Bread makers Panasonic SD-2500, SD-2501, SD-2502, SD-2510, SD-2511, SD-2512 ... (4)

[Svetlana]

Svetlana, I think there are many of us here, I also periodically clean bookmarks

[Mandraik Ludmila]

Mandraik Ludmila, Luda, I sometimes find myself on the "retro recipes" that were posted at the dawn of the HP site. And everything that is a discovery for me is a long past stage for the KP natives. I feel like a "young student". It feels so good

Please, in more detail if it is possible at the expense of milk ... it turns out something like baked will it taste like? (I'm not really into this)

Vlad, this is what Lyudmila lappl1 writes:

Question: Interesting, because, in theory, baked milk should also have this effect?

Lyudmila's answer: There is very little information on the Internet about tempered milk, practically none. But baked milk is in other conditions - at 100 * practically and for a long time. During this time, the proteins are likely to fold. And in tempered, this does not happen. On the contrary, all inaccessible substances at 90 * are converted into those available for the body. Although baked goods with baked milk are also good. First of all, with its taste and aroma!

Previously, almost everyone had tempered milk. I brought a can with three liters, boiled it and it slowly cools down due to the amount.

[Svetlana]

SvetlanaThank you very much It is interesting to try bread with baked milk in general

[Wlad]

WladVlad, please. I am glad to share new and interesting

Baked pure rye

This time the roof turned out to be rounded, the bread is rather soft, I added some bran, they kind of dried the bread, it is not as wet as without them.

Baking with tempered milk is of high quality, has a long shelf life and does not stale. This is due to the fact that milk contains substances - thiols, which have a depressing effect on the formation of gluten.

But baked milk is in other conditions - at 100 * practically and for a long time. During this time, the proteins are likely to fold. And in tempered, this does not happen.

Girls, today is the day of biochemical revelations, take it!
When the milk is tempered under the described conditions (90 ° C, 30 '), the casein of the milk remains intact, so it is resistant to high temperatures up to 130-150 °. But whey proteins are curtailed. Moreover, their sulfur-containing groups (called above thiols), and not only them, are in a free state. When such milk is added to the dough, these active groups interact with flour proteins (gluten).
When milk is languishing (prolonged heating), curdled whey proteins with their thiol and other active groups "attach" directly to casein in milk (aggregate with it). Therefore, when added to the dough, they are already "occupied" by casein, and they are not left for gluten




And, yes, milk is heated in a cartoon! 90-95 ° C, 4-8 h.

it tasted more like boiled,

The taste of boiled milk is given by just curdled whey proteins with free sulfur-containing groups. That is, in your milk, they have not yet begun to combine with casein. Either keep the milk on the same mode for longer, or choose another one with a higher temperature.

On the mode of milk porridge, in my cartoon baby, the temperature during cooking is maintained at 93 degrees, so 30 minutes on milk porridge and tempered milk is ready

Boiled milk taste gives ...

How should tempered milk taste like?

From what Elena wrote, as I understand it, tempered has the taste of boiled milk

as I understand it, tempered has the taste of boiled milk

And I think so.
If you're interested, here's more about tempered milk and a comparison of baking bread with two types of milk.
🔗

How wonderful I came across your reasoning, girls!

Tell me, please, is it possible to process the milk, pack it and freeze it? Will the properties you need for later use in baking be preserved?

[Svetlenki]

Svetlenki, Sveta, in this recipe Manya mentions tempered milk. (she may be aware of the freeze)
Roll with cottage cheese according to GOST # 24

Baked milk is great in a good thermos. Bring to a boil, pour into a preheated thermos, wait. All

Tempered milk can be made in the same way by adjusting the temperature and time!
I'll probably take it to the Lazy Club. It is not quite appropriate here, but in the topic of discussions

[$ vetLana]

Baked milk is great in a good thermos

And we don't need ghee! I know how to melt ... But this coat is a little different. Learning how to do tempering lazily would be great.

$ vetLana, Svetik, thanks

Learning how to do tempering lazily would be great.

Pour milk with a temperature of 92 degrees into a pre-heated thermos and keep it for 30 minutes. It should work. I'll definitely try! Then I will unsubscribe, in a week

Pour milk with a temperature of 92 degrees into a pre-heated thermos and hold for 30 minutes.

And what should be the temperature of the milk after 30 minutes? Somewhere 90? I just don't work much with thermoses, if the question seems stupid - sorry, girls

May fall even lower. Depends on the quality of the thermos. You have to try. Measure Before, Measure After, adjust the starting temperature. Or change the thermos

[Irinabr]

You have to try. Measure Before, Measure After, adjust the starting temperature. Or change the thermos

Irinabr,

Irina, I understand. Ideally, the closer to 92 the better ... Thank you!

Ideally, the closer to 92 the better ...

Light to 90 degrees. 92 - I give this inaccuracy, because the thermos will take a little on itself, well, so that at the end it will be about 90. But I myself did not do it on tempered milk, only here I found out that bread turns out differently on it. So I have a pure theory, but it should work, right?

[at]

Girls, as I understand it, 30 ' at 93°.

Girls, as I understand it, 30 'at 93 °.

93? I went to correct my message
_____________
All the same 90.

Heidi bread is the whitest bread

The whole point is, the milk should cool slowly. I boil the milk, pour it into a thermos immediately. It stands there. half an hour or an hour, maybe more. Then I pour it into a jar and into the refrigerator (I do all this a day before baking). Lyuda (the one from LJ) says that a thermos is only for the fact that there is not enough milk, if you take a large volume, then everything will slowly cool down by itself.

[Irinabr]

Irinabr, thanks for the recipe for baked milk in a thermos, great idea!

Where is this "lazy club"? I really need to go there)))

[asena]

asena, here Lazy Club, or Useful Lazy Tips

Where is this "lazy club"? I really need to go there)))

Lazy Club, or Useful Lazy Tips

I tried it a couple of times in a thermos. Did not like. In the cartoon it is a thousand times more mellow and tastier. And so much so that you can drink the whole pot in one sitting.

And in a thermos ...

[Mandraik Ludmila]

Mandraik Ludmila, Wit, thanks for the link, I'll go study))
I don't have a multicooker, so only a thermos.
I have already learned, thanks to the forum, to make sour cream and yogurt in the oven I will continue the milk experiments)

Girls, as I understand it, 30 'at 93 °.

This is the mode of Lyudmilina's multicooker

On the mode of milk porridge, in my cartoon baby, the temperature during cooking is maintained at 93 degrees, so 30 minutes on milk porridge and tempered milk is ready

It jumped at me somewhere.
In fact, the range of denaturation of whey proteins is from 62 ° to 96 °. At 96 °, already the most heat-resistant of them degenerate. So the higher the temperature, up to 96 °, the more whey proteins will curdle.

I baked milk bread, in baked milk, from a recipe book that I expected some unusual taste ... but was a little disappointed ... a very weak taste turned out, even I would say that it is not a taste but an aftertaste ...
Probably my milk turned out this way, not very melted ... Although it had a delicious smell and the color turned out as expected

[WLAD]

a very weak taste turned out, even I would say that not a taste but an aftertaste ...

WLADYou baked bread from this milk, and did not make cottage cheese. Bread should smell like bread, and all additives should give an aftertaste. Well, I think so.
Although from your posts I see that you are a lover of bright tastes in bread. And I rarely bake such, they quickly become boring, unlike ordinary bread with undertones and aftertastes ...

[Svetlana]

Svetlana, I like a crow, I love everything bright and shiny ... a joke of course, but in general I wanted to taste what kind of bread it would taste like, for some reason I thought that the taste would be more pronounced ...
I do not have so many bread recipes used, Darnitsky from a fugasca but with garlic and apples, dairy, but usual.

raw milk inhibits gluten. BUT .. "depressing" is a loose concept. It's one thing when cake, where butter + sugar is already a heavy load and milk is heated so that it does not contribute to the already heavy load. Milk in the kulich is far from the main flavoring element, and besides, for the kulich, they took fat milk all their lives, the most satisfying and high quality. Concentrated. That is, it is strong in terms of a weakening effect and least of all changes the milk taste when heated.

It's another matter when ordinary bread and strong baking flour, and low-fat milk from the supermarket.
She will eat your milk and will not choke))), but the taste of milk will become much more neutral when heated, which Vlad noticed.
Milk is heated not for taste, but for the convenience of gluten.
From this, Vlad correctly noted that it is completely unnecessary to heat ordinary low-fat milk for bread, if the milk taste is needed milder. But if the milk is from a cow, then it is a completely different matter.
And your fabulous "white bread" comes out with a different taste not so much because of milk, but because baking takes place at temperatures below the caramelization of sugars. Milk syrup is one thing, caramel is another.

About its special properties - complete bullshit. There is the most ordinary gluten))), namely gluten is difficult for the digestive tract.
A complete analogy with a cutlet at high temperatures, when the top is crusty and brown, and long languor with low caramelization, but under the lid. The composition is the same, the taste is slightly different. Well, shrinkage is less in conditions of low temperature, but in a humid environment.

[fffuntic]

fffuntic,

crusts are usually attributed to melanoid formation rather than caramelization. And melanoidins - are formed under milder conditions, causing, in particular, the color of the bread crust

[Elena]

Yes .. what else. Bread and milk contain some of the live MCBs, which are already scarce in milk from the supermarket. And when languishing, they do not remain at all (well, or remains, but very few). That is, there will be a simplification of taste. For Easter cake, this is also not fundamental, because as a rule it is made on dough, in which the truncated what needs to be accumulated. But for bread, and even with a shortened fermentation cycle, this will be expressed in a more uninteresting taste.
That is, if you are drowning milk from a supermarket, then it is imperative to add a little whey (sourdough - well, at least a string of bacteria) to cover the lack of tasty bacteria.
When you read this advice, take into account your personal conditions. Milk is different, flour is different, recipes are different, fermentation mode is different.




Elena, I'm not a chemist, I can use inaccuracies in the names. If you poke around, then truncated there rests on the modifications of sugars at elevated temperatures. This slightly changes the taste, but does not change the usefulness. The lower the temperature - the sugar remains more unchanged sugar, that's the whole difference.

If there is evidence that radical changes are taking place in this bread, I will gladly take a look.Just the version about the miraculous baked milk does not stand up to criticism. And baking at low temperatures makes the taste more neutral, but I do not agree about the acquisition of new useful properties.

[Lena]

LenaThanks for the valuable information

[fffuntic]

Ladies and gentlemen! In advance I ask you to excuse me for the unfavorable emotional situation that may arise as a result of my this post. Hope for understanding .
fffuntic,

Elena, this is nothing personal, but you have mixed horses, people all in one heap. You are probably an experienced baker who intuitively draws the right conclusions and bakes wonderful bread, but you dumped such a mess of distorted facts on the members of the forum that I just shudder at the thought that tomorrow this someone copy-paste, and a couple of fresh myths will be born.

If you poke around, then truncated there rests on the modifications of sugars at elevated temperatures.

And if not poking around, then "life is a form of existence of protein bodies." At least people, at least ... ICD.

And melanoid formation does not come close to caramelization, not only in the chemistry of the process, but, most importantly in our case, in terms of the flow conditions!

And you do not just use the names inaccurately, you do not own the concepts that stand behind these "names". Therefore, your cutlet crust is equal to a caramel cockerel, and tempered milk is equal to baked milk. And here the fat content of milk is generally not clear.

Bread and milk contain some of the live MCBs, which are already scarce in milk from the supermarket

Here I really don't know what to do, or. It's good that we do not live in Stalinist times. For this phrase of yours, the heads would fly from the wrecking shoulders, who allowed "living creatures" in milk.
I will open a terrible secret, milk from the supermarket (we are talking about pasteurized, as I understand it) in general NOT contains "live bacteria". It is pasteurized for this, and from that it is stored in the refrigerator for 5 days. And the bacterial spores that it contains, during the fermentation of the dough, even on dough, do not have time to do anything while awake (if they woke up at all, which I doubt) do not have time. Therefore, everything that goes on about the uninteresting taste in connection with the ICD is pure demagoguery.
Sourdough whey is great, I use it myself. But this is a completely different story, not a story about milk dough.

If there is evidence that radical changes are taking place in this bread, I will gladly take a look.

I don’t understand at all what “this” bread has to do with it. However, if you need some proof, no help.

Wlad, right to you SvetaI answered. You do not concentrate milk in baked goods, but, on the contrary, "smear" it over the dough. Elementary sensitivity of receptors is not enough to grasp the nuances of taste. In general, high expectations often end in disappointment.

And your fabulous "white bread"

He's not ours. It was sung by Luda lappl1 and referred to Luda's LJ.

In addition, I prepared the milk in a special way - ** tempered, that is, I first brought it to a boil, and then kept it at 90 * C for 30 minutes. Luda wrote about this method in her LiveJournal. Baking with tempered milk is of high quality, has a long shelf life and does not stale. This is due to the fact that milk contains substances - thiols, which inhibit the formation of gluten. When milk is kept at 90 * C for 30 minutes, thiols are destroyed, and the dough is enriched with amino acids, sugars, proteins and fats contained in milk. I used this technique for the first time when baking cakes. And she was convinced of the validity of Luda's observations. The cakes turned out to be very lush, tall compared to cakes made with ordinary milk, and did not stale for a long time.
You can keep milk in the oven at 90 *. But Luda offers another way of tempering - in a thermos. To do this, you must first bring the milk to a boil (do not boil!).

About its special properties - complete bullshit.

I am not a chemist

If there is evidence that radical changes are taking place in this bread, I will gladly read

Just the version about the miraculous baked milk does not stand up to criticism.

We are about tempered

[Elena]

Girls,

Well, you like to temper milk from the supermarket, well, temper it. If you think that bread is acquiring chic new properties - consider it.
As for me, it is with great pleasure that I honor those who understand the issue better than me without any offense. With great pleasure I will correct myself when I am wrong. I have never pretended to be an experienced baker. I am writing a purely personal opinion for a friendly get-together, which I have repeatedly mentioned.
But in this case, you have not convinced me. I may be wrong in my definitions.
In no case do I even keep in my head to challenge the opinion of the wonderful Lyuda - she is my teacher. But I am deeply not sure that the untempered milk from our supermarket acquires such better properties as a result of tempering. Rather, in practice, I did not see it. When I was studying, I tried to do everything right, right. And temper it, heating it three times and keeping it, though in a thermos, as Luda described.
But for me - girls, only for me - and you, if you like it, then do, so the game is not worth the candle. I did not notice the acquisition of a fabulous taste. From this I concluded that the milk is already sold empty enough to spoil something there.
But if someone feels the difference, then do it for health.
Then ... pasteurized milk, at least some of the purchased milk sour perfectly)))) Pasteurization does not make milk completely "lifeless"))) well, at least in my refrigerator)).
Then, like Vlad, I noticed that I like bread in panasik more with just milk. If I temper milk, then without whey I generally don't like this option, it's more tasteless.
So think whatever you want, disagree with me - no problem, but try tempered milk + whey
That is, I am wary of drawing theoretical conclusions for all occasions.

I will just repeat that my personal experience has shown that in some cases, namely when buying milk in my supermarket, tempering did not change its properties much. I'm already silent about sterilized milk. For me, messing with him is just time to translate.
I didn’t come to a test on high-quality country milk, although I believe that the whole theory works just for such "very milk" milk.

The fast is aimed at making the bread tastier and tastier.

Elena, I completely agree with your criticism of me. In my defense, I will say that I drew the analogy badly, but the essence, although with a great error, I tried to convey correctly.
That is: if the bread is wheat with gluten, then the main load on the digestive tract is due to gluten. And no modification of milk + temperature changes in baking can make such bread healthier.
Let not caramelization, let meladin formation .. but it only drastically affects the color and crumb, but in no way makes this bread miraculously useful.
That is, you should not treat this bread as useful. The most common wheat bread.

Wheat bread becomes healthier as always, alas, only with prolonged fermentation, unambiguously with high-quality use of starter cultures, with a deep transformation of this very gluten.

Len, you are great! I understand that I checked the facts.
I read diagonally both the white bread recipe and the original blog. For your reference. I was not going to repeat and I am not going to - it didn’t work. I wrote here only to explain the differences between tempered and baked milk whatever benefits / technological impact on dough in whole and gluten in particular.

Due to circumstances, just recently I was diligently looking for information about how raw milk differs from pasteurized milk in the context of proteins.So, the changes during pasteurization are the same as during tempering - whey proteins denature (fold) and aggregate (stick together) with casein. Depending on the t pasteurization, this process involves a different amount of proteins. And the range is almost from 60 to more than 90 ° (Different times. I will not search and specify now). Therefore, tempering pasteurized milk may not have any effect - everything has already happened to one degree or another during pasteurization.

I'll write about the bacteria later, I'm running away right now.

I can't say anything about the beneficial properties, I remember that when I read it, I noticed a bunch of inconsistencies with my knowledge, confusion with processes such as enrichment with amino acids, etc. Because very few people get into the essence.
And the author of the bread, Luda, indicated whether her milk was raw or pasteurized? I think I know the answer - no. Otherwise, everyone would have paid attention.



And, well, while I was writing, you've already finished writing about raw milk. With the sterilized there is nothing to catch, that's right.

That is, I am wary of drawing theoretical conclusions for all occasions.

[any]

In fact, I don't like to argue at all. I was motivated to the post by the general enthusiasm to temper any milk.

Also, when I was learning to bake cakes, I tried to notice every detail. Therefore, the milk was tempered with great diligence.
Then she scored on this business with purchased milk, and for a concentrated milk taste she began to add dry, well, always a little whey.
And mnu now has such a period that it is also "useful-not useful" has become very important, and wheat bread is banned in the family. Well, the general enthusiasm to make wheat bread useful with milk caused sarcastic laughter, quite bitter, because I adore wheat bread, and now I practically do not bake it and, alas, there is no way to fix the situation with milk.
But with great interest I learned from you exactly the scientific explanation of the benefits of tempering. And a special thank you that you are really very clear about the definitions and give a comprehensive picture of the phenomenon.




There is also no unambiguous personal opinion about ICD in pasteurized milk. Only personal experience. And he says that the package is different from the package. One is souring humanly, that is, there is definitely an ICD, and the other will stand for half a year and at least that to him.
That is, manufacturers have to change. I also read from Lyuda that this may be really simply due to the high sterility of milk, or maybe antibiotics ... You can check it by throwing a piece of rye bread. If the milk sour well, it means it was just sterile.
That is, the fact that very pure pasteurized milk is found is also a fact proven in practice.
To delve into the theory of pasteurization is lazy. Out of the corner of your ear, it seems like milk is considered alive there, that is, according to GOST, something useful from the living must survive. But I don’t want to assert without support, study this issue yourself.

Moreover, theory is theory, but what you buy is what you get in practice. And then prove to the purchased package that it is wrong in theory



It would be interesting for me to investigate something other than milk in this bread. This is the question of baking at low temperatures. This is not the case in official baking. Why?
This lengthens the production process - understandably. But if it would have tasted better and would have improved consumer properties, it would not have stopped production.
Why is this method not applied officially? Technologically, bread within the required 96-98 reaches, that is, it must be absolutely ready.
How critical is this weak conversion of sugars? Maybe on the contrary, such bread is less digestible? If you have time, rummage at your leisure and on this issue.

[Lena]

LenaAs far as I understand, in HP the baking temperature is below 180 degrees, right? If so, it is the lower baking temperature that makes the bread less tasty, at least for my family. Because we like bread that is mixed according to the same recipe in a sponge way and baked in the oven more than baked in KhP. Checked repeatedly. That's why I bake all the time in the oven.In the oven, for the first 15 minutes I bake with steam at 220 degrees, then I remove the remaining water and lower the temperature to 180.

About lactic acid fermentation.

There is also no unambiguous personal opinion about ICD in pasteurized milk. Only personal experience. And he says that the package is different from the package. One is souring humanly, that is, there is definitely an ICD, and the other will stand for half a year and at least that to him.
That is, manufacturers have to change. I also read from Lyuda that this can be really simply due to the high sterility of milk, and maybe antibiotics ... You can check it by throwing a piece of rye bread. If the milk sour well, it means it was just sterile.

Pasteurized milk is NOT sterile!
In it, the "germs of life" remain in the form of bacterial spores - (they are created by nature to experience adverse conditions. Very much dehydrated). These disputes inevitably "come to life" in the presence accessible water. At refrigerator temperatures, this apparently takes about 5-7 days - this storage period is indicated on the bags. The temperature is also indicated - about 2-6 ° (there is available moisture). At this temperature, the spores slowly accumulate moisture and turn into bacteria. Those slowly begin to multiply. t low, speed low, but progress is in progress! The longer the milk is in the refrigerator, the more sluggishly functioning bacteria it contains. The sooner they will ferment milk when they are in favorable conditions (warm).
In the summer heat, there were episodes when children brought yesterday's milk from the store already sour (now I give clear instructions on dates). Most likely, somewhere in the process of transportation, storage conditions were not met. The spores quickly revived, the bacteria quickly multiplied and fermented the milk much faster than in a week.
I don’t buy sterilized milk, but heavy cream - yes. And it happens - you spend it according to the recipe, but some remains. Here sterile products do not turn sour, they deteriorate differently. Another microflora is introduced into it from the air, milk / cream becomes bitter. But if you throw sourdough into them in time (sour cream, for example), then the usual lactic acid fermentation will go.
I buy short shelf life milk from local producers. It didn't happen that it didn't turn sour. Antibiotics are scary!

About "white bread"

Technologically, bread within the required 96-98 reaches, that is, it must be absolutely ready.
How critical is this weak conversion of sugars? Maybe on the contrary, such bread is less digestible? If you have time, rummage at your leisure and on this issue.

This bread did not interest me, as I wrote above
Offhand ("purely theoretically" (p.)) I will say this: everything that happens inside ordinary bread under normal baking modes in this bread by the time it reaches 96-98 ° also happens. Due to a smoother set of temperature in it, microorganisms may work a little longer, gluten is able to stretch a little longer.
About the crust so. Melanoid formation does not go or is weak if:
1. lack of reactive substances (few sugars and / or amino acids);
2. The temperature is not high enough for the reaction to proceed.
The temperature factor is obvious. About the lack of components - I don't know, you need to look at the recipe
By the way, as I remember, we do not assimilate melanoidins.

You have a symposium of funny milkmen here ... sat, read and got completely confused

[Waist]

Ask specific questions, if we know - we will explain.

symposium of funny milkmen

Amused

Only, probably, there is some topic about milk in baking? And then here, in principle, off-top.
Waist, Natasha? What do you think?

I think that Natalya thinks that this is not offtopic.
I want to ask, but without steam in the oven, you can bake bread according to the algorithm 15 minutes-200 degrees and 180 degrees the remaining time? How much is this?

[Vitaly]

Vitaly, depends on the oven. I bake for 15 minutes with steam and 15 minutes without at a lower temperature, otherwise the bread will burn Without steam, if it is better to cover the bread with something. This is necessary so that the crust does not set very quickly when the bread is still growing. Ie.I put it in an oven preheated to 250 degrees and turn it down to 220. The bread rises very sharply. If the crust sets quickly, it will simply burst. For this, cuts are made. But the ciabatta is not cut, since her dough is already very wet, it does not crack so much. If the oven is in a mold, then neither steam nor a bread cap is needed, since the crust is formed a little differently in the form.

And you can find out in more detail how to bake bread without a shape in the oven, so that there is steam, as far as I understand, it is necessary to put some kind of container with water in the oven too?

[Wlad]

Wlad, the site has many recipes for baking bread in the oven. Look.

[Svetlana]

Svetlana, thank you ... I didn't think about it myself
...
It turns out that a stone is needed ... I don't have it ... so I'll have to forget about the oven

[Vlad]

Vlad, yes lan ... just forget it. Well, a stone is ideal, but firstly, you can heat an inverted baking sheet, or even two.
Then .. you can throw pieces of ice on a hot bottom or a heated mold at the bottom of the oven, they will start dancing and not immediately melt. You will have steam.
Thirdly, you can bake, covered with a mold. This will be closer to HP conditions. That is, baking in a steam bath)))

Anchic, Anya... Everything is more complicated there. I will look later from Lyuda for a full article on how baking in KHP is special. In the oven, we heat up to 250, but it is large and cools more. In reality, next to bread, the temperature immediately drops.
And in KhP, around the bread, the temperature is also quite high, almost like in an oven.
But there it is more about a small enclosed space, from which the evaporation of moisture is not so intense. The bread is baked in a steam bath.
Therefore, baking in HP and White bread for low-temperature baking are completely different. In HP, it's like in an oven, but under a lid, or something. And White bread ... I don't even know what to say. One of the processes in classic baking does not start there, the one due to which there is no darkening of the crumb and crust. I don't know what it affects in terms of the digestibility of bread.