Iziuminkin's favorite bread

[Tatjanka_1]

Tatjanka_1

I can't quite clearly understand from the photo, but it seems that you baked in a mold. And if the bread for baking was transplanted into another vessel, then it was also not large enough for the bread to "explode", increase in volume and open along the cuts.
In addition to everything, it was necessary to "dig", that is, cut deeper.
And one moment. Preheat the oven with a bowl into which you will transfer the distant bread for baking to the maximum possible for your oven - I have it 300 *. During the time that you transplant the bread and do all the necessary manipulations, the temperature will just drop to the desired one.
This is how you close the oven and turn the handle to 230 *.

good luck to you. You are making undeniable progress. Everything will definitely work out.

So I am here with my question, but if you add milk and butter instead of water when kneading the dough, you also need a different temperature regime?

Exactly. The more baking (sugar, milk, eggs, lactic acid products, butter) in the dough, the lower the temperature should be set.
For bread only on water and without sugar, the baking temperature is required much higher than for baking. Butter bread at 230 * will burn on top, but will not bake inside.

I did not understand the zest, I have serum instead of water.
You say that when there are sour-milk products T ° in the dough, you need to do less, so I did not 250 ° but 230 °.
I read somewhere but did not attach importance to whether it is possible to bake bread with convection in the oven.
Look at my photos above post 140 - I baked it at T-250 °, and already below the next one at T-230 °

[Tatjanka_1]

Tatjanka_1

well, then let's deal with your bread to the fullest extent of the law.

You write that "I made dough with 30 grams of French sourdough + 200 ml of whey and 200 grams of rye and wheat flour each."
A completely different flour-liquid ratio went into your dough than in my recipe. Not 200 g flour per 200 g liquid, not counting the leaven, but 400 g flour per 200 g liquid.

Therefore, it is not entirely clear with the subsequent kneading of the dough - how much and what flour and liquid was added during kneading?

It could be elementary that the amount of flour introduced with dough significantly exceeded the amount of flour added when kneading the dough, and in this case, if the flour is still weak, without a significant gluten content, it is almost impossible to keep the mirror-smooth surface of the bread.

For me, the ideal in taste and appearance of the bread turned out to be just such a ratio of dough to flour added during kneading, as in this recipe - approximately 400 g of dough + 400-450 g of flour.

Go ahead. It is also unclear how much water was added during mixing? It could have turned out that the bread did not have enough liquid and cracked from this.
Another likely reason is insufficient proofing of the bread. Even if you were guided by a 2-fold increase, then this might not be the final and indisputable indicator that the bread has already risen enough. When you bake on one leaven, without yeast, you need to intuitively look at the state of the dough. Sometimes it can rise more than 3 times, and sometimes 1.5 p. will barely increase.

As for the baking temperature. It was somehow the case that for this recipe I replaced the liquid in the dough for water mixed with sour cream (comparable to whey), but forgot to lower the baking temperature. The bread turned out to be of a usual appearance, with open cuts, but it was too tanned. Undoubtedly, the temperature should be lowered if you have serum in the test.

It seems to me that you did not understand what I was talking about. Maybe I didn't quite clearly express my idea.I always preheat the oven 30 degrees more than the one that will be needed for baking. This is based on the fact that after I open the door, plant the bread, sprinkle it, close the lid, the temperature in the oven will just drop to the required temperature for baking. For example, when baking "my" bread, I initially preheat the oven to 260 *, then, when the bread is already in the oven and the door is closed, I move the regulator to 230 *.

As for whey bread, I would preheat the oven to about 230, and then reduce it to 190-200. Again, this must be selected depending on the characteristics of your oven.

The question of convection. I went through a lot of combinations according to baking modes. I stopped at this combination: the first 15-20 minutes with the lid closed in the "bottom heat with convection" mode, after removing the lid until ready in the "convection" mode.
The point is also that at the first stage of baking you used both the bottom and top heat, and in new ovens the top crust "grasps" very quickly, when the bread itself is still bursting from the inside.
Therefore, she refused this regime.

You see how many opportunities there are for mistakes. At first, when you just start baking with sourdough in the oven, I would still advise you to be very careful about changes in recipes, learn how to do it correctly according to tried-and-true recipes, "feel" the process, and then feel free to go to your experiments

[What do i do]

Zest, of course I apologize, for my slip of the tongue, I took 30 grams. starter cultures + 100g. Psh. m. + 100gr. Rzh. m., and everything else according to the recipe.
You have analyzed my mistakes in such detail (but I mistakenly wrote it wrong) that I am not even comfortable for my incident
What do i do

[What do i do]

What do i do

it's very easy to be)) Try to make it according to the recipe without changes, it will be easier.
The same dough, ripened on whey, and not on plain water, may have different qualities and affect bread.
Let's start learning the recipe without changes And as it turns out, we will embark on a free experimental voyage

[Tatjanka_1]

Tatjanka_1

One more point remained unclear. Where do you place your bread and where do you transfer it for baking? Is there a sufficient size difference between the proofing pan and the baking dish?

Zest, if possible, I am here, too, with a question about the baking dish. Are regular baking dishes worse for these breads? Need a thick-walled mold ??? I tried to bake in the usual form for bread with a non-stick coating, the bread turned out worse, and rose lower, the top is baked, and the bottom is light ... I don't understand, or have I been tricky with the recipe and temperature, or the shape is too thin to keep warm ?? And another question about rye bread: if you replace whole flour with rye flour in a recipe when making a sourdough dough, will the remaining proportions be preserved? My white breads seem to be made according to your recipes, rye bread rose medium last time, but the crust was so tough. Maybe you need to bake it without steam ???
Thanks in advance for the advice

[Ogorod]

Ogorod
Yes, for such "orphan's bread", which contains only flour, salt and water, thick-walled forms or something new-fangled like Berghoff woks are desirable.
Only such breads my family agrees to eat with borscht or roast. All the rest of the bread, in their deepest conviction, is intended as a bun with milk.

Your second question. I have never completely replaced all the flour in the dough only with rye. To me this seems overwhelming and not to my taste. I often bake bread when I take 100 g of whole grain and 100 g of rye flour for dough.
I leave the proportions the same.

Yes, the breads are delicious. The fact that such cooking really reveals the aroma of wheat, I agree with you. I made this bread from second grade flour and added cheese, very tasty. Only the flour should be of high quality. I bought a whole grain at a local bakery, the bread turned out to be beautiful, fluffy, cut, and the smell of sacks was damp. For some reason, packaged bran, flour of different sorts are not sold in our stores, we are glad that we found the second grade.Well, okay, we'll be content with what we have, and for recipes and recommendations, another thanks

[Ogorod]

Ogorod

well, it’s a joy to my heart that I understood this "Only flour should be of high quality" and the forms are good and a hundred thousand more to make good bread, like the author in the photo))

[HIGHLY]

Zest, thank you again for the answer, I have now revised my posts on Viki and it is strange for you, I did not find my gratitude to you for my first bread,
it was on October 12th post at Viki 982 and I also wrote to you, I thought you didn't even answer me If, ​​of course, you have time to look at them.
https://Mcooker-enn.tomathouse.com/index.php@option=com_smf&Itemid=26&topic=4994.975
and then posts 1031 and 1075.

But I repeat: I expressed my gratitude to you there for HIGHLY a successful recipe, as well as for Paraskina pasca, I bake it endlessly, because WELL VERY TASTY.
I've been here since spring and try to read as much as possible, I highly interesting
We have a war in the family, I can only be found at the computer or in the kitchen near the leaven (as my husband says).
But I was so carried away by this site, although I have had HP for 12 years, but it was not possible to find a site where I could study.
And now, I just have free time, always with YOU.
I am very grateful to those people who started this
So I'll return to the beginning of my question, if of course you can look at my posts, then you will understand that I baked bread according to your well, very successful recipe, the only thing I changed was the flour ratio.
I think it's okay to get the bread you want at the moment
Zest completely forgot to answer your question, I am arranging bread and baking in a ceramic form, which, well, may differ by 1 cm. wider than the other.

[Tatjanka_1]

Tatjanka_1

You almost brought me to tears with your post. I always try to answer everyone in my topics, but you, apparently, got exactly in that period when I was totally busy.
well, forgive me, if today is my day off, then I try to answer everything.

If you get Paraskina Pasca, then this is an undoubted success in baking.

I also understand that I want to get the taste of bread according to my needs.
But if many people succeed in it, but you do not, then this is not really my problem. I'm just ready to help you. This is a remark about Izyuminkin.

But the difference of 1 cm between the forms is very small. You need at least 5.

This is a remark about Izyuminkin.

I didn't understand this, ??? but about the form, unfortunately, I realized that it is too small

Zest, thank you again for the answer, I have now revised my posts on Viki and it is strange for you, I did not find my gratitude to you for my first bread,
it was on October 12, a post on Viki 982 and I wrote to you too

sorry for my arrogance, but I realized that it was about my bread.

[BUT]

Zest you know, this is certainly not in that post I am writing, but your Paraskina pasca can be freely stored for 2-3 weeks, it has already been tested.
It just so happens that I bake, bake everything new,BUT knowing that she is in the refrigerator and will come in handy at any time that she nothing does not threaten.
Just take it out of the refrigerator to stand for about 2 hours and it is poured like honey juice, did you not feel it?

[Tatjanka_1]

you didn't even answer me

Tatjanka_1, do not be offended. I also bake a lot and post photos with thanks. Sometimes my posts are not noticed.
On this forum, for the first time I encountered that a person posts a photo of his work and immediately in the next post the second forum member also writes a message or posts a photo, completely ignoring the previous post. Although he also expects praise from the members of the forum. When I first registered, I saw the words Admin somewhere (I don't remember literally), but the point is that if you want to be left with comments, then do not forget to do it yourself.
And Zest always leaves no post unattended. That's for sure.
And most importantly, you bake delicious breads, buns, etc.
and the more practice, the more proudly you can bear the name of the honored baker.

and the more practice, the more proudly you can bear the name of the honored baker.

and with pride and joy!
Indeed, it is very interesting how each time it turns out more delicious and more beautiful.
There is a creative process, so to speak! Handwork!
My family is waiting for the weekend to make a real yummy starter culture!
Thanks to Izuminka and other craftswomen for being taught to understand what we are doing!

do not be offended.

Zhivchik yes, God bless you, I'm not offended by anyone, I'm only grateful that I got here.
And a big bow and a lot of health I wish Admin, Viki: flowers: Izumenka, Stеrn and of course everyone who created and maintains this site

Zest! Thanks again for the science. Here is such a gray bread I get using your technology. (I was desperate to cope with the camera and took a photo on my phone).
it's in the oven

this is fresh from their oven

well, in the top. Photo quality of course ...... hmm. well, the main thing is that it is tasty and beautiful.

What can I say, girls? .. Publishing your recipe, and even more so your topic, is associated with a huge responsibility for those who undertake to do something after you. You must be ready to answer possible questions and help overcome all kinds of pitfalls.

I always try to be "responsible for those who have been tamed." But please, do not forget that we are real people, with our affairs, work, worries, family, etc. We cannot be called by pressing a key on a computer. We are flesh and blood just like you. If any question remained unanswered, then it is not at all out of a desire to ignore or offend, but simply NOT ENOUGH TIME.
Dear ones, if I have ignored someone else, forgive me, this is not because there was nothing to pay attention to, this is because I did not have time and tried to embrace the immensity.

Zest, I have a report, I have not exhibited bread for a long time, everything cracked, but here I lowered the baking temperature, added gluten, that's what happened


cutter

Wort, clever girl! 🔗 YOUTH !!!

And I'm here today BATON ON ZAKVASK sculpted.

Nice bar, ran out and looked, too, I'll try to make it.
And I went on a visit today, with a loaf of bread and it cracked again, although I did everything in the same way as in the previous one. Some kind of anomaly ...

Zest to YOU ​​again bow, took YOUR recipe as a basis, just changing the difference in flour today I added 50g. 6 grains soaked overnight and 50g. ground buckwheat


THANKS to you

[Suslya]

Suslya

beautiful bread.
As far as I know, you don't add yeast at all? It is difficult to achieve a stable result with one sourdough, sometimes it is capricious, that's the difference in the quality of the bread. At least, it seems to me so, if I did everything else without any changes.

tuskarora

well done. It's very nice that you bake according to my recipe

Tatjanka_1

smart girl. The main thing here is to understand the algorithm of actions, and then you can change the taste of the bread to infinity, and each time you get bread with a different taste.

Yes, I don't add yeast. And I'll try it with yeast, maybe I'll get a more predictable dough, not a whim.

Good afternoon Raisin and other experienced bakers!

First, a little background (if you don't feel like reading, just skip it)….

After a couple of unsuccessful attempts to raise a Frenchwoman, I decided that until I bought the scales and read the entire branch about the Federal Law, I would not go overboard by the third attempt. I poured my "spoiled" sourdough into a pe bag and temporarily put it in the sink (I didn't want to fill the bucket with garbage), and after putting the first part of a new gas station, I sat down to read the forum (I had already bought the scales by that time) ...

Somewhere on page 30 of the branch about the Federal Law, I realized that my "spoiled" gas station, maybe not spoiled, and even if it did not work out, then you can breathe life into it

Fortunately, I have not yet had time to throw it out.And then I open the package and see, bah! Yes, she just bloomed all - bubbling merrily, smells delicious (by the time I "threw her out" 6-7 hours had passed) ... She probably got scared of her fate and began to behave as expected of her !!! And then, armed with knowledge of 30 pages, I already knew what to do. The plan was as follows (1) bake Iziuminkin favorite bread (2) with pancakes and (3) 5 grams of storage

Tasks No. 2 and No. 3 completed perfectly. The pancakes are awesome, the starter is in storage, behaves as it should (I already knew about the labels and about the temperature and all that), but the main task was a bummer ... that's why I'm writing, HELP to figure it out. Although I confess ... after 60 by that time pages of the branch about the Federal Law, there was no longer enough strength for this branch - although, as I thought, I read the main messages carefully and even several times - and still mixed them up.

Immediately, I note that the bread turned out well OOOVery tasty, but still not as it should be.

I know one mistake myself - I read it 100 times and still confused it !!!. I then went by the way of a large amount of sourdough (200 g), and did the technological comb as on a small amount (that is, I did not put it in the refrigerator!)

It may also matter that, in view of the first attempt, I decided to divide all proportions by 2

Now with the rest - the reasons for which I do not know

1) Leveling and kneading. I also have a Panas 255. Zest - you write that the leveling goes for 50 minutes, and I only had 25 minutes (maybe due to the fact that half of the recipe? Although this is strange)

2) The kneading continued in HB in the Basic mode and left the dough there until the end of the CEC (as you write). It first rose, and at the end, in 10-15 minutes - the village by 15 percent. Why ah?

3) Molding - the consistency of my dough was the same as in the photo, But I did not succeed in molding such a beautiful loaf, because it was constantly sticking to the spatula ... I put this uneven one on the proofer

4) Proofing - well, it didn’t rise twice, but it didn’t rise and the cuts didn’t "move around" .. but then I was all in violation of the technology

5) Baking - here I could not guess in any way, but there were no exact instructions. You write - after you have removed the oven cover until ready! And how to determine the readiness !!!!! I've obviously overexposed mine! The crust turned out to be thick and the crumb adjacent to it was dry (the one that did not dry out inside was just awesome - tasty, beautiful with holes and rubber - in the good sense of the word)

Zest, one of these days if I find time I want to try again - I will be very grateful for "working on my mistakes" - especially those for which I do not understand

I took a picture of my loaf, and in the context, and so, but I do not know how to lay out

🔗

🔗

🔗

they taught me how to insert a photo
and I also remembered ... my paper stuck - probably it also needed to be sprinkled with flour?

In theory - the paper is already "oiled" and should not stick. Moreover, at high baking temperatures, it dries up. Try a different type of parchment. And get used to molding - this is a matter of experience, but a lot depends on it. Here is a good video on dough forming 🔗

ooo cool video !!! thanks kava

I certainly did not carry out such manipulations ... it was said with a paw - so I beat my sides with a paw and that's it

I always baked in KhP and I absolutely always got wonderful bread in it, and biscuits, cakes, and pie always came out the first time, but here the couple did not ask for bread with sourdough ...

but i will try

[Flyer]

Flyer

Those who joined the ranks of the fermentors - ardent greetings
Dashing trouble is the beginning, further, with the acquisition of experience, it will be easier

Let's go in order.

Judging by the behavior of the sourdough during the growing period, you did not let it ripen properly, but in the trash can, in warmth and peace, it finally reached the desired concentration, bubbled and cheered up

[b] "I then went by way of a large amount of sourdough (200 g), and I did the technological carding as on a small amount (that is, I did not put it in the refrigerator!)"[/ b]

There is no mistake here, the method of long fermentation in the refrigerator can be used both in the first and in the second case, I just gave different options and methods of action.If you take a large amount of sourdough, then it is not at all necessary to send the workpiece to the refrigerator, you can give it a proofing until it is approximately 2 times larger and bake.

Now on the questions:

1. Temperature equalization time in Panasonic depends on the ambient temperature, the higher it is, the longer this period. I published my post on May 19, when it was already quite hot, so this very period lasted for about 50 minutes. If your kitchen is pretty cool now, the leveling time could be reduced to 25 minutes to give more time for the dough to ripen. This has nothing to do with the fact that you did half the portion.

2. I hold the dough for a full cycle - until the signal about the end of the Dough Mode of the Main Program. It could settle a little at the very end either because they looked too hard and often looked inside to admire the dough, letting in cold air along the way, or the dough had ripened to its peak and began to decline. In any case, such a slight "subsidence" could not be fatal for the bread.

3. And this is where the fun begins, where the legs grow from. If you sent the unformed dough for baking, then no cuts could open, and the loaf itself could not puff up and grow properly during proofing and baking.
kava I gave you a link to a good video, I also learned from it. If the wet dough is "folded" with a scraper several times and correctly shaped, then an impermeable film is stretched on top of the batter, which keeps the whole dough "in a heap" in the correct shape. You can't explain it on your fingers ... you have to watch the video. In short, I first fold the dough several times, then pull all the edges to the center in the form of blades, turn it with the "navel" down and scroll it several times, stretching the surface. in, explained. But I hope that after the video it will be more or less clear.
In any case, you will have to learn how to mold bread, otherwise you will not see beautiful loafs.

4. It could not be otherwise. An unformed workpiece will not be able to rise properly on proofing, the surface will not "crack" when cutting, like a ripe watermelon, and when baking, these same cuts will not open enticingly.

5. Extremely precise baking instructions, so that there can be no step to the right or a step to the left. It also depends on your oven, on the presence of convection in it, and on whether you are making a full portion or half (small bread, of course, will bake faster).
I check the readiness of the bread with a temperature probe, measure it so that the temperature in the middle of the bread reaches about 95-97 * C. If there is no temperature probe, you can focus on time and appearance. A full portion is baked for 15 minutes. under the lid at 230 * C, and about 20-25 minutes more. without lid at 220 * С with convection. The crust should be golden, brown, but in no case burnt. If you see that the bread looks exactly like this, you can take it out and knock on it with your knuckles - if the sound is like knocking on an empty closed box, then the bread is ready.

I never baked a half portion, it is necessary to select the time for it empirically, but obviously 12 minutes under the lid and another 15 minutes without the lid would be enough. If the oven bakes heavily, then with a half portion, you can reduce the temperature to 200-210 * C without a lid.

The baking paper should definitely be changed. The dough only sticks to the one that is not of very good quality. And dusting with flour will not help such paper.

But in general - you are going the right way, ally in baking
The main mistake is in forming and temperature conditions and baking time.

I wish you success with your new attempts!

I certainly did not carry out such manipulations ... it was said with a paw - so I beat my sides with a paw and that's it

I was clearly puzzled. This is where it was said - to beat the side with a spatula?
It was said - with a scraper to form the bread

But this is already particular)) The main thing is that the desire did not disappear to the furnace and move in the chosen direction
And this means that the result will definitely be))

P.S. looked at your photos.For bread, formed in such an exotic way, it turned out very well

If there are still dark spots and unclear places - contact

thank you very much! a lot has cleared up, but with the molding I will burst to correct ... my hands are already itching to try, it's a pity that the next one. I’ll hardly find time for the weekend

with the rest, too, everything is very clear, I think questions may arise after attempt # 2 (of course, with a report).

Zest - I asked a question in the thread about the Federal Law - don't answer ... I really don't want to lose the leaven to the next. on the weekend ... and I have a second one on the way (I started a new one - I had no idea that the previous one was alive and well)

thanks again

[Flyer]

Flyer

nothing, we'll live to see monday next weekend.
I think that on the second try everything will work out

Now I will turn to the topic of Fr. starter cultures.

I forgot to ask one more question - my dough did not rise 2 times - a maximum of a third or a little more. Although the filling was very good in appearance, and then when I fed it (filling for storage) it went up 2 times ... why didn't the dough rise?

I forgot to ask one more question - my dough did not rise 2 times - a maximum of a third or a little more. Although the filling was very good in appearance, and then when I fed it (filling for storage) it went up 2 times ... why did the dough not rise?

And how long did the dough stand? Has it risen by a third and began to settle?
It did not rise either because the time was right or the temperature was not maintained, or the leaven itself was weak, not yet fully developed.

First kept the dough at the room. temperature +22 hours 9
then I put it closer to the battery (but not close) there +33 and held it for a couple of hours ...

no, she didn't seem to fall

[Flyer]

Flyer

Time and temperature are sufficient. Apparently, after all, the leaven was not yet in full force at that time.

well, yes, boom, they hope that in a week I will pump up her strength

Mix the dough with water, add flour, knead the dough without oil and salt and leave to rest for 50 minutes. With a new batch, add salt, after it is completely dissolved in the dough, add oil drop by drop.

We leave the dough alone for another 20-30 minutes.

Form the bread, let it stand for about 50 minutes. (up to 2x) with a cup of boiling water

Zest hello, I had this question:
if I do it according to your recipe, BUT a different amount of flour ratio for example 200g. Rzh. flour for the recipe (along with the dough), then I also have to knead the dough 2 times, as well as just on Psh. flour?

[Tatjanka_1]

Tatjanka_1

If I understood you correctly, do you want to make a dough using 200 g of rye flour?

In any case, if you move within the framework of the proposed scheme, i.e. 200 g of flour (in any combination) + 200 g of water for dough and 400 - 450 g of wheat flour + 200 g of water when kneading the dough, then the manufacturing technology remains unchanged.

If only you make some global changes in qualitative and quantitative ratios, then a change in technology may be required.

[200gr. hw. flour]

The zest in your recipe is 600g. flour + 400g. liquids SO!
If I replace it with 600psh. flour = 400g. psh. m +200gr. hw. flour
Question: then I also have to knead the dough 2 times, as well as simply only on Psh. flour?
And I ask because, maybe my question will be clearer, because I read that hw. need dough knead only once

[Tatjanka_1]

Tatjanka_1

if for the whole recipe you take 200 g of rye flour, and the remaining 400 g is wheat flour, then nothing in the technology needs to be changed. Rye flour is best introduced through a dough.

If the amount of all rye flour is only 1/3, then this dough cannot be called rye, the baking technology in this case can not be changed.

You can look at the first page of the topic, there is a version of bread with a dough of 100 g of rye flour + 100 g of whole grain. This, of course, is not quite the same as all 200 g of rye, but very close. I baked it using the same technology.

Success

Zest thanks for the answer, I did just that, and today I read about Hr.dough and I have a doubt (bread and so it turns out delicious).
So I thought, maybe you need to make one batch and it will be even tastier.
thanks, I get it

[tatulya]

Here, in the first posts, a master class on growing a Frenchwoman https://Mcooker-enn.tomathouse.com/in...tion=com_smf&topic=4994.0... If you decide with tatulya grow it, then I can also send a separate file to the mail, to which a link that is no longer working is given in the topic.
Let me know if you take this leaven.

Zest.
I thought it over. Morally matured ...

And yet, my good friend Annushka, who acquired HP about a month ago, but still does not communicate in topics on our website, asks, is it possible to bake on this leaven in HP... Otherwise, she doesn't really want to go and watch the whole process.

Zest, can I also ask for a file? I am already ripe too ... (though I have already killed the rye leaven)

[Zest]

Zest.
I thought it over. Morally matured ...

is it possible to bake on this leaven in HP... Otherwise, she doesn't really want to go and watch the whole process.

Sure you may! Almost all sourdough menus are here https://Mcooker-enn.tomathouse.com/in...option=com_smf&topic=30.0 If you have questions about specific recipes, ask.

Zest, can I also ask for a file? I am already ripe too ... (though I have already killed the rye leaven)

I threw it in a personal

[kava]

I threw it in a personal

kava thanks for the help))
A tatulya threw off too? I can't do it now. On the computer where the file is saved, my Internet is gone. I will repair it. Throw off, please, and tatulya.

In general, girls, the question of the file with Lyudmila's master class was relevant at the moment when the link to Lyudmila's LiveJournal stopped working, and at the beginning of the topic French sourdough the master class was not posted yet Viki on growing French women. Chess word, he is no worse than from Lyudmila. It is wonderful to grow sourdough on it.