Question to the pros about yeast dough

Svetik, unfortunately, the quality of the flour cannot be determined by the type of bag! What Bijou described, speaks of the freshness of the flour, that is, it is from this year's grain, not ripe. This is the scourge of all bakers. We must be patient And let her rest. There is an option to add dry gluten when kneading.

Thanks for the tip. Now I will pay attention to the date of packing.

Yes, Svetul, you're right. Although this is the basic recipe for bread. It tastes like ordinary bread. All other ingredients are flavoring enhancers.

No, Light, you need the date of YOU, not the date of packing. Although the packing date can of course be a rough guideline

Somehow I got hooked on this poppy roll ... One of these days I will try to bake dough according to my recipe and with my own recipe for making the filling, I will report back later.

Tanya, there is no expiration date on the flour packages, now I checked it - it was filled with "08/17/15.-1" and so on 2 times. I have never met the word "vyboy" on packs! I'll also look at the cloth price tag on the bag in the super.

Thinking out loud. No offense.
How can the pros give such an alignment for baking ordinary bread. Okay, the proportions of liquid and flour, this is controversial, but for half a kilo of flour 15 grams of yeast ... I bake for 5 grams, it turns out wonderful bread, but for baking, yes - I take exactly that amount of yeast.

speaks of the freshness of flour, that is, it is from this year's grain, not ripe. This is the scourge of all bakers. We must be patient And let her rest.

Wow! Thanks I'll know.
But I have no time to lay it down - the moth will certainly start. ((Therefore, I still use it in bread, I already have a little left. fodder soft wheat is mixed, or something ... ((

How can the pros give such an alignment for baking ordinary bread.

This is not a bread recipe! This is a test kolobok generally accepted in production. Well, this is the test. Which, under predetermined temperature-time conditions, should give a result that falls into some of the technological gradations. Based on the position in some pivot table, there will be an indication of how to optimize the process. This test has nothing in common with real bread baking.
I'm not a baker-technologist, of course, but this is what the situation looks like.

[Bijou]

Bijou, I just realized that this is not a recipe for us, not for the masses.
I was just struck by the amount of yeast, even for a test. What is there to try and the penguin understands that the dough will grow ...

What is there to try, a no brainer that the dough will grow ...

The hedgehog may be understandable, but the penguin does not, nothing from bad flour with a low gluten content except mold will grow, but if you get good bread according to this recipe, then it will come with 5 grams. yeast will be good

No, I don't want bread made from flour with bad gluten and 15 grams of yeast.

[Always the same]

I was just struck by the amount of yeast, even for a test. What is there to try and the penguin understands that the dough will grow ...

Always the same will increase? Any gluten-fat-sugar? I am ashamed to say such elementary things, but for this they exaggerate - it turns out something like a larger graduation. And on small quantities, the difference will be smaller. Not?
We will say all sorts of nonsense, here Dance, laugh at us.

[Dance]

Svetik, unfortunately, the quality of the flour cannot be determined by the type of bag! What Bijou described, speaks of the freshness of the flour, that is, it is from this year's grain, not ripe. This is the scourge of all bakers. We must be patient And let her rest.

And I could not understand everything, why the Bible says that last year's grain is better than freshly harvested one. And the year before last is even better. It turns out that this is MATURING and all accompanying
Dance,
Thank you very much for the interesting and informative information! Separately for the flour test !!!

Talichka, the Bible still contains a lot of useful information! More often we should be guided by it!
The release date is not written on the packages. This is indicated in the accompanying documents, which, unfortunately, the buyer does not see. That is why I wrote that you cannot determine flour by a bag.
So. I found a training manual. They made me do it at once, not in the evening ... So
Flour-960
Water-529.4 (I considered it a specialist)
Yeast-30
Salt-15.
And then you can argue lope want. Maybe, I think, I was mistaken ... although ... I got a manual for certification. Until now, I keep all the notes, training manuals from the school, and from the academy, and from work.

[wash gluten "]

The filling is watery. Excess moisture will go into the dough, and a dulk will remain in the layer

And what's that? I cooked the poppy seed filling in no way. It seems the consistency is average, it spreads less slowly when I mix. My dough is being prepared, I will bake the "Curl" in HP. There is still time to finalize the filling, if that

You can, of course, wash the gluten, but this is a dreary and not necessary for the house

Maybe it's not worth asking everything in detail, but I really want to know, and anything can happen in life - it may come in handy. What means "wash gluten " and what will it give as a result

Talichka, the Bible still contains a lot of useful information! More often we should be guided by it!

I also wanted to ask about the biblical bread, but I cannot formulate what either I have not read yet, or I have not realized. I didn't even read it once, in the middle of the information how my brains gushed out, they can't cope with it This is my favorite book, instructions for life
Now I know whom to ask when I mature
But probably this is not the place for such conversations, trample ...

Natasha, I meant that the liquid will be absorbed and evaporated and the filling as such will not remain.
What do you mean "cooked the filling"? Like this? Poppy filling is not boiled, poppy seeds are steamed with boiling water, infused, and then ground with sugar and that's it!
Washing gluten at home is not done (almost), it is a laboratory method for determining the quantity and quality of gluten. It must be properly washed and then analyzed correctly. For home, a test baking or kneading with a stretch is enough (at least for me). I knead and already understand what kind of flour I'm dealing with

[Dance]

Dance, Thank you! I understood about gluten.
And I cooked the filling: I poured it with boiling water, cooled down - washed it, filtered it, mixed with sugar, poured milk and cooked it. But this time I also added something there.It will turn out delicious, I will write, no - and I will forget to do it again

It must be properly washed and then analyzed correctly.

Exactly! Exactly what you need to understand what you are doing.))) I "lathered" once so that I barely had 8.5 instead of the declared eleven or twelve.

Natasha, why cook poppy seeds? Poppy is steamed for easy chopping ...

[Tan]

Tan, I once cooked and I liked it more, because it did not pour, well, the milk gave a hint in the taste. I wanted to repeat it. In general, I'm in search, I want to find what we like both in taste and in texture
I have never ground a poppy, I just haven’t even tried it. In general, no one in my family baked properly, and no one knows how to handle poppy seeds.
Today my husband asked my mother-in-law to ask about the poppy filling, and she replied that she had never done it either. My husband’s grandmother did it, but I didn’t have time

every batch [of flour] I now check. Knead for 100 g of flour and water, as for dumplings, not steep, knead well with your hands (mash). I lay for at least 10 and try to stretch. Stretches well, fits, does not stretch, breaks, I give another 10 minutes to lie down. The same procedure. The same result - everything is NOT suitable for yeast baking.

Opachki, my flour did not fit, it is for general use.
The dough was cooked, I took it out and lo and behold - pockmarked in appearance, pulled - everything is torn.
Now I will make yeast baked goods on Strong flour, such as we sell here.

Thank you all girls and boys for sharing your knowledge and experience !!!

And so the recipe: flour - 300g Yeast - 2h. l Sugar 80g Butter-40g Egg - 1 piece Salt - pinch Water (I took milk) - 100g

Why is there so much yeast? Reduce their number to 1 - 1.25 tsp, add a little flour, because the dough is thin, and you will be happy.

When I watched the video from the link, there a girl was making dough, so she kneaded and stretched it, which I just thought: "This is what she likes to play with the dough." Live and learn!

Why is there so much yeast? Reduce their number to 1 - 1.25 tsp, add a little flour, because the dough is thin, and you will be happy.

If everything was so simple))))

If everything was so simple))))

So in a yeast dough, everything is really very simple. What don't you do with it, but it still works.

Only I can't believe that for 300 grams of flour you take only 100 ml of liquid. Is that only 33 baking percent? This does not happen and even other ingredients like eggs and butter will not save the situation. I put about the same amount of fat and sugar in my dough as you do, but for 470 grams of flour there is a glass of milk with water (230-240 grams) plus an egg. And that looks pretty cool to me compared to the usual bread.

About simplicity ... I just took simple flour and decided to bake the "Poppy curl", but the flour was not suitable. As a result, the dough just crumbled in my hands, but everything was ready, well, I rolled it up ... It was delicious, but mine today learned knowledge prevented me from enjoying the taste I had to eat with my eyes closed
Here's what happened



The dough was rolled out normally, but in the process of spreading the filling it broke in places, folded and laid it, but laid it at random, it is clear that everything by itself spread out randomly filling the voids I did not lubricate the top with anything, I used a little vegetable oil when rolling the dough.

I liked the filling. It did not crumble or flow.
I steamed 100 grams of poppy seeds with boiling water. Cool down - washed and squeezed in a carousel for greenery, putting it in a special organza bag (here on the forum I read the advice and immediately sewed it for myself)
I added 150 g of brown sugar to the poppy seeds, mixed and added a little milk, about 50 ml. I put it on to cook. Remembering the friability of such a filling, I decided to try to thicken it.
Here on the forum I read what they do for buns filling "Out of nothing": sugar, butter and flour... Well, then you can add flour But I love juicy I remember that someone wrote about a juicy cottage cheese casserole, there juiciness gave butter... So you can add juiciness to the filling with butter
And then I remembered that there is "Thickener for Sauces and Soups" by Stеrn, there is just flour and butter 1: 1 by weight.
Everything - everything worked out. In the already boiling mixture of poppy, sugar and milk, I added 2 balls of thickener and boiled a little. The consistency turned out to be what we need, only it needs to be spread warm, otherwise the butter freezes and does not smear, which is what I actually spoiled the rolled dough.

Next time I will make from other flour and thoroughly deduce the proportions of all the ingredients of the filling

[Lena]

Even if the flour is unimportant, there is always an opportunity to adapt to it by changing the technology.

Lena, can you give a little more details?

[Waist]

Waist, but in my opinion, for such a picky dish, and this flour went well, it looks like the crust came out rather soft? This is not molding baguettes.

To one degree or another, I have been baking my whole life. Especially dense and almost daily in the last few years.Plus, dumplings, dumplings, which can also be very capricious to flour. Faced with torment, which really caused problems - only once, a week or two ago. You could say that I am a very undemanding eater, but I will not. From here I have two options - either I'm lucky with flour, or rumors about its frequent poor quality are greatly exaggerated.)) The maximum, where I have jambs, is that there is not enough gluten for baguettes - the cuts open up ugly or the holes are "wrong" ... But again - I do not have a kneader, mesh or HP (and this is not that) or with my hands (this is also not quite that), it may very well be that my baguette flaws are due to improper kneading or dough, and not because of flour.

dumplings, dumplings, which can also be very capricious to flour

That's it, that's it. Everything was fine and suddenly the normal dough stopped turning out. The flour is still the same, but it turns out worse. And the technology is the same

[Natalia]

I just took plain flour and decided to bake the Poppy Curl, but the flour was not right

Natalia, and what does it mean not suitable? Why did you decide so?

Lena, can you give a little more details?

Well, I'm not that special, I do everything by typing. I "corrected" this mowing flour in this way - I slightly reduced the water. I slightly reduced the oil (instead of a couple of spoons, I began to pour one). If I usually put about a third of a teaspoon of HP in my daily yeast bread, now I began to put half or even a little more. Reduced the total length of the proofer and the number of folds (but this refers to the fact that I do not carry out the classic for Russian cuisine, replacing them with several folds).

After 20 minutes of kneading and a short rise in HP, the dough falls out into the container torn and bumpy, but after several folds with short intervals it miraculously smoothes out. And you have to closely follow the final proofing in the form - it seems to take a long time to rise, but if you let it stand, the taste deteriorates sharply.

In short, he needs more attention than usual. It may very well be that at this stage I still do not understand something important, but today's loaf and the first loaf of this flour are two sooo different breads in the end.

The flour is still the same, but it turns out worse. And the technology is the same

And the temperature in the room?

[Natalia]

Natalia, and what does it mean not suitable? Why did you decide so?

Because gluten has not developed there during the entire kneading and proofing process. The dough just crumbled in my hands.
I remember when a good dough was made from this flour, so I immediately noticed. Then the floor "curl" was better in quality, less wadded or something. And dumplings with dumplings were better, and other products ...

It is necessary to review all the flour in the store, here the choice is small

And the temperature in the room?

with slight fluctuation, 16-19 degrees.

After 20 minutes of kneading and a short rise in HP, the dough falls out into the container torn and bumpy, but after several folds with short intervals it miraculously smoothes out. And you have to very closely follow the final proofing in the form - it seems to rise for a long time, but if you let it stand, the taste deteriorates sharply.

Oh thanks, I'll try too And observation is our everything

And observation is our everything

HERE! Those are the very words, Martha! (from). )) I always say that communicating with the test is like riding a bicycle - you cannot teach it, you can only learn it.

Because gluten has not developed there during the entire kneading and proofing process. The dough just crumbled in my hands.

I am not mischievous, I just do not understand yet (if anything) Because until now I have never come across inappropriate torment.
1. How much protein is in flour?
2. How did you knead: by hand, bread maker, kneader?
3. When was the fat added to the dough, immediately or 7-8 minutes after the start of the kneading?
4.Was the dough left for autolysis after pre-kneading?
5. Room temperature and dough fermentation time and during proving?

I'm not mischievous, I just don't understand yet (if anything)

Now, if anything, I also misunderstand. The option about the ripeness of flour seems to be somehow suitable, BUT ... let's get more details again

1. In flour 9.4 g of protein per 100 grams
2. Both times kneaded in HP.
3. Butter from the refrigerator directly onto the flour on top.
4. ? Autolysis ... in HP ... how is it?
5. I don’t remember the room temperature for the first time, but usually 16-19 degrees. Again, everything was done in HP, only cutting and forming the finished dough - on the table.

Here

Let me remind you that the first time was different, better, although the recipe is the same, the flour is the same, the stove is the same ... the house is the same

[Ripening wheat flour]

Here is a little I found about ripening flour

Ripening wheat flour


The dough made from freshly ground flour is characterized by increased enzymatic (amylolytic) activity and, as a result, low baking properties. Bread baked from such a dough has features characteristic of bread baked from flour with low gluten: a spreading shape, a dense and low-porous crumb, the crust is covered with small cracks.
Bread baked from the same, but ripened (after maturing) flour has much better performance. The main signs of flour ripening - its whitening, strengthening of gluten (improvement of baking qualities), positive changes in the carbohydrate-amylase complex.
Whitening flour... During ripening, the flour whitens, which is due to the chemical process of oxidation and the accompanying discoloration of the carotenoid pigments contained in it. When stored in oxygen-free environments, flour does not turn white.
Strengthening the gluten free flour. When storing flour, it is strengthened mainly for two reasons: firstly, as a result of the effect of unsaturated fatty acids (mostly oleic) on gluten, formed during enzymatic hydrolysis of fat, and, secondly, as a result of oxidation of proteolysis activators with oxygen and putting them in an inactive state. As a result, gluten proteins are less attacked by enzymes and gluten remains elastic when kneading dough.
Changes in the carbohydrate-amylase complex of flour. They are accompanied by a decrease in the value of indicators of its sugar and gas-forming ability as a result of a decrease in the enzymatic attack of starch and a decrease in the activity of amylases.
Duration of flour ripening. Depends on the temperature of its storage and the original baking properties of the grain from which it was made. The flour ripens much faster at temperatures of 25 ... 45 ° C. Lowering the temperature slows down this process until it stops completely (at 0 ° C). Using this effect, it is possible to regulate the course (and rate) of the ripening process using the temperature factor and thereby extend the safe storage period of flour, accelerating its ripening before shipment. For flour with the original weak gluten, longer periods are required for ripening. Conversely, flour from grains with good baking properties should be shipped first. This is especially true of flour with the original strong gluten. Elevated temperatures lead to its rapid overripe.

A source 🔗

Do I understand correctly? Freshly ground flour is better for sourdough, and ripe flour for baking.

Strengthening the gluten free flour. When storing flour, it is strengthened mainly for two reasons: firstly, as a result of the effect of unsaturated fatty acids (mostly oleic) on gluten, formed during enzymatic hydrolysis of fat, and, secondly, as a result of oxidation of proteolysis activators with oxygen and putting them in an inactive state. As a result, gluten proteins are less attacked by enzymes and gluten remains elastic when kneading dough.

Here's an interesting point! It turns out that, to some extent, sifting flour is important for gluten.The enrichment of flour with oxygen during sifting improves the conditions for strengthening the gluten, and, accordingly, its "work" in the dough.

I sift flour many times, I like to do it, I even smile for some reason

Well ... I also laughed at the girl that she loves to play with dough, but she herself ... I am overwhelmed with special feelings when I am engaged in bread

I noticed that the texture of the finished bread turns out to be more uniform and somehow better, but I did not associate it with gluten. I thought that the flour is simply saturated with oxygen very well and evenly, but here it turns out everything can be explained by chemistry.
I didn't pay attention to the color.
In general, so far it remains: the problem is maturity or technology

In general, so far it remains: the problem is maturity or technology

There is not enough statistics for conclusions.)) We must bake at least a couple of times.

[Waist]

Waist, what else did I remember! About the choice of flour in the store. I do not pretend to be true, because this is purely my own observation, but I noticed that the flour from which the elastic dough comes out has a somewhat rough structure. That is, you rub your dirty fingers together, and they are rough, in flour like micro-grains. And this last labor - it is like fine dust, there is no roughness.

Well, I already wrote about the color - I love it when the flour goes into rather lemon yellowness, and not into orange-beige.)) Well, that's how the difference between wheat cereals of hard and soft varieties or semolina - they are completely different in color, regardless of quality crushing.

The old-old way to make the dough elastic: after kneading, hit the dough bun with force several times on the table.

[Elena Bo]

Elena Bo, oooh ... That's yes, that's a great way. In this way I was perverted at one time, kneading the dough at 72-75% moisture. She hit the table at least five hundred times, and preferably a lot more. Unforgettable feelings! Suddenly, a piece of gum turns out from a piece of not_understand.))

Well, it is enough to hit a soft dough 5-6 times and you can immediately see how pleasant it has become - soft, elastic and does not stick at all.

Hit the table at least five hundred times

I wonder if you can put the dough in a cellophane bag and knock on the table in it

I do this. I grease the bowl with butter, put the dough in it. I put the bowl on the floor (the table gives me a return), hold the bowl with my left hand, and throw the dough there with my right. An exciting activity

The old-old way to make the dough elastic: after kneading, hit the dough bun with force several times on the table.

For whom For me new I only knew that this is done to knock out excess air from the yeast dough.
Thank you, Lena, I'll try!

I noticed that the flour from which the elastic dough comes out has a somewhat rough structure.

It seems to me, too, So about his table

I only knew that this was done to knock out excess air from the yeast dough.

Well, after mixing, there is still no air. But you will immediately see the difference to the touch.

[bread]

I wonder if you can put the dough in a cellophane bag and knock on the table in it

It ... But it doesn't just beat - it folds up every time, throwing itself on itself with every turn-blow. This is a kind of kneading - they mixed it, gave it a little spin and began to knead it in such a fun way. To the point that it will harden from a couple of kicks, it must develop gluten during the kneading process, otherwise thick films and crusts cannot be avoided. But this is if the dough is unambiguous bread - only flour-water, without muffins like butter-milk-eggs and other enhancers designed to weaken gluten.

But you will immediately see the difference to the touch.

And what does this give in the end?

But this is if the dough is unambiguously bread - only flour-water, without baking like butter-milk-eggs and other food-improvers designed to weaken gluten.

Oh, how difficult, but why weaken the gluten, my pies turn out so-so, well, I thought to surprise everyone with a "broken dough" at the weekend, but here it is like