Rye bread with leavened wort on dough

Rye bread with leavened wort on dough

Category: Yeast bread

Ingredients
A) In a large container, mix:
Kvass wort concentrate	60 g
Rye flour	100 g
Yeast (I used saf moment)	1 tsp (dimensional)
Water (~ 38-40 degrees C)	150 ml
B) Withstand 4 hours (it is highly desirable to maintain a temperature of ~ 38 deg. C);
C) Put in the container of the bread machine (sequence is important):
Yeast (I used saf moment)	0.5 tsp (dimensional)
Salt	1.5 tsp. (dimensional)
Rye flour	300 g
Mix from stage A) after aging in stage B)
Water	140 ml
Unrefined sunflower oil	2 tbsp. l. (usual)

Cooking method

• 29.08.2010
• Made some modification (the result is in the photo):
• 1) Due to the fact that a larger weight of the loaf was required, the amount of each component was increased by a factor of 4/3, i.e. yeast in total 2 tsp, wort concentrate 80 g, etc .;
• 2) 75% of water is replaced with kefir whey, obtained by boiling kefir over low heat (I had a 10-day one) for 15 minutes. with the subsequent separation of the coagulated protein (thrown onto a sieve); through the use of whey, suppressed the residual aftertaste specific to unfermented rye flour;
• 3) In step A, I used all the liquid and all the yeast;
• 4) I used Saf-Levure yeast.
• The rest is the same.

Time for preparing:

3.5 hours

Cooking program:

"rye"

Note

I have been experimenting with rye flour for a long time, the result was both better and worse. Finally, it seems to have come close to a solution. I estimate the current result ~ 4 +. I'll make a reservation right away that I consider using ingredients such as tea, wheat flour, etc. etc. unacceptable. We are talking about bread made only from rye flour. Naturally, I will continue the search, but today the recipe is as follows (Panasonic SD-255 bread maker)

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[conductor]

conductor , excuse me, but where did you read that salt is put on top of the yeast?

And yet this moment is very annoying:

Withstand 4 hours (it is highly desirable to maintain a temperature of ~ 38 deg. C);

Question: what will happen to the dough?

[conductor]

conductor , excuse me, but where did you read that salt is put on top of the yeast?

As I understand it, based on your profile, you are using the same bread machine as me - Panasonic SD-255. We read page 8 of the user manual, section 2 "Place the measured ingredients ...": "1. Place the dry yeast on the bottom (so that no liquid gets on them later). 2. Cover the yeast with all dry ingredients (flour, sugar, salt, etc.) "

And yet this moment is very annoying:
Question: what will happen to the dough?

And what actually bothers you? Visually, at a given ratio of components, the growth of the dough will occur for 4 hours (confirmed experimentally). From the point of view of the chemistry of the processes: partial enzymatic hydrolysis of starch to dextrose and maltose; partial fermentation of sugars. I do not really understand the reasons for your concern.

[conductor]

conductor, flour is first poured onto the yeast, and then salt and sugar are poured into different corners ... This is specifically for the stove. In general, yeast loves sugar and warm water, but certainly not salt, so contact of yeast with salt is avoided directly.

As for the aging of the dough at t-re 40 degrees for 4 hours, then this is sooo much. During this time and at this temperature, the dough will simply peroxide.

[conductor]

conductor, flour is first poured onto the yeast, and then salt and sugar are poured into different corners ... This is specifically for the stove.In general, yeast loves sugar and warm water, but certainly not salt, so contact of yeast with salt is avoided directly.

So. Let's proceed from the chemical nature of the components used. Are used dry the components are both yeast and salt, therefore there can be no talk of dissociation, since there is no solvent. And it is not the substance as such that affects the process, but the ions. Small amounts of solvent that may arise as a result of condensation will be absorbed by sodium chloride as a substance characterized by significant hygroscopicity (this is certainly not an absolute alcohol, not anhydrous copper sulfate and not sulfuric acid, but still).

As for the aging of the dough at a temperature of 40 degrees for 4 hours, this is sooo much. During this time and at this temperature, the dough will simply peroxide.

Firstly, not 40, but 38 degrees. Rye flour requires an acidic environment - I hope you won't argue with that? Therefore, this step and the parameters of those. process - a conscious decision, confirmed experimentally. There is a good example from radio engineering: it is known that an electronic tube is characterized by a parameter of the so-called "parasitic" capacitance - you can try to minimize it, or you can take it into account in the circuit. It all depends on the approach.

I conducted research, described it, demonstrated the result, and it is your right to use or not use this information.

[conductor]

conductor
SALT

This flavoring component was probably the very first that began to be added to bread. Salt not only gives a pleasant and familiar taste to a person, but also quite strongly influences the formation of the gluten (gluten) framework. Adding salt in a ratio of 1-3% in relation to the amount of flour affects the elasticity of gluten, making it more elastic and stable. In addition, salt is very hygroscopic and allows the dough to retain water. The addition of 2% salt allows you to retain up to 5% water, which increases the yield of products and slows down staling (loss of moisture).
However, an excessive dosage of salt greatly slows down fermentation - salt has an overwhelming effect on yeast. For example, the addition of salt in the amount of 5% in relation to the weight of flour almost threefold reduces the fermentative power of yeast. At the beginning of the kneading, you should carefully avoid contact of the yeast with salt - this will immediately destroy them..
🔗 as one example ...

Blessed is he who believes.
This recipe is about rye flour and where did you find gluten (gluten) here?
This is simply not the case in rye flour.
Discussions about salt and yeast are constantly exaggerated from topic to topic,
is it really difficult to think about it, having before your eyes a working recipe (example),
that somewhere in your beliefs a mistake has crept in.
Yes, and the author, above, reasonably explains what and how it works here and why everything is in order with yeast.
Up to 2% salt in the recipe, write that this is happiness, and after 5% grief.
So counthow much salt is in the recipe?
With 5% salt and above, pickles for salting already begin, and not bread dough.

Made bread according to your recipe. I really liked the result - it turned out exactly the rye bread I wanted.
Thanks for the recipe.

I want to bake your bread in the oven, can you tell us the process?

Made according to the first recipe. I used the leavened wort from the wrong manufacturer. the temperature could not be maintained. the leaven immediately began to come up and I did not quite calculate with the dishes (I had to shift to a larger one). the leaven was mixed several times in the process. loaded into a bread machine (Panasonic 57) in the sequence in which it is written (yeast with salt). As a result, the bun did not work out (the dough was kneaded with a mixer for rye bread and distributed in shape) the bread turned out to be 5-6 cm in height and a very dense crumb. Color and taste like Borodino bread (in Ukraine, this was sold once in the old days).

this is my first try with Rye Bread. I will try again.

If someone will work on the errors, I will be grateful.

Dear conductor,
I am a novice baker and maybe my question is stupid, but how is it easier to maintain a constant temperature of 38 degrees for dough?

Dear conductor,
I'm a novice baker and maybe my question is stupid, but how is it easier to maintain a constant temperature of 38 degrees for dough?

There are many ways to do this:
- put in a warm place, on a kettle, frying pan
- put on a heating pad
- put the container in the oven, multicooker, and so on ...

But to be precise at all, the baker must have in his arsenal several thermometers-thermometers: for dough (dough), a temperature probe (for bread readiness), a thermometer for the oven, and other thermometers with a run-up temperature from 0 to 250-300 * C at least

please tell me, I do not have a "rye bread" mode, but I really want to bake, is it possible to somehow achieve a result in Panasonic sd-256?

I baked your bread, I did everything as described, but the crumb turned out to be wet, the bread did not rise, in the end I threw it away

[conductor]

conductormade your bread. Despite the fact that some of the dough escaped from the container, it turned out to be an excellent blackening rye bread. Now the only question is - is it possible to somehow make it even more sour?

[SonyaIvanova]

SonyaIvanova, some preamble and, in fact, an attempt to answer your question.

Preamble: it has been a year and a half since I gave up baking bread according to this recipe, because what suited me in 2010 did not suit me in 2012-13 (in terms of taste, quality and stability of the result) - everything was not right ... I was lucky to finally get a collection of technological instructions for the production of bakery products (pdf for 1080 pages). I tested it, adapted it for home baking, I even wrote a "Rye bread dough calculator". For a long time I am going to present a full report and conclusions, but I still can't get myself together. I think maybe no one needs it? Okay. In short: completely abandoned the use of baker's yeast (only sourdough, but not the local one), wort concentrate (replaced with malt, but it is possible without it), butter (no need) and bread makers (unsuitable for rye baking temperature regimes, and at the kneading stage there is no particular point in using - you still have to help with your hands).

An attempt to answer the question: I was also very interested in the problem of acidity, and some regularities were found. During the work with the current recipe, it turned out that if you need to increase the acidity, you can:
a) transfer part of the flour and water from the main phase to the dough phase;
b) increase the holding time of the dough (and can be dramatically increased).
But, it should be noted that:
a) with an increase in acidity, the viscosity decreases;
b) with an increase in acidity, the rise time of the dough increases.
Again, the above applies to the process I'm currently working on, but I think these techniques can be used for the old recipe as well.

Wow! I suspected it wouldn't be easy. But you will post the report if you can, it's very interesting. Even before this bread was not ripe right away, you look - I will ripen to the present. What starter do you use?

[SonyaIvanova]

SonyaIvanova, here is a collection of technological instructions:
🔗

The basis was taken "The distribution cycle with the use of dry lactobacterin" (p. 62, printed), played with lactobacterin for 8 months, took the pharmacy for work, but initially knew that in the pharmacy strains L. plantarum or L. fermentum, and according to the instructions collection lactobacterin should be from a mixture of strains L. plantarum-30, L. brevis-5, L. brevis-78. The result was not bad, but the preparation of the starter base was somewhat laborious, so there was a desire to simplify the process. Then I went a simple logical way: I already have a product with a fairly normalized content of lactic acid bacteria and yeast - kefir. Fine! I counted on kefir and adjusted the amount of moisture. And now I'm working with the following option:

Activation phase:
60 g of old (end of shelf life or later) kefir, (10 ^ 7 lacto, 10 ^ 4 yeast, dry c. - at least 9.3%) - not bifido (I don't know how bifido will affect the quality of bread, check I don't want to), I take Prostokvashino
25 g rye flour

We mix in an 800 g can (even special.We do not create conditions - we leave it at room temperature, just put it somewhere higher) and leave it for 14-15 hours;

First phase:
For the first phase according to the recipe - 115 g of flour and 105 g of water. Taking into account the change in the amount of liquid at the activation stage (according to the recipe, the ratio of flour and liquid phase is 25 g: 25 g), we have:
Dry quantity cc. kefir - 5.58 g, we bring to flour moisture (14.5%) - 6.53 g. Subtract from the amount of flour.
Total flour for the first phase - 108, 47 g.
Pure moisture of kefir remains: (60 - 6, 53) = 53.47 g. Excess moisture: 53.47 - 25 = 28.47.
Total water for the first phase: 76.53 g.

Taking into account the spread of flour moisture, kefir values, temperature and holding time, we will round up to whole or even tens - the buffer capacity (in the general sense of the word) is quite large, so flour / water - 108/77 or even 110/80.
Add flour and water to the jar we worked with during the activation phase. Stir until smooth. We leave it there. The exposure time according to my records is from 8 to 23 hours - and the quality is still stable. A characteristic feature - as a result of fermentation, the occupied volume grows to three-quarters of the can.

And then the following (why did we actually need the bank): we select the required amount for the second phase, the rest - in the refrigerator. The amount received is enough for me for 4-5 loaves of bread, ~ 1 kg each, that is, for a month.

Then I give my values ​​for 350 g of the final leaven or ~ 1 kg of bread.

Second phase:

We take 56 g of the first phase sourdough, add 56 g of flour and 29 g of water (water is easier for me on the scales) and knead in a container in which we will eventually knead the bread.
We knead, I usually finish by forming a bun. I do everything with a spoon - my hands are clean. The whole process takes 5-10 minutes. Close with a lid, leave. The exposure time according to my records is from 9 to 23 hours - it is impossible to overexpose, no matter how hard I tried - the end result is the same. A characteristic sign of the end: the bun has turned into a cake, very similar in structure to oatmeal cookies (not in color).

Third phase:

If you follow the instructions: add 124 g flour and 86 g water. We stir, close the lid, and leave. Everything is like in the second phase. About 15 hours, until it ferments and falls slightly. Actually, the ready-made sourdough was obtained here.
Using this leaven, the bread is stable in quality, BUT (for me) is not sour enough. So I recently ran an experiment that turned out to be successful. Kneading the third phase, I immediately add half the flour and water, which are actually used for bread and leave for 36 hours.

Question: I have a mechanical scale with a division of 20 g. I cannot measure 77 g. I won't succeed, therefore?

[SonyaIvanova]

SonyaIvanova, here the thing is ... When we bought a bread maker, we suffered both with the mechanics and with measuring cups ... How much compost went because of this - it's scary to remember.

For example, 🔗 Can't buy? The thing is really, in my opinion, necessary and useful on the farm (not only bread - and jam, and marinade, and to work with standard recipes). Plus, in the light of recent events, an effective investment of ruble cash

In general, there are at least two types of culinary specialists: the first can "taste", "by eye", "to the touch" - and always stable (happy people!); the second - give the numbers. I'm from the second. (I know that if, for example, I take a collection and make it according to the specified specification, it will be edible for sure, and in most cases it will be above average.) So, I'm afraid I can't help with unclear recipes and methods ...

[conductor]

conductor, I realized. I will think about buying. Another question: you described the leaven in the technology. And then proceed with it in the same way as indicated in the recipe itself or also somehow differently?

[Leaven]

And then proceed with it in the same way as indicated in the recipe itself or also somehow differently?

No, not like the recipe. As I already said, I refused to use a bread machine (the temperature regime does not suit me) - I use the oven.
After the third phase is completed - the actual kneading of the dough.

To calculate the required masses of components, I wrote a program, you can take from here - 🔗... The archive actually contains the program and the document, with the current values ​​for which I work. The document can be loaded into the program via the File-> Open menu. Then press the menu item Calculate. The input parameters can be changed directly in the table. I will give an example for a loaf of ~ 1 kg.

Leaven - 350 g (we should get this weight if we did not add flour and water from the dough kneading stage in the third phase)
Flour - 418 g
Fermented rye malt - 10 g (my people like it with malt)
Salt - 10 g
Water - 350 g

I use the flour the Sorcerer, peeled. The actual humidity was never able to be determined. Empirically, I came to the conclusion that it is optimal for us to set it in the calculations at 10%. Maybe the flour is really dry, maybe there is more moisture loss, but this empirical constant gives a satisfactory result for me.

Kneading:
I add flour to the bowl (all or the rest if I used a part in the third phase), malt, salt (you can immediately dissolve in water), water (all or the rest if I used a part in the third phase). I stir with a spoon until a homogeneous dough is obtained. Leisurely. I get 20-25 minutes.
Further. The dough is raised directly in the baking dish (I bought a cheap coated pan for baking Easter cake: diameter - 19 cm, height - 8.5 cm; does a great job, I don't grease with anything, nothing sticks). I transfer the dough from the bowl to the mold (about half the volume is filled), level it, cover it with a lid, and leave it to rise. If in the third phase I did not use flour and water of the main dough (that is, the dough is not sour), it rises, according to my records, from 2 to 4.5 hours, depending on the temperature (it rises even at room temperature). If used, it rises longer (it's too early to talk about specifics - I just did it 3 times), and the last time I had to warm up to 38 degrees. As the dough volume doubled (that is, the form was filled entirely), you can bake.

Bakery products:
Unfortunately, in my oven (judging by the thermometer) the temperature does not rise above 250 degrees (according to the position of the regulator - 270 degrees) - well, that is. I preheat the oven to the maximum temperature (that is, really 250 degrees). I put the form with the dough in the oven. The first 16-17 minutes. withstand at maximum temperature. Then I translate the regulator to 210-220 degrees. (real thermometer - 190-200 degrees). And I stand it for another 44-43 minutes, that is, to make a total of 60 minutes.

Then I take it out in a towel and let it cool down.

The first bread that did not work out, the result is unsatisfactory, although I did everything strictly and one by one. I'll put the "bread" on crackers. I will not use the recipe

The first bread that did not work out, the result is unsatisfactory, although I did everything strictly and one by one. I'll put the "bread" on crackers. I will not use the recipe

Which option did not work: the one in the bread maker, or the one that is given in the discussion (in sourdough, in the oven)?

First, in a bread maker. Bread, apparently did not fit, although, so-called. "mixture A" prepared thoroughly