Temperature equalization before mixing

In no way do I want to belittle the advantages of the Kenwood stove, but according to your answer I did not understand - how does this function work for Panas? What determines the warm-up time for, for example, the Main program. Within the same program, does the time vary from external conditions (air temperature)?

The equalization time depends on the outside temperature, longer in summer, shorter in winter.

[lega]

lega, on the previous page and I wrote, and a link to the desired topic was given.

How it works for Panasonic:

There is no preheating of food during the "temperature equalization" stage. It is simply a calculation of how long under existing conditions it will take for the dough to mature normally.

There is a slight heating during the proofing of the dough.

if the oven's thermal sensor thinks that it is cold, the kneading will start earlier, so that the dough has the opportunity to stand and heat up longer in the proofer (after all, it takes time to evenly warm 0.5-1 kg of dough by several degrees).

if the sensor is warm, kneading will start later, so that the dough does not oversurge. The proofing time is then significantly reduced.

[lega]

lega, on the previous page I wrote, and a link to the desired topic was given.

How it works for Panasonic:

There is no preheating of food during the "temperature equalization" stage. It is simply a calculation of how long under existing conditions it will take for the dough to mature normally.

This is not entirely true ... At the moment the HP is turned on, the heating element turns on literally for a couple of seconds (there was already info about this in the internet, measured by the HP consumption current) this heat is enough to equalize the temperature of the products

how many faced with non-branded stoves, everyone on the whole grain program is warming up. I don't even know how much, I don't use it, I don't need it. Once I waited 15 minutes, then I got tired

This is not entirely true ... At the moment the HP is turned on, the heating element turns on literally for a couple of seconds (there was already info about this in the internet, measured by the current consumption of HP) this heat is enough to equalize the temperature of the products

Is the consumption of a bread machine just heating? A couple of seconds, and even without at least minimal heating of the heating element itself, is absolutely not enough for any more or less real alignment or something else. Most likely, this is a test inclusion.

Rina72 100%

[lega]

lega, on the previous page and I wrote, and a link to the desired topic was given.

Rina, I know how it works for Panasonic. She herself gave a link to this topic and I have Panasonic (indicated in the profile). The question was about the Kenwoods. Because Marusya claims that there is also such a function there. That's interesting - just the same, or is it something else that is meant? If different, what exactly? maybe it's even better than Panas?

sorry, I misread the question ("so how" instead of "also how")

Is the consumption of a bread machine just heating? A couple of seconds, and even without at least minimal heating of the heating element itself, is absolutely not enough for any more or less real alignment or something else. Most likely, this is a test inclusion.

Well, then how to explain the fact that in my kitchen at a temperature of 13-15 * C in winter
and the temperature of the milk from the refrigerator at 3 * C produces bread
Does yeast really like cold milk?

This is a time called "temperature equalization" (delay before the start of mixing) - no heating of the products occurs.But during kneading and proofing, the ten works, moreover, quite actively.

Does yeast really like cold milk?

Sazalexter, there is no leveling in my HP, and I always take milk from the refrigerator and never heat it, and it's a sin to complain about the quality of the bread.

This is a time called "temperature equalization" (delay before the start of mixing) - no heating of the products occurs.

The food is "heated" to room temperature.
To equalize the starting potential of, for example, milk from the refrigerator and warm milk.

Well, then how to explain the fact that in my kitchen at a temperature of 13-15 * C in winter
and the temperature of the milk from the refrigerator at 3 * C produces bread
Does yeast really like cold milk?

It's really strange how this dough stays in the refrigerator all night, and in the morning you open the refrigerator, and there is twice as much dough as in the evening

The food is "heated" to room temperature.
To equalize the starting potential, for example, milk from the refrigerator and warm milk.

And if we pour warm milk, and in the kitchen +10?
I actually meant that there is no forced heating with a heating element.

[Sazalexter]

There is no preheating of food during the "temperature equalization" stage. It is simply a calculation of how long under existing conditions it will take for the dough to mature normally.

Until recently, I also held this point of view. But recently I realized that this is not entirely true. Recently, I have either not very yeast, or flour ...., but the kneading starts when the timer is 3:00, and then I had to add the proving time. I got tired of these dances with a fork, and I decided to try the method that Margit wrote about - to put something from the freezer into the HP. For the first time, I did not immediately remember this and did not immediately after turning on the stove put a tray of meat from the freezer in there. There was no result - the batch started on a timer at 3:00. The next time, I first stuffed two trays of meat into the HP and only then turned on the HP. While I was collecting the recipe from three types of flour and all sorts of additives, sifting, etc., the timer was already 3:38, and the stove made characteristic clicks. And so, when I began to get the freeze from the HP, I found that the heating element was pretty hot. Even the saucer melted slightly. This is my conclusion. If the HP considers that the temperature is very low, then it nevertheless turns on the heating element and heats it up. Sazalexter wrote that the stove heats up the heating element when leveling. Sazalexter - You are right, only it didn’t heat up for a couple of seconds, but started heating right away as soon as the sensor determined the temperature as very extreme. I even started to respect our Panasik for intelligence.

[lega]

In such extreme circumstances, few people have tried to use the stove. Well, no one seriously froze her. My statements are based on the experience of working at +18 ... + 25

Yours for me, lega, experience is confirmation that the working range of external temperatures with the possibility of obtaining a stable result is very large in Panas.

In total, we have (this is still theoretical calculations):
1. If the temperature is too low, the stove will be heated during the "temperature equalization" to some optimal level.
2. If the temperature is in the "normal" range (say, from +18), then the oven will already be warmed up during kneading and proofing of the dough.
3. it is quite possible that at a temperature of +28 and above, the stove will not even be heated up during kneading and proofing.

[Sazalexter]

Until recently, I also adhered to this point of view. But recently I realized that this is not entirely true. Recently, I have either not very yeast, or flour ...., but the kneading starts when the timer is 3:00, and then I had to add the proving time. I got tired of these dances with a fork, and I decided to try the method that Margit wrote about - to put something from the freezer into the HP.For the first time, I did not immediately remember this and did not immediately after turning on the stove put a tray of meat from the freezer there. There was no result - the batch started on a timer at 3:00. The next time, I first stuffed two trays of meat into the HP and only after that turned on the HP. While I was collecting a recipe from three types of flour and all sorts of additives, sifting, etc., the timer was already 3:38, and the stove made characteristic clicks. And so, when I began to get the freeze from the HP, I found that the heating element was pretty hot. Even the saucer melted slightly. This is my conclusion. If the HP considers that the temperature is very low, then it still turns on the heating element and heats it up. Sazalexter wrote that the stove heats up the heating element when leveling. Sazalexter - You are right, only it did not heat up for a couple of seconds, but began to heat up immediately, as soon as the sensor determined the temperature as very extreme. I even started to respect our Panasik for intelligence.

lega
I wrote several times that it is not necessary to turn on the oven at all. This is all done with the x / stove completely turned off. And only after the chamber has cooled, turn on the breadmaker. Now, with the passage of time, I have found out that it is not even necessary to put frozen food in the bread maker, but it is enough to hold a piece of ice on the temperature sensor for literally 1 minute and even less - 30-40 seconds. And only after that turn on the x / oven, set the program and start putting the load of products into the bucket.

[lega]

lega With flour and I have problems, so I changed from Tverskaya to Makfa, while everything is fine, I tried the Moscow "Extra", it was all right. If something goes wrong, I add Panifarin and I stopped buying flour a lot, a maximum of 4 kg

[lega]

lega
I wrote several times that it is not necessary to turn on the oven at all. This is all done with the x / stove completely turned off.

Margit, my post is not about your method, but about the action of HP in such conditions. Your way is good, thanks for the idea. I stove always I turn it on right away, and then I start to collect the bucket. I was already used to this algorithm and it was this circumstance that made it possible to reveal that the ten will heat up if it is really cold in the kitchen.

in my kitchen at a temperature of 13-15 * C in winter

sazalexter , yes, I also adapted to different flours. Here I mentioned this only in order to explain why such "dances" suddenly come from.

[lega]

lega
I wrote several times that it is not necessary to turn on the oven at all. This is all done with the x / stove completely turned off. And only after the chamber has cooled, turn on the breadmaker.

In previous experiments, out of habit, I first turned on the stove, and then tried to put freeze and HP there, most often I started kneading an hour after the start. After Margit drew my attention to the fact that freezing should be placed before turning on HP, I conducted the following experiment. In no way am I trying to assert what it is need to to do, but to understand the possible actions of HP, I experimented. The result is the following - HP determines the algorithm of its actions in the very first moments after switching on. If you put the freeze for a time sufficient to lower the temperature inside the HP (it was easy to determine - by hand), then it then starts mixing always at 3-35 on the timer and heating element includes at once(at the leveling stage), begins to warm up (it was also determined by hand and the clicks of the relay were heard).

[21:00. I tried it.]

I can also experiment with temperature changes during leveling. By means of objective control.
I have an electronic thermometer with pea-sized remote sensors in my horseless farm. Measuring T with an accuracy of 0.1 degrees. I put a sensor on a thin cable into the heating element zone, cover it and look at the display. The heating element turns on when leveling or not. I'll try it tonight.

21:00. I tried it.
Conditions.
Two thermal sensors. The first, control HP outside the hull. Measures the temperature in the room. The second is suspended inside the HP in the gap between the heating element and the bucket at the level of the heating element.
Experience 1.
The readings of the first and the second coincide and are equal to +24.5 C. After switching on the "main" mode in the HP, nothing happened for 20 minutes.
Conclusion - the temperature is normal, the process is running normally and does not need correction from the CP. Reset. Experience terminated.

Experience 2.
The temperature in the bucket is lowered with a handful of snow. After cooling, the snow is removed, the bucket is placed in the HP. The reading of the sensor inside fell and continues to fall further. At + 12C, I switched on the "main" mode. The temperature immediately began to rise. Clicks are heard characteristic of the thermal expansion of the heating element. The heating element was clearly turned on. After 2 minutes, the readings of both sensors matched, i.e. the temperature in the gap reached room temperature. At the beginning of the fifth minute, at a temperature in the gap of + 33.4C, the heating turned off. The temperature began to drop and after ten minutes it became below room. Apparently, as a result of the first heating, the bucket has not yet evened out the temperature, remaining quite cold. At the 22nd minute at T = 22.7, the batch started. Experience terminated. The program has stopped.

Conclusion. The program attempted heating. Based on the analysis of temperature changes, a command was developed to turn on the batch earlier in comparison with the standard one. Presumably, in order to increase the time of its subsequent rise at a colder temperature. Will the heating cycle be repeated while the process continues? I think yes.

The conclusion is general.
When using the oven in a mode other than automatic with a "leveling" stage, it is better not to show off. Or, everything is fine with him and the HP can be not turned on at all, or, if the temperature is not standard, the batch can turn on at an arbitrary moment that is not controlled and not necessary for us. What is not gut.
So I shouldn't have practiced this alignment yesterday when baking. It's good that everything turned out so happily.

Rina was right.

Here I am stupid !!! I should have read this topic before the first start ...

[this]

and also here this... Here, very many have gone through adventures with silent HP.

Thank you all for the interesting information about the methods of bullying the bread maker. Now the experiments on bread production have been stopped due to the exhaustion of flour supplies in the whole house. It seems to me that my new oven overheats the dough during prolonged proofing on the Main program. During temperature equalization, it is hot enough inside, and it does not seem that the heating element often turns off. When I stuck my nose into it to see if the kneading had begun, it smelled of heat in my face. The crust turns out to be darker, thicker, crisp, and not Medium, as I looked at the photos on the forum. The boom is to measure the temperature of the air and of the test itself at different stages to reveal patterns ...

* today found a second user with a nickname wasp... It's strange why I managed to register.

Well, wow .... My HP ten definitely doesn’t include until it’s close to baking. Neither on the main mode, nor on others with kneading and proofing .. Something is wrong here.

I would advise, when telling about temperature equalization and heating during proofing, to indicate what temperature is in the room, what temperature was the food, and whether there were any interventions in the operation of the HP in the form of forced cooling of the sensor, for example.

Sorry, but at that moment the thermometer was not at hand ... The mess continues in the kitchen connected with the move. According to the readings of a wall thermometer, the room was +26 when the bread was made, and +16 when it was not. All products were taken at room temperature. I beg your pardon, but I can't calm down until I figure out how this piece of hardware works and what kind of programs it has (the source manufacturer does not give it). I do not want to unscrew - I will lose the guarantee. It would be great if you could write your own firmware for the stove! Or downloading them from the Internet imagined that there would be viruses for bread makers ...

[Oca]

Oca The Panasonic concept and firmware keeps under seven seals. Although the service manual was found with great difficulty, there is on the forum https://Mcooker-enn.tomathouse.com/index.php@option=com_content&task=view&id=190&Itemid=207

[Wasp]

Waspseems to be the answer. If it was cold enough in the kitchen, the oven warmed the dough to make that dough rise so the yeast could work. The only question is why it was so hot. It is possible that the HP receives the operation algorithm from the temperature sensor at the time the program is started, but in the process of operation it can no longer regulate. Did you freeze this sensor by any chance?

[Rina]

Did you freeze this sensor by any chance?

Rina, the sensor did not freeze. I acted according to the instructions for the bread maker, in which it is recommended not to touch it at all. There is such an idea ... a neighbor was drilling something with a puncher, - behind the wall, repairs are in full swing. From this, there could well have been an interference in the power chain and, as I read on the Internet, this could lead to a program failure. It's a pity, I don't remember where I put the multimeter, I had to immediately check the sockets (it got colder, splits and heaters turned on in the house, I turned on the heating pad itself). I also found out that many people hook a multicooker and a bread maker through a stabilizer or OOPS. Probably, I should think about it ... In the old place of residence this summer the monitor, the old TV set, part of the power supply in the new TV and the Chinese charger along with the battery died. Amen. Some have already been repaired, but the old TV set had to be written off ... it is impractical to repair it.
So, sir, after 23:00 no drills, and at night the energy consumption in the house should decrease ... I'll go put the bread for the night, and in the morning I'll taste the result
Thank you all for your support!

Morning ... fog ... PI-PI !!! I'm going to check the stove, mmmm ... the whole house has a scent. Oh, a miracle! A beautiful square bun, 14 cm tall and weighing 615g, with a crispy red crust! This means that flour and yeast are not to blame (of these packages, the 1st loaf is lumpy, and the second, today's - EXE).
I'll try to remake one IT anecdote:
Somehow a baker and a techie meet. Let each other complain about life. Technician:
- Just the other day I bought a bread maker, it doesn't work, so and so! I also replaced the blade, and rearranged the motor, and connected it through a voltage stabilizer - nothing helped. The bread, as it was a cake, remained.
- In-in, I seem to have a problem with the recipe, I changed the flour and bought fresh yeast, and the bread kneading does not even start!

After a long break, I took up the old - baking bread.
For this I even decided to try the ready-made mixture. And then I see the baby is not plowing.
I was about to cry. AND FOUND THIS topic. Thank you for clarifying everything for people like me.

After a long break, I took up the old - baking bread.
For this I even decided to try the ready-made mixture. And then I see the baby is not plowing.
I was about to cry. AND FOUND THIS topic. Thank you for clarifying everything for people like me.

There was no command to get upset, here, hold your bread - that's good! Bake with plain flour, I took general-purpose flour and baked such delicious bread, which was in the USSR "gray brick" for 16 kopecks. It has much more aroma than bread made from premium flour. Now I have 226V in the outlet, several breads turned out like twins: 400g of flour each - 12cm high! Hurrah! Even on a dough, the bread rose 3 times!

* this morning, 9.11, I took out a loaf of almost 13.5 cm! Tasty, crunchy Weight 585g, no oil added (crumb tastes better IMHO).

1. I just want to add that the "rounded" cooking time is specially selected for the convenience of using the timer. To easily determine the time by which the bread will be finished.

2. I would also like to thank Panasonic engineers for their wisdom, adherence to principles and uncompromising attitude towards the quality of bread. Imagine the threats and pressure faced by bosses and marketers for bread maker developers!

Everyone around is forced to develop bread makers with a minimum time for making bread. Different companies flaunt in front of each other, who will cook bread in a bread maker faster.The quality of the bread varies from case to case. Panasonic engineers had to make concessions and, under pressure from marketers and bosses, added accelerated bread modes.

But while the Panasonic engineers and developers firmly adhere to the position that the guaranteed quality of the baked bread is the most important thing. Bread preparation time should be as long as it is necessary for quality bread. No need to indulge the whims of marketers! We must respect the laws of physics and chemistry!

Thanks to these brave and principled engineers, there are (although practically the only ones on the market) reliable and high quality Panasonic bread makers!

[Kolobok II]

Kolobok II, I fully support in terms of "ripened" bread! It should slowly grow from a kolobok into a loaf. Who for "quick" bread can buy it in 5 minutes by running to the store. At first I tried to speed up the process, so I went into this topic, but then I realized: if the flour is wet before kneading, then the crumb structure will noticeably change for the better! True. I no longer rush the technique - she knows better how to bake bread

Tell me, when the process of equalizing the temperature of the ingredients is going on, is there a little heating or not?

And another question: at what temperature is the alignment going? 22 degrees? 25?

And a question regarding the lifting stage: there is heating, but by how many degrees?

Thanks to knowledgeable people for the answer.

[OlgaDr]

OlgaDr, at the top of this page the experiment is described in detail. As for my stove, I will say that in the first 0.5-2.5 hours (depending on the program) the temperature is equalized: it turns on the heating element only when the inside is less than + 20C (approximately). The heating is weak so that the yeast does not die. According to the recipe for buns, she poured milk from the refrigerator into a bucket and put a piece of butter. I put it on the dough, by the time of kneading the ingredients were already warm. After kneading, the temperature is constantly maintained at about 33-34 degrees. I won't say more precisely, because I usually put the dough on the timer before going to the store.

The aging process is interesting. SD-2501 on most baking programs temperature equalization on average 30 minutes (at home 24-25 degrees). Yes, some ingredients may be from the refrigerator, but I keep everything at room temperature. Now it's hot both outside and at home (27), so yesterday I put everything in a bucket and thought that the stove had broken. Exactly an hour later, the batch began. What the electronic brains have been thinking for an hour, I do not know.

She did not break anything, my Panasonic 2500 at a kitchen temperature of +31, also starts kneading in an hour. So now I have to do the kneading on "dumplings" or pizza, organize proofing in an electric oven with the light bulb on. And only after the second proofing do I send the L7 form to bake bread to Panasonka itself on the Baking program. , or rather, they do not have enough time for proofing, and the HP already includes the "Baking" mode of the bread that has not yet had time to really distance and which has not risen much.

She did not break anything, my Panasonic 2500 at a kitchen temperature of +31, also starts kneading in an hour. So now I have to do the kneading on "dumplings" or pizza, organize proofing in an electric oven with the light bulb on. And only after the second proofing I send the L7 form to bake bread to Panasonka itself on the Baking program. Otherwise, when the temperature is equalized for an hour, full proofing is not obtained , or rather, they do not have enough time for proofing, and the HP already includes the "Baking" mode of the bread that has not yet had time to really distance and which has not risen much.

And what if you start on the "Gluten Free" mode: 15-20 min. kneading + proofing 42-43 min. (only 45 min. only - "Baking". I even baked rye and wheat like that, and also baked with sourdough.

I agree, this can also be done and it may even be wiser.

everything is simple, I first put pizza on the mode, I mix, then on the French mode and all the bread turns out as it should

The aging process is interesting. SD-2501 on most baking programs temperature equalization on average 30 minutes (at home 24-25 degrees). Yes, some ingredients may be from the refrigerator, but I keep everything at room temperature. Now it's hot both outside and at home (27), so yesterday I put everything in a bucket and thought that the stove had broken. Exactly an hour later, the batch began. What the electronic brains have been thinking for an hour, I do not know.

In fact, I also noticed that now - when it is hot in the apartment - regardless of the temperature of the laid products - the process of temperature equalization is maximum.

I find only one logical explanation for all this. The electronic control board contains a program directly related to the temperature sensor. The developers of the stove have established a certain average statistical optimum temperature, which is most often found in kitchens. And everything that exceeds (and measures the temperature of the temperature sensor in the bread maker) the program takes for an insufficiently cooled bread machine after recent baking and waits for the oven to cool down for a certain maximum exposure time. In my heat, the oven starts kneading only after an hour. I'm already thinking about putting the stove in the freezer for 10 minutes on hot days before using it?

Creamy, but why put it somewhere, just mix all the ingredients on the pizza mode and set the French bread mode, and then let it equalize this tempera as much as necessary ... and the dough will ferment at this time, and this is the most important thing in order for bread turned out delicious

again twenty-five ... well, no need to scoff at the stove. The oven actually calculates the equalization time based on the temperature in the kitchen at the start of the program. The higher the temperature, the more the dough heats up during kneading and proofing, the less time this process will take. The colder it gets, the longer it takes. If the sensor is overcooled, the oven will heat up the dough, but do you need it in such and such heat?

guys, I love my stove, and the freezer is, of course, a joke.

I love people with humor

we have a sensor frozen here ... really frozen. So, the "freezer" was - not put into the freezer, but freezing inside.

Sometimes it is very necessary to quickly cool the temperature sensor. In the kitchen these days the heat is +32 degrees, it was necessary to have time to bake three loaves by a certain time. I charged the first one for the night, the second in the morning, and the third could not start cooking in any way - the stove was barely warm to the touch, but the U50 error gives out. Half an hour of waiting was forced to attach a bag of milk from the refrigerator to the sensor. After 30 seconds, the stove went to work.