Italian sourdough (Levito madre) - cultivation and care

Yes, it's too early to judge. Only the second time I fed her.

Well yes. I didn't understand a little that only the first feeding! Probably read with one eye! After the first feeding, I also threw myself into growth, and then froze ...

I didn't understand something

I meant that it grows well on good flour!

Now I put the ball in the container and chick there with scissors, very convenient!
From today I started to feed twice ...

Hello girls. I just saw the topic. It's very good that we raised her. I have been baking at Levito Madre for only six months, so it is still young with me. Nevertheless, I am very happy with it. I bake mainly wheat-rye bread, but I've tried a lot of things: pizza, white bread, pies and khachapuri. The sourdough is bred on its grapes, immediately after being harvested in mid-September. This is not the first sourdough that I have developed on grapes. And only now it turned out. Many thanks to our Vicky, whose advice I followed after reading the entire branch of starter cultures. My leaven has not lived in the refrigerator during its entire life. She lives with me at 14 graus, I feed her with Italian Manitoba flour every 3-4 days. She lives in a beer glass (conical). The smell is fruity. Once every two weeks, I add a drop of honey to the water and dilute it in 25 grams of water, which I feed the leaven. Before baking, I separate 50 g of sourdough, feed 1: 2, and transfer the rest to 100% and put a dough for bread overnight. The bread is delicious. Not sour. Similar to Stolichny. The most amazing thing is that bread with this sourdough is never sour, even if the dough is too old. I have long wanted to post a recipe, but after some manipulations on our website, I cannot upload a photo
I even get thrown out of my phone, I can't enter the site - "such a user does not exist." I'll try again, it might work.

[Svetlana]

Svetlana, thanks for the useful information, we are waiting for the bread recipe!

[Ksyusha]

Ksyusha, I will try to.

and mine fell off a little before feeding - kiiiislaya

and I translate the rest into 100% and put bread dough for the night.

What is it like? do you put it in the refrigerator?

[Newbie]

Newbie, no. The leaven is in
cool temperature of 17-18 degrees, and the dough and sourdough will spend about 8 hours at this temperature. Then the starter culture will be transferred to another room with a temperature of 13-14 degrees and will spend 3-4 days there until the next feeding and baking. The dough will be mixed with bread dough. Levite Madre leaven should not live in the refrigerator, so that it retains the qualities inherent only to it.

that in the refrigerator, lactic acid bacteria develop worse and, accordingly, less acid accumulates. Well, I decided to try to remove the leaven under these conditions. It won't work, then I'll try in warmth, like all normal people

ferment the dough in the refrigerator before baking.

[Anchic]

Anchic, Anna,

imagine the refrigerator as Antarctica. You can only survive in a fur coat, and even then with reservations. Microbes and yeast, like us, only love the south. They cuckoo in the cold, eat less, barely crawl. Some of them die right away, the strongest move a little bit. They are uncomfortable living in the refrigerator. Microbes like to multiply in warmth, in the refrigerator it may not work.

In the morning, 12 hours later, as usual, in a blue glass with Alekseevskaya, in white with Nordic ... today they are the same in height ... I fed again ...

Well, how not to keep it in the refrigerator, when already 4 hours after feeding it swelled up three times, tonight, when I feed it, it will surely fall off and be a sour. And feed once every 3 days. I don't understand anything anymore.

[Newbie]

Newbie, according to the rules, it is necessary to feed as soon as it begins to fall off. Better yet, just catch this moment when it does not fall yet, but just about. Therefore, I was surprised that the girls feed once every 48 hours. So in the warmth - at least once / twice a day. You can look for a cooler spot in the kitchen. For example, on the floor against an external wall, away from the battery. There the temperature will be slightly lower and the leaven will grow more slowly. But at the same time, it will not yet be Antarctica.
fffuntic, LenaI heard you I just wondered what would happen

Girls! Read Lena's post, super correct and accessible. When I started to study leaven (about 8 years ago), I shoveled a bunch of materials on this issue, so much so that a porridge formed in my head. Then I decided to go empirically and began to grow them, record, observe. There were a lot of starter cultures, some were swept aside right away, some lived longer, but the sourness did not suit me in the fur, or, if there was no sourness, the content, that is, feeding and temperature. But I always thought about Levito and really wanted her. I continued to read about her and looked for information in different sources. An obstacle to her Majesty's breeding was the lack of organic grapes. We planted grapes in the garden and two years later I made my first Levita. (To be continued). I'm running away.

Better yet, just catch this moment when it does not fall yet

well, not to work, take her with you and hoot like a little child

[Svetlana]

Svetlana, I am tormented by only one question - where to get a room with a temperature of +17 and another one with a temperature of +14? In my apartment in winter, depending on the wind, + 23-26, in summer in different ways, but also not lower than +22 usually. And in the refrigerator from +10 at the top on the door to +4 at the bottom. Starter cultures live at +10.

Svetlana, I am tormented by only one question - where to get a room with a temperature of +17 and another one with a temperature of +14? In my apartment in winter, depending on the wind, + 23-26, in summer in different ways, but also not lower than +22 usually. And in the refrigerator from +10 at the top on the door to +4 at the bottom. Starter cultures live at +10.

here !!! such a question has also ripened ...

where to get a room with a temperature of +17 and another one with a temperature of +14?

I also think about it. And summer is just around the corner. Then there is no such temperature anywhere near.

I didn't get Levita out and there are many spots for me in the process.

She lives with me at 14 graus, I feed her with Italian Manitoba flour every 3-4 days.

Why Manitoba? It is a flour with a high gluten content. If the protein is increased, the starch is reduced. And the main food for microorganisms is in starch. Not fatal, of course, but it makes no sense to spend on feeding just manitoba.

[fffuntic]

fffuntic, Thank you!
I had to knead, she was asking for it, but I could not even think that this could be done, all morning in a panic rushed between the cabinet and the refrigerator, but somehow subconsciously decided not to put it in the refrigerator.

here !!! such a question has also ripened ...

Window sill. Much lower there. Especially if you somehow "fenced off" a little bit (not hermetically, of course, put the open part to the window) with something (a box, a cardboard box) a piece of window glass from the rest of the room. Put a thermometer in there and check. It will be more difficult in the summer.

[Anchic]

Anchic, Anna, so who limits you, then I carefully follow all the experiments myself. Theory is one thing, and practice is another.

You won't be spoiled for me. I just read somewhere here (either Lena-Funtik wrote, or Bozhedarka gave a link) that in the refrigerator, sour-milk bacteria develop worse and, accordingly, acid accumulates less.Well, I decided to try to remove the leaven under these conditions.

Everything is much more complicated)). Homofermentative lactic acid bacteria are present in young starters and only developing starters. They only produce lactic acid. Lactic acid does accumulate better in warmth and a thinner consistency. In more mature starter cultures, heteroenzymatic bacteria appear. They produce both lactic and acetic acids. At cooler temperatures and thicker consistencies, it is acetic acid that accumulates. And it would seem that you did the right thing - there are no heteroenzymatic bacteria in the young sourdough, milk does not accumulate (it is cold) and everything should be OK, but! Yeast dies below 8 degrees)). That is, no acids and zero rise too)). Thus, when removing the leaven, you cannot stuff it into the refrigerator - the yeast does not work, there will be no leaven. You stuff the mature sourdough there - the yeast already present will significantly rest (spores will leave, however, as far as I remember), and acetic acid will accumulate. Because vinegar-producing bacteria feel great at this temperature. In this regard, with sourdoughs it is advised not to go below the temperature, which can be called "cool" - the golden mean.

There are three ways to keep gluten in your dough in the draw cycle.

I don’t understand why to keep gluten in the leaven? for me sourdough is associated with a bar of live compressed yeast - just yeast and that's it.

[Newbie]

Newbie,

If the initial amount of sourdough used in bread kneading is a tablespoon, then I agree - there is no point in worrying too much about gluten. And if 200 grams for bread from 400 grams of flour? And you have a quarter of bread flour practically gluten-free - a slurry tainted with acids?

And if 200 grams for bread from 400 grams of flour

Yes, I put 200 g of Levites in my wheat-rye bread. The total weight of flour there is 475 g.

In Levito, they do dances around gluten in every possible way, and this is how it differs from other wheat leavens.

[fffuntic]

fffuntic,

Flax, can gluten go like a "marker"? After all, it does not deteriorate by itself, but almost always - an excess of acid that destroys the gluten chains. Accordingly, such a leaven will spoil the taste of the bread, and its excessive acidity will spoil its quality. That is, the preservation of gluten is a marker of quality, acidity standards. Which, in principle, is quite logical. Liquid sourdough is always highly acidic. Maybe such a principle?

Newbie,
If the initial amount of sourdough used in bread kneading is a tablespoon, then I agree - there is no point in worrying too much about gluten. And if 200 grams for bread from 400 grams of flour? And you have a quarter of bread flour practically gluten-free - a slurry tainted with acids?

And that's right! Well, I climbed into the water, not knowing the ford

maybe gluten goes like a "marker"? After all, it does not deteriorate by itself, but almost always - an excess of acid,

+1

[Lena]

At first I took out a thick Frenchwoman. I really liked the bread on it. She, too, was not sour. But to deduce it - those are still dances with tambourines.

Lena, I think that when the gluten is destroyed, the acidity of the sourdough is increased and this will spoil the bread. Perhaps the balance in the microflora is strongly shifted towards bacteria, which produce acid and then refresh the leaven at least how much, and the bread will turn out sour. I have rye sourdough, but sour bread gives you, whatever you do. It will not sour on the day of baking, but on the second day the sourness will be felt thoroughly. Although I tried to refresh the sourdough several times in order to feed it right at the peak. And put bread on such spoiled leaven. But still sour. As a result, I only bake rye-wheat on it. I don't like this bread without sourness from sourdough.

There is no direct connection with gluten and bacterial composition in any source. Temperature and nutrition are key, not gluten proteins.

Flax, can gluten go like a "marker"?

In, I wrote about the same thing.

[fffuntic]

fffuntic, thank you very much for the clarification!
And what is KMKZ?
Girls, the more I read you, the more flawed I feel

KMKZ - concentrated lactic sour culture according to GOST.

the more I read you, the more flawed I feel

But this is in vain.
Our grandmothers (and Italian ones too), not possessing this theoretical knowledge, baked Bread.
And not bad ones.
By inspiration and instinct.
Nature has given you and us a nose and tongue with taste buds. And eyes.
And that's all. Amen!

[Lena]

Lena, I wrote it clumsily. Gluten depends on acidity, because acid destroys it.

in fact, the information is easy to find on the Internet and in any textbook on baking.

Girls, I'm not being smart here to make someone feel flawed.

no-no-no, your information is useful, analyzed and already systematized, I absorb

[Lena]

Lena, fffuntic, thank you so much for the information!
So, I conclude that my leaven is cold! Again, gluten in the trash, and the leaven itself smells very nice, but sour. That is, the yeast was suppressed by MK bacteria. So banana is not enough to add enough yeast to the starter. And Turkish grapes are not enough! Who has any ideas, how to "shake" the leaven?
Or take the skins of your apples / your dried apples, a little banana for sweetness, perhaps raisins + water, put it for 3-4 days so that the yeast gets stronger, and only then add flour?

fffuntic

Helen

Has returned. I am answering the questions. Temperature 14-17 degrees. -living in a private house. Flour Manitoba - for the purity of the experiment (see the blog of Marianna-aga, et al. About the specifics of Italian flour) Without these two very important components (not counting, of course, organic fruits), I personally did not get this sourdough, in the full sense of this the words. I am not only talking about the lifting power of the sourdough, but mainly about the smell, acidity, in short, organoleptic. This moment is very important for me. Any, I repeat, ANY sourdough can raise the dough, and only Levito can make the dough special. I am by no means claiming the ultimate truth, I am simply expressing my opinion based on reliable sources.

The previous post turned out to be longish (I'm afraid the code will freeze, I will break it). My goal is to bring this leaven under such conditions to Easter baking. You know, I really want to try their "bourgeois" panettone and colombs, as close as possible to the original. Quite a lot of this good was baked on other leavens, and even more so live yeast. I keep the sourdough in a small amount (now already), so I don't need a lot of flour. And for baking bread, I take only 50-60 g from it as a starter for the dough, which I put on Alekseevskaya flour 1 grade, add water and whey from homemade yogurt and put it overnight. In the morning I make dough and bake bread. At the beginning of baking with this sourdough, I took it by 30-45% of the weight of the dough and made a variety of pastries from bread to baking. Industrial yeast has never been added.

[fatinya]

fatinya,

I believe that any well-groomed starter culture makes dough special. In its own way. Because the leavens are unique. I do not understand the desire to make Levito the center of the universe)). Moreover, no one knows what exactly is obtained in our jar and how close it is to the original)). How many bakers - so many combinations of microbes.))

I was, to be honest, based on Hamelman talking about gluten-increased sourdough flour. I trust him. But, perhaps, there is some special case with Levito, here is the baker's business, I do not dispute.

In short, I went, girls. Recently, in the topics on HP, I endlessly out of place somewhere I get in with my info and opinions. Excuse me. I see that nobody needs it.)) Probably, it's time to pause)).

[fatinya]

fatinya, Svetlana, I wish all the paws delicious pastries)))) without regard to identity

[fffuntic]

fffunticI am not going to debate about the "exclusiveness" of my leaven, especially since not a word has been said about it. Your theoretical knowledge gives you the right to reason, and my practical knowledge gives you the leaven that will satisfy me. As I wrote in the post above, "I do not pretend to be the ultimate truth."

[Nata]

Nata, Scarecrow, Hamelman is not quite right about rye flour, I like the Belarusian methods of Sergei and Lyuda more. So maybe it's not so all critical and with strong torment.