Sponge functional bread in a bread maker

[Palych]

Come on, Palych, peki! Then a report from you
Svetlana, very good cutter! I think we need to experiment with the modes. On different modes, I have bread according to the same recipe of different heights and different appearance.

Attempt # 2. It seems that she did not deviate from the recipe (except that she left the dough in a bucket, but then put it in a warm oven)

The roof left anyway. Maybe next time I'll try French

[Yulia]

Yulia, excellent result! Here I have just one in French. Isn't there a whole grain or rye regime? It seems to me that there is not enough liquid for your flour. Can I add 10 ml?

Linochka, I added water and a lot. Baking on Dietetic (aka Whole Grain 4h)

[Linadoc]

Linadoc, how are you? I'm with a report.
The roof has failed, I analyze, the water is in order, there are complaints about the last prolonged proofing and the temperature on them ... it fries strongly, gluten can not stand it.
I don't taste very good ... I was not completely delighted with the dough before, its taste reminds me of raw seeds in some way, somehow neutral, dry. And the wife is delighted, she likes it. And already 3 days have passed, and the bread is soft, not crumbly, there is itself on the sly. In the evening you will have to put it again, for your beloved). Moreover, they bought everything as in science and long-boiled oatmeal and semolina, yellow semolina and special kefir. for bread, fresh. I don't think ... the premium flour remained under suspicion, maybe it is weak, since the gluten has not developed or is not elastic enough, can there be more semolina? Or not to lay down rye seedlings? And if you lay down, then in a dough, and not in general. flour when kneading?

[Palych]

Palych, let's make it easier:
- bran into a dough;
- do not overdo it;
- take away 10 ml of water from the dough and 10 ml from the dough (if you do it without replacing part of the flour with rye). If you replace 50 g with rye, but take away only 10 ml from the dough. Apparently, your flour is not very dry.
It's easier than what you piled up there. Now about the taste. Taste and color ...... Matter of habit. But adding rye flour should help with this issue. I would also add fermented malt, then finally it will be super.

[Linadoc]

Linadoc, there is also malt, I put a spoon in regular white bread, I like it. And he didn’t lay down rye flour and everything was heaped up. Flour - possibly on std. 500/300 leaves 280 water, at 300 there is already a puddle below.
In general, I'll try number three in the evening. Now I'm making bread for myself, I'm busy. According to the gostovkom recipe, as always, I rehearsed it for a long time ... this is "safety")

[Galina]

Galina,Linadoc please clarify one point for me.
I almost understood about the benefits of dough on whole grain flour. But when we make the final dough with ordinary flour, there is no long process with the beneficial transformation of a new portion of flour, right? I, as I understand it, because in. from. no matter how much you hold it, it won't get better?
Does it make sense in terms of recovery to use long doughs, if only in the composition. from.?
This is not an idle question. You have to make sweet buns without any useful additives. So I think, is it possible to make them at least a little less harmful by using a long dough?
And if it contains rye flour? Is spicy rye better too?

[Linadoc]

Linadoc, well, much better. But nevertheless, the top is somehow dull, bumpy, although I see it in the pictures of everyone. I took off 10 ml of water everywhere, but the dough was thin, like thick semolina porridge, that is, the surface did not retain its shape, but spread, you have it thicker. Added immediately and 3st. l rye bran (5g, they are light) and then 1 tbsp. l with a slide of white flour. That's when it got right.
I soaked the semolina separately in 100ml of hot water with sugar (there is salt, can I waste it?), As I understand it, the longer you soak it, the better? Well, it certainly won't be worse? Is it hot then? She will cool down anyway. In flour a spoonful of malt, and it is felt. (10g)
Delicious, I also ate on the sly.

[Palych]

Does it make sense in terms of recovery to use long doughs, if only in the composition. from.?

Has, at least the harm is neutralized.

And if it contains rye flour? Is spicy rye better too?

Rye is better than pure wheat. Whole grain rye is better than just rye. Sponge is better than unpaired.
Palych, adjust according to your flour. Remove another 10-20 ml from the dough. See, everyone succeeds in their own way. Someone has to add, someone subtract.

[Linadoc]

Linadoc, I regulate ... and the ratio of kefir and water will not be violated? What does science say about this? Today I will put it like this again at night ...



And, wait, I also wanted to write ... I ground these new oatmeal, cereal on a blender (there is a special cup and a rotating knife, you understand?), About five minutes, and the fraction is large. They turn out to be solid. So they will soften in the dough? Nothing? And I didn't write a new one for semolina ... if it is poured separately with sugar in hotter water and salt can be right there?
I just cooked dough, in the morning I warm it up separately in the oven and then immediately stir it alone for a couple of tens of seconds. So you can immediately see what her condition is. And then water, flour, etc.

[Palych]

the ratio of kefir and water will not be violated?

No, it's just that a certain amount of kefir is needed so that lactic acid bacteria are enough to break down phytic acid.

coarse fraction

Yes, that's the way it should be, that's okay.

niche if it is separately poured in hotter water with sugar and salt can be directly there?

Great if in hot water with sugar. But salt is not needed there. Salt at the very last moment and so that it does not come into contact with the dough until the moment of kneading. I've thought out a sequence, so that a minimum of dishes and body movements, and you sho then be wise



Palych, look, I took a special photo for you. Yesterday I put a dough, replaced 20 g of c / s flour with 25 g of bran, everything else is according to the recipe. The dough is very thick, I even added 10 ml of water:


But today I put it in water with sugar and semolina, you see how thick:



And for the experiment I set it to "Basic", but a large size and a dark crust.



Result: not very good on the "Basic" program. Has not risen much, although the air and pores are large, slightly burnt. The liquid is clearly not enough. If you introduce bran, even after removing the flour, you need to add not 10, but at least 20-25 ml. And yet do it on "Diet" and "Whole Grain".


It will cool down, I will cut it. But the porosity is visible even so.

[Linadoc]

Linadoc, again report. Seems not bad. I did it in French. Thanks for the science

[Linadoc]

Linadoc, you added new comments to your answer ... it's bad that this is not reflected in any way and I did not immediately notice. ((
In general, I put a new portion half an hour ago. That I see, I see, that's why I write that from those proportions a liquid dough is obtained.
The water is now 120 + 50 kefir. Flour tsz 120 and 25 grinded oatmeal + 3 tbsp. l hw. bran, ~ 10 g. And .. well, damn it, liquid !!! Added ~ 20g again. white flour to about the same state as yours. Can I have some kind of fake flour?) In general, it turned out somewhere 1k1, that is, 100% dough.



More. In sl. once I will pour 50 g of water), and then I will add more as I mix it.



And once again I will ask ... for fat ... what is it right in the dough niche? And a lot of it turns out.

[Yulia]

Yulia, yes, in "French" you have the best! Very similar to mine in French. But I tried all the modes, except "Rye", yet "Diet" is the best. Myakish is great, well done!

from those proportions, a liquid dough is obtained.

Well, I don’t understand what you have with flour, why is it liquid? For me, you see, even a little additive in 10 ml turns out. I'd better add 20-25 ml.

fat ...

It depends on which program to bake! If on "Diet" (Wholegrain, Multigrain), then it is normal.If on others - a lot, it is necessary to reduce to 15 g. About "straight into the dough." So the recipe is about what he threw in the HP and went about his business. And if you control all the time, then you can add salt and fat 15 minutes after the start of the kneading.

[Linadoc]

Linadoc, I don't know about flour. What's written on yours? You can "throw" cunningly, it's fat. Stick the pieces on the walls, during the proofing, it slowly melts, flows, falls. Yes, and special. there is a sound signal on the programs for filling additional. ingredients during the second batch.

Here is a cut. Airy, porous, but small.


Still, it is better to do it on "Dietetic". For my flour, the liquid is excellent, but if you replace 20 g with bran, then you need to add.

[Linadoc]

Linadoc, yeah, I did not write the report ... in general, they ate. Looks like your last one. Well, the cap is pretty flat and waves. I performed three obligatory takes strictly according to the recipe.
Yesterday I speculated on the "free" program and on a lower weight, such as probes. c. s more than half.


It's been three years (nondisclosure agreement) and I took this advice. Can you comment?

You are probably 100% c. h. baked. I also do this badly on our flour. I worked well in Finnish, but now it is not on sale.
Therefore, I first make a dough from a strong Altai c. from. (with the addition of cz for better nutrition and fermentation of the dough), and then all the rest of the whole grain into the dough. It turns out a tall bread with a delicate crumb, in which 55% whole grain flour. For a change, I add some crushed seeds, bran, and sometimes kvass wort concentrate for a darker color and smell.
I put a lot less yeast than is customary for bread makers and I think that this is enough. I don't like the smell of yeast in bread. When there is sourdough, I put the dough on sourdough, and add 1/6 tsp to the dough. yeast. I measure them by eye, I drew marks with a felt-tip pen on a measuring spoon. Different yeast behave differently: I am not friends with the Saf-moment at all, I prefer Oetker, he does not fail and the amount is verified specifically for him.
Flour: whole-grain French Thing and some Altai flour. s (Grana, Divinka, Belyaevskaya)
Recipe
total ratio: flour 340g (150g. with +190 c. h.) - liquid 260g (170 water +90 milk)
dough:
flour 150g psh. in. from. (strong with 12g protein) + 20g c. h. flour + yeast 1/5 tsp Dr. Oetker.
water 150g + 20g of live yogurt serum (I have a homemade Symbilact from Vivo, I do it myself)
kneading in a bucket of cotton 10 min, then in the same bucket, covered with a plastic cap
3.5-4 hours at 27-29 * or
1 hour at 27-29 *, and then night (up to a day) in the refrigerator.
dough:
dough warmed up to room. temperature
milk 90g (water is also possible, but I like milk :))
buckwheat honey 15g
salt 2/3 tsp
* kvass wort concentrate 1 tsp
draining. butter 10g
sunflower. neref. oil 1 tsp
flour 170g c. h. + a tiny pinch of ascorbic acid in powder + yeast 1/5 tsp. Dr. Oetker
I mix milk, honey, salt, kks, pour the mixture into the dough, pour flour with yeast on top and switch to mode 2 or Manual. Scheme: kneading 5-7 minutes (only before mixing into a bun), pause 30-40 minutes, kneading 15-20 minutes, raising 50, kneading, proofing 60, baking 70 (short medium). Rast. I slowly pour in oil at the very end of the 2nd batch, it makes the bun smooth and beautiful.
At first I tried it on mode 3. Whole-grain, but the proofing there was too long - 75 minutes, sometimes my bread grew to the top ahead of time, I had to cancel the program and put the Baking forcibly.
Therefore, I loved more from auto modes 2. French, you can take it as a basis, but after the first 5-7 minutes of mixing, I took out the bucket, covered it and left it to rest on the table, and the program went on as usual, and I inserted it after 5 minutes from the beginning of the 2nd batch (when the heating has already stopped there), the remaining minutes of kneading are quite enough, it is important not to stir. And then to 20 minutes of lifting, I added 2 more times for 10 minutes with a Pause. And then everything is according to the program: proofing for 55 minutes and pastries. These are the dances)). Otherwise, the result is not the same.

Can you comment?

All in all, quite a decent recipe.In addition to fermentation of premium flour in dough, and c / s in dough and without sour milk, everything is reasonable. According to the programs - yes, dances with a tambourine are needed. You will find the right program - a decent result, you will not find it - it is tasty and healthy, but not very aesthetically pleasing. You can switch to "manual mode" - bake in a hearth stove, in a cauldron or in a mold. Then everything will be beautiful

[Linadoc]

Linadoc, I put kefir in the dough), according to your recommendations, you have to learn something already. About strong flour ... well, I understand that I don’t have one and extra. threw two st. l semolina T, I understand correctly that it will add the missing percentage of protein, and the amount of protein is the main. indicator of "strength", right? And how to calculate how much to add decoys? There is flour from 10.5, in fact it can be less, but you need to increase it to 16 ... that is, add 100 g of premium flour ... ??? g semolina.
And the stages of the xn program themselves can be programmed in advance, run in a couple of times, correct and that's it.

[Palych]

Palych, I'm talking about something else. I'm talking about the fact that fiber, that is, whole grain flour, is needed in the dough, and just flour in the dough. And in the cited recipe, the opposite is true. And I add semolina to increase the starchy part of the flour, which contributes to more nutrition of the yeast, and, consequently, a greater release of carbon dioxide. This increases the porosity.

[Linadoc]

Linadoc, yeah, on the contrary. Although I read in many recipes c. s on the dough it is recommended to put it on white flour and, moreover, strong. Hamelman has a recipe for 100% c. with flour, although the dough starts at 100ml. water and 100 g semolina semolina, it contains just the most protein, right ?, well, and sourdough.
I want to test your recipe with a new hp. I liked the sponge from the previous funk topic. molded. What is there besides c. s and oatmeal (by the way more of it) and bran and rye or white flour.
Can such a "strengthened set" be applied here as well?

Can such a "strengthened set" be applied here as well?

Can . I did. Only liquid may need to be added. Peks on "Rzhanom", good bread, although rather low. Or still on "Dietetic", then it will turn out high.

[Linadoc]

Linadoc, do not run far, I will soon write a recalculation, and you will simply correct the mistakes so that you do not waste time on me. There is no rye regime, I'll see what she has in French and what is dietary or intact. grain.



In general dough:
water 200
kefir 50
Premium flour (I won't eat rye) 80
Flour c. s 120
Oatmeal 40 (?), But I would reduce
Rye bran 25 (then a lot for me, it's almost 8 tbsp. L)
Yeast dry 1.5 g (half tsp)
Dough: +
water 100 (90)
Semolina 30
Flour high quality 250
Yeast 3g (not full tsp)
Salt, sugar, lard, malt, etc. as calculated.
That is, this is a complete copy of the form funkts. with a decrease of 0.8 times.

[Palych]

Palych, leave the oatmeal 40, normal, bran 15 g is normal. Would you like chicory and malt? It should be. And you could grind flaxseeds, in a brew, 15 g, good for gastritis.

[Linadoc]

Linadoc, meaning bran can be not 25 (24) calculated, but 15. I will be both chicory and malt, they give a pleasant taste and darker color of the crumb.
Tell me something else ... well, this time I'll put the dough "at night", so it will stand for 10 hours on a cool loggia. What if you need to bake bread in one day, faster, then 4-5 hours at room temperature will be enough for her?

[Palych]

Palychdo you want some pulish type? If it is like a pulish, then 4 hours is normal. But autolysis (that is, cold fermentation like bigi) gives a unique taste and aroma, in addition, the benefits will be many times greater.

[Linadoc]

Linadoc, well something like that. Here is how ordinary sponge bread, according to the guest, put the dough and it fits in a warm place for 4 hours, then they immediately kneaded the dough on it. It is clear that the hall. fermentation is their trump card.
And yet ... there are no such developments, what would be used to start the dough on all the water according to the recipe? What would be with DOS. did the dough only have dry ingredients (flour, salt, sugar ...)?
I tried it a couple of times (300m / 300v. In dough, and + 200 flour when ripe), but it turned out badly. Are there any special features?

you want to type

I want to consider all the options.

there are no such developments, what would be used to start the dough on all the water according to the recipe?

I tried it, I didn’t like it, I don’t feel the dough, in the same place a correction is needed back and forth with liquid flour. I tried a lot of things, so I worked for myself what suits me: in the form or HP I like cold dough, in a cauldron - autolysis of dough with dough like traditional Russian. Then taste, and aroma, and crumb, and benefit, and convenience

[Linadoc]

Linadoc,
Mixed the dough, almost a bun gathered with a puddle. Now the hour will stand on the balcony.
And how much do you need to knead such a multi-component dough? Different types of flour, different bran, kefir and water ... 5 minutes? Not less that everything would be mixed and wet. A long batch will not hurt her, if anything?

How much do you need to knead such a multi-component dough?

I didn't time the time. I just stir with a spoon until it is combined into a single mass. No kneading is needed at all. The advantage of a long dough is that everything will have time to "get wet" well and unite.

[Linadoc]

Linadoc, baked ... 6 hours. in French - trash (((, one first batch of 20 minutes and then 90 minutes of proofing and kneading. The last kneading was clearly unnecessary, he did not manage to rise like this for the third time, the yeast ran out of cartridges, as I understand it.
I prepared the dough as before in a bucket of old hp, I wrote above. In the morning everything went up there beautifully, but I could not even reach it with my hands, the gluten strings, it stuck ... in general, I put it on kneading, after 2 minutes a quite decent bun gathered from the dough, the walls of the bucket were almost clean and easily slipped into a new bucket, from Panas.
And what should be the consistency of the dough? Is it not very thick? In the course of Ch. I added two tablespoons of water in the middle ... otherwise the still dry flour was shuffling along the bottom and the addition of lard with salt did not immediately solve it, did not absorb it into the bun.
I had to obey you and put on Diet, there are 5 hours, or on the Main only 4 with a penny ...
Yes, I bought rolled oatmeal today, cook for 20 minutes. I want to take a picture of the grain itself, so that with an experienced eye I would say whether this is suitable.

[Palych]

PalychWell, here I’m saying that I worked out that recipe especially for the forms. Look, everything is shorter there - 2 times for 75 minutes and that's it. Therefore, it is better to do it in forms. And this one is better in HP, it is thinner and lasts longer. Although the "Diet" regimen is still better.

[Linadoc]

Linadoc, well, that's not particularly different. The dough has a lot of useful things, and rye flour and bran, and so on here. threw it, it was liquid, I thickened it, remember? and involuntarily it turned out as for a mold. Moreover, I immediately asked what proportions should be changed and what you recommended I did. I have to get used to the new stove, I don’t worry about it. By the way, I already ate a hump ... well, delicious and healthy.

On my prog "French" itself burst and opened beautifully.

Yes, I forget to ask about this ... in general, like in your photo, the top of the kag would be "cut" and the bump is slightly and the edges of the self-cut are sharp, prickly ... What does this mean? Low on liquid? Or was it too late? Or other reasons, what? Sometimes, according to other recipes, such a roof.
And if, when folding-stretching, it stretches a little and ... immediately breaks, not elastic, then this is why and how to fix it? Little or no gluten developed in flour?

What is this talking about? Low on liquid? Or was it too late? Or other reasons, what?

There was not enough time for the final proofing. There it is necessary to remove the spatula after the second kneading. It is necessary to track when this kneading occurs

if, when folding-stretching, it stretches a little and ... immediately breaks

This happens in mixed dough with a short fermentation time of the sponge and / or dough.

with a short fermentation time of the dough and / or dough.

It turns out that my dough was not ready yet, it was cold at night and "everyone went to bed", not only yeast, but also MKB and the time of proofing was not enough. So?

There it is necessary to remove the spatula after the second kneading.

Oh, that's it.

my dough was not ready yet

Mixed dough has a reduced amount of gluten. You can bypass this by prolonged autolysis, but here it is important not to overexpose.When overexposed or underexposed, gluten breaks down into smaller fragments. Therefore, the "golden mean" of autolysis time is important, when the gluten that exists is in the period of its "longest" polymer stage. When making a dough of the biga type, this is approximately a period of 12-20 hours.

[Linadoc]

Linadoc, in general, I baked bread completely in hp. Similar to Ukrainian. palyanytsya, the same visor, although I did not make an incision.
The gingerbread man was perfect, not sticky, high-spirited, plastic. On the program "dietary". 17 minutes kneading, pause for 3 minutes, then again kneading for 6 minutes and ... fermentation for 74 minutes. He climbed up to the very top, stretched himself beautifully, but then 20 pulsations of the kneading completely "blown away" him. After 40 min. one more hitch, he really did not climb so high during this time, then 50 minutes after. the proofing on which he ate ate grew to half a bucket and kosoboko. After 50 minutes of baking, a "cap" appeared, blown up the roof.
Well, an extra post. wrinkle !!! He lacks spirit for the third time to grow! On the water, I consider the norms, not a little, sales sometimes stuck with a "comma" to the wall. Yeast ... well, I'll reduce it still, to half a teahouse. And you need to remove the scapula. One stroke - the norms, and then all the time for growth.

[Palych]

Palych, it turned out fine! You say correctly: you need to remove the scapula after the first workout. And I advise you to add sugar for 1-2 tsp. more.

it turned out ok

No, now we are finishing up and the crust in the cut piece seems to peel off, it is removed separately, the connection with the crumb disappears. What?
If the dough is under / overstayed, what signs / symptoms will appear in the bread? And for the cracks it is not clear ...
And why do you need more sugar, on what grounds? Peel color - normal (Wed)

Sugar is needed to accelerate yeast multiplication under accelerated cycles in HP. You used the recipe that I worked for the shapes, not the HP, so a lot of correction is needed. I took into account a lot of indicators for working out recipes, it's not just that. And the roof is tearing due to insufficient time for the final proofing.

so a lot of correction is needed.

Can you expect another functional option? With rye and bran.

[Palych]

Palych, you can expect, but not in the near future. This process is not fast and other issues in life have not been canceled