Dishwasher selection (2)

Oh, yes, it can be. We have a local sour milk in some unpredictable banks - you buy it two at a time, but it will be washed in different ways.

You have calmed me down with saucepans.
I decided that the machine does not wash my protein rim from the soup, because it is a small tabletop machine. And after a super hot program, peeling off this bezel is even harder than before.
Now I first rub the rim, and then wash it in the rmm.

[Marfusha81]

Marfusha81, hmmm but after all, after the PMM, the rim is washed worse. I somehow did not focus on this. And after your words, yes, it is more difficult to wash.
Oh, girls, I'll tell you a terrible thing. I have never looked at the filter at all. And even now I'm not at home, I can't look. I wonder what is there?

[iris. ka]

iris. ka,

There are Strangers!)))

You have calmed me down with saucepans.
I decided that the machine does not wash my protein rim from the soup, because it is a small tabletop machine. And after a super hot program, peeling off this bezel is even harder than before.

IMHO a typical mistake in choosing the washing mode. In modern means for PMM, especially in those without phosphates / phosphonates, enzymes are responsible for washing out protein deposits, which are the rims on the inner surface of pots. These enzymes are effective when washing at temperatures no higher than 50C, if higher, they do not work, from the word "in general". Therefore, I wash such pans either on the "ECO (50)" or "Auto (45-65)" mode, if the loaded dishes are not too greasy, and the PMM in this case selects a temperature of about 45-50C. There are no problems with rims in pots, as well as with coffee or tea rims in cups, that is, they are not ...

[Kapet]

Kapet, Yes??? Is it really that simple to solve the problem? Bliiin. If so, then I will pray for you.

iris. ka,

There are Strangers!)))

and here is the netushka. She came and looked. No one is there. Yes, and there is no fat, garbage and any byaki either. Well, some whitish flakes that I immediately wiped off with a sponge. Then she started with a lemon. To clean the insides at least once in a five-year period.

Kapet, huh ??? Is it really that simple to solve the problem? Bliiin. If so, then I will pray for you.

Just make an allowance for the fact that the enzymes in, say, German Frosch or Japanese Lion, their foreign production and quality control, may be slightly different in quantity and quality than those of Henkel (Somat) or Eco-lab Inc (Finish) local products. spill ...

Just make an allowance for the fact that the enzymes in, say, German Frosch or Japanese Lion may be slightly different from those in the products of Henkel or Eco-lab Inc (Finish) local bottling ...

For many years I have used Belgian Yplon powder in 3kg packs for the dishwasher, everything was great. But then I somehow bought it, the packaging seems to be the same, but it washes disgustingly, after washing on the dishes and the machine, a plaque appeared that cannot be peeled off, for the first time in many years, some kind of mucus appeared on the filter, and a stock from the car ... The packaging is outwardly correct, but inside the powder is slightly different - it looks like a washing machine, maybe the production has moved or a fake was slipped. I won't dare to buy now, but before there was an excellent inexpensive powder.
I saw an action on tablets for dishwashers TOPPERR (made in Germany) at Ozone, took a try, liked it very much. The dishes and the machine are clean, there is no smell, it washes everything very well. While I'm happy, I hope they don't spoil it.

made in Germany

Imported you just need to take it less and less

Yplon in 3kg packs, everything was great

It was a very nice powder. And not just powder. Salt and rinse aid.
Now I have not seen for a long time.

TOPPERR (made in Germany)

Yes, yes, not bad

[Scarecrow]

Scarecrow, Nata, question
If your PMM is connected to hot water, then there are probably 2 connections - to both cold and hot?
This is probably not possible in all models?
What is yours? And what temperature does she normally perceive? You probably have hot water through the boiler / heater, you can regulate the temperature, but you cannot get a stable temperature from the central water supply, it is always different.
I’m thinking how much it is nat / nat
Girls who still have a hot connection, especially from the central one, share, pzhlsta, opinion.

[Olga]

Olga, I'm not Nata, but my cars have hot water connections.
The central water supply is normal. And here, in the tree, I have a bummer. The water in the line will cool down, far away. Pull about 13 meters. I discussed it with Nata. At home, in Moscow, there was a washing machine connected to hot water. It was normal.
By the way, there was GE, she is without a heating element. Hot and cold water connection only.
It was sad in the summer when the hot water was turned off

Just make an allowance for the fact that the enzymes in, say, German Frosch or Japanese Lion, their foreign production and quality control, may be slightly different in quantity and quality than those of Henkel (Somat) or Eco-lab Inc (Finish) local products. spill ...

Uh ... and what follows from this? Need to pour more?

You probably used something without phosphate, or how and what?

Yes, phosphate-free, eco-friendly Froggy tablets. And, probably, the eco-program is also to blame. Previously, only this program was used. I don't know what the temperature is, thinking low, since it can't cope with fat. The dishes were clean, but the filter was in a layer of grease after each wash and had to be cleaned every time.
After pre-rinsing the dishes under the tap, the filter is now always clean. And about the consumption and inefficiency of water due to rinsing under the tap, I will say that when I do not rinse the dishes in the automatic program, the machine takes 15-20 liters of water, and with rinsing 9-11 liters. When I rinse the dishes under the tap, I don't pour a lot of water: I turned on the water, quickly rinsed it and immediately turned it off. And so for each plate, turn the water on and off. And I didn't notice the difference in water bills when I rinsed the dishes or didn't rinse them.

[Marfusha81]

Marfusha81, and what brand do you have a tabletop dishwasher?

[SOMETIMES]

Yes, phosphate-free

I understand that they do not remove fat. I understood from the labels on the packages, from the reviews ... It is better to use phosphate-free tablets, PMM products for delicate dishes - so wash away dust, tea plaque or almost non-greasy plates, non-greasy plastic, silicone ...

After pre-rinsing the dishes under the tap, the filter is now always clean.

Of course. Plus, the PMM also has a corrugation - it also clogs up from fat, and from grains, and from the fact that on programs with low temperatures the water is not hot and cannot clean the corrugated drain hose.

No, no, this is not in your garden

Well, thanks for that too) I consider myself a master of dishwashing) I've been washing it since the times of the USSR, I know (knew) a lot of useful secrets since those times. I didn’t save money on dishwashing detergents, sponges, brushes, brushes, washcloths of various types, etc. and clean towels. I think it also depends on the water, on its quality. After all, water comes from the tap and always came out hardish, without rinses, without salt - like in PMM. How you don't wash the dishes with your hands, how you don't rinse them - it's useless SOMETIMES it happens! It is foolish to argue with the fact that a machine will make it cleaner and better, and faster (!) Than a human. Any quality car! I washed my hands with soap and rubbed each edge of the plate in a circle, rinsed it for more than a minute, even. It was not sticky, of course, but ... Everything, everything, every spoon-fork for a few minutes, every rivet on the saucepan - literally took 3 hours (10 plates, 10 cutlery, stainless steel.saucepan, frying pan, ladle with Fairy products, Sorts + soap or without soap! And vinegar and lemon - everything is always at hand)! And PMM washes during the same time a much larger volume of dishes and with better quality - and because of the water purification in it, including. I have a lot of long-term dishes - like new. But there are things that either because of the water, or because of what - periodically need to be washed only in the PMM, which was "like in a restaurant", and not like on a collective farm. Moreover, I now generally disdain to eat with those people who wash dishes by hand. These are incomparable things! If we also take into account that many ladies save on money and on rinsing with water and on their own time, and therefore washing dishes by hand is unhygienic and of poor quality - no matter how high the hostess thinks about herself personally. My opinion is different. And I'm not going to change it. Even if such a hostess boils stainless steel cutlery in front of me, as I sometimes did before, and even with lemon or vinegar solution or soak it)

Quote: Gingi from Yesterday at 15:51
TOPPERR (made in Germany)
Yes, yes, not bad

I read the reviews, but they are different. Like every remedy, I guess. How many people - so many opinions. We should probably buy and try everything ourselves. German production captivates. Finish also has a Polish production and a local one ... I saw on the Internet also Five Plus tablets, inexpensive. For 10 rubles a tablet is obtained. I don't know whose production, can you tell me - how are they?

Of course. Plus, the PMM also has a corrugation - it also clogs up from fat, and from grains, and from the fact that on programs with low temperatures the water is not hot and cannot clean the corrugated drain hose.

No, it does not clog, moreover, the garbage can with a normal agent cleans the entire canal

[normal means]

garbage can with normal means cleans the whole canal

Exactly. Both the agent is important and the temperature of the (hot) water. And so that there are no 7 pieces of buckwheat / noodles / rice, etc., including bread crumbs on each of the 14 plates (I will remain unconvinced).
Still, PMM is dishwasher, but not food waste dump

Now I will say sedition, everyone is fighting so hard for these newfangled phosphate-free, as if we live on different planets with China and India, but in these countries there are no water purification systems at all, everything merges in the Yellow River

On November 25, 2008, a report on the Yellow River was published, claiming that severe pollution made one-third of the river unusable even for agricultural or industrial use. This pollution occurred due to the discharge of waste from factories and factories into the river and an increase in wastewater from rapidly growing cities.

and Ganges

The Indian government has long been trying to tackle the problem of river pollution. The Ganga Action Plan, which began with great fanfare in 1985, called for a wastewater treatment plant by the year 2000 that could process the 2.7 billion liters / day required at the time. At the end of the program, capacities had been built that could process only about 1.0 billion liters / day, despite a significant increase in emissions. Given the growing population, the river clean-up plan has failed completely

and the main problem of the world's oceans is microplastic

Now I will say sedition, everyone is fighting so hard for these newfangled phosphate-free, as if we live on different planets with China and India, but in these countries there are no water purification systems at all, everything merges in the Yellow River

And this is what you need, please explain it clearly) And so, in general, if about rivers and dirty water in them - then the Volga and not only it - dirty and all the reservoirs. We now have such cold chlorinated water, you turn on the tap - the smell of bleach per meter is felt, as if I sprinkled the half of the kitchen with bleach! And then the smell of bleach, then some smelly smell, like literally from the toilet - they alternate with each other. Moreover, smelly - also such a loud smell, as if someone put it in the pants nearby, sorry.It all started after the recent story with the Ulyanovsk cadets, who found terrible parasites, and the source of infection is still looking, yeah, searched.

From the PMM, too, began to smell like bleach, by the way, especially at the stage of preliminary rinsing, even then. Not a fragrant agent, as is usually the case - but bleach! Looks like something really happened to the rivers, they completely dirtied them!

I read that due to the fact that there are no cold winters, so all these bacteria, all the muck, including animal feces, flows into the Volga and other rivers. And therefore, you cannot even swim in this water in summer.

And how is this related to phosphate-free everything (dirty water in the rivers of India and other countries, including ours)? I don't prefer them, by the way.

[Sveta]

Finish has it too

Sveta, That's honestly, in almost every post you post Finish.
Well, I never liked him, and not only me. Maybe it was, first of all, when it was not of our production. Something is wrong in him.

Are you campaigning for PMM in this thread? Even I don't understand

And this is what you need, please explain it clearly)

And besides, your newfangled gadgets are useless. If you put yourself a steep septic tank, and your neighbor is a house with a hole, then, no matter how much you beat, the byaka from the neighbor will fall into the ground, from there into the water, then into the fish ... and so on.

And this is what you need, please explain it clearly)

This is me about "environmental pollution"

[Polish!]

That's honestly, in almost every message you post Finish.

Maybe because it suits me and, most importantly, I only use it, because I haven't found anything better in terms of price and quality, but would I be glad? Answer me about Five Plus, please, if you have anything to answer. I read reviews about Topferrer - no one likes it at all. Do you like it. So what? I (Topferer) will definitely try them at the action if I see them. And I don’t care that they don’t like or like them.

Why should I be afraid to write messages here because of you? For me personally, this forum once helped a lot in my choice. Maybe my messages will help someone too.

I also tried Brileo Paclan powder, but Fsh seemed to me better. I tried Somat tablets, Fairy and Finish. I didn't like the somat. Fairy is delighted. But I rarely use tablets, for a special "fatty case". Although the finishing powder washes all the fat well, I pour in 25 g. And this way you can pour 5 and 10 g. And the reviews about him are better and there are more good reviews. I would not believe them, but I know myself. But this fact is also not a reason for someone to run after this brand - I still like it (I just haven't tried the best, alas!), But this does not mean that someone will also like it.
You need to look for this brand at least Polish!

Are you campaigning for PMM in this thread? Even I don't understand

What is the name of the topic? It is not only at the choice of a particular PMM model, but in general at the choice - to buy PMM or not. Why don't I share my opinion and impression of the PMM in this thread, there are many such messages! What are your complaints against me, I don’t understand something? Write to the point, please.

[Scarecrow]

Scarecrow, Nata, question
If your PMM is connected to hot water, then there are probably 2 connections - to both cold and hot?
This is probably not possible in all models?
What is yours? And what temperature does she normally perceive? You probably have hot water through the boiler / heater, you can regulate the temperature, but you cannot get a stable temperature from the central water supply, it is always different.
I’m thinking how much it is nat / nat
Girls who still have a hot connection, especially from the central one, share, pzhlsta, opinion.

Yes, the car has 2 connections: hot and cold at the same time. This is possible not in all, but in which it is provided constructively. This is indicated in the instructions. The instructions indicate what temperature the water can be connected to.
I have Electrolux and can connect up to 60 degrees. For hot water, the boiler is set at 50. As far as I understand, it kneads the water itself, measuring the temperature (adds hot to cold or vice versa.Washers work the same way.

[Marfusha81]

Marfusha81, and what brand do you have a tabletop dishwasher?

Electrolux. Very old model.
By the way, I had the whole filter in fat after some super cheap pills from Ryady (a store in St. Petersburg).

I consider myself a dishwashing master

You can compare washed dishes with your hands and in PMM: they are all shiny, but washed with your hands - they are stained like plates around the edges, white and not white all the more.

No, I’m definitely not a dishwasher - I don’t know exactly where the dishes were washed. The saucepans - yes, I can tell the saucepans, I wash them cleaner with my hands.

I consider myself a master of washing dishes) I've been mine since the times of the USSR

No, well, we are here too ... We were also pioneers))

What are your claims to me

No

I can distinguish the saucepans; I wash them cleaner with my hands.

I only wash the rims from the soup there. It is possible to place a saucepan of even 5 liters in the PMM so that even the bottom shines, as it was just bought. The bottom is not mine with my hands) And all these cracks on the stainless steel between the bottom and the wall and rivets are perfectly washed, everything shines, shines. I can do it with my hands too, but when I have PMM - why? And she's better, faster, DRYER will do it.

[Ludmila]

After pre-rinsing the dishes under the tap,

Ludmila in Spain for some reason everyone always rinses the dishes .. I can't understand with my mind in any way! Well, there and your water is completely different .. just one calcium. Where are you from, if not a secret?
Sveta, and you can explain what touched you so much and in general ... I read your messages twice and I just can't understand what's what !?
Sasha correctly wrote that nothing does not affect on the corrugation of your non-rinsing .. You read it somehow strange, through a word or something ...
I don't really understand without offense what the topic has become now? Here Olya I understand .. she asks about hot water in the car.

what is the topic now?

I understand so - about rinsing dishes after eating before loading them into the PMM - should it be done or not and why, how? What and how affects (including the ability to connect the PMM to hot water) on the cleanliness of the dishes and PMM, the performance of the PMM. What is PMM for, in general) We choose both PMM and ways of using it (from programs, functions to detergents))

Yes, phosphate-free, eco-friendly Froggy tablets. And, probably, the eco-program is also to blame. Previously, only this program was used. I don't know what the temperature is, thinking low, since it can't cope with fat. The dishes were clean, but the filter was in a layer of grease after each wash and had to be cleaned every time.

What are Eco Pills? Now in the EU all means are "eco", that is, phosphate-free and phosphonate-free. They cope well with fats and other things. And the filter can be greasy, but why wash it every time? As Ostap Bender said: "Shura, don't make a cult out of food!" As long as the PMM does not highlight the error of draining the water, there is no need to climb into it, the machine itself will cope with such pollution. Well, you can once a year arrange for her prophylaxis with a special means, you can pull it out once a year / in six months to look at the filter, clean it of wool, hair, bones, and other non-food nasty things. But after every wash? - This, IMHO, is too much. Here it is worth thinking about changing the PMM model, or about another detergent ...

Well, you can once a year arrange for her prophylaxis with a special means, you can pull it out once a year / in six months to look at the filter, clean it of wool, hair, bones, and other non-food nasty things. But after every wash? - This, IMHO, is already too much.

Previously, without rinsing the dishes, I cleaned the filter every time or every other time. Because at the end of the program you can see the water and electricity meter. It shows how much water and electricity was consumed for the entire washing cycle. I noticed that when the filter is clean, water is consumed almost 2 times less than with a dirty filter (9-12 liters and when dirty from 13 to 20 liters, and this is on the same program, not automatic).For example, in the eco-program, the standard consumption is always 9 liters, but with a dirty filter it is already 13 liters.

And I didn't like the finish powder, I don't remember whose production, I'll take a look. I bought it because of the dispenser, but I didn't guess right here either. the action was for a large bottle, it turned out to be inconvenient for her to use, a serious infection.
I used pills, nothing like that, but it's hard to cut, so the powder is easier for me. Now I bought a somat for a promotion, our bottling, but it washes better than the finish.

but it washes better than the finish

Yes!

And it just smells like powder. And Finish smells to me as something rotten.

Now in the EU all means are "eco", that is, phosphate-free and phosphonate-free.

Not true. Finish, Somat, Fairy and the like with phosphates and in Europe. I read the composition. In Europe, all detergents are phosphate-free, but for some reason the PMM products contain phosphates!

[just because]

somat for the action, our bottling, but washes better than the finish.

but it washes better than the finish

Somat powder? Have not tried. Thanks, I will definitely try! And Finish I take 1 liter bottle, according to the action of 200 rubles, 210 is the last time I saw it. But now, for some reason, I have stainless steel spoons. are not washed. Although these spoons generally lie soaked for a long time in the sink ... I don't know yet what the reason is. Maybe in powder Finish. Or maybe it's in the program (for 55 minutes), or maybe you need to pour more - I don't know) I take it just becausethat it is budgetary, more or less and does a good job, it is enough for a long time.

Not true. Finish, Somat, Fairy and the like with phosphates in Europe. I read the composition.

I think so too. Because phosphates, etc. are needed for something, without them something won't wash off) or are these brands simply outdated? In general, the main thing for me is that the detergents for PMM are chlorine-free - chlorine corrodes rubber, harms all parts of the PMM in general. And in general, I need to wash off the fat. and without phosphates, it will not be washed off. Or do enzymes also wash fat? In general, I do not know such brands of powder tablets.

Previously, without rinsing the dishes, I cleaned the filter every time or every other time. Because at the end of the program you can see the water and electricity meter. It shows how much water and electricity was consumed for the entire washing cycle. I noticed that when the filter is clean, water is consumed almost 2 times less than with a dirty filter

Coolest how! This is what civilization means !!!

I noticed that when the filter is clean, water is consumed almost 2 times less than with a dirty filter (9-12 liters and when dirty from 13 to 20 liters and this is on the same program, not automatic). For example, in the eco-program, the standard flow rate is always 9 liters, but with a dirty filter it is already 13 liters.
+1

Can you somehow explain how the degree of contamination of the drain filters can affect the amount of water consumed during washing? I hardly imagine something to myself, there is not enough imagination ...
In automatic mode, the degree of soiling of the dishes can influence the water consumption, perhaps the water hardness is still taken into account. But drain filters ??? how

[A dirty filter prevents the water from being clean]

Can you somehow explain how the degree of contamination of the drain filters can affect the amount of water consumed during washing? I hardly imagine something to myself, there is not enough imagination ...

You will not understand))) And what, are you going to argue with an electronic machine ?!

Excuse me, what's not clear here? When the filter is clogged, it passes water worse))) The water is dirty in the PMM, it goes back and forth, you have to pour more water into the SMART machine so that it is clean! A dirty filter prevents the water from being clean, and this, in turn, interferes with the quality of dishwashing!

You won't understand)))

But where can we, the dark ones ... It's useless to argue with electronics if it has brains in place, and they receive the correct data from their senses, that is, sensors.

Perhaps you just have a local problem - a malfunction of the water level sensors. This happens, and leads to excessive consumption of water.Either the fine mesh has received mechanical damage ... Or the plastic filter housing is breathing on its own ... Or you just simply save on detergent in elementary fashion ... We have no such horrors at home with horribly greasy filters and excessive water consumption ...

Yes, there is:
It is recommended to clean the drain at least 2 times a month, otherwise the parts will become clogged with grease and debris. As a result, the quality of the wash decreases, the machine stops working. A source: 🔗

But not after every "wash" ...!

However, everyone is his own master-master, and does what he wants ...

[Svetlana7]

Perhaps you just have a local problem - a malfunction of the water level sensors. This happens, and leads to excessive consumption of water.

Well no. It's okay with the sensors. And the new car did the same. I don’t save on detergents, I always put a whole tablet. As I wrote above Svetlana7, due to a dirty filter, the machine thinks that more water is needed to wash and rinse dishes. Many simply do not have any sensors or they do not look at them, so they do not know how much water is consumed.

It is recommended to clean the drain at least 2 times a month

Many do not do this, including for the reason that the filter is clean every time.

But not after every "wash" ...!

In the instructions to the PMM, they write that it is necessary every time) After all, many, without rinsing the dishes in the sink, put them immediately from the table in the PMM.

Many simply do not have any sensors or they do not look at them, so they do not know how much water is consumed.

I do not have. That's why I'm delighted that this happens at all)

In the instructions to the PMM, they write that it is necessary every time) After all, many, without rinsing the dishes in the sink, put them immediately from the table in the PMM.

The drainage filter device includes: two coarse-mesh coarse mesh - it is they that retain large debris; one fine mesh of fine cleaning. A source: 🔗

Even if from the table in the PMM, then it's also okay, although we usually don't do that. Coarse fractions of food will be eliminated by the coarse filter, on which after washing all large "residues" will be clearly and clearly visible, which it is naturally desirable to remove before the next wash. This is no question. And fat and other small crap accumulates in a fine filter, on a plastic case and a mesh. They write about this filter that it is necessary to check its condition, preferably at least 2 times a month, but in reality - depending on the intensity of PMM operation.

We once had that the PMM gave an error to drain water. It turned out that a chicken bone got into the very bottom of the drain through a fine filter (through its open neck), which partially blocked the drain. But even there there is a very coarse mechanical filter for fools, especially for such cases, so that the drain hose does not clog.

[filter price and all the rest of the burden]

And fat and other small crap accumulates in a fine filter, on a plastic case and a mesh.

I'm talking about him - clean. Which is a mesh, a plastic cylinder with a mesh.
We need to see what filter they write about in the PMM instructions, about its cleaning every time.

This is how I followed your link, looked filter price and all the rest of the burden and once again you are convinced that if you can rinse the dishes in the sink before the PMM, and not just shake off something in the bucket, you need to rinse it, even using the program in the PMM with preliminary rinsing. But! Just sauce, sour cream from a plate, you don't need to rinse it. or a bowl of soup. But! If there is even the smallest particles of something, greens - be sure to go to the sink, so that you do not injure the PMM mesh filter by cleaning!

But! If there is even the smallest particles of something, greens - be sure to go to the sink, so that you do not injure the PMM mesh filter by cleaning!

Not ... We do not engage in such meticulousness. The strainer is usually simply washed with hot water, possibly with detergent, without the use of cleaning tools.Well, with a soft sponge, we will gently run it over the surface, if anything stuck ...

PMM care and prevention is absolutely necessary and necessary. But only to the extent that the efforts and costs of maintenance and such care are within reasonable limits, justifying the maintenance of such technology. But everyone sets these limits for himself ...

[ludmila_27.79]

ludmila_27.79, I also read on another site that dirty filters affect the amount of water consumed, I remember because I was surprised. But I don't have such fashionable metering devices.
Crystal vase soaps - shine like that. So vases are washed better! Glass lids from pots, and especially pans, are also perfectly washed. I used to wash them with aggressive products.

I tried to wash the protein deposits from the pan using the 40g program. Nuuu ... not very laundered. And the pan lids were generally dirty. I read the composition. Phosphate is what composition should it be?

Girls and boys, dear, sentry, the dishwasher finally broke. Where to look now? Budget up to 50 and full size. Everyone praises Bosch, and someone says that Bosch is not the same. I'll start reading the top, but maybe there are some current favorites? I need to decide pretty quickly.

someone says

listen to talkers less, because.

not that

we can say, practically, about any brand.
But this does not change the quality control system of products at each of the firms. Bosch is fine with this.

But this does not change the quality control system of products at each of the firms. Bosch is fine with this.

And there is a hole in the old woman)) As an example, my dishwasher Bosch, who expressed a passionate desire to go to the service in the first month of use, although after that she corrected herself and now pleases us, but the fact is the fact. And this is not only to the fact that Bosch is not the same now, now everything is not the same: you buy equipment - you participate in the lottery.