Icelandic black bread rugbruise (yeast-free)

[SvetaI]

In general, we did not like it, probably, the birds will go ...

SvetaI, Svetlana, well, taste and color ...
I wrote right away that this is not typical bread.
And I liked it with honey, and when I replaced almost everything with syrup, the taste is also not very good ...

1/3 less salt

I personally like its salty taste, I do not reduce salt (pink Himalayan treasure)

at 8 o'clock, 85 degrees

Why such a regime? My opinion is that it makes no sense to set the temperature less than 100 degrees. I bake at 120 degrees for the first hour, I wrote about it.
If you take baked goods in hot springs, then the temperature there is not lower than 100 degrees, for sure, since boiling springs have temperatures above 100 (my friend is a hydrogeologist, KFMN, I personally visited / measured many springs).
According to my observations, the cake version of the crumb is obtained precisely because of the combination of low temperature and layer thickness. The first time I baked bread 3-4 cm thick ready-made. It was not muffin at all and had been stored in a bag in the kitchen for over a week. And the next ones were much thicker, they turned out a cake crumb and were stored for only a few days, then the mold came
Well, yes ... strange Icelandic bread
But it is very tasty for us with red salted fish

For me, it's better to have a slightly sour taste than the taste of unprocessed soda.

Palych, Igor, do you want to bake on Liquid Yeast? And there is no soda, and no industrial yeast
I love them very much that I just didn't bake with them.

Infused

and here's the truth, I wonder how, such a well sooo long bread.
Although rye bread has never been fast.

Why such a regime? My opinion is that it makes no sense to set the temperature less than 100 degrees. I bake at 120 degrees for the first hour, I wrote about it.

The mode is to put it on at night, during the day my oven is busy. ... I was afraid that at 100 degrees during the night the cracker would come out. But, probably, you're right, you still need to get hotter, then the mold won't start so quickly and all the soda will be worked out.
I understood, I understood already, the conclusions are not final, we still have to try

at 100 degrees per night, the cracker will come out.

And so that there is no crouton, "just don't let him leave moisture "- cover / wrap the dish with foil and thereby get even closer to the authentic way of baking!
P.s. Aaaa ... I read, I read this topic, I lick my lips, I lick my lips ... but I only eat black bread from the whole family. And the fish to him is also just me. Moreover, the others do not tolerate it. Fiends

[Elena]

so that there is no crouton, "just don't let the moisture go away" - cover / wrap the mold with foil and thereby get even closer to the authentic baking method

Well yes, Elena, I did so. And also with the thought of getting closer to the authentic way of baking

[Elena_Kamch]

Elena_Kamch, nope, whatever the yeast is: live, dry, liquid, wild, etc. ... they are all fungi in fact.
That's at the expense of acid for the reaction of quenching soda and the release of this carbon we need. gas ... I read the topic-recipe for wheat-rye bread and its author writes / advises if they say you need and like a more sour taste of bread, then use most of the rye flour. What is my involuntary conclusion? It turns out that hw. flour has the properties of some kind of acidifier, and if I use it less (otherwise I exclude it altogether and replace it with "white"), then I need to add some oxidizing agent.

[Elena_Kamch]

Elena_Kamch, Linen, and I was still baking. I like.12-13 hours to "drive" the gas oven (even if there is no gas meter), I agree only for the sake of the full norm))
The result is the same:
After baking in a sealed container, it is better to keep it open for at least 12 hours, and in general, in the end, to withstand a day for a better even redistribution of moisture. How pumpernickel can withstand. It keeps well in the refrigerator, but I always keep bread there (we don't eat that much), and it gets better. Does not stick or crumble. Can be cut into thin slices. And I wouldn't say that it tastes and smells, well, straight, in the words of SvetaI, "very specific". I feel rye and c / s flour, soda - not at all. Again, I have everything according to the recipe, only half the salt and the baking time is long. Heavy and "hearty" - yes - but there is rye and whole grain again. With butter, oh, delicious - that's where the cupcake is))

It turns out that hw. flour has the properties of a certain acidifier

No, it is, on the contrary, sweet. For sourness, rye bread needs sourdough or agram, as is added in production.

[Inna]

Inna, but can you say, at least approximately, what was the temperature in the oven all these 12-13 hours? Or the temperature of the finished bread?

[Svetlana]

Svetlana, 100 - 110 degrees (ajar door plus a frying pan with water at the bottom). Most of the time it's 100.

[lady inna]

lady inna, and who to believe?) Googled on the phrase "flour acidity", yes, the lowest from 2.5-3 for wheat. a / c and as the grade it rises, for wallpaper under 5-6. Rye has a slightly higher acidity and the dynamics of its growth is exactly the same. T e coarse flour (wallpaper, purpose. Grain) - has an increase. acidity. Are they lying?

[Inna]

100 - 110 degrees

Thank you, Inna, so I was in vain worried that everything would dry out.

Googled on the phrase "flour acidity"

PalychRemember that the acidity of flour does not necessarily affect its taste. There is a lot of everything in flour, including sugar, and when yeast is working, all sorts of processes also go on. Therefore, the taste of the finished bread will depend on many factors, and the acidity of the flour is only one of them, and not the most significant

Rye has a slightly higher acidity and the dynamics of its growth is exactly the same. T e coarse flour (wallpaper, purpose. Grain) - has an increase. acidity. Are they lying?

No, they don't lie. You just don't have benchmarks to compare.
"The highest acidity is allowed for plain rye bread at 12 °. Wheat bread made from wholemeal flour has an acidity of 7 °. The rest of the wheat breads, especially those made from the highest grades of flour, are distinguished by low acidity (2.5 - 4 °)."

🔗

So the acidity of flour in the range of 2.5-5.5 is a low acidity, and I would say that the ranges for rye and wheat are approximately the same

I read the topic-recipe for wheat-rye bread and its author writes / advises if they say you need and like a more sour taste of bread, then use most of the rye flour. What is my involuntary conclusion?

You involuntarily draw the wrong conclusion! Apparently, the topic is about bread with biological leavening agents (yeast, bacteria), and these are completely different biochemical, microbiological, etc. processes. And to the story with rubgruise (oooh, I said it!) they have nothing to do at all! Therefore in this recipe hope only for the acid of kefir / whey and others like them.
Your option to add acid, if the sour milk is not very acidic, is quite the case! You can age the sour milk naturally. You can put less baking soda (theoretically. I did not consider it in relation to the recipe).

[Accomplishment]

Accomplishment,

Che, I did not understand. The acidity of flour and bread are two different things. The acidity of rye bread is usually high not because of flour, as a product, but because of the technology of its production: on leaven, which contains a large amount of lactic / acetic acid. The acidity of the flour itself is unlikely to be so important in this bread.

Or are you talking about the same thing, but I didn't understand?)))

About the same, about the same, but from the other side
Igor wrote:

It turns out that hw.flour has the properties of some kind of acidifier, and if I use it less (otherwise I exclude it altogether and replace it with "white"), then I need to add some oxidizing agent.

And I'm here for him tried to show that both wheat and rye flour, in terms of acidity, are in the range of completely non-acidic and well-known to the taste of wheat bread from the highest grades of flour. To make it clear what level of "sourness" in the everyday sense we are talking about.
And further, that the usual sourness of rye bread is associated with the processes occurring during fermentation (you say - leaven, I said - bacteria), and not at all with flour.

That's better ?!

[Lena]

All the problems with rugbreuze for some inexperienced bakers, I think, come from a slightly incorrect composition of the products.
Lena, nevertheless, correct the recipe - or leave only honey as an acidifier - this is yours version or clarify that the syrup must be invert, that is, also with sourness, and instead of soda Icelanders still use baking powder, again Thank you Natasha Chuchelka for the translation of the video.

And then from page to page the same questions and bewilderments - why is soda so audible? Yes, there is not enough acid.

I have already recommended this recipe to several people, but I think not everyone will carefully read all the pages.

instead of soda, Icelanders still use baking powder

Yeah, I missed that! Well, well, I like this much more!

[Accomplishment]

Accomplishment, nope, just soda recipes. It's a sin to talk about yeast in this thread). In general, I realized that flour, as a source of acids for the alkali reaction, is not essential. Its influence is negligible, right? And the author was simply mistaken. Excess acid is also not good, the crumb is compacted (usually at the bottom), less porosity, etc. ... if I read it correctly somewhere.

[Accomplishment]

Accomplishment, nope, just soda recipes. For yeast in this thread, it is a sin to speak.

Igor, give, pzhlst, link, I'm curious! And in that topic, ask the author what is behind this.

Its influence is negligible, right?

Exactly!

[Accomplishment]

Accomplishment, that, below in this section, the topic "lack of bread on kefir"
https://Mcooker-enn.tomathouse.com/index.php@option=com_smf&topic=512088.0 and below the author writes ... if you want to teach a pronounced sourness, just change the proportions of flour ...

If you want bread with a more pronounced acidity, then swap the proportions of flour and do not add sweetener.

That is, I understand that just taking most of the hw. flour and you can get a great sourness ... well, is everything logical? And the same components in fact ... flour, soda, kefir, salt ... but only by varying the psh / hr flour, you can change the "sourness" ... why did I get it wrong?)))

[Palych]

Palych,

Well, is everything logical?

It is logical, but from the evil one! Read on! The bread is baked once. Using his example, the author herself could not find out the effect of quantitative changes. There seems to be no theoretical basis either.

And the same components in fact ... flour, soda, kefir ...

Oh no! Not baking soda, but baking powder. So all the acid is kefiric!
P.s. Just noticed - don't take sweetener

Elena_Kamch, Lena, I'm sorry mentally for the off-top

[Palych]

Palych,

Rather, the taste perception will change, because rye flour / bread on it still has a different taste than wheat. Plus, don't just change the proportions of flour in places, but also remove the sweetener - it sounds in the recipe. That's all. Displacement of taste sensations. What sourness of flour / its severity (especially in the difference when the proportion changes - 25 grams !!))) you can talk about if you have 250 g of kefir and not even soda, namely baking powder (baking powder), which itself contains a source of acid for extinguishing soda. That is, the acids of kefir will react much less and will be preserved in the dough with acids. There, besides the acidity of kefir, you will not feel any other acidity. And by changing the proportions of flour, just change the shades of taste (and that is extremely insignificant, given that instead of 75 g you will have to put 100 g of rye flour) and this sourness will be felt differently.

[Scarecrow]

Scarecrow, in unison

[Scarecrow]

Scarecrow, everything, everything ... I understand ... I am studying, But such a swing ... affects / does not affect the "point", if you still put more acid, well, let's say a whole spoon, then its excess as reflected on the final product? Well, obviously the taste of soda will not be guaranteed, but the "sourness"?

[Igor]

Igor, well, that you, how small, right word!
Formulate the goal - get advice faster! Do you want something on the way out?

[Palych]

Palych,

On the physical and chemical side, the acids in the dough are needed for the development of gluten. If there is an excess of acid or it acts on flour proteins for too long (long fermentation), the reverse process of gluten destruction takes place. Of course, all this is about bread with a significant part of wheat flour, because there is practically no gluten in rye by nature - there is nothing to develop there.
And the sourness from the gustatory point of view is extremely individual. Just try it to your liking. Someone is the norm, someone is too much, someone likes it, someone does not. A striking example is the three-phase Hamelman rye bread, which is made on seasoned (i.e. well acidified) sourdough. It tastes to me - this is it, the classic rye bread of the Soviet period. Anya had little acid. She really needed sour - we discussed it there)). It is not without reason that wheat bread in Russia has always been called bread with sour dough (with sourdough, a piece of dough kept from previous baking and accumulated acid). Before the advent of yeast, bread was always sour. There was no other and did not know for hundreds of years and many generations. We are already used to something else. But I really don't like this sourness from the leaven in wheat bread. Taste and color. Try it.

[Igor,]

if, nevertheless, you put more acid, say, a whole spoon, then how does its excess affect the final product?

it will be just sour, and if not the increased acidity of the stomach, then you may like it, which I doubt.

Igor,Can you just follow the recipes, do as the specific recipe suggests? Why are you constantly trying to change the proportions, well, it’s clear that there will be at least a little, but a different taste, color and consistency. That is why there are different recipes, look for your taste or create it yourself.

Do you understand that you you do not want follow this recipe? Why are your inquiries? about white bread in xp

[Irsha]

Irsha, I will make such bread 3-4 times already, so there were different options and I hope not the last one. What makes you so confused? So from the first time you went your own way and no one reproached you ... I ask, but everything is strictly according to the components, without flooding and flame. To create something of your own, you must at least understand in more detail what you are doing. I bought it dry today. garlic, flax seeds and various other spices, I will mix it in, for variety ... or, like a parrot, copy everything stupidly a hundred times in a row))) ... or I personally bother you, annoy (((

.or I personally bother you, annoy

Oh well, Igor, don't you interfere. I just feel sorry for you - or do I see it that way? - well, you will not bake bread to your taste and at will. Although the recipes for soda dough are the simplest, there are no problems with yeast dough.
Therefore, she suggested - try not to change anything in the recipe, it may be easier for you.

[Irsha]

Irsha, that I play, I just have to occupy myself with something creatively)), since the summer I have retired, so I found something to do and useful (I don't know how much it costs right now) and a little cheaper and more useful. A day I can bake something two / three times ... and in multi "pins" something to cook, and before that I could only cook puree and roast ... I have a cool borscht the first time))), why should I feel sorry? !! I kind of develop, practical. I train, read information, collect "live" posts, consultations from you (pros), yes, bit by bit, not everything comes to mind so quickly and this is natural ... it takes time and practice



Irsha, I baked both in the cartoon and in the oven in st. form l7 and now I have been actively tormenting the bread maker for half a year and did it for a month, day by day, until I filled my hand with cold fermentation bread (without kneading, lazy) ...in a month, this rebreather will be "under me", as "I see him")), do you understand?

did you understand?

I understand, go for it, you have delicious bread, both in the cartoon, and in the oven, and in hp according to the recipes

Tell me that the manufacturing technique is similar and the composition of the bread is also

Heat. I remembered this bread. Minimum effort, multicooker baking:

Delicious

[M @ rtochka]

M @ rtochka, Daria, what a handsome man! I also bake it from time to time. For a variety of flavors

A very interesting recipe!
I studied all the pages of discussions, made conclusions for myself and interesting assumptions that are worth checking empirically. I have outlined a plan of experiments: to replace some of the wheat flour (I have no c / s) with rolled oats to add fiber; recalculate the proportions so that you can dispose of oatmeal from breakfast, what part of the wheat. flour can be replaced without sacrificing flavor / consistency; giving add. acidity, aroma and an increase in the amount of fiber due to ground apple skins (masking soda smell).
The first fantasy brave has already gone into the oven. Rye flour 400 gr invariably, premium wheat 80 gr, rolled oats 30 gr, honey, full-rate salts, baking powder, a mixture of fermented milk residues (seasoned yogurt, sour cream). I had to bring up to 800 g with rye kvass (150 g + rye malt), forgive me the author and connoisseurs of authenticity! No milk, no curdled milk, nothing at all found at home! And adding water would not be ice at all, as for me ...
I licked the dough - delicious! And salt seems to be the norm.
I'll bring the report tomorrow.

Bake. There is a feeling that it is a little softer than necessary - like a good loose cupcake ... In the photo, it felt denser than bread.
What aromas flew around the house all 3.5 hours, hell! Indeed, it looks like a gingerbread.
When it cools down, I'll cut off a piece.

[Tricia]

Tricia, Nastenka, hello! I'm glad the recipe is interesting.
I realized that for a denser consistency I need to bake longer. And the cupcake version spoils faster.
Write your impressions. This, of course, is not bread in our usual sense.

I have a report.
There is no smell of soda at all !!!
How delicious it is! And, surprisingly, my husband and son for almost 4 years agreed with me, which does not happen so often.
While the bread was ripening, the child ran and nibbled pieces from the edges, the amazing thing is nearby, he himself eats only tasty things, and the rest is almost out of hand.
Taste. The main and only minus is dullness, you need to think about how to deal with it (beforehand, I think I'll just bake it with a thinner layer or cakes or in a waffle iron and stand it for ripening in a bag or something else), because I don't have any other minuses in this bread found!
My changes in the recipe (baking powder instead of baking soda, full-rate salt, yogurt + sour cream + kvass + malt) worked, I got into taste preferences, now I'll work with the consistency.

One more point. We often eat impromptu first courses based on warm meat broth, for example, broth, boiled chicken, fresh cucumber, herbs, egg (beef, homemade ham, rye croutons, tomatoes, daikon, etc.) and this bread, crumbled in the broth gave an absolutely incredible flavor! It worked as a flavor enhancer, without clogging the rest, but enriching the overall bouquet. Delicious! The child ate with such pleasure, and I myself really enjoyed the combination of tastes.
So, I will not wait for the further ripening of the whole loaf, I will leave some, and the rest I will crush with my hands and dry in the oven, we will add to broths to enhance the taste.
Photo report. I apologize for the simple entourage, fotala quickly before dinner.




The edges are cut off normally, and then it's already tough.


From me the main advice that follows: not soda, take a fresh baking powder! And something sour milk is better as a liquid.

PS After Finnish bread, Swedish bread, sweet herring, etc., this bread is perceived as completely normal.
P. P. S.
Another use for bread: in a hot salad with champagne! While the mushrooms and onions were baked with ghee, I threw in a handful of bread, broken by hands. He absorbed mushroom juice, butter, onion aroma, a little fried - awesome taste !!!

[Tricia]

Tricia, Nastya, thank you for such a detailed report! And a very interesting idea about a hot salad!
In terms of cunning, in my opinion, you didn’t get baked. Didn’t you bake for 3.5 hours? I think we need a little longer

[Elena]

Elena, yes, it was necessary to keep it longer, 3.5 hours is really not enough in the oven and a little less liquid in the dough. I will try again!

I'm glad I liked the recipe! Even if your little son appreciated the kids you won't be fooled!