French starters

at 13:00 she softened 5 g of sourdough per 100 ml of water and 100 g. flour (it turned out 150ml)
at 20:00 it was 300ml
21:00 - 320ml, but it looks like it's starting to drop ...
As I understand it, it's time to urgently feed ...

Kapeliya777, do not despair, all is not lost yet.

That's right, you shouldn't despair. After all, this is not the worst thing in life.
But I am very confused by the combination of microwave and sourdough ... I sometimes warm milk in it until it is warm, so you miss it a little, and this temperature seems uncomfortable to your finger. And for sourdough - overheating is worse than underheating. I'm afraid all the bacteria might have overcooked ...

[klazy]

klazy
Yeah, it's time to feed. Just decide when you will bake again in order to decide how best to feed it and where to send it))

with a microwave, there is also a problem in that it warms up unevenly ... I just warmed the baby's puree - stirring it with a finger - in one place - hot, in another - cold.

[klazy]

klazy
decide when you will bake again in order to decide how best to feed it and where to send it))

I'll bake ... well, maybe in 2-3 days ...
thought to feed her 50 sourdough: 50 water: 50 flour and put on the balcony for the night ...
are there any other options?

I see.
So before baking it is better in large proportions, and in storage in smaller proportions, or vice versa?

I already to her this and that, with words and without words ... I tried many options. I liked the softening first and then feeding 1 to 1 or 1 to 2 before baking, depending on how quickly the starter should ripen.

I'll bake ... well, maybe in 2-3 days ...
thought to feed her 50 sourdough: 50 water: 50 flour and put on the balcony for the night ...
are there any other options?

And what is the temperature on your balcony? If the sourdough is such a greyhound, then you can take 25 sourdoughs: 50 water: 50 flour, let stand a little warm and for storage. But do not forget to look, so as not to miss the moment when it grows twice, then you will have to feed.

I'll bake ... well, maybe in 2-3 days ...
thought to feed her 50 sourdough: 50 water: 50 flour and put on the balcony for the night ...
are there any other options?

ote] Option - if you don't really want to sleep, then knead white bread in a small bread according to your favorite recipe, replacing part of the water and flour with sourdough, adding 0.5 tsp. l. yeast, and take out until morning in the cold. And in the morning, keep warm for an hour and bake. And leave 20-30g of sourdough and feed.

If the sourdough is such a greyhound, then you can take 25 sourdoughs: 50 water: 50 flour, let stand a little warm and for storage

late already fed 50:50:50. on the balcony + 13 + 15 somewhere ... it is glazed and with a battery, I was planning to make an office there, but I can't get myself together.

ote] Option - if you don't really want to sleep, then knead white bread in a small bread according to your favorite recipe, replacing part of the water and flour with sourdough, adding 0.5 tsp. l. yeast, and take out until morning in the cold. And in the morning keep warm for an hour and bake.

I've been thinking about this too ... I came to my computer to find a four-string of "long fermentation" so that I could spend the night in the refrigerator :))

Thank you girls. You are the power!

[klazy]

klazyHow glad I am that you now have a super active starter monster!
You can already start feeding her at 5 - 10 - 20 grams. starter cultures 50 -100 - 200 gr. water flour. She will not go anywhere, we have bred so many active bacteria there, just don't let it peroxide.
Once again I am convinced that if at least one living soul remains in the leaven, it can be revived!
Mine is now feeding 5 grams. sourdough for 50 + 50 and lives on the windowsill. I take a spoon for dough and again leave 5 grams. for feeding.I try to bake every other day.
If you will be baking every 2-3 days, it may make sense to keep it in small quantities.

[Viki!]

Thank you, Viki!
Without you, Zest would definitely not have worked ...

The sourdough on the balcony rose 2.5 times overnight, at 7 in the morning I separated it 1 st. l. and fed 100: 100 flour-water (why not 50 ??? did not wake up yet)
left her on the balcony, and there - the sun ... came in 3 hours - she had already risen 1.5 times what to do, where to run? if everything was like in a fairy tale - "pot, cook !!!", "pot - don't cook !!!"
and it seems to me that the secret of the mega-activity of my sourdough has come down to me ... I feed it with whole-grain flour ... somehow I got hooked on the "wallpaper rye" at the beginning - and siphoned off ... so this is not a French woman at all, does it?

And here's another, girls-experts, tell me ...
With the edge of my ear (I don't remember where ... here, on the bread maker, of course) I heard that sourdough can be substituted for dough in any recipes ...

Here, for example, is Lyudmila's recipe:

Recipe
for one peasant loaf weighing about 500g

Sponge way

large thick sponge
185g flour 1 sec.
6g compressed yeast
160g water

Knead for 10 minutes, fermentation for 4-4.5 hours at 28-30C.

Dough
115g flour 1 s
4.5 g salt

6 g sunflower oil
84g whey
0-25 g water

Knead for 12 minutes. Let the dough ferment for 20-40 minutes. Then everything is the same as in the accelerated method above - round, preliminary proofing, etc. Round, give 10 minutes of preliminary proofing and form a high round ball with a tight surface. Place on proofer for 40-50 minutes while the oven with a baking stone or cauldron with a lid is heating. Furnace 36-40min at 190-200C.

Does this mean that I can take, say, 320g of sourdough instead of a dough, then add to the dough not 115g of flour, but 25g more (what is missing in the sourdough), knead everything, distance it - and bake? Or is there a catch?

Yes, there are no dirty tricks here. Klazy, you can replace some of the dough with sourdough. Sourdough, in fact, is a dough. I'm baking French today. rustic bread, so his sourdough dough was set in the evening at 12 o'clock. That is, in fact, a fed leaven was obtained. Go for it!

[Viki]

Viki, I made a liquid starter according to your recommendations, everything turned out great! Thank you!
I have a question where to store it?

[Viki]

Viki, I made a liquid starter according to your recommendations, everything turned out great! Thank you!
I have a question where to store it?
I'm not Vicki, but keep the Sourdough nearby at a temperature not lower than 10 degrees, otherwise she will be offended. : :) If you keep it warm, you will have to feed it more often or lightly salt it.

Thank you!

So this is not a French woman at all, does it?

Nuuu, it's more like a whole grain sourdough. This is not the point. The main thing is that you have it healthy, strong, active and well-groomed. You can calmly transfer it to feeding with wheat flour, then it will become at least a little more predictable and not so hasty in terms of the ripening duration.

[klazy]

...... I heard that leaven can replace dough in any recipes ...
Here, for example, is Lyudmila's recipe:

Recipe
for one peasant loaf weighing about 500 .........
Does this mean that I can take, say, 320g of sourdough instead of a dough, then add to the dough not 115g of flour, but 25g more (what is missing in the sourdough), knead everything, distance it - and bake? Or is there a catch?

klazy, You absolutely exactly counted the recipe !!!
You DO NOT put the dough on for 4 - 4.5 hours, but immediately knead the dough.
Save 4.5 hours (then add to the vacation).
Just look at the proofing, you will quickly learn the time to select according to your leaven.
And the question for you is the leaven for you:
1. A means to open new horizons for baking bread?
2. A remedy to give up yeast?
3. A time saver for dough bread?
If not the second option, then I would add a little yeast. Why"? No, let's not "would" .... I have already added them (dry. 3 gr.) Here is my little peasant bun:

It is 320 gr. sourdough and 140 gr. flour in batch.

[You DO NOT put the dough on for 4 - 4.5 hours, but immediately knead the dough.
Save 4.5 hours (then add to the vacation).

but they will definitely add to the vacation, otherwise I was already worried all over - I do it, I do it, and no official notifications to you about how much has already come

As for the yeast ... they certainly don't bother me in such scanty quantities. Therefore, I calmly replace the yeast dough with sourdough, but when kneading the dough, I add a little less than half of the amount of yeast that was intended for the dough according to the recipe. I want to snatch even more extra time for vacation


If there is no time at all and I have to bake in a bread maker, I usually use the French program (I still put on the timer). I replace about 100 g of flour and 100 g of water from the recipe with sourdough, half the amount of yeast, I don't knead anything in advance, I just pour the sourdough onto the flour and set it on the timer for 8-9 hours. It makes good bread.

And the question for you is the leaven for you:
1. A means to open new horizons for baking bread?
2. A remedy to give up yeast?
3. A time saver for dough bread?
If not the second option, then I would add a little yeast.

1. - definitely ... otherwise you read recipes with sourdough and feel like in Soviet childhood with old cookbooks ... "take artichokes, add anchovies, sprinkle with capers ..." WHAT to take? What to add? WHAT to sprinkle with? what are such sourdoughs-makvaski? + here you hear from people "AH, what an aroma from sourdough bread !!!" - and I want myself right away

2. Give up yeast? I'm not sure ... I have already refused the dry ones (I keep a strategic reserve in the hall in case of an atomic war, and the pressed ones, in general, do not bother me yet.

3. I didn't even think about saving time for dough ... so, by chance I heard here ("here's your first benefit!" ©) ... besides the first point, the leaven was also attracted by the possibility of recycling old milk (yes, I - zhlib, zhlib ... just don't hit on the head ... 3 years of austerity in the anamnesis) ... but at MK sourdough I got bread with a beer spirit, but I don't like beer bread ... I have to milk still stick in the breads-cakes-pancakes-muffins.

No, let's not "would" .... I have already added them (dry. 3 gr.) Here is my little peasant bun:

bun - the mortality looks like never small, and I did not dare to take 1.5 kg on it - 3 types of wheat bread in the house - then already zanadto, IMHO, I baked something like Russian (although rye on wheat sourdough is unkourly, but "maєmo te scho maєmo")

but let's talk about adding yeast to sourdough bread ...

I calmly replace the yeast dough with sourdough, but when kneading the dough, I add a little less than half of the amount of yeast that was intended for the dough according to the recipe. I want to snatch even more extra time for vacation

As far as I understand, if you bake with sourdough, is it optimal to add half a portion of yeast to reduce the time of proofing? Even with this type of bread, I have a very long time to leave - is it from the "youth" of the leaven? what happens if you add more yeast - explodes?

Nuuu, it's more like a whole grain sourdough. This is not the point.

what about "not important"? important! So, I scraped up premium wheat flour at home, fed it to the sourdough ... maybe it's better to use the second grade or use the first? or is it all the same?

+ girls-masters, tell us more about the creation of rye sourdough on the basis of the French ... feed a spoon of the French woman 100: 100 rye flour and water? and after growing, you can already use it, no? although, I really liked the rye-wheat bread on my (as it turned out) whole-grain sourdough ... although some of them call it such promiscuity, the roof slightly sagged during baking - did he stand it? Or was it not necessary to lubricate the roof with warm water so diligently?

oh, virgins, so many questions !!! so many interesting things !!! dig out of here - before lunch ... I'll go pull out a carrot cake until it starts

[
Tell us more about the creation of a rye sourdough based on French ...a spoonful of French women to feed 100: 100 rye flour and water? and after growing, you can already use it, no? although, I really liked the rye-wheat bread on my (as it turned out) whole-grain sourdough ... although some of them call it such promiscuity, the roof slightly sagged during baking - did he stand it? or was it not necessary to lubricate the roof with warm water so diligently?

oh, virgins, so many questions !!! so many interesting things !!! dig from here - until lunchtime ... I'll go pull out a carrot cake until it starts

Klasy, I fed my leaven with rye flour and use it safely, although its smell is disgusting. But the taste and aroma of the bread are worth it. The roof of the bread collapses due to excess yeast or liquid in the dough. Try to reduce. Good luck.

[As far as I understand, if you bake with sourdough, is it optimal to add half a portion of yeast to reduce the time of proofing? Even with this version of bread, I have a very long time to leave - is it from the "youth" of the leaven? what happens if you add more yeast - explodes?]

As far as I understand, if you bake with sourdough, is it optimal to add half a portion of yeast to reduce the time of proofing? Even with this version of bread, I have a very long time to leave - is it from the "youth" of the leaven? what happens if you add more yeast - explodes?

Not certainly in that way. I was referring to recipes that include yeast dough. It can be completely and completely replaced with sourdough (taking into account the moisture content of your sourdough and the amount of flour-water in the recipe), and then, when kneading the dough, add a full norm of yeast that was intended for the dough. You don't need to add yeast. The proofing will simply take longer.
From everything that I have read and made sure from my own experience, I can say one thing - dough without dough is a "defective dough", it hardens faster and loses its properties. It is the dough that is the most important component that is responsible for the aroma and taste of the dough. During the maturation of the dough, some of the most important processes take place (the essence of which I did not want to delve into), which determine the taste and aroma.
The final rise of the dough no longer has such a fateful meaning, so it can be accelerated by adding yeast (although there are certainly some gourmets who will notice this difference)

We all have different life situations, so the most important thing for them is to find their own version.

Girls-beauties, there are still a couple of questions:

1. The critical mass of the leaven (a la nuclear physics) ... I know that it is recommended to start the leaven with large amounts of flour, but keeping it in small doses for a couple of days is not dangerous? Here, for example, after today's baking, I left 1 hour. l. sourdough and fed her 2 st. l. water and flour ... I can repeat this procedure several more times without increasing the mass of the leaven (that is, again leave 1 tsp. (discard the rest) and feed it at 20:20 flour-water ... or 50: 50 ... and then, when I get ready to bake it - to destroy it with a shock of 100: 100 or 150: 150? Isn't it exhausted from this?

2. Adaptation of oven recipes for a bread machine ... With the algorithm, for example, "kneading-proofing-kneading-proofing-forming-proofing-baking" - is there a need (in your opinion) to replace the "forming" with a kneading in the bread machine? I think that in rye bread, most likely, not, but in wheat sourdough? do they need to be kneaded in the same way as classic yeast ones? (oh, I'm afraid I'm confused in terms - correct me if that) ...

I wanted to ask something else - my head is full of holes

Thank you:))

[klazy]

klazy, everything is correct. You can easily keep a little starter and take a spoon for each feeding. (I'm doing this myself now). It will not deplete, because the proportions are correct. And it's easier to throw it away when there is not enough of it.
But regarding the alteration of the recipe for the oven for HP, I find it difficult to answer, because I am going (for now) in the opposite direction. But I am sure that this is possible and even many people use it.

: oGirls! poke your finger where to find the recipe for French sourdough - the one that is given at the very beginning does not open to me !!!! and so hunt to try ...
STEP-STEP-STEP-STA-STA ...

[alinysik,]

alinysik, that way

: oGirls! poke your finger where to find the French sourdough recipe

You can also see here: https://Mcooker-enn.tomathouse.com/in...&Itemid=26&topic=4994.360
Am I not very modest?

[kava]

kava, can you tell us more about the starter with the addition of oat flour? You have it very good

[Viki]

Viki, grand merci!

kava, beautiful bread!
Do you have it at all? Kneading (immediately with salt), proofing and baking? Fitted so well! How long did the proofing take? Was there yeast in the recipe? ... In general, give two (in the sense, give a recipe)

[Viki]

Viki, thank you very much for the photo and comments of the French sourdough, I made it on the 3rd day, though it's a little sour so far.
My first sourdough according to Kalvel was thick, well, and I was tormented with it, during that period when I was preparing it there was no rye flour, I had to use rye grits. I took her out for two weeks, and this one turned out so quickly.

and today I made rye on the basis of a Frenchwoman. HOW she flooded doubled in three hours really

How did you do it? Just fed rye flour, how many times?

once fed about 1 tbsp. l. sourdough 100: 100 rye flour and water (I'm not sure if this is technologically correct, but for now I'm going to do just that ... I'm not ready to play with a few sourdoughs :)) ... she stood for a couple of hours - and I put it on ... the bread, however, turned out to be taksybe - it fell during baking (it stopped, probably) + I forgot to salt it altogether ... I'll go to make crackers :)

Girls, I apologize, just got on the air. I had an opportunity - the scales flew - I gave it to me for repair, but I don't know how it will end yet. Therefore, the recipe turned out by eye (it's good that I have already trained it empirically).

400g wheat flour
100 g oat flour
150 g sourdough (in the morning I fed 50 sourdoughs: 100 flour: 100 water, baked in the evening)
approx. 5 g live yeast
250 g potato ovar
50 g mashed boiled potatoes
2 tablespoons vegetable oil
1.5 tsp. salt
1.5 tbsp. l. Sahara

Basic mode (3h, 18 min.)

The gingerbread man may need to be adjusted.

"I did everything the same, and after 7 hours she stands as if enchanted. What am I doing wrong ??? !!! Already spoiled, probably a bag of flour, even one of the experimental bread on the wrong sourdough was poisoned! And I also want a beautiful hole bread !!!!!!!!! "

The most important thing to do is not to do gags.
Once again, read the whole topic from the very beginning, make a diagram for yourself on a piece of paper as needed, as advised by Zest and Vicki (and only they, do not take others into account for now) and act according to this scheme.
If you combine all the recommendations and all the forum users at once, nothing will work out for sure.
And do not rush from side to side - choose this leaven, and only make it.

It should work. I did it, the girls are great, they explain and do well!

Recipe
for one peasant loaf weighing about 500g

Sponge way

large thick sponge
185g flour 1 sec.
6g compressed yeast
160g water

Knead for 10 minutes, fermentation for 4-4.5 hours at 28-30C.

Dough
115g flour 1 s
4.5 g salt

6 g sunflower oil
84g whey
0-25 g water

Knead for 12 minutes. Let the dough ferment for 20-40 minutes. Then everything is the same as in the accelerated method above - round, preliminary proofing, etc. Round, give 10 minutes of preliminary proofing and form a high round ball with a tight surface. Place on proofer for 40-50 minutes while the oven with a baking stone or cauldron with a lid is heating. Furnace 36-40min at 190-200C.

Does this mean that I can take, say, 320g of sourdough instead of a dough, then add to the dough not 115g of flour, but 25g more (what is missing in the sourdough), knead everything, distance it - and bake? Or is there a catch?

I was inspired by Viki's performance of a peasant roll and also decided ... what to tell you ... not enough ... not enough 500g for a family of 3 people and one baby ... the loaf left in its prime in one evening ... the crust is crispy , crumb - very delicate I recommend

wow !!! I learned how to radically reduce pictures! I will not wait for favors from nature now (from my husband, that is)

baked with sourdough "Leningradsky bread" (although according to the guest these breads should be 300g each, but I'm lazy ... I loaded everything into the oven on the "sweet bread" mode - and it turned out ... Easter cake)
the family said "there is no reason to offend besieged Leningrad!"

Recipe
for 3 loaves of 300g

(on sale they are 300g and 400g)

375g ripe dough (200g flour, 25g yeast or sourdough, 150g water)
285g flour
25g pressed yeast (only if the dough is sourdough, add this yeast to the dough
when you knead the dough)
5 g salt

100g water
80g eggs
100g sugar
125 g unsalted butter
0.5 g vanillin
100g raisins


I replaced the water with milk (well, I had to dispose of it), vanillin - with vanilla essence. The bread rested against the stove lid (next time I'll probably take 2/3 of the norm).
I only managed to take a picture:

[klazy]

klazyI'm shocked!
You just recently asked who is the leaven and what to do with it? Your cake is just a lovely sight!

[Viki]

Viki

it was not in vain that I said that klazy Soon all of us will be treated to colombi with panettons. And then all "wrap and wrap" - and she already knows how

[Viki]

Viki
it was not in vain that I said that soon she would treat us all with colombi and panetton.

Not in vain! Definitely not in vain! And most importantly - he is not afraid to experiment! I gave her a plus sign for this and I have no doubt that it is deserved. "For the will to win!"

oh, girls, you know that without you nothing would have happened.
+ I still have, as usual, a bunch of questions:

1. periodic feeding of the weakened sourdough with honey (somewhere I heard a ringing - I don't remember where) and how to understand that the sourdough needs doping?
2.Sometimes the raised sourdough has a very perforated structure, sometimes not very ... where to look for the cause:
* over / under
* thicker / thinner mix
* temperature regime (my starter culture is now wandering from one balcony (with a battery) to another (without it), but the street temperature fluctuates terribly)

Yes, and about the temperature regime ... I think, can I try to adapt a thermo-bag for storing the leaven?

[klazy]

klazy

do not be shy. Everything would be Just alone longer to look for answers. And collective experience is a very good thing.

Now on the questions:

1.Just make it a rule to add a little honey and rye flour every 6-7 days when feeding and that's it (I add half a teaspoon, because I keep the starter culture in a scanty amount);
The weakened sourdough becomes dry, grows more slowly, slightly changes in color, it is better not to bring it to such a state, but toss it periodically "tasty".

2. a leaven is a living organism, we also sometimes look different in the morning

Of course, all of the above matters here. The higher the temperature and the lower the amount of leaven, the faster it will "boil". A thick (dough) leaven ferments much more slowly than a liquid one. And the proportion of the old leaven to the new dough plays an equally important role.

It is better not to bring the sourdough to a "boil", but to feed it immediately, as soon as it doubles. Make yourself marks on the container.

How much temperature does the bag hold? I'll have to go down to the basement regularly ... until I decided that it's easier for me - to feed more often or to go down to the basement

Help with advice, made a solid French sourdough - everything was OK for two days, but today 300g + 300g of wheat flour + 120ml of water and I got a cool lump and no life after the indicated 8 hours, what should I do? Toss out?

[juliapr]

juliapr

If you are talking about Traditional French sourdough, then on the third day there is the following scheme:
Day 3. Take 300g of the resulting mixture and add 300g of white wheat flour and 150g of cold water to it (5C). Knead a dense dough, leave to ferment for 12 hours at room T.

There will be no significant rise. At best, 40-50 percent. So, don't throw anything away yet, wait until 12 o'clock and proceed according to the scheme.

because I keep the starter culture in a scanty amount

Zest, and minuscule is how much? And how do you manage to reduce it to minuscule? : - \ And then I already have a farm, I don't have time to use it, but it's a pity to throw it away.
Shl. Yes, for the purity of the breed, I have developed a new French sourdough. The heating has already been turned off, it has become cooler, but it is still growing and multiplying very actively.

.... cool lump and no life after the specified 8 hours, what to do? Toss out?

Don't throw anything away. Everything is going as it should.The peak of her activity will be the end of the "growing" process when she is in the refrigerator, and then warms up. Then she will show you her French temperament

Girls, please tell me on which page is there an instruction for growing French sourdough? I have already read almost half of it, the links in the first message do not open for me, then I saw the instruction, but I think it is not complete, since it does not say about activation, storage and without comments, only proportions, it is also not clear whether it is thick or liquid I repent , I haven't read this post to the end, there are a lot of messages, I get lost.
And many questions immediately arose:
1. Is it possible to reduce the given recipe for growing sourdough by at least 2 times?, It seems to me that it will turn out a lot, I don't need so much.
2. What to do with the surplus after each time (feeding)? Only a part is taken ...
3. 5th day it is said that you need to keep in the refrigerator for 24 hours. But what about the lactic bacteria that can die? I do not know how many degrees I have in the refrigerator, suddenly it is less than necessary, then what to do?
4. Although I haven't found the instruction yet, which is better to grow liquid or thick, which is better in storage later?

Kseny, a detailed photo report on growing French sourdough in this thread answer # 372 from Viki.
The leaven is liquid.
I don’t know what to do with the leftover leaven. Throwing away is a pity, but baking every day is unrealistic. I myself ask everyone how to minimize the amount of leaven. I do not store it in the refrigerator, I keep it either on the windowsill (the heating was turned off - it became colder) or on the loggia (it does not go below 13 C anymore)

[Kseny]

Kseny

The first part of the question has already been answered by kava. See there the sequence of steps for growing sourdough. Unfortunately, Lyudmila, whose journal links were given in this thread, closed it, so you could not open them.

Now on the questions:

1. The given recipe for cultivation CANNOT be reduced, this is the minimum critical mass for the formation of a community of "correct" microorganisms.
2. Throw away the surplus after each feeding during the CULTIVATION of the starter culture ruthlessly. They are teeming with bacteria of unknown origin, and "ours" have not won there yet.
3. You do not leave it in the refrigerator for a long time, but for 24 hours, which means that the technological necessity of such a moment at the growing stage was calculated by the creator of the starter culture.
4. It is easier to handle liquid, while storage - thick. But one is then easily transferred to another.

The zest can be repeated once more for those "who are on an armored train": when the leaven has already risen 2-2.5 times, then: a) it needs to be halved and fed, b) take part for the dough for bread, and the rest should be halved and feed, c) leave it for 2 days (if I'm not going to bake it now), and then halve it and feed it?