Bread makers Panasonic SD-2500, SD-2501, SD-2502, SD-2510, SD-2511, SD-2512 ... (4)

And this could not be the most notorious potato disease?

Unlikely. When I encountered contaminated flour, the bread on the first day was absolutely normal. Both the smell and the taste. On the second day I don't really remember, but on the third day a nasty smell of yeast appeared and the crumb became sticky, smeared.

Anything can get sick. And milk, and flour, and whey ... and in the advanced stage of the disease, it is visible immediately, and at the initial stage, fortune-telling begins.

If the cows were treated with antibiotics or the feed was changed, or there was a calving - maybe what else .. milk and whey can acquire an off-taste, this may not be dangerous to health, but give a taste or smell. Flour could get sick not only with potato disease, there are a lot of these degradations.

What I mean. Yes, that well, try each ingredient to taste, bitter or not, smells or not?
flour should not be bitter and have a rotten smell. It is fresh and generally pleasant to the taste, while lying down is simply tasteless. Bitter must be mercilessly given to the birds
Fresh whey is generally tasty, and stale whey tastes tasteless, but it shouldn't stink. Lick it carefully - it shouldn't taste bitter either.
There may be left-handed yeast, I once encountered such a case. The yeast was smudged, although it smelled normal. As I later found out, this is if you recycle the stale ones again - that is, the manufacturer cheated.

Basically, every ingredient needs to be researched and tasted.

Then we must remember that CH is a special flour. It is a whole grain with all the oils that can turn rancid and with a bunch of active enzymes that are delicious to humans but destructive to gluten.
If you overexpose bread with CZ - nothing good will come of it. Gluten will break down there, which will be expressed in the opposite taste of the bread.
CZ, as a rule, cannot be treated like a c. from. Fermentation is shorter and in colder conditions, the kneading is gentle.
Even a simple addition of CZ changes bread. The active substances of CZ immediately begin to attack the total gluten and the question is how much will it withstand.
And the CP activity depends on the batch of flour, on the seasonal conditions of CP growth.
The lack of smell or tasteless aftertaste in bread can be explained by the fact that CG has managed to reach the initial line of its destructive effect. That is, I have not yet done everything, but it is already noticeable.

This means trying to change the mixing conditions to shorter and more gentle in terms of mechanical stress and temperature.

ah ... more.

Serum + CH = killing power in terms of activity. Serum enhances the effect of CZ. Yeast ferments better and more actively on whey and on CH.
In general, when using this artillery, one must look after the bread. In order not to ferment, not to stand.
It's hard to say what exactly happened, Natasha.
Either the regime turned out to be long and very warm, the CZ managed to spoil the bread.
Either the ingredient began to deteriorate.
Either the yeast, having eaten the sweets, fermented the bread.

You can try on diet baking, and not on the main mode. Dietetic is colder and softer.
And what's wrong with your roof? if good, leave the same amount of yeast, otherwise reduce its amount a little.

CZ .. what is written in FIG. In the store they could keep it near the battery Lick her. If bitter or nasty, go to the trash heap.

[st]

I use rye and bake. I have just read that the temperature can rise too much during the proofing. Tomorrow, nevertheless, I'll try to take it to the repair, whatever they say.

What will they say? According to the instructions, in this mode you need to bake from 500 grams of flour, and you have only 400, because of this, there may be overheating.Although, if you have extra time, strength and nerves, you can drive to the service with a stove.

At first, the bread turned out to be normal (although I was worried that it was not high

Is the bread maker new? Perhaps at first her shades were not yet developed and warmed less. Now developed and overheated, because flour is not enough for this regime. Check the standard recipe for this program.

Recipe from the instruction:

2 tsp dry yeast
250 gr rye flour
250 gr wheat flour
2 tsp salt
2 tsp sugar or honey
2 st l vegetable oil
340 ml of water (According to the instructions, 360 ml is a lot for your flour).

Mode: Rye bread.

I baked another one with more sugar and less salt.

sugar adds nimbleness to the yeast, which gives ripening ahead of the program, hence the excessive porosity and the collapsed roof.

I can smell that Varvarki is overturning the dough ...
Natasha is right when she says, Overheating can take place ...
I just don’t understand why you don’t bake the same loaf with 1 spoonful of yeast on the Main. And all on Rye, but on Rye ...
I advised in the afternoon ... on the Main ...

[Varvarka]

Varvarka,
I'm not a specialist in mixed breads. So just about the process.

The fluffiness of the bread, the degree of its rise, depends solely on the gluten (wheat gluten) in the wheat flour. It is he who, as in ordinary wheat bread, must wander, stretch out into a 3D frame, on which clay will hang like meat
rye flour - which does not have the ability to rise at all. No gluten there, it's mess.
BUT
it active clay with substances that love to dirty wheat flour, destroying its gluten.
The degree of filthiness, that is, the strength of the active destruction of wheat gluten, depends on the characteristics of the purchased rye flour, that is, on the season, processing of rye.
Itself harmful in this sense wallpaper Rye flour.
Therefore, if the mixed bread does not turn out to be high, it means that the wheat gluten does not have enough strength to raise the bread.
Bread with a proportion of 50x50 is borderline bread.
If the proportion 60x40 wheat / rye usually rolls successfully without additional dances, then
50x50 already ... a full line to get fluffiness. May require additional effort.

In such a situation, I would advise you to strengthen the wheat flour with the addition of dry gluten (or even panifirin is gluten with additives), or to use a stronger wheat flour, or to increase the proportion of wheat flour in the direction of its increase.
You can increase the resistance of wheat by reducing the harmful activity of rye by adding acids, such as kefir, beer ..

So that the strength of gluten is enough to resist the destructive effects of the rye additive.

It worked on the topic before, but now it does not - it should be remembered that flour is a living organism. This is from the same series that milk and butter were different before. Yes .. that's right, the quality, activity, strength of flour depends on season to season, from batch to batch. There is practically nothing permanent in this life.
One should not hope for a permanent effect, but look for the cause and eliminate it.

As for salt, sugar.
Salt is very noticeable in bread. Adding salt has a positive effect on gluten and strengthens it. Excessive salt does not like yeast, it inhibits their work.
Therefore, the reduction in salt could not have a particular positive effect. There is not enough of it for the yeast to react, but gluten without salt is bad.
Sugar loves to eat yeast.
If the increase in sugar has a positive effect, this means that you made the yeast happy and it began to work more actively, that is, to loosen the bread.
But you have the same amount of sugar, and less yeast.

In terms of the chemical effect of sugar? well, nothing can be ruled out for sure, but it has to be a VERY chemical sugar to spoil the bread in such a small dosage.

What have you observed?
You switched to main mode for the first time and got a badly sunken roof. Correctly concluded: fermented. But in vain they blamed the whole yeast.
They worked fine, but wheat gluten doesn't hold gas, so he sat down.

You continued on the rye setting (less kneading and one kneading) with less yeast and less salt.
You still have the same weakness in gluten, the help from salt has decreased, but the rise has slightly improved.
Well, of course, the weak gluten was twisted less and stretched less, and it withstood a little better.
But with a decrease in yeast, our loosening is weaker.
Takeaway: you need to fortify wheat gluten or reduce the destructive effects of rye flour, not just reduce yeast. Otherwise, with the same success, you can refuse them altogether - then no one will stretch anything at all, and therefore will not fall

Which mode should you choose?
rye or plain.
Rye takes into account the peculiarities of the fact that rye flour greatly weakens gluten and that rye flour does not need any kneading at all. This mode is not for fluffy breads, but for those where clay rye flour predominates, and wheat flour does not ferment properly and does not raise the bread high. Where it is nailed and if you deceive it, then only one single time.

This recipe is 50:50. This implies the ability of the wheat to open up to the maximum. That is, both fermentation and kneading are required. For such a composition, it is better to choose the main mode, well strengthening wheat, if the rye is too active. In this mode, the effect on flour is strong, so it must be strengthened very well.

You can stay on the rye, a little less but also strengthening the gluten. But lifting and, most importantly, do not expect taste as the main one. An underexamined wheat component will give a simplified bread flavor.
Therefore .. strengthen (at choice: increase the amount, change to a stronger one, add dry gluten) wheat, give a slightly acidic medium or reduce a little rye flour - whichever you prefer.
If you want to extract the maximum taste and volume from the composition: choose the main mode, but wheat need bring to mind.
The minimum is to return to rye, then you can simply reduce the amount of rye flour to a digestible one.

Varvarka, you specified
the inside is almost always poorly baked.
this is a very important symptom. The damp crumb is a direct consequence of the destructive effects of rye flour. In your tandem wheat-rye, rye strongly kills wheat. And which of them is so bad: either the wheat is too weak, or the rye is too active - this cannot be said for sure.
In practice, it is necessary to shift the proportion and follow the effect. Well, I have already written a treatise above.



And of course you can go around the services, if not laziness. Well, if you’re lazy, then maybe it’s better to start by testing the service manual?
Or bake bread pure wheat on the main mode. As a rule, only ONE program does not fail at Panasonic. If the main bread is excellent, then 99.9 percent of the oven is in order.
It is very imprudent to draw conclusions on bread with rye flour in the composition. This is problematic bread. And your bread even exceeds 40 percent rye, which often guarantees success.

and when experimenting, it is better to practice in one mode. So it is more noticeable what exactly and how it affects.
in your report, you jumped between basic and rye .. complicating the interpretation of the result.

Nataliya,

I still looked, and you are interfering with the delicate white with the central locking system. This flour is precisely tender and weak, it can give nonsense for manual kneading and for strong HP. Panasonic copes with it, because the stove is quite gentle.
Actually, with this flour, you should get a tastier version on the French and diet regimes.

She does not like to be kneaded in the tail and in the mane, as on the main one.
And it does not give you volume, because its strong point is only in its delicate taste. This flour is also great for hand kneading.
You stuffed the active central locking system into this weak flour. Quite she could do you business.
What kind of regime was it?
Look, basically, this torment might not have survived because of the central lock. And do not let the fermentation with CH for a long time. Try the middle - diet regimen. And this, without his know-how: mix everything and let him sit until morning. Such toys are usually not rolled with a central locking system.

[Lena]

Lena, baked, yes, on Tender White. Basic mode (sort of), but with pre-mixing. From evening to morning left. The roof is beautiful, but not high.After all, 2 tablespoons of c. h. put it down.

I tasted everything, nothing tastes bitter. The serum is only acidic, but it smells normal.

And today I baked without pre-mixing, in the French mode, a recipe from the French bread instructions. On the water, on Tender White. And she was upset. The roof is beautiful, convex, but low at all. Below half of the bucket. Baked from 400 g of flour. ... You squeeze the pulp, it straightens back, but not airy. Delicate but plump. My husband doesn't like it, he wants air.




Maybe her, this Snow White? Buy MacFoo and calm down?

P.S. And yesterday I baked pizza. On flour for pizza pounds and on yeast for pizza saf-moment. In short, a bad day. Mixed on the pizza. Then I formed a pizza, waited for it to increase in size, waited for figs (it seems like it's warm at home). So I shoved it into the oven in the end. At first it seemed to rise, and then fell off a little. It was baked, but I didn't like the dough at all, it was kind of tough. Maybe you need to knead for pizza in the main mode?
Or did yeast play a bad role here? I never took one before. Something I have been upset lately, here it is wrong, sometimes there. But I now need something that would be excellent and not otherwise ...

Italian bread



Here is the direct dependence of the rise from the draft,
There is always a hump on one side when I leave the window ajar overnight. The stove is two meters away from him, and the hump on the opposite side has already begun to notice this.

[Thumbelina]

Thumbelina, and the photo where the sweets? What about the recipe?



Oh, everything has appeared)))) How tall !!! I envy white envy! Handsome is simple!

What about the recipe?

Just noticed the question.
Yeast 1 tsp
Flour 500gr
Salt 1 tsp
Sugar 1 tsp
Olive oil 3 tbsp
Water 310ml.
Program 6 - dietary

Program 6 - dietary

Why dietary, what does it give? And thanks for the recipe
And what is your flour and yeast?

Why dietary, what does it give? And thanks for the recipe
And what is your flour and yeast?

Flour Kuban premium with high protein content
Pakmaya yeast

I used to bake this bread from Stary Oskolskaya and it seemed to me that the bun was too thin, I would have reduced the amount of water, but this time I did not watch everything according to the recipe with a timer.

low-yeast mode?

The word Low-yeast infuriates me !!! Straight...
People! Well, there is no such name for the regime either on the case 2501, or in the book ...
Once again for those who are in the TANK ... Which Mode do you all call Low-Yeast ... And the main thing, WHY? (God, where is this smiley face to bang your head against the wall ??)

I have Diet, Single-grain ~ what do you think (I want to keep up with the team)))

[mamusi]

mamusi, Rita, at 2511 it says on the case. I'll take a picture later

Dasha, take 2511.
Low yeast is often used

... well ... again !!!!

[Rita]

Rita, low-yeast - an excellent mode, like everything in general with Panasik. I don't have it .... I'm getting out of it anyway, but I won't dissuade. I am also either 2512 or 2511

[$ vetLana]

$ vetLana, I have these:

Rita, at 2511 it says on the case. I'll take a picture later

Yeah, that's the difference (except for the yeast dispenser) between 2501 and 2511 ...



fffuntic, Lenaaaa, and ksk you imitate ... uh ... This Low-yeast at home?
Teach ...

and I have these

The word Low-yeast infuriates me !!! Straight...
People! Well, there is no such name for the regime either on the case 2501, or in the book ...
Once again for those who are in the TANK ... Which Mode do you all call Low-Yeast ... And the main thing, WHY? (God, where is this smiley face to bang your head against the wall ??)

so we're talking about 2511

[Dasha 001]

Dasha 001, Dasha, I understood perfectly ...


caprice23, So what? Everything is like mine. But I also have Rye.

Thumbelina, oh, I see it NOW !!!)))
That this is the official name of the Regime. (I thought that this is a "colloquial" purely Panaslnik name of some of the Regimes. And I tried to guess which one?
I don’t have and I don’t need it! Truncated. Thank you!

[mamusi]

mamusi, well, my second mode is the main one low-yeast!
You don't))

[Margarita]

Margarita, very tasty bread, yeast is actually half of the usual modes.
And everyone's favorite wholegrain mukv.

Definitely not! And ... nafig! I'll do it. I love my Panasichku !!!
And I often use Rye.
Well, your Low-yeast, what is he able to do so special?
What can't I do in French or Dietetic?

[Thumbelina]

Thumbelina, and you tried to bake on low-yeast with pre-mix and then with a delay for the night? What to immediately add yeast during pre-mixing?

Well, what about Low-Yeast WPS, what is so special about him?
What can't I do in French or Dietetic?

I'm interested too)

[Ritus,]

Ritus,
well, any imitation is not the original. There are two ways to use small amounts of yeast.
1. It is less to put them and stupidly lengthen the fermentation. This is our pre-mix with yeast. In fact, we can also call it "low-yeast", as we like, we lengthen the fermentation time with a reduction in the amount of yeast. And there is less yeast and the bread tastes better.
But since the pre-kneading dough sits at room temperature, and not heated, then our "low-yeast" should be much longer than the automatic in the machine.
That is, we can simulate a delicious low-yeast one just fine. Even more low-yeast than software if desired, but in any case it will take longer.

2. This will increase the fermentation temperature. Then a small amount of yeast begins to plow as hard as a large amount at a low temperature. Panasonic, as I understand it, went down this path. He lengthened the fermentation slightly and increased the temperature during fermentation.
This regime is stronger than the dietary one in terms of its effect on flour and is slightly hotter. But the increased activity of a small amount of yeast in warm conditions gives an advantage in time.

And how much tastier this bread is than on the main one - I would like to know myself. Girls... is the difference really strong?

Thumbelina, and you tried to bake on low-yeast with pre-mix and then with a delay for the night? What to immediately add yeast during pre-mixing?

No, I have not tried it, only according to the instructions
, completely satisfied

on low-yeast with pre-mixing tried to bake and then with a delay for the night? What to immediately add yeast during pre-mixing?

I baked. Pre-batch for 5 minutes. I close the bucket with a film and in the hall. I bake the next day.
=============
Add a photo

Well, what about Low-Yeast WPS, what is so special about him? What can't I do in French or Dietetic?

Well, the Frenchman is very special. And bread on Low-yeast, to my taste, is similar to bread on the Main, but some kind of more mature and aromatic due to prolonged fermentation. The program lasts 4 hours and 50 minutes.
No, well, you can do without it, but if it is - why not use it?

About yeast Saf-moment. I baked them for two years - everything was fine. And then the bad ones were caught, the bread did not rise.
I began to bake on Turkish Pakmaya. Always good at it. But lately, only Dr. Oetker (I liked it) and Saf-moment (these are normal ones), but since I already had problems with them, I will try not to buy them.

[Nataliya]

Nataliya,

wanted to tell you: you are limited by the possibilities of flour. Otherwise, panetone would be baked from any flour, but no - you need an Italian super-strong with protein from 11.
The richness rises with the moisture content of the flour. You can make the most fluffy kolobok, just like a comma and pick up yeast right on the edge. This will give the largest bread in terms of flour capacity. But only according to its capabilities. It is simply impossible to get rubber bread from tender white - gluten is too tender.
Therefore, try to knead at the limit of its moisture content with a maximum of yeast, if you do not like it, change the flour.
Or try enhancing with dry gluten or egg squirrel.

I can't say anything about pizza flour. You never know what the manufacturer has tricked.
In theory, it should be stronger than usual and should require a very long and strong batch. Pizza yeast should change its strength not in the direction of elasticity, but in the direction of elongation. There are some additives.

How these two specific ingredients will work together ..and figs knows.
It is necessary to ask the manufacturers what kind of flour they recommend for this type of yeast, and from the flour manufacturer whether it is necessary to use special yeast?
I can't tell you anything about flour and yeast that I didn't use. I only know that both ingredients have character

[Lena]

Lena, oh thank you so much for answering !! I just waited, waited, worried that my question was lost in a heap of recent messages
And how much yeast is at its maximum? For example, 400 g of flour.



A question about yeast. Dr. Oetker needs 2 times more than the saf moment or not? It's just that the bag says that the saf-moment is the whole bag for 1 kg of flour, and on Dr. Oetker - a bag for 500 g of flour. The number of them in bags is the same (if I'm not mistaken).

I baked. Pre-batch for 5 minutes. I close the bucket with a film and in the hall. I bake the next day.

that doesn't suit me. I would have a pre-batch in the evening before going to bed and then with a delay for the morning bread))

Well, personally, I somehow constantly get that the rate of yeast on sachets only rolls to me on baking, and on bread, at best, I take half, or even a third. But I haven't used dry ones for a hundred years, I'm sitting in a suite, so I find it difficult to advise anything. Better to let experienced girls answer, or our boys
In a suite, I would go for 8 g of a suite - for me, this is the highest limit of yeast in bread for 400 g. Usually I don't go above 5 g in a suite.

[Lena]

Lena, I understand correctly, if I do a pre-batch, and then a postponement for the morning, can I put less yeast than if I started the program right away? (This is not my white flour, but I'm generally interested)



and on live yeast, too, with pre-mixing is possible? It is simply most convenient for me to bake with pre-mixing in the morning. During the day at work, I don't have time in the evening. And then it seems that the bun has tracked down and the bread is ready at the right time. For breakfast, lukewarm crispy))

A conversation about choosing a model of a Panasonic bread machine, moved to the topic

Panasonic: I want to join the ranks, but I doubt it ... # 1052

[Lena]

Lena, I understand correctly, if I do a pre-batch, and then a postponement for the morning, can I put less yeast than if I started the program right away? (This is not my white flour, but I'm generally interested)



and on live yeast, too, with pre-mixing is possible? It is simply most convenient for me to bake with pre-mixing in the morning. During the day at work, I don't have time in the evening. And then it seems that the bun has tracked down and the bread is ready at the right time. For breakfast, lukewarm crispy))

The more yeast, the more intensely they eat and the more gas they release, which loosens the gluten. The higher the temperature, the more intense this process takes place.
This means that the gluten is stretched by the gas and can tear without heaving. If, nevertheless, the rise is such that it is on the verge of possible without rupture, then all the same we are already dealing with an elongated thin elastic band, the thinner, the longer the fermentation was with the accumulation of gas. Therefore, when the machine begins to intensively interfere - twist - stretch the already refined rubber of the gluten, it can tear it if this gluten becomes too delicate in weak flour during fermentation.

Therefore, during long standing, it is necessary to protect gluten. That is, keep the dough while standing in colder conditions so that the added yeast does not breathe, forcing gas, but simply dozes quietly, waiting for the main batch in a warm place. Then you can put the usual amount - they will still work on the main program when heated.
If the dough is sitting on the pre-mixing at warm room temperature when the yeast is already come to life and intensely work and breathe, then their number must be reduced. So as not to stretch the gluten too much, weakening its resistance to subsequent mechanical stress, or even simply tore it.
Here it is also necessary to take into account that they eat sugar-glucose more intensively, impoverishing flour. With long standing, the sugar must be increased, otherwise at the last stage the bread will be much poorer in taste. There is not enough food for yeast and bacteria, and the bread may become bland.

2. You can track the kolobok.
If you track something correctly. There is a very subtle point here.I have already written more than once that domestic flour is only capable of swelling normally over time and forming a maximum of gluten. Therefore, a soft kolobok at the initial moment of mixing does not often mean optimal mixing.
After standing, it can become quite dense.
As a rule, a slurry should be made during preliminary mixing, and then it becomes a normal kolobok.
The automatic program has little swelling time and therefore a tighter mixing will lead to success.
But with preliminary standing, it makes sense to try to knead more moist than usual, taking into account further swelling and compaction before the main batch.

[Lena]

Lena, thanks!!! I don’t know what I would do without your explanations !!!

by yeast

It is absolutely unimportant whether dry or live yeast is long-lasting - that is, capable of producing gas for long hours. Live yeast is usually all long-lasting and quick-living. You can stick them anywhere.
As well as dry. Pounded with flour and stuffed into bread.
The revitalization of the yeast in the chatterbox activates them more, but this is needed more for baking or for baking here and now with a reduced amount of yeast. In xp, they work great without dancing with tambourines for preliminary revival.
Dry are different. High-speed - plow the first few hours, and then calm down. These are not used for dough and pre-mixing. Saf-moment instant strong. Akin to the living - they are pushed everywhere.

Natasha, come on with me. I even indicated this in my profile

Natasha, come on with me. I even indicated this in my profile

Okay, I'll be on YOU.

why is it easier to work with live yeast

I threw dry ones not because they are worse than living ones. Just visually with living things, as a rule, everything is visible in terms of their survivability. Elastic, pleasant smell .. 99 percent will not be a surprise. And fuss - rubbed with flour and truncated. At the same time, they will even squeeze cold ones out of the refrigerator if they immediately get into the heat. They are tenacious.

And dry? these are incomprehensibly deteriorated or not. They must be stored without access to oxygen, packing well each time. If a large package is purchased, then it is necessary to repack it in small sealed bag jars. If they are cold, then they do not like it right away in the heat, it is necessary to temper in flour.
They do not like cold water for yeast. Some will die at once.
If baking, then you need to take yeast for baking, otherwise it will not be squeezed in a sugar medium.

If you revive the dry ones correctly, then there should be no difference with the live ones. But figs to me all these difficulties, if I took out the living and shoved it. And you can buy a little bit. I wrapped it tightly in foil and life went well. A luxury is sold already in such a normal package. The beauty.

[Varvarka]

What will they say? According to the instructions, in this mode you need to bake from 500 grams of flour, and you have only 400, because of this, there may be overheating. Although, if you have extra time, strength and nerves, you can drive to the service with a stove. Is the bread maker new? Perhaps at first her shades were not yet developed and warmed less. Now developed and overheated, because flour is not enough for this regime. Check the standard recipe for this program.

Recipe from the instruction:
sugar adds nimbleness to the yeast, which gives ripening ahead of the program, hence the excessive porosity and the collapsed roof.

Thalia, I just began to bake at 400 grams (so as not to transfer food) when the bread was no longer produced. Prior to this, the baked increased proportionally to 600 gr. serving. Maybe the truth is in the shadows, and I need to re-adjust the dosage. The bread maker was new, yes. And I don't have this standard recipe in the instructions. Today I will try to bake it. So no more sugar. All that I have is already a mess in my head. And at first everything was so good.

I can smell that Varvarki is overturning the dough ...
Natasha is right when she says, Overheating can take place ...
I just don’t understand why you don’t bake the same loaf with 1 spoonful of yeast on the Main. And all on Rye, but on Rye ...
I advised in the afternoon ... on the Main ...

Margarita, please do not be offended, I really appreciate your advice. I baked it on the Main and posted the photo, I just missed that the yeast had to be reduced. Compared with a standard recipe. I will now prescribe as Talia said, and then as you advised.

Varvarkaif the cut and taste are good then everything is OK.

Svetlana, no, not good in the context. The top layer is crumbly and slightly sticky.

Varvarka,
I'm not a specialist in mixed breads. So just about the process.

The fluffiness of the bread, the degree of its rise, depends solely on the gluten (wheat gluten) in the wheat flour. It is he who, as in ordinary wheat bread, should wander, stretch out into a 3D frame, on which, like meat, it will hang with clay
rye flour - which does not have the ability to rise at all. No gluten there, it's mess.
BUT
it active clay with substances that love to dirty wheat flour, destroying its gluten.
The degree of filthiness, that is, the strength of the active destruction of wheat gluten, depends on the characteristics of the purchased rye flour, that is, on the season, processing of rye.
Itself harmful in this sense wallpaper Rye flour.
Therefore, if the mixed bread does not turn out to be high, it means that wheat gluten does not have enough strength to raise the bread.
Bread with a proportion of 50x50 is borderline bread.
If the proportion 60x40 wheat / rye usually rolls successfully without additional dances, then
50x50 already ... a full line to get fluffiness. May require additional effort.

In such a situation, I would advise you to strengthen the wheat flour with the addition of dry gluten (or even panifirin is gluten with additives), or to use a stronger wheat flour, or to increase the proportion of wheat flour in the direction of its increase.
You can increase the resistance of wheat by reducing the harmful activity of rye by adding acids, such as kefir, beer ..

So that the strength of gluten is enough to resist the destructive effects of the rye additive.

It worked on the topic before, but now it does not - it should be remembered that flour is a living organism. This is from the same series that milk and butter were different before. Yes .. that's right, the quality, activity, strength of flour depends on season to season, from batch to batch. There is practically nothing permanent in this life.
One should not hope for a permanent effect, but look for the cause and eliminate it.

As for salt, sugar.
Salt is very noticeable in bread. Adding salt has a positive effect on gluten and strengthens it. Excessive salt does not like yeast, it inhibits their work.
Therefore, the reduction in salt could not have a particular positive effect. There is not enough of it for the yeast to react, but gluten without salt is bad.
Sugar loves to eat yeast.
If the increase in sugar has a positive effect, this means that you made the yeast happy and it began to work more actively, that is, to loosen the bread.
But you have the same amount of sugar, and less yeast.

In terms of the chemical effect of sugar? well, nothing can be ruled out for sure, but it has to be a VERY chemical sugar to spoil the bread in such a small dosage.

What have you observed?
You switched to main mode for the first time and got a badly sunken roof. Correctly concluded: fermented. But in vain they blamed the whole yeast.
They worked fine, but wheat gluten doesn't hold gas, so he sat down.

You continued on the rye setting (less kneading and one kneading) with less yeast and less salt.
You still have the same weakness in gluten, the help from salt has decreased, but the rise has slightly improved.
Well, of course, the weak gluten was twisted less and stretched less, and it withstood a little better.
But with a decrease in yeast, our loosening is weaker.
Takeaway: you need to fortify wheat gluten or reduce the destructive effects of rye flour, not just reduce yeast. Otherwise, with the same success, you can refuse them altogether - then no one will stretch anything at all, and therefore will not fall

Which mode should you choose?
rye or plain.
Rye takes into account the peculiarities of the fact that rye flour greatly weakens gluten and that rye flour does not need any kneading at all. This mode is not for fluffy breads, but for those where clay rye flour predominates, and wheat flour does not ferment properly and does not raise the bread high. Where it is nailed and if you deceive it, then only one single time.

This recipe is 50:50. This implies the ability of the wheat to open up to the maximum. That is, both fermentation and kneading are required. For such a composition, it is better to choose the main mode, well strengthening wheat, if the rye is too active. In this mode, the effect on flour is strong, so it must be strengthened very well.

You can stay on the rye, a little less but also strengthening the gluten. But lifting and, most importantly, do not expect taste as the main one. An underexamined wheat component will give a simplified bread flavor.
Therefore .. strengthen (at choice: increase the amount, change to a stronger one, add dry gluten) wheat, give a slightly acidic medium or reduce a little rye flour - whichever you prefer.
If you want to extract the maximum taste and volume from the composition: choose the main mode, but wheat need bring to mind.
The minimum is to return to rye, then you can simply reduce the amount of rye flour to a digestible one.

Varvarka, you specified
the inside is almost always poorly baked.
this is a very important symptom. The damp crumb is a direct consequence of the destructive effects of rye flour. In your tandem wheat-rye, rye strongly kills wheat. And which of them is so bad: either the wheat is too weak, or the rye is too active - this cannot be said for sure.
In practice, it is necessary to shift the proportion and follow the effect. Well, I have already written a treatise above.



And of course you can go around the services, if not laziness. Well, if you’re lazy, then maybe it’s better to start by testing the service manual?
Or bake bread pure wheat on the main mode. As a rule, only ONE program does not fail at Panasonic. If the main bread is excellent, then 99.9 percent of the oven is in order.
It is very imprudent to draw conclusions on bread with rye flour in the composition. This is problematic bread. And your bread even exceeds 40 percent rye, which often guarantees success.

and when experimenting, it is better to practice in one mode. So it is more noticeable what exactly and how it affects.
in your report, you jumped between basic and rye .. complicating the interpretation of the result.

Nataliya,

I still looked, and you are interfering with the delicate white with the central locking system. This flour is precisely tender and weak, it can give nonsense for manual kneading and for strong HP. Panasonic copes with it, because the stove is quite gentle.
Actually, with this flour, you should get a tastier version on the French and diet regimes.

She does not like to be kneaded in the tail and in the mane, as on the main one.
And it does not give you volume, because its strong point is only in its delicate taste. This flour is also great for hand kneading.
You stuffed the active central locking system into this weak flour. Quite she could do you business.
What kind of regime was it?
Look, basically, this torment might not have survived because of the central lock. And do not let the fermentation with CH for a long time. Try the middle - diet regimen. And this, without his know-how: mix everything and let him sit until morning. Such toys are usually not rolled with a central locking system.

Lena, I'm shocked !!! This is really a treatise. I am very uncomfortable that you have done such a job. Thank you very much! I will study it, I will not immediately sort everything out on the shelves in my head. I'll try a recipe with a reduced amount of rye flour. I'll try Darnitsky from Fugasca. I baked it and it turned out !!!

I'm going to put rye with carrot cake on the night shift.
It remains to pour in some water and program the timer

[Varvarka]

Varvarka,

well, do not rest on "I baked and it worked." One has only to buy flour of another activity and the picture may change immediately. Rye flour greatly weakens wheat flour if there is a lot of it.Then sharply reduce to at least 40 percent and see the result.
Look, if only 20 percent of sour cream has become in the store, and before 30 was sold, then it is useless to look for and complain about the past in 20 percent 30. So it is with flour. The situation with the properties of your flour has changed. Has changed.

I carefully read what the girls advised. They saw everything correctly, except for one factor: your bread ceased to be wheat-rye, it went into the theory of rye dough. I did not want to overwhelm you with the theory of rye dough, which is full on the forum.
50x50 is a borderline proportion, your bread has shifted to the rye side and it is necessary to apply diagnostics for rye breads.
Basic mode with yeast reduction will not save you. The weak gluten of strong kneading will not withstand even with a decrease in gas from the yeast. You need to apply more drastic measures.



Scientifically speaking, you have rye flour with high α-amylase activity, which must be suppressed.
If you want to understand and study, then it is popularly and clearly described in a number of articles.

🔗*** gi **** str **** r / rzhanoi-khleb-azbuka-domashnego-pekarya-chast-ii-osobennosti-rzhanogo-testa

remove the asterisks - otherwise I cannot insert the link for some reason. It is necessary to dilute with asterisks.
and there you should look through the entire ABC of a home baker on rye flour and there will be no questions left.

This is what I took out of the stove in the morning. Yesterday there was not enough peeled rye flour and I added 60 grams of whole grain rye and in total, according to the recipe, it was 350g and 250 grams of wheat.





Flash flashes

Oh, what a handsome man !!! I just want a piece!

There is no trace of carrots

And the taste of the carrot is felt?

And the taste of the carrot is felt

Nope

[Thumbelina]

Thumbelina, do not cry the main thing is that it is there and there will be some health benefits from it too

[Anyutok]

Anyutok,
Carrot cake is not the most fragrant ingredient!

All right, heavy artillery was used
In the morning I put wheat-rye bread with a beautiful roof from Brad pita.
Bought MacFoo, found Lux ​​live yeast. Liquid - fresh whey plus potato broth.
Let's see what happens in the morning.
For 350 g of flour, I took about 6 g of yeast. I think a lot, but someone recounted the commentary on the recipe and took 10 grams of live shivers for 600 g of flour. I also reduced it proportionally.

Well, here he is, my handsome !!!


What a fluffy one!

Probably everything played a role, and the change of flour and live yeast! Today I am happy! It rose even higher from 350 g of flour than pure wheat on Belonezhnaya from 400 g.