Sourdough bread in the oven

Zest! Do not think what is bad, but where does such specific information about 10 * come from? What are you referring to?

By the way, I also can't understand it. At the last stage of cultivation, the French sourdough is aged at temperatures up to 6 degrees for 24 hours. Why is that? It turns out that bacteria are destroyed in it?

[Misha]

Zest! Do not think what is bad, but where does such specific information about 10 * come from? What are you referring to?

By the way, I can't understand it either. At the last stage of cultivation, the French sourdough is aged at temperatures up to 6 degrees for 24 hours. Why is that? It turns out that bacteria are destroyed in it?

girls, dear, I'm not going to think anything bad, but I will not enter into long debates on the biochemistry of starter cultures either.

A similar question has already been answered here, post 309: https://Mcooker-enn.tomathouse.com/index.php@option=com_smf&topic=9229.300, I'm sorry, but I won't repeat myself, because I can only say the same thing. What I really regret is that I did not save the photos at one time, which clearly showed the differences between bread baked with chilled sourdough, and bread baked with sourdough, which was stored at a temperature of + 10 *.

For me, the personal experience of people who are seriously engaged in baking sourdough bread is a sufficient reason not to store sourdough at temperatures below + 10 *.

I still have a dialogue between Lyudmila (mariana-aga) and Misha (cruicide) about changing the composition of the starter culture when it is cooled. I can cite it here, I think it will not be a violation of anyone's rights, since this dialogue was put on public display.

"Misha:

Can I make a few comments?
1. The problem is not even that they die, but that they die selectively. For example, I read that according to some estimates, L. plantarum has a survival rate at low temperatures 25 times higher than that of L. sanfranciscensis, which, as the name suggests, prevails in San Francisco and gives the "that same taste" of San Francisco sour of bread. That is, even if you refresh the culture several times after cooling, the composition will still be different. It will not always be noticeable and not important for everyone, but nevertheless ...
2. Many people say: "But it rises." Raise yeast, lactic acid bacteria, on the contrary, inhibit them. The lifting power of the starter culture is not directly related to the taste of the final product.

Ludmila
Yes, I was convinced by experience that "no matter how you sit down, you are not a musician." No matter how much you refresh the refrigerator leaven, it will no longer acquire a rich bouquet. I really did not knead it with my hands, but with a spoon, for the purity of the experiment, so that bacteria would not get into the leaven from my hands.

Lyudmila:

I 100% agree about the selective extinction of different types of ICD.

And I read about the lifting force, it seems in Bread Builders that yeast and MKB saturate the dough with gas to the same extent, that is, 50% of the gas volume in the dough from both. Acid from the vital activity of the MCB inhibits the activity of yeast, including the production of gas by them, and the MCB themselves. Yes, and yeast can also be blamed for alcoholic emissions. Also not sugar, live with them in the same test

Misha:
You know, it's better not to get involved in discussions (even friendly ones) on the biochemistry of ferments - there is too much mixed in there. You can take out your books and start sorting out, but there will be no time left to bake bread. All I wanted to say is that the lifting power of a leaven is not necessarily a measure of its health. "
I personally made my choice in favor of storing the starter culture at least
+ 10 *.But I also met the opinion that it is better to bake on a cooled sourdough, than to abandon it altogether.

so your choice is in your hands.

Zest!
I saw a photo of Lyudmila Batonov on a normal and cooled sourdough. All this is understandable. It's just that my leaven is acidified without a refrigerator, and in it the leaven is cooled down. I've been baking bread for the third month. All is well, but I want it to be more aromatic. I'm thinking about a Frenchwoman, but it is the last stage of her preparation that confuses her, he will not chill her?

[suslja5004]

suslja5004

from what I read about the leaven, I have the impression that if it does not cool down constantly, but will stay at the pace. below + 10 * no longer than 3 days, then nothing terrible should happen. Most likely, the taste of 2nd grade flour, plus bran, seemed unusual.

Somewhere I had a ratio of how much and what to add to replace whole grain flour, I can't find it yet. I will let you know how I find it. But if we proceed from the fact that whole grain flour is obtained by grinding the entire grain of wheat, including the bran, and the germ, and all layers of endosperm, then the wheat germ also had to be added.

[bagirra225]

bagirra225

Zest! Do not think what is bad, but where does such specific information about 10 * come from? What are you referring to?

I really am not a Zest, but I will answer, because I remember well where I got this information from. I read from Lyudmila (mariana-aga), who also did not come up with it herself, but refers to Professor Calvel:

"I also tried Calvel's Method of Need, because Calvel says in his book that the microbiota in starter cultures changes if we store them in the refrigerator at temperatures below 10-12C. IBCs do not survive at these temperatures. Oh! All my starters went to the trash! Every single one. I was terribly angry then (so much work was put into those leavens!) And at the same time I felt relief - it's better to know the truth than to live in dark ignorance. I'm happy today. My fermented milk cultures are excellent. The best".

And from her the same quote about who Calvel is:

" Professor Raymond Calvel was a French baker (he had a university degree in chemistry). He baked bread and taught others how to bake bread for seventy years. Even in captivity during the Second World War, he was assigned to bake bread in a small village for the German troops. The great and wonderful Julia Child learned to bake bread with Calvel."

It is the Kalvelevskaya sourdough that lives with me, so I remember this moment well.

I'm thinking about a Frenchwoman, but it is the last stage of her preparation that confuses her, will he chill her?

As far as I've read, French bakers never store finished sourdough at temp. below + 10 *. And if at the last stage of preparation of this leaven such a stage is provided, it means that it is somehow technologically justified and in no case should affect the qualitative composition of the leaven.
feel free to try to grow, personally I am sooo happy with this leaven.

[suslja5004]

suslja5004

I dug in my bins for whole grain flour.

It is possible to make a rough substitute for whole grain flour, but it will not be the equivalent. Whole wheat flour contains approximately 5% wheat germ and approximately 10% bran.
White flour is ground from the central starchy part of the grain, and its outer protein parts are used for second grade flour.

In my opinion, it turns out that the most approximate option will come out if you take a mixture of baking flour with 2nd grade flour and add wheat germ and bran to it (85% + 5% + 10%).

By the way, I can't understand it either. At the last stage of cultivation, the French sourdough is aged at temperatures up to 6 degrees for 24 hours. Why is that? It turns out that bacteria are destroyed in it?

The traditional (thick) French sourdough technology spends 24 hours in the refrigerator. I solved this issue for myself as follows: I grow a liquid one, which is much easier (and it doesn't need to be put in the refrigerator!), Then I transfer it to a thick state (if necessary).
I grew the thick one at the same time as the liquid one and baked bread on both with recalculating the sourdough, but did not find a difference in taste.

[NOT UP TO 6 * C, A FROM 6 TO 8 * C]

and one more amendment. I just looked through my notes, the traditional thick sourdough at the last stage of cultivation must be kept at a temperature NOT UP TO 6 * C, A FROM 6 TO 8 * C.

From myself, I can explain it this way:

In the cold, the sourdough falls asleep, the fermentation processes are suspended.
But when they take it out of the cold, they warm it up and give it to eat, i.e. They don't put a dough on it for baking - all the vital forces of the leaven wake up and it starts growing even more and thereby increases the activity.

[NOT UP TO 6 * C, A FROM 6 TO 8 * C]

The traditional (thick) French sourdough technology spends 24 hours in the refrigerator. I solved this issue for myself as follows: I grow a liquid one, which is much easier (and it doesn't need to be put in the refrigerator!), Then I transfer it to a thick state (if necessary).
I grew the thick one at the same time as the liquid one and baked bread on both with recalculating the sourdough, but did not find a difference in taste.

I will definitely use your advice, although it is now cool in the apartment about 21 degrees, and for liquid sourdough a higher temperature is needed, so it's easier for me to make a traditional thick Frenchwoman.

and one more amendment. I just looked through my notes, the traditional thick sourdough at the last stage of cultivation must be kept at a temperature NOT UP TO 6 * C, A FROM 6 TO 8 * C.

Exactly, but still less than 10 degrees.
Zest, you wrote that up to 3 days you can withstand it at tempera. less than 10 degrees, so I will dare.

I also wanted to know if the taste of the eternal and French sourdough is very different in bread?

[suslja5004]

Zest, you wrote that up to 3 days you can withstand it at tempera. less than 10 degrees, so I will dare.

Oh-oh-oh, from now on I will be more careful in expressions, but now I have to explain myself.
The most important thing is that in no case should I take my words as a "green light" for storing leaven in the refrigerator at T below + 10 * for up to 3 days. My post was addressed suslja5004, in which an extraordinary situation occurred - short-term hypothermia of the leaven.
It was to this situation that my words that "I have the opinion that if it does not cool down constantly, but will stay at the pace. below + 10 * no longer than 3 days, then nothing terrible should happen"This opinion is based on frequent recommendations to store surplus starter culture up to 3 days in the refrigerator and use it as needed.
It is not known how this will actually affect the mother's starter culture, so it is still not worth risking a 3-day stay of the starter culture at T below + 10 *. This is in cases where there is an accidental hypothermia of the leaven, you should not immediately put a cross on it and send it to the trash can, it is quite possible that nothing terrible has happened yet, here

But you can really grow a Frenchwoman without any fears. Well, French bakers do not store sourdoughs at T below + 10 *, which means that this stage is quite technologically justified.

I didn't grow the "eternal" leaven, so I won't tell you about the difference in taste. Maybe girls who are familiar with the taste of one and the other will respond. Here Luke I started to raise a Frenchwoman, but before that she was "eternal" ... I'll have to ask her.

Oh, girls, we bake sourdough bread and we will bake
"Tom Leonard" collected from what it was, in the sense that instead of whole grain flour. But there were no 4 hours of proofing, on the strength of 2. How much it turned out!

I also want to show off a fresh long fermentation (in the refrigerator for 18 hours). I like it very much, now I will always do this!

Oh, girls, we bake sourdough bread and we will bake
"Tom Leonard" collected from what it was, in the sense that instead of whole grain flour. But there were no 4 hours of proofing, on the strength of 2. How much it turned out!

What a good one)) I baked it on my own flour I ground wheat on Kenwood.All fermentation-proofing also had to be mercilessly reduced. With a Frenchwoman, you need an eye and an eye, and strives to issue a five-year plan in three years

She baked wheat-potato bread on eternal leaven.
Couldn't even wait until it cools down completely

[Paillette]

Paillette

it often happens that your lukewarm bread is more eager than all the cakes-pastries combined))

I'm glad for your family that you spoil it with the aromas of homemade freshly baked bread))

Zest! You baked a Parisian whole grain, right? / In your performance, he is really brighter than mine. But I put whole wheat wheat instead of spelled. /. My dough rises amazingly. After 24 hours in the refrigerator, the dough fits perfectly, doubles in the final proofing. Everything is as if by notes, BUT it seems that it settles directly during baking, or something. Or at least it doesn't rise. Is that ok, considering that the flour is still heavy? With the crumb, everything is ok: not gagged, elastic, well-shaped, it restores its shape when pressed. That is, the bread is ready.

PS - I don’t put Panifarin.

[bagirra225]

bagirra225

yes, Parisian whole grain baked and more than once. Now I've got some spelled, I'll try it strictly according to the recipe.
If you take a look at the photo of my whole grain, you will see how much it opened along the cut, that is, increased when baking in the oven. But in that version, I replaced spelled with Macfoy.

The bread does not grow in the oven, or even settles, most often if it is overexposed in the proofer. Try to reduce the proving time slightly.

[bagirra225]

bagirra225


The bread does not grow in the oven, or even settles, most often if it is overexposed in the proofer. Try to reduce the proving time slightly.

Thanks, I'll try. For me, it resembles a round Moscow one in texture.
Share, where did you get the spelled? I read about her. Well, just a miracle, not flour! And what has been undeservedly forgotten about her?

dan_Ira
Thanks for the detailed explanation. And rye bread also rises so much on a Frenchwoman - 3-4 times?

dan_Ira
Thanks for the detailed explanation. And rye bread also rises so much on a Frenchwoman - 3-4 times?

I didn't bake pure rye, but wheat-rye, but my shas baked three times.

[dan_Ira]

dan_Ira

I ordered spelled right here 🔗.
I looked, but it is not already on sale, you need to follow the assortment.

and what to want in vain? Need to grow

I’m not in tune ...
Yesterday I baked rye on eternal leaven. Today wheat ....

]
Today I made a discovery for myself, if you include both the lower and upper shades in the electric oven, then the bread turns out to be more magnificent. I baked according to your advice in a cauldron for 15 minutes under a lid, baked without a lid. Everything is as usual, only the upper ten has been added.
Probably it has already been written, but I, as always, reinvent the wheel.

[NatalyMur]

NatalyMur

Although they do not look for good from good, and you already have wonderful bread, you can get such an excellent opportunity to compare both leavens in your personal experience, as no one else can convey in words

I always bake bread during operation of both the upper and lower heating elements (this is still under the lid), and as I remove the lid, I lower the temperature by 10-20 * and transfer it to convection. I like this combination the most so far.

Girls, can you help me with advice, when you bake in a bread maker, does the recipe change?
For example ... I bake traditional French bread:
500 gr. leaven
700 gr. flour
450 gr. water
salt...
Are we just putting on French bread?
It's just that I bake in a bread maker only in summer, when it's hot ... and so I like to bake in the oven, today I tried rye in KhP, and it was cooked

[dan_Ira]

dan_Ira

What kind of bread maker do you have? Mixing so many ingredients is unlikely to pull ...
If I have to bake in a bread maker, then I take a French recipe for cotton, converted for sourdough. I have tried it more than once, I even put it on a timer.Perhaps, when the wild heat sets in, the timer will have to be abandoned, but on the French program (in Panasonic it is 6 hours), it will still work out great.
Here I gave this recipe, answer 343 https://Mcooker-enn.tomathouse.com/index.php@option=com_smf&topic=9229.330

[dan_Ira]

dan_Ira

What kind of bread maker do you have? Mixing so many ingredients is unlikely to pull ...
If I have to bake in a bread maker, then I take a French recipe for cotton, converted for sourdough. I have tried it more than once, I even put it on a timer. Perhaps, when the wild heat sets in, the timer will have to be abandoned, but on the French program (in Panasonic it is 6 hours), it will still work out great.
Here I gave this recipe, answer 343 https://Mcooker-enn.tomathouse.com/index.php@option=com_smf&topic=9229.330

Thank you, the oven is just ready again. LG oven, French bakes for 4-4.5 hours.
And without yeast, how will it taste ?, I already forgot when I used it

[dan_Ira]

dan_Ira

It tastes great without yeast.
The only thing I would advise to follow the first time is the degree of rise of the bread before baking. I don't know the strength of your sourdough, and I would have to check if the sourdough-only bread "fits" into the standard program or if you have to turn off the oven before baking to give it extra time to rise.

[NatalyMur]

NatalyMur

Although they do not look for good from good, and you already have wonderful bread, but you can get such an excellent opportunity to compare both leavens in your personal experience, as no one else can convey in words

I already tuned in to the Frenchwoman. But I don't want to raise her in a hurry. Right now, how will I swing and ...

NatalyMur
I always bake bread during operation of both the upper and lower heating elements (this is still under the lid), and as I remove the lid, I lower the temperature by 10-20 * and transfer it to convection. I like this combination the most so far.

Is convection a fan? And for some reason I am afraid to turn it on when baking bread. Next time I'll try.

And for some reason I am afraid to turn it on when baking bread. Next time I'll try.

:) Good luck in growing a Frenchwoman.

Convection is the very wind blower and there is. I myself am afraid to turn it on from the very beginning of baking, I have read that girls sometimes have their hats on one side. rather, not for girls, but for yeast products from the oven with convection on.
Therefore, I turn it on when the dough is already seized by a semblance of a crust, and then gilded it on convection.
Try it, try is not torture)) Maybe you will like it too.

I once baked bread in the oven on convection, without a lid, without everything, just on a pan, since there are no adaptations. So he almost immediately swelled like a kolobok, and baked with a ball. The crust was crispy and even. The bread itself turned out to be very soft, they ate it instantly.

Yeah, the roof shouldn't be taken down. Boom to try. I really want a lush bread. Although it seems to me that further splendor depends more on the leaven.

I would like to report on the comparison made. I baked bread on MK sourdough from flour of the 1st grade with the addition of sprouted wheat. In one version, wheat was added to the dough, in the second - to the leaven. Further long-term proofing in

refrigerator, etc. As a result, the conclusion: through the leaven is better. The texture of the crumb is softer, the taste is something!

[Kalmykova]

Kalmykova

I agree to all 100. Whatever one may say, but through the leaven-dough everything tastes better than directly into the dough. Even if the dough is leavened.

So I finally matured ... bread with dispersed (a tricky word) grain. My health improved a little and I immediately went to the kitchen, to the leaven. Here's what happened:

[suslja]

suslja, what an appetizing bread of yours, as much as drooling Bread also has healing properties, so get better and gain strength. I haven’t gotten myself up to the dispersed one yet, but you can ask a question along the way: you need to take some special grain for germination? And if so, where?

[suslja]

suslja, what an appetizing bread of yours, as much as drooling Bread also has healing properties, so get better and gain strength. I haven’t gotten myself up to the dispersed one yet, but you can ask a question along the way: you need to take some special grain for germination? And if so, where?

Kava, there are 50 times more nutrients in sprouted grain than in ordinary ones, we have it somewhere on the forum. And how to germinate, too, in another topic, "Wheat-rye bread on dispersed grain." And in short, buy clean grain on the market, sort it out, wash it thoroughly and leave it under a damp cloth until the sprouts are pecked. Now it takes about 20 hours. Then grind thoroughly, I do it in a blender, and it's done. Of all the breads that I bake, it is the softest, indescribably airy.

[suslja5004]

suslja5004

Bread is a handsome man! It means that things are on the mend. Do not be ill

kava

It is advisable to find wheat that has not been treated with all kinds of chemicals and fertilizers. It happens in supermarkets, it happens in markets where all kinds of dried fruits are sold. I have already seen such edible wheat in the markets in sealed bags.
You can simply explain to peasant women in the market what you are going to consume in order to reduce the likelihood of getting all kinds of chemistry. I usually trust my intuition in such cases, I choose such a granny who I want to believe))

Thank you girls, really the bread is so tasty, fragrant, it is impossible to come off. I was lucky with grain, my husband brought it from the village, his uncle is a farmer and does not poison wheat for himself

A highlight, of course, I can ask my relatives in Sanzheyk (my stepfather was the chief foreman there for many years, but they pickle any grain. Alas, the grandmothers in the market sell not their own grain, but what they get from the farm.

what, and what is sold in bags in supermarkets, is also pickled?
Does any benefit remain in it?

[suslja5004]

suslja5004what a beautiful bread turned out ... The crust gleams ...
I also bought wheat for germination. I thought about adding it to salads and to bread, but I just don't know how to grind the grains after germination - I don't have a blender.

And I also don't have a blender, so I twist it a couple of times in a meat grinder, through a fine grate .... and what to do?

A highlight, un-etched grain would simply crumble all sorts of bugs during storage. And the seeds of weeds are also poisoned. Today my parents had, I should have asked. I declare one thing with full responsibility: everything that grows in our south of Ukraine - fruits, vegetables, grains - cannot do without chemical processing, it simply will not grow.

Well, I don’t know .... My uncle, a farmer, says the chemkats are expensive nowadays, he practically does not use them, and what he grows for himself does not poison.

well, and what to do? To buy any grain and not bother or not to buy at all and refuse bread with dispersed grain? What's the point? Do they sell us flour from some other grain?

Girls, can I blurt out nonsense, and the grain should be in the shell (in the husk) or not? I didn’t see something in our sealed bags. And the one that sells for Christmas will not work?

I can say that I consider all current products to be conditionally edible, perhaps from my mother's garden, normal, and even then not all. So we will bake and eat from what is available. Here, yesterday there were 20 young peas on the market! hryvnia per kilogram, but they picked up from my mother and everyone is happy.

Kava, there is no grain without a shell, it’s future bran.! In, well, she said!

[kava]

kava

I also used what they sell for Christmas. Only it is inferior to real grain, like the outermost shell has been removed for quick cooking. : - \ something like this the technologist Vika told about this grain. Real grain in 20 minutes. you can't cook it, but it is exactly for such a time.

In short, I will take it in packages, and there - as luck would have it. In the end, I now also do not know what each kg of strawberries is stuffed with, which I send to myself.

We sell such wheat in Amstor. Germinates perfectly.