Bread maker Moulinex OW240E30

Well, hypothetically.

If you take any sourdough, there is a bunch of yeast that fight and kill each other. It’s there to support the strongest, to feed them well so that they kill the opponents - then these strongest will turn out to be of the same type - bakers.
In fact, they do this in production. The strongest are selected, well fed so that they are at the peak of their health and strength, and they are packed for sale.
Their other brethren are simply weaker physically.

Thus, the sourdough simply contains more different types of yeast along with "thermophilic bakery", and that's what ... the higher the lifting force of the sourdough, the more of these "terrible mutants" it contains
Historically, domestic leavens are based on the cultivation of lactic acid bacteria in them, which give tasty bread at temperatures below those that yeast likes.

And so it is in nature that lactic acid bacteria are the strongest of all, as baker's yeast is stronger than the rest. Over the centuries.
First, it is putrid fermentation that begins, and harmful creatures develop along with MC bacteria. But each type of bacteria and germ loves its food and its temperatures. It is necessary to feed and heat exactly the MC bacterium, which is done when breeding the leaven. First, the leaven is placed in conditions that help bacteria survive, then they win and destroy the enemy harmful to us.
Leaven is born from the putrefactive mass.
Historically, we support in battle exactly the type of MC bacteria that loves relatively low temperatures for life and flavoring bread than yeast.
Therefore, it was believed that the yeast is special there, like it also loves cold. In fact, the yeast there is ordinary and in the warmth raise bread much better, but the taste suffers due to the boycott of bacteria, and the wine is attributed to yeast, such as they do not like heat either.

And any sourdough simply provides a long fermentation of bread, which is not heavy on the stomach. Normal yeast of all types with a predominance of baker's at the peak of the sourdough strength + μ bacteria of various types with their useful waste products for the body.

if it were that simple.

I put the sour milk with bacteria and here's the leaven for you.
And there it is not so. The whole dough must be fermented. It's a chemical reaction. There must be enough live acids for them to change structure and time. Many of these acids are not persistent, the bacteria released them, they worked and that's it ... no acid.
Then the bacteria love to fight. First, instead of doing useful work, they figure out who and how much to whom, first they kill each other badly, and the rest begin to work normally.
In general .. ce la vie. It is necessary directly so that the necessary colony of bacteria develops in the dough and works comfortably there. Only native aborigines work
You just can't stick it in. Well, or you need to add ready-made healthy dough - this is the leaven)))
And whey ... well, it is a very diluted weak composition in comparison with the leaven. It is, of course, an enhancer. Better something than nothing))))

Delicious bread ..

it is always a long fermentation or the addition of ready-made already concentrated dough with "working natives"
Yeast is hot on the side. They are only helpers to bacteria; to get awesome taste, bacteria MC acids are needed.
Yeast is only loosening and helping bacteria.

A parody of leaven - dough. When preparing the primary dough, where hardworking aborigines are accumulated, but there the growing time and their number are less than a concentrated settlement in sourdoughs.
Opara is our everything historically.Allows you to get a long fermentation without unnecessary dancing around the bowl.
But leaven is the coolest concentrate of bacteria.

[fffuntic]

fffuntic, Lena,
I, too, am a supporter of science, not religion in such matters, however, science also exists under control, and not by itself.
I have a book published in the USSR, it is called "THERMOPHILIC YEAST". It's time to open it and study it.
Until then, try # 5 from New York Rye Bread:

Of course, it was not without amateur performance:
- Wheat flour 350 g,
- Peeled rye flour 135 g, and not 150 g as in the recipe, since
- Fermented rye malt - 13 g (not in the recipe)
- Refined corn oil - 1 tbsp. l. incomplete (not in the recipe)
- Water - 270 ml + 50 ml for dissolving malt = 320 ml, not 290 ml as in the recipe
- Salt 1 tsp.
- Flax seeds - 1 tsp. - instead of caraway seeds from the recipe
- Sour cream - 1 tbsp. l. (like the author - instead of yogurt)
- Dry yeast - 1 tsp.
The program is still the same - "French", as it is longer than "Rye"; "size" - 1 kg, crust - medium.
Weight = 720 grams.
For the first time - WITHOUT sugar. The taste, of course, is inferior to previous attempts. All the same, 1 tsp. yeast is probably not enough.
The gingerbread man after the end of the batch was hard, what should be done in such cases? if you just add water, then re-mixing (with the oven off-on) again takes 25 minutes.
But the top crust turned out to be right. This bread tastes to me like rye "bricks" of the early 80s, 16 kopecks each; some residents of Ukrainian villages then bought his whole string bag of 6 loaves for 1 ruble and fed them to pigs, in general - almost the taste of childhood. I like.

[walexyz]

walexyzThere is no thermophobic or thermophilic baker's yeast, this is nonsense of Internet dropouts. There is Saccharomyces yeast, period! Both those and others and in a pack and in leaven and in the air we breathe. The forum discussed the stop a hundred times!
🔗Bakery_ yeast
🔗Yeast

and in the middle only for a short time and not higher than 98 - on average.

From the book "Technology of bakery production-2014"

Microbiological processes. Life activity
microflora of the dough (yeast cells and acid
bacteria) in the process of heating the dough piece
first intensifies, and then completely stops
shits.
Yeast cells accelerate the fermentation process and
to a maximum when warming up to about
40 C. When the temperature rises to 50 C due to death
of yeast cells, gas formation completely stops.
Vital activity of acid-forming microflora
dough depending on the temperature optimum (for me
zophilic bacteria 35 С, and for thermophilic bacteria - 48–
54 C) in the process of warming up is first forced, and then,
after reaching the temperature above the optimum, the
it stops and at 60 C it completely stops. Thermophilic
lactic acid bacteria such as Lactobacillus delD
brüeckii can be active while
at temperatures 75–80 C.

[likbez]

likbez, Vadim, do not confuse "thermophilic" bacteria and yeast in the textbook and this concept on the Internet.
the textbook indicates the highest tolerance threshold for a cell at 54 degrees. This is a scientific fact and the very notion "thermophilic" is a common everyday and fearless one.
In the internet, this concept is given a different meaning: that yeast survives peacefully on baked goods and continues to live in the human body, bringing harm to it. Moreover, these are just those that are on sale in stores, and in wonderful leavens - old healthy yeast.

Then you should not look at textbooks of old years. Then there were no modern fairy tales, people calmly consumed bread in the store and the fact that 99% of yeast dies during baking suited everyone.
When the general mass psychosis began, some of the foreign scientists approached this issue more seriously, I already forgot who .. but some of the masters of bakery, and yes .. the fact that life is not easy to kill is recognized by the scientific world. But there is nothing mystical in this, as I have already crucified for a long time above. This has been observed for centuries.This is natural and does not change what we know about yeast.
Moreover, yeast in sourdough survives so little, but for some reason everyone prefers to keep silent about this in horror stories)))
Due to the uneven short-term heat in the thickness of the bread, some individuals manage not to die, although they crawl out half-dead.



likbez, Vadim, if the bun is dense, you could pull it out and drop the water in the handles drop by drop and knead it a little.
The taste does not depend on yeast))) looseness depends on them. If you not suits the airiness of the crumb - increase moisture and yeast.
Taste - I’m already above the treatises of katala - the work of bacteria in your dough, the chemical composition of your flour. And about sugar ... why did you remove it if you taste better with sugar?
Do not want sugar, there is honey, molasses, glucose))) they are less sweet, and the same delicious sugar for animals in the dough.
Modern flour is depleted in sugar, which is needed to feed microorganisms.
Therefore, completely removing sugar is not quite the right solution for taste.
Then there is more fat in sour cream than MCB, so whey or yogurt would give more taste with such a mixed composition, and you can fill them up as much as you like - so that you don't feel sour.

[Lena]

Lena,
we will return sugar, maybe not 1 tbsp. l., and 0.5. salt oddly enough 1 tsp. with a top is also not enough (and this is a sea one).
about sour cream - it is not yet clear that there was 15% sour cream in the glass. I forgot to write that I still added 1 more tbsp. l. refined corn oil. But how to pull it out and knead it if there is no "pause" button in the HP?

[likbez]

likbez, are the settings saved when the stove is unplugged? All stoves should have this function.

[Galina]

Galina,

settings are saved on shutdown

yes, according to the instructions up to 10 minutes. that is, to unplug the cord from the socket, quickly knead the water with your hands and return it back, turn it on?

Technical topic: modes, settings, operating features, temperatures, how to use, how tight, comparison with other models, etc.
Well, why are all the above-written opuses here ??? There are separate sections on yeast, dough, flour and help if something didn't work out ... and there is a whole separate subforum for recipes for models !!!
At last, post the instructions, a photo of the stove itself, the insides, the bucket, the control panel. I'm just sure that there is stitching and pause and protection, you can correct and calibrate the tempera. sensor ... 20 programs !!!!!! I have a programmable one, possibly cooler, but there are only 15. Tell us about your hp! Topic about this .... but for now, another "attempt √105" with vinigrette))

[Galina]

Galina, yes, according to the instructions up to 10 minutes. that is, to unplug the cord from the socket, quickly knead the water with your hands and return it back, turn it on?

Well yes.
In 10 minutes you can reach the Canadian border, and you can knead the dough five times during this time. :-)
By the way, it is not at all necessary to dilute the bun with water, you can stir in a spoonful of sour cream, tomato paste, honey, etc. I, for example, initially knead the dough without r. oil and add it at the end of the batch if the bun comes out too steep.

likbez,
1. Once you bought a stove with 20 programs, now you need to understand the peculiarities of at least those that will become permanent with you. And choose yourself these permanent
2. Work out a bun for your oven, which will give you the best bread

No soda, vinegar, flax, rye flour, malt, sour cream, cheese, meat, sausage ... only water / premium flour / salt / sugar / yeast. Everything is normal.

No soda, vinegar, flax, rye flour, malt, sour cream, cheese, meat, sausage ... only water / premium flour / salt / sugar / yeast. Everything is normal.

I will definitely try such a minimalistic recipe, but I can't believe that we will like it without rye malt.

[likbez]

likbez, everyone tells you, make at once a kind of dough, ordinary, standard bread, and then you can gradually introduce other ingredients, change the proportions and everything will be clearly visible. In the meantime, the poke method, there is nothing to catch on, nothing to push off from.... And study your stove ... Test its modes. My heating turned on even when kneading and right up to 47 ° C and gluten naturally suffered, the sauna yeast and at the end of the proofing the dough fell off (roof), stopped.



And the malt is not just added, but brewed with boiling water, infused with spices (coriander, caraway seeds), I did it all right in HP.



Read on, discussing a similar topic.
https://Mcooker-enn.tomathouse.com/index.php@option=com_smf&topic=473099.100

And malt is not just added, but brewed

that is how I brewed it, only in a mug, and after cooling down - in a bucket, where there is already water and oil. I will study the stove, and much deeper than it is written in the instructions in 20 languages ​​in parallel.

[likbez]

likbez, ok, then study, translate, protest and write everything in this topic. And according to recipes - below is the section, which is called "recipes for bread machine models". Good luck.
https://Mcooker-enn.tomathouse.com/index.php@option=com_smf&board=499.0
https://Mcooker-enn.tomathouse.com/index.php@option=com_smf&action=recipe;b=499;start=96

[Palych]

Palych,
Thank you. but something completely blinded me - I don't find such a section on the start page; there is "The simplest bread (according to the models of bread makers)", but it does not have our model, there are other mules.

[likbez]

likbez, O_o_o, you are lucky and your model has not yet been described and you can become the Author and curator of a new topic about it. That and in any case, all recipes are almost suitable for any model, they are all built on the same principle. Stirrer - paddle, heating element for heating and a removable bucket. There is nothing cosmic and secret. It's like looking at a gas station for gasoline for a Lada or a Moskvich.))), Yes, they are different cars, but they drive according to the same laws of physics.

you can become the author and curator of a new topic about her.

it adds more enthusiasm. the truth is - you won't be able to compete with fans of Panasonic.

It was like the first time I baked into xn breads according to a standard recipe, I almost got drunk with delight), then I got used to the oven and Borodino and gray and lazy and pink (Hungarian with paprika) and and and ... and even Irish "volcanic "on soda (without yeast), you are experimenting, BUT WHILE SINTER BASIC !!!



Here, so you haven’t come to my "experiments" yet, young)), but as a "starshak" I advise you to learn the "alphabet", the multiplication table, otherwise you will go straight to the differential. equations swung. Everything is gradual, from simple to complex.
https://Mcooker-enn.tomathouse.com/index.php@option=com_smf&topic=510483.420

Yes, I see that the owners of the bread machine are not as smooth as they would like (((So I will continue. I just can’t understand what I’m doing wrong: even on a light crust it turns out dark. On the middle one I tried to bake somehow - It turns out very dark. And on the dark one I didn't even risk it, I'm afraid it would burn. So the question is: Am I doing something wrong or do I need to go to the workshop? ...

even on a light crust, it turns out to be dark

do not overuse sugar in the recipe?

yeah .. either the dough is too sweet, or baked. If it is baking, try pulling it out a few minutes earlier. Maybe start 10 minutes early? it is necessary to follow the baking. In about 30 minutes it’s already tracked.

If the bread is "baked" or burns due to "sugar abuse", then this is a clear jamb of the bread machine, because setting the crust color and size of the loaf should regulate the baking temperature and not bring it to a too dark crust.
Once, out of inexperience, I fried a little cake and since then I have clearly learned what all these settings are for. :-)

The temperature sensor regulates the temperature at which the heating elements are turned on / off, and does not keep track of how many spoons of sugar its owner put into the dough. A simple minute check, even with a primitive "oven" thermometer, can unequivocally answer this question, perhaps a malfunction of the automation, it is possible that with a recipe, perhaps stars, magnetic storms, phases of the moon ...)

questions are asked very vaguely. Either the same recipe does not work in one mode, or all the breads burn everywhere.

well, it's clear that something is wrong if all the bread is on fire. But here it is for an amateur, immediately run to repair or adapt.

Well, there are no characteristics of the stove (no one has seriously investigated). Therefore, one can only focus on a vague alien single experience here, that nothing burns there.
And there maybe it overheats on proofers, but how can you guess?

[fffuntic]

fffuntic, you need to throw the tarot cards or look into the crystal ball ... So, I am writing for the fifth time.What are the real parameters in the operation of your stove? Program timings, temperatures, control features, etc.

[Palych]

Palych, Igor, I'm a guest here, I have a Panasonic, and we have studied it in the tail and in the mane.
Timings and temperatures are certainly needed and everyone understands that then the picture would be clearer.
However, they are not here and there are few people, and people do not have tools and no one warned people that CP will still have to be measured, and they bake bread.
Maybe someone will do all the timings when opportunity will appear. But for now, yes, you must at least throw Tarot cards, if they are, but use your HP, adapt to it, and not put it in the far corner with fright.

[fffuntic]

fffuntic, Lena,

Maybe someone will do all the timings

I'm ready to do it, just need a sample or a methodology.

yeah .. either the dough is too sweet, or baked. If it is baking, try pulling it out a few minutes earlier. Maybe start 10 minutes early? it is necessary to follow the baking. In about 30 minutes it’s already tracked.

Oh my God! About the fact that you can pull out the bread earlier, I didn't even have a thought !!!! But you can so easily try to solve the problem! As for the sweet dough - I don't think so, because on any recipe the crust is much darker than the declared one and thicker than we would like. Thank you very much for the idea! I'll try and unsubscribe later

[fffuntic]

1. Of all the ovens, Panasonic is the most studied. But besides, there the dog was eaten due to defects from HP. Therefore, although there is another stove, it does not interfere with poking around. There are a lot of people there, a lot of tricks for baking.
And how to pull out earlier, and how to knead, and what to add - it would be good to consult there. There are always a lot of people and a lot of experience. The crumb of bread will tell you where the defect comes from. According to the recipe, the correct amount of yeast is estimated. They will give advice on the parameters of the program, and then you will correct it for your stove.

There are also a lot of things in topics just about bread, but in panasik everything is applied to HP. It seems to me that this is more relevant for us.

2.

fffuntic, LenaI am ready to do, just need a sample or a methodology.

Igor has already shown Temka where they studied the car
https://Mcooker-enn.tomathouse.com/index.php@option=com_smf&topic=473099.100

BUT, of course, I like more how they design and study for my beloved Panasik. Neatly in the form of a plate and separate technical topics.
https://Mcooker-enn.tomathouse.com/index.php@option=com_smf&topic=104691.40

I would like to make the same plate for your stove. Just add the temperature there your tena at every stage.

That is the sign: Each parameter is very important. Both duration and temperature. The visual intensity of the kneading makes it possible to check out the strength of the impact on the dough during kneading.

You can also stick in the ingredients - measure their temperature at the beginning and end of the batch.
So it will become clear how much the dough heats up during kneading in each mode (you can designate the "temperature gradient during kneading" on the plate)
A plate, for example, in Excel is convenient.
regime name
1. the duration of the kneading 1a., Check out the intensity of rotation visually and indicate the gradient - 1b, (heating during kneading is absolute by the tenu (temperature of the tena)) - 1c.
[i] The temperature of the ten does not reflect the full energy in the batch. Therefore, it would be good for kneading three parameters - duration, dough heating gradient, temperature of the ten itself. [/ I]
2. First fermentation - 2a. the duration of fermentation before the first kneading - 2b. the temperature of this fermentation
3.first workout time duration
4. second fermentation - 4a. duration and 4b. temperature of the second fermentation.
5.second workout time duration
6. final proofing - 6а. duration and 6b. temperature.
7. Baking - if you can measure it too 7a. baking temperature and 7b. duration in each mode.

-------------
you can do this when you bake bread. Just for a minute, nose into the oven with a thermometer. Before that, the thermometer must be shoved into warm water, at about 20 degrees, in order to measure fermentation. There, degrees from 25 to 35 can be somewhere.
And if you measure baked goods, then in boiling water, otherwise a chilled thermometer can react for a long time.

Turn off the machine in the process and check how long it keeps the program in memory.



Ta-Mila, but in general, if it always bakes, the ten is too hot - this is a malfunction. It's another matter whether you decide to drag the car for repairs or will you use dances with a tambourine.
You can also try to make more wet bread. Such bread requires a higher temperature for baking, and perhaps this will also improve the result.

Before this, the thermometer must be shoved into warm water

as soon as the pyrometer arrives from China, I will immediately make a plate. + I will also connect it through a wattmeter - we will find out how much electricity goes to 1 loaf. Well, in parallel, you can take pictures of all the stages of the process, otherwise the previous time she for some reason forgot to do the batch. that is - after half an hour of sound effects, the contents of the bucket remained intact; strange, since it does not matter which side to insert the bucket there, and you cannot insert it completely, since the lid will not close. but the fact remains that the mixer stood still.

Good day, dear forum users. I haven't visited the forum for a long time, since almost 7 years ago I became the owner of HP Bork. And I had no problems with her, both with white and black Khl5b, and with the dough, but her term was out, before NG she said goodbye to me. The price for it is now 27 thousand, as for a washing machine. So the issue with Bork was closed.
And on NG, my husband gave me a Mulya. And while I'm upset, I can't get the classic white bread, which has always been wonderful in Bork (260 ml of water, tsp salt, tbsp sugar, 1 tbsp sunflower oil, 400 grams of flour, 6 gram of yeast). The lid is not just down, it has failed! Hell on both 4 and 8 programs, there is no difference! Well, the crust is oak, of course.
On program 10, I baked Ukrainian bread from a mixture of Pudov, baked perfectly.
How did this recipe not please this HP?
Tell me who gets it, a proven recipe for ordinary, no frills, white bread, with which Moulinex is friends!

[Korella]

Korella,
Since your machine has character, it's not about the recipe. We need to deal with the bun in this machine and the optimal amount of yeast for it.
Follow the entire process, starting with the kolobok. Pay particular attention to the fact that the dough does not overheat during the kneading process, not higher than 28 degrees in the middle, but better in general 26. Check before baking that there is no overstretching.
It is also stated in the instructions: the main mode is 3 hours. Therefore, you need to watch modes that are similar in duration in the cartoon to those that you liked in the boring, it is better to make the choice towards long programs, that is, at least 3 hours in duration, the longer the better, and work out your favorite recipe there.
In the topic, no one fully figured out these questions, well, or did not unsubscribe.

Thank you very much for your reply. )
Well, I kind of assume that since I am not the first owner of this model, that others have already picked up some algorithm and proportions during this time so that the bread will work out.
The fact is that in the thick colorful instructions attached to the HP, there is simply no recipe for simple white bread for program 4. That is, it is assumed that the owner knows it. )
At one time, when we bought Bork (it was cheaper than Panasonic then), many also said that the stove was a misunderstanding and baked badly (the instruction was also a curve with unsuccessful recipes). However, the very first recipe from Panasonic came up perfectly, and she generally kneaded the dough perfectly (with two rises, and here, as I understood, one).
Okay, let's remember the basics and get used to each other.

[Korella]

Korella

well, you should understand that in the bork everything started at 3 hours of the cycle. It's also full of shortened programs. That said, 20 minutes less in the bread cycle is just an eternity.
Shortened programs are not just shortened, they are more intense, that is, they heat up more, they knead harder. Shortened programs require a heavy meal of 12 protein.Or you should try to strengthen the weak one from the 10th. This is a completely separate conversation, complex, how to adapt weak flour to hot, unsuitable modes for it. The semolina is used, but it is necessary that the semolina swell, otherwise it can simply hang as a load.

Having studied your instructions, there is no more information on your typewriter, I saw that most of the programs there are barely 3 hours in cycle time. According to the instructions (I hope nothing is mixed up there, check the time parameters in practice in a typewriter, in the instructions, in my opinion, the names of the slegonets are mixed up), only two programs 7 and 9 look decent in time in my eyes, that is, like in other machines the main programs ... 7-3.20 and baking for 40 minutes, and the 9th 3.40 and baking 55 minutes .. Bread crust can differ dramatically. There is a 15 minute difference in baking. 7th program Sweet bread, usually on sweet dough they make weaker baked goods, softer than the crust. Therefore, I believe that the 9th will give exactly the crisper crust. They have the same kneading time, the longest among the modes.

In general, I would begin to work out your favorite bork recipe on the 9th program. It is long, I believe it is close to yours, and therefore promises to be delicious on our domestic flour. Knead cool so that the dough does not overheat while kneading. The temperature of the dough during the kneading process should not exceed 28 degrees for domestic flour with protein not higher than 10 - otherwise you will have a collapsed roof and a spoiled crumb.
Make sure that the machine is kneading the dough for you, and not driving a lump over the bucket, only by the end of the batch there should be a soft bun, without smearing under the spatula. Start with the soft option. He is the most gentle. Perhaps the machine will cope well with the task of soft wet dough on a long-term basis.
Well, make sure that there is no overgrowth. She, too, will kill you bread. Yeast needs to be adjusted, although I quite like the amount in the recipe. but practice is practice.

You wrote that you had a thick crust and a collapsed roof. And this is unmixed bread with dead gluten. You need to follow each step, the moisture = yeast balance was totally disturbed, but on the other hand, you worked on shorter programs. There, the flour could die immediately from overload.

Thank you very much for such a detailed analysis! For me, everything you wrote is just a brain explosion.
Since I am not capable of such an analysis (although, it seems, I still caught the essence) today I just tried to add flour, taking 440 grams instead of 400. And you know, the appearance of the bread has improved significantly. The lid is, of course, knocked down, but already by only half a centimeter.
The gingerbread man also seemed good. Many people say that the corners are not mixed, everything was clean here.
Now I will try to use your analysis in further grinding me and HP and experiment. Thank you!!!

[suit.]

1

What is there to analyze. Imagine a machine just like a kneader or your handles. Here you have poured flour with water and you need to knead. First, we have porridge in a saucepan, but as it is kneaded, it should begin to peel off from the hands and walls of the dish, turn into a bun. Imagine that the machine is your pens. Here she kneads mash, kneads - and at the end a soft bun, without smearing under the shoulder blade.
Only with pens you would knead as much as necessary to the kolobok, but in a typewriter you are limited in time. This consistency should be set so that by the end of the batch it is already kneaded. All wisdom.
What kind of impurities did they write about on wheat bread? impurities - this is the first sign of awful !!! tight dry dough with a lack of moisture. Therefore, you do not need him
On the contrary, you need to extract the maximum from the machine its capabilities for kneading soft dough. Soft dough is the most delicate crumb. You can make it thicker, but it will be heavier bread, less fluffy. You don’t even need to consider impurities with bread-bricks

You can admire the kneading. The dough turns over like a living thing, bends, and then the beauty - a bun at the end. It can be softer, rougher.Not at all tacky or slightly tacky. But only at the end))) And the softer the bun is, the fluffier the bread, provided that the machine does not screw up the process. On shorter programs, a tender kolobok is not always possible. There often a bun should be straight bun, sufficiently elastic and non-sticky. Because everything is shortened there, and for a wet dough, gentle, slow baking is necessary.

Also, the machine has strong handles and so that it does not tear the dough into a rag for you, it must be given chilled to it.

2. It is hard to draw conclusions only from the description, there is no photo and the conclusions are incomplete.
The roof is better, and the crumb is nice, tender, rough, crumbly? like?
is the looseness uniform? or at the top of the cavity?
Are the crusts thick, thin?

the roof usually falls if the machine cannot handle wet dough. This coincides with your actions: you added flour, that is, you kneaded it thicker, reduced the humidity - the roof became better. An even decrease in humidity suggests itself if all other parameters of you suit.
Does it really need such low humidity on a long mode? Or is everything on the accelerated work?

No, I still torment the 4th mode, which is supposedly intended for baking classic white bread. It's 3 hours 2 minutes.
The crumb is not bad, there are no cavities at the top. The crusts are thick, even on the palest setting, but everyone is complaining about this, apparently, a feature of this model.
Now I will "finish" mode 4 by adjusting the amount of flour, and go to 9 with my old recipe to start over.
Well, the program "yeast dough" for 1 hour and 9 minutes is also alarming, of course.

[half an hour-hour in the refrigerator]

The crusts are not a feature of the model, but a feature of the regime, or rather the flour is not for bread makers. It does not fit well with the European stove regime. The oven is designed for their flour.
Since you are on the 4th mode, then try a little differently, not to increase the flour, but to try your favorite initial version, but with a pre-mix.

Thick crusts are only for two reasons:
- overdrying on baking
- or because the cycle is short, there is little gluten development. The mix is ​​insufficient. On a long-term basis, the gluten itself would have developed, but here it does not have time.

So, I'm leaning towards poor gluten development. Have you watched the kneading process? Did you knead the dough right up to the last moment? Did this happen with moisture reduction?

Do not be lazy, try to do an experiment with pre-mixing. Take your recipe and just mix the ingredients, soak well, get the first wet dough. You can skip the yeast first (add it to the main batch). Leave it on half an hour-hour in the refrigerator... And only then send it to the main program, well, put the yeast there too. If you poke the yeast in afterward, do not leave it naked. Mix with a little flour, that is, add in flour dust, as in clothes))), this keeps them from stress.
in fact, you can not even steam at all, but immediately knead with yeast Yeast-free well a little bit it will swell better)))
Why is this?
We need to improve the dough kneading. Kneading - developing gluten to thin the crust and improve crumb. There are two points:
1. I offered to check that not a minute of kneading was wasted: track the bun, so that it turns over in layers and kneads the dough until the last minute.
2. I suggest + improve the dough for kneading. Allow the flour to swell completely, form more gluten before the main batch. And then during kneading, you should again make sure that the dough is kneaded until the last minute, diluted with some water, if it is very cool after swelling. With pre-mix, start right away with your favorite recipe.
I believe your torment long swells and therefore on the main batch not normal kneading took place. As a result, the roof then fell off on excessively wet dough.
Now, if you let it swell and knead well before the main batch, it may work well even without reducing the water.
Additionally, if possible:
add non-acid whey (sour milk) to the dough so that it tastes normal to you. - most tasty improving option in accelerated modes.

Or do not do all these dances, but just find flour with protein from 12, preferably foreign, fast swelling, and the problem of crusts and bad roofs will go away by itself.

Kind time of the day.
So we got one. There are a lot of questions, we solve it as we receive it)))
The first two loaves of the classic recipes, good tasty, but with the notorious thick crust.
In the process of experiments, I stopped at this recipe:
1. Increased the amount of liquid 120g of milk mixed with 210g of water = 330g
2. I add 1 tbsp to this solution. l sand (also reduced) + 1.5 tsp. salt +2 tbsp. l. vegetable oil. And I mix it all well right in a measuring glass and pour it into a bucket.
3. I fall asleep 450g flour (instead of 500) and 1.5 hours on top. l. yeast.
4. I cook on the 4th program (classic bread) 750g. 10 minutes before the end, I turn off the HP, but I do not take it out and I give the bread to sweat for these 10 minutes without heating.
5. After 10 minutes I put the bread on a damp towel, wrap it and so it cools.

Summary.
The bread becomes airy and the crust leaves, becomes soft




Yesterday I had my first experience with rye bread. You can eat it, the taste is more or less, but it's kind of damp, not baked at first glance, or maybe it is. I cooked on the program. Rye bread.
A question for experts. I added liquid rye malt extract. How does the amount of extract compare to the amount of dry malt? After all, the recipes indicate dry malt?

Dry fermented red malt, as well as liquid extract, or their substitute, concentrated kvass wort, have only a gustatory and aromatic load. Also gives a dark color. These ingredients in bread can be varied to your taste, bread is not critical to their quantity.
Here is the malt topic, there are examples of almost all substitutions, and Tanya (Admin) advises there
Malt, malt preparations - use in bakery

Thanks for the consultation, but I understand that malt still affects fermentation



Another question about rye bread. I made the proportions of flour: 150 rye + 250 wheat. Firstly, I want to make 50/50, and secondly, does it make sense to pre-mix both flours into one mass?
And yet, I found such a recipe on the u-tube. All ingredients are close to the classic recipe, but regular milk is used as the liquid. Dry yeast is pre-mixed in milk and then this mixture is poured into a bucket for flour. It seems like I read here that milk cannot be poured more than half of the total amount of liquid, that is, a maximum of 50/50 with water.

[Serhio]

Serhio,
Why rummage through the Internet when we bake it entirely on milk and take the rye part with wheat in various proportions. True, the bun in your car may have to be made a little drier than Panasik's, at least on the 4th program.
Panasonic SD-2501. Rye-wheat bread with milk.

everything affects bread, it is alive. But some ingredients are crucial, while others are not so noticeable. Fermented malt in any form, that is, already inanimate, and roasted, evaporated, and so on, you can vary according to your own taste, people bake without it at all.
Unfermented malt, which is very active, you don't seem to use it in bread. Your extract is also already killed)))) Although there are diastatic, that is, live active extracts and non-fermented malt, and it is no longer possible to write about them that they do not have a strong effect.
In your case, your hands should not tremble when you put malt / extract - an already finished non-living product, you will put it in bread to taste.

Not everyone likes dry yeast immediately in water / milk. They can die and will give a taste and smell in bread, or even raise it badly. It is necessary to act according to the manufacturer's requirements. If you want it straight into milk, look for yeast that will withstand such actions without consequences.
Do I need to mix two flours? Only practice is your answer. If your CP mixes itself perfectly, then you can not make unnecessary movements, and if the distribution of flour in the finished bread is not uniform, then it is better to help the oven first.I would write that pre-mixing will never be superfluous))))))
If you are sifting flour, and this is always useful for aerating bread and removing excess impurities in flour, then sift together)))))
What makes you think that milk cannot be completely put into bread? Yes please. Just crumb on milk, milk-water, water is different. Well, to taste. The more milk there is, the finer and softer the pores in the wheat portion of the bread.
Chabattuda, it is extremely difficult to make on milk, big holes are needed there, no one will recommend whole milk for a large-porous crumb.
There is only a kolobok rule, which must be observed with ANY liquid. Whether it be water or milk, you will get a bun of the desired consistency for your machine, according to the composition of the dough.
And milk in any quantity is better to temper or take sterilized, stewed and so on. Pasteurized does not roll, it is alive. That is, processed in a certain temperature regime for the wheat part of bread. Live milk contains substances that reduce flour gluten, that is, reduce the volume of bread and give crumb crumbling. After heat treatment, not boiling, but tempering, look at the questions on milk, how best to prepare it, if you don't want to take it already ready, they become inactive.
Another issue is that adding more than 40 percent rye flour to bread can produce heavy and overly moist bread. This is the influence of rye flour. Depends on the characteristics of the purchased rye flour. There are also such cases. Complex rye flour is curbed only by an acidic environment. And there is no question of her in the recipe. And it seems like your flour did not let you down, you put more of it, so I just write the last one for your information)))))

The flour mixing issue came up when I was watching the mixing process. Wheat in itself is already in a kolobok, and rye is also in itself - liquid below.
I use super-pasteurized milk (long-lasting), as I understand it is dead. It is not necessary to mix yeast in milk, I just saw it.
And the rye bread that I baked still seems to me not quite rye, in the form we are used to. Therefore, there is a question of increasing the proportion of rye flour in proportion. Or can you add the flavor with malt?

Therefore, there is a question of increasing the proportion of rye flour in proportion. Or can you add the flavor with malt?

Malt changes great even pure rye bread, it turns out straight Borodino-Borodino, savory, vigorous. Just rye, no malt, completely different in taste and appearance.

The only question is how much malt to put

The only question is how much malt to put

Look for recipes, try on to your tastes. I put at the rate of 1 tablespoon for each glass of flour, but I usually brew it according to the rules (pour boiling water, add 10-15% flour and keep it for 6 hours at 75 g).

but I usually brew it according to the rules

But I have something concentrate (i.e. concentrated). I read on the can that the optimal dose is 3-5% of the flour mass. It turns out for 450-500gr. you need about 20g. This is a tablespoon. I think I can add another one for color-taste

[Serhio]

Serhio,

1. Yes, at least add half a can. Taste the dough, do not get poisoned))) Or you can knead bread into 50g of flour, completely without yeast and bake this little bun in a matter of minutes. Taste different amounts of malt and leave whatever flavor suits you. The finished bread will be fluffier, softer, and so on .. but you can quite choose the concentration of malt in a thick kolobok as you like it)))))
Your concentrate will not do anything for you bread. The bacteria and yeast in the dough will simply get an extra tasty treat. If you just shove half a can, then yes, in the joys of gluttony, yeast can ferment cheerfully and stronger. We'll have to reduce their number a little. But this is if you just shove half a can. And if your unfortunate extra spoon, then never take the problem into your head.
2. I used a rough term in relation to milk.It retains all the beneficial substances, but there are no bacteria that are in pasteurized and cheese. I don’t share the prejudice about sterilized milk without left-handed additives. Since these bacteria work in sour milk, then in ordinary non-acidic, in general, the absence of these same bacteria is not particularly critical. Especially if the milk is intended to be heated afterwards. Anyway, when heated, these bacteria are destroyed by us. This is not fermented baked milk with kefir

Therefore sterilized initially high quality milk remains that way. But when heated, the structure of the milk changes slightly, the best way for flour. It must be boiled manually several times and allowed to cool in a thermos for a long time. Slow. If I'm not mistaken even in a thermos. But here I can and confuse what, I myself take sterilized, I myself do not perform complex operations on milk.

3. About the taste of bread. Well, I can distinguish between rye flour and malt flavor. Try with rye without malt, with malt, whole wheat with malt and draw your own conclusions. Fortunately, HP allows you to do this quickly and with convenience. By the way, you can knead and immediately bake Malipuski-bread on a spoonful of flour without yeast and try. The error in taste will of course be worse, the crumb is worse, but you can easily catch the difference.
4. If you still decide to increase the proportion of rye flour, then for confident success you need an acidic environment in the recipe. The best is concentrated lactic acid, therefore the best medium for all tastes is whey, even better - leaven... The rest of the sour milk leaves its own taste, that is, already for an amateur. Rye bread is a separate world, it is difficult to give general advice. If you like any specific recipe, then bring it here for criticism

Pay attention to this recipe,
Rye-wheat bread "Westphalian Passion"
honey, whey + malt = a winning combination for breads with a strong rye flavor. Nothing better can be thought of if you need to quickly. Only long-term fermentation and leavening are cooler.

There are quick recipes with vinegar that taste a little rougher. But only an acidic environment tames rye flour, if it turns out to be "harmful" for you, that is, it will give an extremely sticky crumb in the finished bread, with standard non-acidic baking.

Hello ! I bought a Moulinex OW240E30 bread maker and registered for the first thing. I read reviews about this bread maker and was upset at first. But as the saying goes, the eyes are afraid, but the hands do. I baked my first bread. The first bread was baked white, I had it like a dough. Everything worked out . After reading the recipes for different bread makers, I chose several and adjusted them to my own, almost all recipes are suitable, the main thing is to follow the sequence of bookmarking products and see what kind of bun turns out and adjust it as needed. The crust turns out to be good, I don't cut the bread right away, it rests a little more under the towel. And at the end of the instructions for the bread maker there is a table of cycles, according to it you can approximately calculate how much time it takes to stir, rise, etc. If you need to lengthen the time for raising the dough or standing, then I simply turn off the program for 7 minutes, (this model has memory for this time). So it's okay for now. I baked - classic white, wheat-rye, rye with herbs, bread from several types of flour, sweet bread, bread from whole grain flour, I also made yogurt. I want to bake a cake, but here I have to pick up a recipe, so everything is still ahead.