caprice23
Quote: Mandraik Lyudmila
True, I bake everything else on flour of the 1st grade and below ..
I once baked bread on 1st grade flour, which I didn't appreciate. Maybe the recipe itself is not very good chosen. I do not know
And what do you like to bake on grade 1 more than on the highest grade?




Quote: fffuntic
No need for a prescription by mail and PM. They want to know everything.
And I want too
Mandraik Ludmila
Natasha, I struggle with glucose in products in general, I practically don't eat wheat myself, and my husband asks for gray bread, so I bake from whole grain mixed with low varieties, with rye, or generally pure rye
fffuntic
Quote: caprice23
I once baked bread on 1st grade flour, which I didn't appreciate.
wooo, I somehow found my sister, otherwise I sit and keep quiet in the bushes. Also only in. from. love, or rather v. from. with additives.
And all sorts of whole CZ or 1C, fuuuuuuuu
although entirely for 1s - this is considered the most delicious light baked goods, but not for me

Nataliya, I also wanted to write that V. from. Makfa and FSh Extra - heaven and earth.
She's extra weak, so when Luda made mini-bags on her, they turned out to be softer than on your makfa. Extra does not require strong kneading, but on the contrary, a very gentle attitude.
Makfa is a bakery and requires good kneading, which is weaker in HP, if there unplanned less test. Therefore, your baguettes had to be rougher and the crust thicker, there gluten did not develop in strong flour.
In fact, if you make little dough in KhP, you need to take a weaker flour (Ectru, for example), or ... - and this is the best solution with ordinary baking flour -
as Natashik did - to help turn the dough properly during kneading with a spatula.
caprice23
fffuntic, thanks a lot for the clarification, now everything has become a little clearer
Explain more, Extra is a grade or what? That is, I can try to buy any other flour on which Extra is written? Is she also top grade, but not bakery? I still do not understand all types of flour, I can say I do not understand bread before, I have not baked pies and biscuits with cookies, and always only from premium baking flour))




Quote: fffuntic
as Natashik did - to help turn the dough properly during kneading with a spatula.
I only scooped up flour with a spatula, I'm afraid to knead to help, suddenly the kneading knife will jam from my applied efforts, or something will be damaged there. Or maybe I don't really understand how to help?




Quote: fffuntic
Also only in. from. love, or rather v. from. with additives.
And with what additives? I also want to))




Today, by the way, I made croutons using the mamusi method. With salt and garlic. Husband for a sweet soul drank beer
fffuntic
Look. If primitive housewife, then

- there is grain.
He has
1.gluten-gluten-proteins - the most harmful, but also the coolest for bread. The more gluten, the fluffier, but it requires developing this fluffiness, that is, kneading well. Gluten is best at the finest grind.
2. The husk is useful
3. Active substances and oils - very tasty and healthy. These get in the way when baking. They do not allow to keep flour warm and during fermentation they are active and spoil gluten, therefore the more of these useful substances, the more dances with tambourines during storage and fermentation.

It is by the content of these 3 substances that flour differs.
1. If only gluten-gluten-proteins - this is in. from. bakery. It requires kneading, easy to store, the most empty and harmful to the patient's gastrointestinal tract, but the most airy bread. The finest grind.

2. They left a little useful substances and added a little husk. This is already 1st grade.A little more useful.
But the properties have changed. Gluten no longer rules the show, it has roommates and gets in the way. They can weaken strongly, maybe weaker. Therefore, in terms of resistance to loads, it is either as in. from. remains or weakens. But the flavor changes due to additives and coarser grinding.
For the gastrointestinal tract, it is slightly easier c. with., but is also considered heavy. Coarser grind c. from. sharp.

3. A lot of husk and full of useful substances, a little gluten - 2nd grade. Hard to fuzzy and harder to store. But the taste is more and easier for digestion. But the grind is very coarse.

4. CZ - whole ground grain. EVERYTHING is saved. All substances and taste of grain. Largest grind.
But due to the presence oils and a full set of active substances gluten as soon as it sticks out - gets a good pendal.
A special taste, it can be very weak, if the gluten in the grain is initially delicate, during fermentation it can quickly deteriorate, because useful active substances are trying, during storage it can turn rancid.
the most useful for the digestive tract from wheat. With the most pronounced taste and can be extremely weak for CP, cannot withstand strong mechanical stress.

This is the main picture.
But for baking properties, these 4 types began to be modified, adding either gluten or useful substances there.

For example, Extra. Took in. from. strong bakery and removed some of the gluten from there. It turned out weakened in. - an elegant fine grind, empty in composition for the body, but ideal to stick into cakes, sand, and so on in a pastry. In buns without kneading with a low baking, if hunting for a delicate fine-pored crumb.
Will not tighten. It does not need (or rather, even in the absence of kneading, it will not give a rubber or dense crumb) in good kneading, but it will never give such a high fluffy product as in. from. bakery.

General purpose flour, often referred to simply as c. from. A mixture between 1C and c. from. bakery.
That is, the grind is coarser than baking, but softer than 1c, well, there is less gluten and there are already a few substances. This one is allowed for pancakes. When the tenderness of a special crumb is not needed, a high volume is not needed, but the taste of the 1st grade is also not needed. Stronger and rougher extras, but weaker and rougher c. with., stronger and softer than 1 grade. For the gastrointestinal tract, empty as in. with a bakery.






Now with regard to HP.

The more baking, the better it is to take strong flour to rise with a load of butter and sugar.
So in. from. bakery with a high gluten.
This takes the flavor of the additives. Therefore, Easter cakes, buns, bread and butter, milk.

If we want a wheat flavor and a high volume without baking, only by fermentation, ... we need a tastier flour, but also with strong gluten - 1st grade. Or you need to enrich c. from. additives CZ and 1Sort.
This one can wander for a long time, it has its own taste.
But they don't put it in the cake, because it is weaker and rougher in. from.

But remember that the tastier and rougher, the less strong mechanical stirring can withstand. And HP is designed in the main mode for strong flour with strong kneading to obtain high fluffy bread - that is, strong in. from. bakery.

However, we also have a dietary regimen for CH. Which is designed for weaker flour. There you can already poke the central locking system and 1 grade))) There the dough does not sausage as much as on the main one.

Extra is essentially not intended for HP at all. May die with vigorous stirring.
That is, sticking it on the main one is extremely unreasonable technologically, if only on a dietary weaker, or this is how Luda does it, on a very small number of minibags.

As for my preferences: I am ashamed to say: I like butter bread with milk on v. from. I have French with serum and butter
And if the composition is more modest, then it is possible with CH additives, but only with an additive and so that this CH is the freshest


caprice23
fffuntic Lena, thank you, how great you were able to put everything on the shelves !!! It's just stunned, at 12 at night they were not too lazy to roll such an opus !!. Vooot, everything immediately became clearer, otherwise the head is already spinning from all these varieties and types, what and why
Quote: fffuntic
I'm ashamed to say: I love butter bread with milk on v. from.I have French with serum and butter

Here I feel and I am moving in the same direction, this plan will be my favorite bread. But before you stop at something, you have to try a lot of all kinds of recipes, while I'm interested, I'm playing.So they are already thinking, maybe it's time to bake some bread with the addition of rye flour, yesterday I grabbed peeled rye and dry kvass in the store.
fffuntic
Mixed breads from KhP only tolerate dessert. That is, with raisins, prunes and a complex composition, that is, there should be tasty additives: wort, honey, kefir for sourness, butter.
The richer the composition, the tastier.
At the same time, I did not defeat the rye. But with the addition of up to 50 percent to wheat, I can quite make it tasty.
Here's the advice of Ritushi got hooked
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(Elena 65)

Well, behind her there is a tail and I repeat. He likes the gingerbread man at the end with a little daub

Well, there is no mustard oil, so it goes as it is
well, the rest is.
But always with a full composition of wort-kefir-oil. If honey is there, it is even better. Well, what a thread of delicious. There are no dried prunes, ordinary ones are also tasty, like raisins ..
Dessert bread.
For soup I buy rye in the store
mamusi
Quote: caprice23
Today, by the way, I made croutons using the mamusi method. With salt and garlic. Husband for a sweet soul drank beer
Well, very nice to hear!
This is how I use bread (surplus and substandard). If the loaf is large and has not been eaten by the third day ~ always in crackers. And on the table they are in a vase! And with pea soup I LOVE them !! You can not bake bread on this day. And for dinner, Khachapuri, for example. Then nothing will be wasted. No loaves will be big!
Mandraik Ludmila
Quote: mamusi
Khachapuri for dinner, for example.
Ritochka, from this place in more detail, how is it from khachapuri crackers? Teach me, please!
mamusi
No, Luda, not from crackers.
I mean, for lunch ~ croutons for soup. And for dinner, Khachapuri (for example) or any pie, or Pizza. Well, so as not to bake bread.
Right there people complain that surplus Bread is formed. They didn't eat that loaf, but they bake a new one ... Well, I wrote in that spirit.
Something like this.
Mandraik Ludmila
Ah-ah-ah, I realized I just put a dairy, for my mother, let him try and then bake it herself, instead of a purchased roll M-dya I have a black pure rye for five days already, we still can't eat it .. well it does not stale for a long time and that's it time is delicious, somewhere it gets even better with time. But these are the features of pure rye, it is very moist
mamusi
Mandraik Ludmila, Lud,
I am not going to make a purely rye nikpk. Mixed only. Darnitsky love mine.

Do you just whip up cold milk with a French press, or can you also use hot milk?


Mandraik Ludmila
Ritochka,

and hot, I generally put a French press (without a press) in the microwave, heat it up there and then whisk

On the one hand, rye bread is fast - the fastest program, but the most "manual" one, all the time you need to look after and react to the circumstances. Sometimes it is necessary to stand up and turn on the service heating mode, and sometimes it is necessary to finish the proofing earlier and put it on the baking, otherwise the roof will fall. There is only one recipe, but every time it’s like the first time, apparently it even depends on atmospheric pressure
mamusi
Yes, I totally agree. An eye, but an eye is needed.
Mandraik Ludmila
Oh, boys, girls, I had a fit of creativity on this night I did it until 2 o'clock in the morning, what did I do
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In general, I redid the recipe for rolls with cottage cheese, and from one portion I got into such a cinnamon roll roll in Panasica and a whole Wonderful pan of lemon buns

Proportions and actions:
I took 125g of dry cottage cheese, 2 eggs, 1 hour. l. salt and 1 tbsp. l. honey, I punched everything with a blender, got liquid, added 200 ml of whey, mixed it, poured it into HP. On top of 420 g of extra flour of the French thing, I threw 30 g of butter around the edges (I bought butter-vegetable specially for baking), into the hole on the top of the flour slide for 1 hour. l. yeast (pacmaia).
Enabled the "Main test" mode. After 15 minutes of kneading, I added 1 tbsp. l. sunflower oil, non-refined, non-deodorized.
At the end of the program, the test was 2/3 of the bucket, divided it in half. She rolled one half into a rectangular layer, poured it with melted butter, slept with sugar and lemon zest, rolled it into a roll, cut it into pieces and put it in my Miracle and here's the result:
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She rolled the second half in the same way, poured the same with butter, sprinkled with sugar and cinnamon and rolled it back into a roll, put the roll entirely in a bucket without a spatula, as if wrapping a little around the protruding pin so that it would not pierce the dough and oil spilled out. She switched on Panasika to the service heating mode, after 40 minutes she switched on baking.


Now I sit and think whether to draw up a separate recipe or is it still that curd loaf ...
$ vetLana
Mandraik Ludmila, Luda - beauty - what deliciousness you got!
Mirabel
Mandraik Ludmila, Luda! crazy beauty! Bravo!
Mandraik Ludmila
Svetochka, Vikochka, I'm shocked myself, I don't remember such a fluffy dough at home
caprice23
Baked French bread today. By advice fffuntic (thanks for the tip), there are more whey and butter. Mmmmm ... Delight
Truth ran away to work, put on a reprieve for the evening. Naturally I could not follow the kolobok. As a result, the roof is not quite beautiful, the water is too much. But vuuuuuus !!!!! The crumb is awesome, fluffy !!!

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Only now I would like the side crusts to turn out not much thinner. Maybe there is some trick? Does it depend on any ingredients?
Mandraik Ludmila, very beautiful curls! that delicious do not even doubt it. I don't even know what recipe to grab, now I also wanted to bake these




Today I decided to try freezing bread for the first time. I'll see what happens. Hope this is the way for me
Waist
Nataliyawhat a fluffy Frenchie turned out Straight - bun
fffuntic
Nataliya,

nooo ...
wall thickness is also highly dependent on baking. In French setting, the hottest baked goods and therefore the crispest.
After it, according to the strength of the heat, there is a normal regime, and then a dietary one.
Diet is the most delicate of them. Therefore, the crusts there will be thinner, but with baking or with light flour. There, and the batch is weaker.

If on a strong bakery makfa, then the usual mode should be chosen for thinner crusts.
Then there you can improve the kneading - the crusts will also be softer if done with pre-mixing on dumplings, and only then start the program. This will slightly thin the crust in French mode, but less.

The stronger the stirring, the thinner the crust, provided for delicate baking. If you make pre-mixing-mixing on dumplings, then during the standing time the flour will swell well, and kneading by the machine will begin from the first minute of the program. While usually, mixing is done first, then swelling while kneading. On domestic flour, the kneading is weaker.

The great taste of the bread is from the whey. This is a fabulous improver.
Whey can be added up to 20 percent liquid to any recipe as long as it doesn't sour.
French can be done with milk and butter and whey, whatever you like))

And here, if you get just olive oil, you can also get wonderful bread with an Italian flavor
https://Mcooker-enn.tomathouse.com/index.php@option=com_smf&topic=430257.0

Well, if it's just on whey, it will be just delicious.

Now it occurred to me that he could try to pull out in French a little earlier for thin crusts, for 5-7 minutes? but I have not tried this advice as an experiment. For me, crusts are the most delicious

They did just that with dietetic Easter cake so as not to overcook: they interrupted baking five minutes earlier


Thumbelina
Girls, I brought just such flour from Rostov.
I will try.
Protein as much as 14g.

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Mandraik Ludmila
Olga, wow, I wonder, I bought some new "White Tender" (Kursk), so it has only 10g
Wit
Quote: Mandraik Lyudmila
I bought some new "White Tender" (Kursk)
This is not "some new" flour, but very good flour. Especially if you come across a "native" Stary Oskolskaya. ”For some reason, only the Kursk one is brought to us in St. Petersburg. Last week I took three packs in the top 5 of the action.Somewhere above I analyzed this flour here with pictures and indices on the package.




Here they wrote that the risks with numbers are poorly visible on the measuring cup. I found a way out. I put a colored rubber band on the glass and set it on the mark I needed. Now I don't bother
Mandraik Ludmila
Wit, yes, it was in the top five that I took it, I have not seen it before, it is really white and white, just like an extra FS
Thumbelina
Yes, I confirm the same, that this is my beloved, Starooskolskaya, and now I'm trying this, Kuban, I bought it in st. Veshenskaya in five.
caprice23
Quote: fffuntic
For me, crusts are the tastiest
Yes, I also love the crusts, but I would like to just thinner
By the way, in the French mode (and not on the main one as recommended in the instructions) I baked milk bread, that's where I got just the very crust I needed. Why? What role did milk play in this? Or what?
Quote: fffuntic
If on a strong bakery makfa, then the usual mode should be chosen for thinner crusts.
That is, if the same French baked on the main one, the crust will be thinner. Will the bread structure remain the same?

Quote: fffuntic
Then you can improve the kneading there - the crusts will also be softer if done with pre-mixing on dumplings, and only then start the program.
Here I wanted to clarify. If pre-mixing is done on dumplings, and then, at a delayed start (not for a lot of 1,2,3 hours), start the Main program there or the French one, then it will only work with live yeast, with dry yeast? Or is it not an option with dry ones in any case? I mean with pre-mixing.

By the way, yesterday at Pyaterochka I grabbed Belonezhnaya. I'll try. Is she weaker than Macfa or not?
fffuntic
Nataliya,

the French mode imitates baguettes, that is, a coarse, coarse crumb and thick crusty bread crusts. Accumulation of taste by fermentation.
To do this, kneading is weaker, weaker than the main mode, so that gluten does not deteriorate during fermentation, but a longer fermentation, on which the bread reaches its taste and the hottest pastries for crunching crusts.
Therefore, flour of the 1st grade is desirable there, for example, which is tastier, and if in. with., then slightly enriched with baking, whey or additives in. from. or 1 grade.
Moreover, if you make a very rich bun in this mode, it will dry out. The baking setting is too strong.
The stronger the flour in the French setting, the rougher the crust. This is due to the slight development of gluten by design.

Milk shortens, weakens gluten and gives the crumb a fine porosity. Therefore, a weak kneading in the French mode just came up, it made the flour weak. Therefore, in French extra will also give a softer crust.
Therefore, I propose to strengthen the kneading and for strong flour by preliminary kneading on dumplings))) It does not matter which yeast to do it on. If without dancing with tambourines, then you can immediately with yeast, just their amount pick up under an extended time. If you are not lazy, then you can knead without yeast, and throw in the yeast immediately when kneading on the main program. Standing there for half an hour - forty minutes, and without much heating. Nonsense for good yeast.

If you make the same recipe at the same time in French and mainly in a strong domestic v. with., then on the main the crumb will be softer, the porosity is smaller, and the crusts are thinner, the taste is simpler - they will beat me right now with a slipper - more standard

Belonezhnaya used to be slightly weaker than makfa, that is, it would give amazing bread on a French, and on the whole it is beautiful. Or rather, how beautiful. Anyone who likes rubber will not like it. Here the emphasis is on the delicate fine-pored crumb.
But that's how I write. And flour changes from season to season. Makfa, oh, how different it is. And how white and much stronger.

Well, you baked bread and look at the result. He himself will tell you what to change.

Here you have rough crusts - intensify kneading.
You can adjust to any flour in our HP and get wonderful bread by slightly changing the mode or making a couple of additional movements.
Although

Quote: Thumbelina

Girls, I brought such flour from Rostov.
I will try.
Squirrel is already 14g.
I'm looking forward to the results with curiosity.
Somehow it seems to me that there will be very coarse bread with such strong flour. In my opinion there is too much.
But, if you don't like it, then you can always dilute it with ordinary flour.
Here is what. The stronger the flour, the more coarsely porous and elastic crumb you can get on it. Rough to delicate, but firm. The better the batch, the softer, but more elastic.
The weaker the flour, the more delicate and finely porous the crumb. Like this. Strongly rubbery crumb on weak flour cannot be obtained, as well as large ciabatta pores.

The stronger the kneading, the thinner the crust with any flour and the more elegant the crumb, but strong kneading accelerates the degradation of gluten during fermentation, so you need to be careful here.

The stronger the flour, the more water it can absorb - the bread will be higher and with larger pores. And their tenderness will depend on kneading, the taste on fermentation.




Waist
Quote: fffuntic
The stronger the flour, the more water it can absorb - the bread will be higher and with larger pores. And their tenderness will depend on kneading, the taste on fermentation.
Well, it can take more water at once and knead a good dough, and thin-walled pores will give a delicate elastic crumb

Do you remember Lyuda had about soup instead of dough in HP, and she kneaded the dough to normal from the soup consistency. And her bread turned out to be excellent.


SvetaI
Quote: fffuntic
The stronger the flour in the French setting, the rougher the crust. This is due to the slight development of gluten by design.
Ah, so that's why my Frenchman on pure grains turned out to be short, with a rough crust and the roof cracked. Although I replaced half of the water with whey and did a pre-batch. The grains are very strong, although the protein content is not particularly impressive. I get wonderful rolls on it, but they are dough and knead in a dough mixer. Probably, in order for a good Frenchman to turn out a good Frenchman, you need to turn on the pre-mix right for all 20 minutes, and I do it only until the flour is wet - about 5 minutes. And more water
caprice23
fffuntic, you are my savior !!! Explain once again for those who are in the tank: D the head cooks something bad by the evening, you can have a moment with pre-mixing again. Sorry for the importunity
If I make a pre-batch on dumplings now without yeast (are all the ingredients without yeast?), And then set, for example, the main mode for the morning with a delay and naturally fill the yeast in advance (right after kneading on dumplings), will it work?
Or is it possible to fill in everything at once and the yeast is dry, knead on dumplings and then with a delay until the morning Main mode?




Quote: fffuntic
If without dancing with tambourines, then you can immediately with yeast, just pick up their amount for an extended time.
My God, how to pick it up?
Mandraik Ludmila
Quote: caprice23
in general, fill everything up at once and the yeast is dry, knead on dumplings and then with a delay until the morning Main mode?
no-no-no yeast should not be left for so long - the dough may turn acidic. Well, now Lena will come, she will explain everything clearly
caprice23
Waiting waiting




Quote: Wit
How complicated it is !!!!!!!!
Well, you have to get confused on something
$ vetLana
caprice23, Natasha, look at these topics and recipes. Girls recently suggested to me about autolysis. It's here

Cabbage pies # 1912

Look at Omela recipes
Bread makers Panasonic SD-2500, SD-2501, SD-2502, SD-2510, SD-2511, SD-2512 ... (4)Bork. "Whey Bread with Delayed Start"
(Omela)
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caprice23
$ vetLana, thanks, I'll go study.
$ vetLana
Quote: caprice23
Or is it possible to fill in everything at once and the yeast is dry, knead on dumplings and then with a delay until the morning Main mode?
My last bread was mixed from v. s., 1s and c. z. (planned low-yeast). In the evening, I kneaded all the ingredients on dumplings for 5 minutes. I put the bucket in the hall. In the morning I put the bucket in the HP and turned on the low-yeast mode. After the batch, they cut out the e-mail. ... She put the bucket AGAIN in the hall. Mentally said goodbye to bread. El was not there 6 hours. When they gave me the email, I put the bucket in the HP, turned on the Main Fast After kneading and standing for a short time, turned off HP. I waited for the bread to rise and turned on the baking. Surprisingly, the bread turned out delicious and rose well.




Quote: Mandraik Ludmila
no-no-no yeast should not be left for so long - the dough may acidify
Luda, you can and even need to improve the taste. Read the links that I gave Natasha.
-------------------------------------------------
Here is what Sveta Svetlenki wrote to me in one recipe (I think it will be useful to many):
$ vetLana, Light, if you get carried away with bread, everything will be in order in your head and you yourself will come to the dough, or you will choose between dough and autolysis to your taste. But, in my opinion, (and it is not for nothing that it is present in many bakery recipes) dough significantly improves the aroma of bread. The pulp with autolysis works great, but to get the flavor out of the flour - dough, cold fermentation ...
Waist
I invite everyone to get acquainted with the work of our Vitaly

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fffuntic
primitive housewife style.


Mixed flour with water. She went to swell as long as she needed, in different ways. From half an hour to as much as 3 hours and it happens
At this time, a miracle happens there - a very hard lump of thick rubber threads - gluten - is formed from proteins when combined with water.

If you leave it like that and then just bake, there will be a very hard sole, rubbery for a bite.
This is how we make the dough for dumplings. Knead, let it swell, that is, wait until gluten forms, then cut and cook. And there they get a dense unleavened dough.

But if this dumpling dough is kneaded and saturated with gas, that is, well, like in chewing gum, these rubber threads are made thin, and there is a lot of air between them, then we will get bread: an elegant 3D frame made of thin threads of gluten with air, and the meat on them will be soft wet swollen starch (well, you know - a delicate jelly substance - a delicate crumb on fine or coarse gluten)
The consistency and crumb of the bread will depend on how much you wet your flour (or rather, how much it is capable of swelling - the strongest of all) and then you knead and stretch the gluten threads. You stretch them mechanically with handles and chemically with yeast breathing. Yeast gives off a gas that stretches and inflates the gluten framework.

That is, here is the process of forming bread.
The flour swelled, gluten was formed, then it was caked, thinned, made tender and blown up with gas, baked.
The stronger the flour is able to get wet and give gluten, the higher the bread can be stretched and lifted. The more fibrous you can get bread from the finest, finest gluten.
Weak flour also has a thin graceful gluten after kneading and swelling, but not as elastic. This is a softer rubber band initially. Less stretchable and easy to tear. This is reflected on the bite as very inelastic.
Unmixed gluten-free bread is coarse rubbery threads. But the stronger the gum, the more rubbery it bites.
Well, from here you understand why only kneaded bread can have a thin crust. The crust is the bread stretching first of all. The tighter it is, the thinner and more graceful it is.
Let's go further.
So, we wetted the flour and put the yeast in there.
Yeast begins to eat and breathe. Breathing - develops gluten, tightens. When eaten, the yeast changes the composition of the dough, adds gas and all sorts of products of its vital activity, which are important for a completely separate - parallel process in bread: the accumulation of its taste.

Parallel the physical structuring itself is an accumulation of taste. This is a completely independent process.
The flour contains bacteria that begin to live and their waste products add new substances to bread, all kinds of useful and unhealthy acids. It is the work of bacteria that we owe to the taste of our bread.
The bacteria begin to live individually. Some of them die at once, some survive. The type of survivors will depend on the temperature of the surrounding dough, on sterility, on the amount of gas for breathing, on the nutrients in the dough, which they receive, including from the waste products of the yeast.
The accumulation of taste is the longest process because bacteria are very slow substances. You need at least 4 hours to minimum giving flavor to bread. That is why it is impossible to get delicious yeast bread in 2 hours.
The longer the tasty bacteria work, the tastier the bread.

It would seem, well, let the bread wander for at least a week, BUT

always another separate parallel process is launched in the test - destructive.
These are all sorts of active substances in flour + putrefactive bacteria trying to destroy the resulting gluten and saturate the dough with the waste products of putrefactive bacteria. This last process is tried in every possible way to extinguish. It cannot be completely stopped, which is why, over time, any dough dies.

Therefore, I return to our rams.

Can you leave the dough warm with yeast for a long time?
and reason for yourself:
- as soon as you put the yeast in, it began to breathe and stretch - develop gluten and accumulate its waste products in the dough. It feeds everything !!!! bacteria that secrete acids and change the taste of bread, but at the same time the active substances in the flour are bad !! bacteria spoil the bread.
- secondly, the yeast needs to breathe and eat, if there are a lot of them or they sit in one place for too long, they will devour everything around them and suffocate. Therefore, the bread is crushed so that the yeast gets new nutrition and breath.
thirdly, the specificity of taste will be formed depending on the temperature of the dough. The type of bacteria that will survive. Bread is sour in the cold than in the warmth, because acidic bacteria survive in the cold.
- in the fourth, the destructive process does not sleep. Putrefactive bacteria and active substances will try to take everything into their own hands and kill the dough.

the most deadly is the last point. Heat and lack of oxygen, the initial dirt in the flour, the presence in it of its own destructive active substances, the very ones that are so useful in the cereal plant, dead yeast - all this contributes to the strengthening of this process.

If you just knead the dough and leave it in a warm room in the summer, it will easily rot, because the destructive process wins.
Therefore, they are struggling with this phenomenon in every possible way.

Therefore, in order to accumulate taste, humanity contrives in every possible way. It tries to lengthen fermentation and muffle destruction.
To do this, it puts the dough into the cold for a long time, it first makes the dough in a special way so that the taste accumulates there, and then makes the main dough. That is, all these dances are to accumulate taste without destroying the dough, to make bad bacteria and substances sit and not rock the boat for as long as possible.

Therefore, what does bread with yeast mean without kneading in the heat)))
And the fact that in the warmth and in the absence of oxygen - that is, kneading, harmful bacteria and active chemicals love to develop.
But their intensity will depend on the primary conditions. The more sterile and empty the flour, the longer it will stand.
And if you try to leave the central lock in this way, the result may be disastrous.

Then, depending on how much yeast you put in and how quickly they gobble up everything around them and begin to die. The process is accelerated in warmth.
Or they will quickly accumulate excessive gas and tear the gluten in your flour into rags before you have time to knead and release the excess gas.
Therefore, if the recipe is home-grown and does not take into account the characteristics of your flour and the strength of your yeast, then the result is unpredictable.

It may or may not work.
Then sanitary safety is also in question. How much there you have accumulated harmful acids in bread, FIG knows.

Technologists work out recipes and fermentation time from all scientific aspects, including the usefulness.

When I propose to make a pre-batch on dumplings with a programmed stand for half an hour or an hour in the heat, this is one thing. This is too short a time for irreversible harmful processes to occur in the test, and then the professional HP program takes matters into its own hands.

And to advise to leave for a day - I'm not a technologist. You do this at your own peril and risk.I do not presume to judge the new recipe, there is not enough competence.
If I feel the urge to make a long bread, I will look at the recipes on the classic dough, or choose fermentation in the cold. In general, I will look in the direction of professional techniques, it seems safer to me.

I am not a technologist, I cannot check out every new recipe from all sides.





Why do we pre-mix dumplings?
pre-mixing on dumplings makes sense only on domestic flour, which has the peculiarity of swelling for a long time, that is, the proteins absorb water, but gluten is still not formed. And then the KP program kneads the clay, and does not knead the gluten.

Special bourgeois flour for HP forms gluten instantly and pre-mixing on dumplings is absolutely pointless.
But on domestic flour such as makfa, in these half an hour gluten is formed from proteins and HP will knead it, as planned by the engineers.

As I wrote above, in especially neglected cases, our flour is generally good for about an hour to stand up to swell.
Kneading involves stretching a tight elastic band of gluten. And if it's not there at all, there is no point in interfering ahead of time




Che .. I'll add more. That's when they write "suitable for HP" on a packet of flour - it means that any pre-mixes are meaningless. I mean, I'm talking about what you like to call "autolysis".
There, they mixed it with water - bang right away in a matter of minutes - and from proteins the maximum amount of gluten and you can immediately start kneading.
And we need to give time for swelling to our usual flour, which is slow. Which takes time to form a gluten-gum, which must be kneaded only when it has already formed.

And when we put ordinary flour in HP, the machine begins to mix the clay from the water with proteins. She finished kneading - and there is still only a little gluten. It continues to form, but no one kneads it, only the yeast is a little bit, and their strength is not enough, and the output turns out to be rough bread and dense thick crusts.
... Under-mixed bread made from weak flour is still tender, but from strong flour it is rougher.






How to solve the problem with the amount of yeast? and with kneading and autolysis?
yes in practice.
We make test baking and see the result.
Too loose, stinks of yeast, strange taste - we reduce the yeast. Too coarse crumb - intensify kneading. Empty taste, we improve the flour for tasty substances with baking or more tasty flour, whey and choose a longer fermentation mode.
Practice and analysis of the result. We are working on one recipe and sorting it out.

caprice23
fffuntic, oooh, how much information !!! Now I’ll snatch time at work, I’ll read everything, study it, take note of it. Thank you very much for wasting your time on me

In the meantime, I'll tell you about my yesterday's adventures. Answer Lena, only saw today, yesterday without waiting, I decided to create myself.
I stuffed everything into HP. The ingredients are:
400 g Sun Makfa flour
0.5 tsp saf-moment yeast
100 ml serum
250 ml milk
1 tsp salt
1 tsp Sahara
I switched it on by pre-mixing on dumplings for about 7 minutes. The gingerbread man turned out to be rather watery as it seemed to me, but decided to leave it. I did this at 21.00. and put it on a snooze at 5.50 am, Basic mode.
In the morning I jumped up on the alarm clock and was afraid that the bread was not baked. There was no scent of bread in the room at all, although usually the smell was throughout the apartment. I already decided that the electricity was turned off at night and the program was reset. I was upset, I go downstairs to the kitchen, it seems like it smells a bit of bread, but just barely. I think, well, that's it, some kind of garbage is baked, I open it, I take it out, the bread is beautiful, with a convex roof, but not at all high, half a bucket high. Weight 600 grams. Set to cool, barely waited. I cut it, kind of porous, beautiful, but heavy.
Bread makers Panasonic SD-2500, SD-2501, SD-2502, SD-2510, SD-2511, SD-2512 ... (4)
Bread makers Panasonic SD-2500, SD-2501, SD-2502, SD-2510, SD-2511, SD-2512 ... (4)
What did I do wrong? Did you put in a little yeast? (I was afraid to put the standard amount) And why was there no smell?
Andreevna
caprice23,
Natasha, 350 ml of liquid per 400 g of flour is a lot. For 500 g, if the flour is dry, then normal, but not for 400. At the end of the batch, there probably did not smell like a bun.
caprice23
Oh, maybe 250? I scored a measuring cup from HB on the top mark, I don't remember how many there is. But not complete. It looked like a bun, but not very dense. It was not a liquid dough.
Waist
A measuring cup from our HP, at the large top mark - 300 ml. The uppermost small mark is 310 ml.

I use 290 ml of whey per 400 g of flour in my bread, and great! Although they frankly wrote to me that there is a LOT for such an amount of flour, they wrote in theory, but in practice it turns out differently.
caprice23
So I filled in 250.
What then is the reason?
Waist
Nataliya, my dry yeast does not withstand the whole process, if you start with pre-mixing... By the end, they do not peroxide, but simply do not work as expected. I use live / pressed yeast.
You need to try and understand your products in different applications.
Maybe your yeast activity has already decreased by the end and they have not raised the bread to the required level. Although the bread is generally good.

caprice23
Waist, Svetlana gave me the links above to the Omela recipes, there on dry yeast with pre-mixing with a delay for the morning. And everything works out. Only there, 1 tsp is taken for the same volume of products. yeast, and I took 0.5 for some reason. Maybe because of this?
Waist
Quote: caprice23
Only there, 1 tsp is taken for the same volume of products. yeast, and I took 0.5 for some reason.
And, well, this is probably the case, just the yeast was not enough to raise the bread to the desired one.
mamusi
Quote: Wit
Here they wrote that the risks with numbers are poorly visible on the measuring cup. I found a way out. I put a colored rubber band on the glass and set it on the mark I needed. Now I don't bother
caprice23
Quote: Waist
And, well, this is probably the case, just the yeast was not enough to raise the bread to the desired
Why, it is not clear now, but where did the smell go?
mamusi
Quote: caprice23
where did the smell go?
Yes, you never know where?)))
Weathered ... Your bread is normal. Absolutely normal. Both outside and inside. In my opinion
caprice23
Quote: mamusi

Yes, you never know where?)))
Weathered ... Your bread is normal. Absolutely normal. Both outside and inside. In my opinion
No, the smell is exactly when baking. There was no smell at all, only near the stove. Usually the whole house smells




I was confused, I just like to put everything on the shelves for myself, to get to the bottom of the truth




mamusiwhen you can call me

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