through this ion exchanger in which the resin miraculously replaces some ions with others. And the hardness of the water tends to zero. In this case, the resin works as a catalyst and is not consumed, but only salt is consumed. This resin behaves like a very gentle living creature. And it easily loses its properties. First, she is afraid of drying out (after all, everyone had a new, out of the box, was the machine wet inside?). The second is hunger. If there is no salt, or its supply is less than needed and the water rushes, it feels bad, sooner or later it will stop working. The third is various kinds of chemistry. If something unusual got into the water supply system and it was not noticed in time, it bends immediately. A more common situation - they poured salt, forgot to tighten the lid and turned it on. The detergent kills her in one go. 200 euros is the cost of only the ion exchanger itself. Taking into account the fact that it is located in the very wilderness of the machine, the replacement will pull in an amount comparable to the new one.
And now the most important thing is that the salt from the tablet does not get into the ion exchanger in any way and does not change the water hardness. This fact is carefully hidden by the tablet manufacturers. A resident of St. Petersburg will never feel the difference, and a resident of Baku will start to cover dishes with an indelible coating in a month.
I will not give links, this is all my IMHO. I saw an official letter to the service center from AEG, in which, reluctantly, strongly veiled, the fact of the machine's fatal breakdown as a result of using only tablets was admitted. Unfortunately, I could not find that link. But for myself, I decided that I would NEVER use them.
Maybe I am greatly mistaken, and that letter was ordered, and so on. Then explain to me what is the lack of separate funds? In the need to determine how much to pour or a little? Is it that difficult? One brow in the store, together with PMM Mila, was given Mila pills, at a price three times more expensive than usual, explaining that "the manufacturer knows better what pills are needed for his typewriter."What does the machine have to do with it? How does the manufacturer know how dirty my dishes are? It's like 3in1 instant coffee stickers "the perfect combination of coffee, cream and sugar!" For whom is it matched? Under the average inhabitant of the Earth? Those Mille pills did not wash the dishes at all. A modern sophisticated machine, hung with a bunch of sensors, constantly monitoring everything, itself can determine how much of what it needs to add for the best result. And she is fed with average pills. She helplessly spreads the rocker arms, cuts out all the automatics, and washes as it goes. Let's say she can add, if there is anything, and subtract - nope ...
Sorry for the large number of beeches, who will not master - do not read ...
Sincerely.

2 Jefry
+ 1000,
I do not use pills, but I also cannot understand washing "glass" lasts 30 minutes, "pan" - more than 2 hours, how can one and the same drug be used with a successful result?

Who wants a specialist's answer, they are here 🔗
it has already been said a million times salt in the car is needed, from pills only harm is like fast food, slowly but surely and why argue here is not clear

And now the most important thing is that the salt from the tablet does not get into the ion exchanger in any way and does not change the water hardness.

And the instructions for my Ariston typewriter (one of the last models) directly say: when using 3 in 1 tablets, salt must still be loaded (!).

Mary_ufa, please shorten the quoted text! Over-citations overload the forum!

Good afternoon, dear! I became interested in your controversy and became interesting myself! In theory, the work of the PMM should be similar to the work of an automatic washing machine (excuse me, maybe the terms are not professional !!!). The bottom line is that there is a dishwashing cycle, a rinsing cycle thereof, and then, depending on the selected mode, drying or its absence. And regardless of the time of the selected cycle (standard, short, etc.), the principle of "washing" and then "rinsing" is always performed. So if a tablet is placed, then during washing, part of the detergent should dissolve, after the end of washing in the next step, the rinse agent should dissolve when the next portion of water is supplied. If you poured powder and poured rinse aid, everything will be the same. But dividing the pill, apparently, is not necessary. Under different modes, of course, the duration of the wash and rinse cycles simply changes. Here I also found (for reference):

The dishwasher works as follows.

First, the machine draws the required amount of cold or hot water from the water supply. After that, it reduces its hardness to a predetermined level (we will dwell on this in more detail later), adds a detergent from a special container and heats the resulting solution to the required temperature.

Further, the washing solution is fed under pressure into a small shower head located above the upper basket, and at the same time into hollow rocker arms with holes. The number, shape and location of these holes are designed so that the directed jets rotate the sprinklers.

As a result, a circulation of foamy liquid is formed in the washing chamber, from which even the smallest glass cannot hide. As you can see, elastic jets of cleaning solution are working in the machine. He moistens the dishes, with his pressure cleans them of food debris and carries them to the bottom of the chamber.

There the solution passes through the filter and is fed back to the sprinklers. This closed loop circulation continues until the command to stop washing is given. Then the spent solution is discharged into the sewer.

Using the same sprinklers, the machine sprinkles the washed items with cold water or warm rinse solution, which gives the dishes a shine and pleasant aroma.

[Eretik]

Eretik, I completely agree with you!
Comrades, do not quarrel and do not get confused.
1. The water contains Ca (calcium) salts and
Mg (magnesium) (the so-called hardness salts), which, when heated, settle on the surface (pipes, heating elements) and form soluble compounds - scale. Everyone knows what scale is and what it leads to. To prevent limescale from forming when the water is heated, water needs to be softened... To do this, water must be passed through an ion exchanger, where calcium and magnesium cations combine with salt ions and form salts CaCl and MgCl readily soluble in water. To ensure the ion-exchange ability of the ion exchanger resin (sorry for the tafthology), it is necessary to regenerate the resin with NaCl salt (not to be confused with table salt, it comes with impurities). Salt is required primarily for the normal operation of the ion exchanger, and not to increase the efficiency of the detergent (if the ion exchanger becomes clogged, water stops flowing into the PMM).
2. Water in different places of our planet has different hardness. The same pill can completely dissolve in one city and dissolve poorly in another.

About the PM automation quote: Auto wash program
This washing mode automatically adjusts according to the type, quantity and soiling of the dishes you load. During the Auto Program, the dishwasher carefully monitors the washing parameters, starting from determining the amount and soiling of the loaded dishes and then choosing the appropriate temperature between 50 and 65 ° C and the washing intensity for the best result. Thus, the automatic washing program optimizes water and energy consumption by automatically adjusting the cycle. During the Auto Program, the water purity sensor is used.
🔗

If you dig into the technical jungle and figure out how the dishwasher works, then the tablets generally contradict its principle of action. And experts generally recommend using them only from time to time. If you suddenly run out of any of the funds, but still urgently need to wash the dishes. Kind of fast food vs mom's pancakes.

You are wrong. The tablets do not contradict at all the principle of operation of the machine. Specialists do not recommend anything like that.

The water entering the machine first passes through this ion exchanger in which the resin miraculously replaces some ions with others. And the hardness of the water tends to zero. In this case, the resin works as a catalyst and is not consumed, but only salt is consumed.

This is not true. That is, it is not at all true.
Actually, you don't have to read further.

1. Tablets can be used not only, but also necessary. If, of course, finances are good.
2. Salt should ALWAYS be in the exchanger.
3. If the ion exchanger works without salt for some time, even a month, then the devil will not take it, but it is better not to allow this.
4. Tablets are used only and exclusively in 3in1 mode.
5. The powder does not wash the coagulated protein at any temperature. From my experience, coagulated protein tablets are washed off, but very badly.
6. Tablets do not contain salt. They contain phosphates that prevent limescale build-up.
7. Read the instructions. And follow the instructions strictly.

About the PM automation quote: Auto wash program
........................ ........................ ........................ ..............
During the Auto Program, the water purity sensor is used.
🔗

I also have this in my Boshik, honestly, I admit that on the automation I washes best of all, I only use tablets, because pouring in the powder .. it pisses me off that he wakes up by and I can never guess how much to pour well, it's inconvenient for me to throw the pill out of the package into a container and

[Chantal]

Chantal, but to me, on the contrary, pills broke ... I have a plastic container with powder. When I buy a new one, I pour it there. This container contains a regular old tablespoon. I pour it on it. Always 1 tablespoon of powder. Sufficient for almost any degree of pollution. I tried the pills, I have a box. But I didn't notice the difference.
Protein plaque - I don't have this problem. I cook broths and soups in a slow cooker - everything can be washed off easily from Teflon

Someone on the forum has already advised pouring the powder into plastic bottles. I don’t remember who, but all the same, thanks. It is very convenient and always poured neatly. A 0.33 bottle of mineral water is enough for me for several months. And it's convenient to store.

And I ordered myself a magnetic ball from the scale in the neckermann, for 5 days I have already been washing the dishes and no scale, even with salt I still have stains on the glasses, and with this ball everything shines. I am very pleased with him.

I want a new PPM kitchen, but it fits only at an angle (adjoining) to the sink. How NOT convenient is this location?

[aynat]

aynat If you collect the dishes in the sink, then how can you put them in the machine? If you open the door, you will block your approach to the sink. There is a bucket under the sink, if you don't even throw the dishes into the sink, then throw the leftover food into the bucket, and then the dishes into the machine. Yet again. Both doors cannot be opened at the same time. I think it will be inconvenient ... Either side by side in one row, or at a corner, but then there is a cabinet between the sink and the PMM.

Thanks to Mams, that's what I was afraid of. Nothing but a 15cm cabinet will fit in there ... Neither from one side, nor from the other side - the kitchen is square, on one side there is a door and a refrigerator, on the other - a sink and a stove ... Then I will probably take a tabletop one, since the dishwasher is not spoiled, maybe enough ...

I want a new PPM kitchen, but it fits only at an angle (adjoining) to the sink. How NOT convenient is this location?

My kitchen is also square and the pmm is on the aisle by the door, and it opens only when the kitchen door is completely closed or open, it's not very convenient, but it's better than a desktop one, because it won't fit into a desktop one, if even in a narrow (45 cm) little space, you have to wash the large one