Question to the pros about yeast dough

Any dough can be beaten. It's just one thing, if it's the kneading itself, then you need to beat for a long time. And the other is when, after the main batch, you still have to beat it off. It is more pleasant to work with the dough. It is more pliable, does not stick to hands at all, soft and elastic.

Boom beat, I'll mix it in TM, and then you can beat

Boom And I'll mix it in HP

Now, if anything, I also misunderstand. The option about the ripeness of flour seems to be somehow suitable, BUT ... let's get more details again

1. In flour 9.4 g of protein per 100 grams
2. Both times kneaded in HP.
3. Butter from the refrigerator directly onto the flour on top.
4. ? Autolysis ... in HP ... how is it?
5. I don't remember the room temperature for the first time, but usually 16-19 degrees. Again, everything was done in HP, only cutting and forming the finished dough - on the table.

Here

Let me remind you that the first time was different, better, although the recipe is the same, the flour is the same, the stove is the same ... the house is the same

In item 1. it is better to take flour with a large protein, most often in stores with a protein 10.9;
p.3 all products should be at room temperature, and softened butter (because yeast dough likes when it is warm);
p.5 at T = 16-19 * C yeast dough is cold and it rises for a very long time, you need a range of T = 26-50 * C (optimally 26 *).

p.5 at T = 16-19 * C yeast dough is cold and it rises for a very long time,

But it turns out tastier. Have you never cooked a long-aged dough in the refrigerator or a dough aged there?

[Bijou]

Bijou, about the cold method in the know, but it also has its own technology. And if a tyap-blooper, then the dough of figs will do, while the amount of yeast must be observed

I have a low temperature in my life. I never heat the dough to rise.
Maximum - I put pies-buns for the final proofing in the oven under the light bulb and bake from there, right from the cold oven. But this is more so that the dough does not wind up in the products, because I "save" the yeast and put it to a minimum, I don’t like it when the dough smells like yeast - for bread a pound of flour is 1 gram (dry), for butter pies - 2 -3.
But I agree that this is a matter of taste, of course. I also don't like heating - it's more difficult to track the dough, once or twice and the smell deteriorated because it stopped. And I don't eat that. ((

In item 1. it is better to take flour with a large protein, most often in stores with a protein 10.9;

This is what I will only be able to check in the store in a few days, in the sense of whether there is one in stock in the nearest store. For bread, I have flour with protein 12.1 g per 100 g.

p.3 all products should be at room temperature, and softened butter

Then this soft butter did not immediately add, after 10 minutes Everything else was at room temperature. My kitchen temperatures (16 * C)

p.5 at T = 16-19 * C yeast dough is cold and it rises for a very long time, you need a range of T = 26-50 * C (optimally 26 *).

This point is so tricky. It's cold and cold, but I completely cook the dough in HP on a special program, where the heat starts with kneading, then on a special program, proofing after molding, and baking separately. So the temperature in the kitchen makes little difference.

[Lena]

I do not like it when the dough smells like yeast

Lena, so unripe dough smells like yeast.
Here's a simple comparison: Bread baked on the Fast setting (from beginning to end 2 hours) - smells like yeast, there is a specific taste and the texture is free-flowing from underdeveloped gluten.
And the bread is baked with the full program (4 hours), without yeast smell and tasty.
That is, yeast also has its own maturation, which affects the smell and taste.

once or twice and the smell deteriorated because it stopped

And the stale smell is sour, the longer the stale, the more sour. It is so!?!?

And the stale smell is sour, the longer the stale, the more sour. It is so!?!?

It is so. But not just sour - alcohol and acetone notes appear in it.

Fast dough smells like yeast, most likely because a monstrous amount of yeast is usually put in for accelerated ripening. At least in the manual for my old Panas, these are the recommendations. )

[Bijou]

Bijou, with so much yeast, you probably wait a long time for the dough to rise.
I agree with the quote Waist: "ripe dough does not smell like yeast", and I don't like peroxide either
With proper fermentation, the dough should give off an alcoholic smell, but not acetone.

Fast dough smells like yeast, most likely because a monstrous amount of yeast is usually put in for accelerated ripening.

No, 2 hours for everything is clearly not enough for yeast, even if there are less of them, that's why it smells like them. It turns out about 1 hour for fermentation with kneading and proofing.

kneading → fermentation 50-60`, kneading → fermentation another 40-50`, forming → proofing ~ 40` and baking.

That's how it is called, yes Convenient when you know and understand the terminology

With proper fermentation, the dough should give off an alcoholic smell, but not acetone.

Yesterday I just had a two-day dough for chabatka with acetone.)) Maybe because under the film? It was necessary to leave a crack. Usually my dough is taken out in a plastic container with a lid, it is not sealed. But she didn't take it for two days, because there is bread in it every day. And in all the videos, boldly either dough or dough are shoved under the film. So I tried it.

Biju, with so much yeast,
probably waiting a long time for the dough to rise.

Yeah. I play at least half a day. But I don't eat anything else - the longer, the better. But from the refrigerator its troubles passed ... ((

No, 2 hours for everything is clearly not enough for yeast, even if there are less of them, that's why it smells like them.

If there are "less" of them, then there is simply nothing to smell. But I won't argue, most likely we just have different experiences.

[Bijou]

Bijou, it was necessary to stick holes in the film with a fork or a toothpick

[Waist]

Waist,
Flour with a protein content of 9.4 g is a soft flour. It is good for making pasta, for example. For muffins and plain white bread, 10.3-10.5g will be enough, for baguettes, ciabatta from 12g.
The butter should be softened at room temperature. It is better to add it, like other fats (which also include egg yolks), into the dough not immediately, but 7-8 minutes after the start of kneading. Thus, the fat will not interfere with the swelling of the starch contained in the flour, and prevent the development of gluten, which is precisely responsible for the elasticity of the dough.
About autolysis in HP. Knead the preliminary dough: yeast, water, flour (leave 2 tablespoons of flour), sugar. Knead in HP for 5-6 minutes, without fanaticism, the main thing is that all the flour is evenly moistened. Stop kneading and leave the dough in a bucket for 15-20 minutes. Then add softened butter and the remaining flour. After another 5-6 minutes add salt to the dough (it also "breaks" the gluten threads, so it is recommended to add it to the dough at the very end).
Further fermentation of the dough for one and a half to two hours, with the obligatory one or two kneading.
Put the finished dough on the table, knead it, roll it into a ball, cover it with a bowl or film and let the preliminary proofing for 10 minutes.
And then molding, proofing (until the volume of the dough piece is doubled) and baking.

Bijou, I had to stick holes in the foil with a fork or a toothpick

There was nothing about the holes on YouTube!

[Bijou]

Bijou, but where is Khlebopechkin's initiative, which is not looking for easy ways.

which is not looking for easy ways.

Uh-huh ... The third day in the right column I read five times a day "Laziness of hot smoking".

[Bijou]

Bijou,

Uh-huh ... The third day in the right column I read five times a day "Laziness of hot smoking".

Oh! ! ! I read this way from the first day of my appearance, but for the first time I read it fluently and ... hung for five minutes! Usually, laziness, mother, but here ... for some reason hot smoked!
Well, you, virgins, and scribbled! And at least someone understood something? Ligra, I think, is good to load girls with terms. otherwise they will freeze too

Uh-huh ... The third day in the right column I read five times a day "Laziness of hot smoking".

Well, you, virgins, and scribbled! And at least someone understood something? Ligra, I think, is good to load girls with terms. otherwise they will freeze too

No, I only hold on because my husband played fishing on the Internet and there was a fish ling, although he wants to read lEN, aha

[Dance]

Dance, but how is it better in the form or without the form of the oven, maybe in the form there is less chance of rupture?))

otherwise they will freeze too

Already ...

Can you show a photo how to pinch the roll, in which form to put it?

Marish, be patient. I'll make rolls in a day or two and I'll take a picture. Here's how to lay out the current? I have such an Internet that one photo can be loaded for half a night ... I can send you an email, and you can go here ...

[Dance]

Dance, oh, I want to see too! It is never too late to study, how many new things I learn. And then I thought the other day to sculpt a roll, I'd better wait for the pros.

[Dance]

Dance

FAQ-oh-oh ?? And in Russian?

[Tan]

Tan, but e-mails in Russian do not exist Or are you also hung up?

Ah! Duc, I do not understand what it is ... but STE mail, akazueTsa! And I, tundra!
I, Natakha, have been hanging up recently and specifically! Mabut is getting old ...
Olyushka, thank you for the educational program, otherwise I would have lived for another 100 years in order to understand what it is?

[Dance]

Dance, waitmssss

Flour with a protein content of 9.4 g is a soft flour. It is good for making pasta, for example. For muffins and plain white bread, 10.3-10.5g will be enough, for baguettes, ciabatta from 12g.

I baked it again. The flour is still the same, protein is 9.4. I haven't been to the store yet, I haven't looked for other flour. But if it is not there, then you have to adapt to what is.

The butter should be softened at room temperature. It is better to add it, like other fats (which also include egg yolks), into the dough not immediately, but 7-8 minutes after the start of kneading. Thus, the fat will not interfere with the swelling of the starch contained in the flour, and prevent the development of gluten, which is precisely responsible for the elasticity of the dough.
About autolysis in HP. Knead the preliminary dough: yeast, water, flour (leave 2 tablespoons of flour), sugar. Knead in HP for 5-6 minutes, without fanaticism, the main thing is that all the flour is evenly moistened. Stop kneading and leave the dough in a bucket for 15-20 minutes. Then add softened butter and the remaining flour. After another 5-6 minutes add salt to the dough (it also "breaks" the gluten threads, so it is recommended to add it to the dough at the very end).
Further fermentation of the dough for one and a half to two hours, with the obligatory one or two kneading.
More details: https://Mcooker-enn.tomathouse.com/in...=com_smf&topic=429904.160

This kneading technology made the dough plastic, which made me VERY happy

Put the finished dough on the table, knead it, roll it into a ball, cover it with a bowl or film and let the preliminary proofing for 10 minutes.

But this did not need to be done, because after standing, the dough began to break again. It was necessary to mold immediately, as soon as I pulled out the finished dough from the HP.
The result is the same as in last time.

[What is "autolysis" ("autolysis")?]

For me, the term "autolysis or autolysis" was new and incomprehensible. I was looking for explanations in the internet and this is what I found

What is "autolysis" ("autolysis")?

In general, autolysis is the chemical process of decomposition or decomposition, and hydrolysis is the dissolution of the original substance under the action of water with the formation of a new one. In bakery, the term "autolysis" is more often referred to as proving a mixture of flour and water before kneading the dough. This technique is intended to improve the structure of the dough, its viscosity, to strengthen gluten, because gluten (or another name for "gluten" - the protein contained in flour) does not dissolve in water.

Autolysis is usually carried out for wheat dough or dough with added wheat flour. For whole wheat and other gluten-free flours, autolysis is not performed.

For a dough without sourdough, mix water and flour and leave for at least an hour. For sourdough dough, mix flour, water and sourdough and let sit for 30 minutes.

Autolysis can be complete (if all the flour according to the recipe is involved) or partial (if only part of the flour is taken).

The mixture for autolysis must be covered with a lid or film so that it does not dry out and wind up.

After autolysis, recipe ingredients are added to the flour and water mixture.
Taken here 🔗

[Waist]

Waist, I also dabbled a little with autolysis a year or two ago. I can't say that the result is something completely different from the usual way.

I also tried adding fat and other extras much later than the first, main batch. I was horrified how the glossy elastic dough, habitually stretching on the fingers almost to a transparent state, suddenly instantly became loose and torn after adding oil. I had to repeat mixing almost completely. I didn't do that again, once was enough. I don’t know what can be screwed up here, but it turned out so sadly.

But this was not necessary to do, because after standing, the dough began to break again. It was necessary to mold immediately, as soon as I pulled out the finished dough from the HP.

Strange ... I always let the dough lie down and come up a bit after removing it from the HP. Maybe the yeast is too nimble and the dough came up before our eyes, losing a little elasticity from this?

More precisely, after the program "Pizza" I dump the butter dough from HP into a container for 45 minutes, fold it, leave it, after a slight rise I fold it again once or twice ... Until it looks clearly well suited and starts to squeak. At different flour-yeast-temperature, these will be different moments, so you definitely can't tell. In principle, I put just a little yeast just in order to play out the dough longer, the structure and taste of the finished products is very different from the usual unpaired pies, which are made of dough almost immediately from HP. The main message for such actions was the once long-read recipe for maintaining some kind of foreign analogue of our cake, I don’t remember the name. But there the dough is kept for almost two days, constantly folding and getting in total a completely awesome openwork structure with thin films.

[Bijou]

Bijou, Lena, I'm reading, looking, trying to compare ... cooking in KhP is still very different from "manual" cooking.

Today I read that even the speed of mixing affects the development of gluten. The faster the dough is kneaded, the more yeast you need. So much for the argument of a large amount of yeast for HP.

Kneading affects the recipe

Water temperature: the more intensive the mixing, the lower the water temperature should be. The use of ice is allowed.

Yeast type: there are special yeast for the accelerated method, which is used in the UK, where the whole process from kneading to baking is 90-120 minutes.

Yeast dosage: the less intensive the kneading, the longer the fermentation should be and the lower the dosage of yeast should be.

Duration of fermentation after kneading... The more intensive the kneading, the less fermentation should be after kneading. It is not recommended to give fermentation after the ideal development of gluten, this will lead to overstrain of the gluten framework and the occurrence of explosions on the surface.

Duration of final proofing... The more intensively the kneading was, the more elastic the dough will turn out. Accordingly, it will be necessary to spend additional time to "stretch" this elastic system.

In general, the flour should be changed, but not yet.
I still have 16 * in my kitchen, when laying the butter it cooled down and probably it was it that spoiled the structure with its hardening. Therefore, it was necessary to mold quickly and for a warm proofing with baking.

The main message for such actions was the once long-read recipe for maintaining some kind of foreign analogue of our cake, I don’t remember the name.But there the dough is carried out for almost two days, constantly folding and getting in total a completely awesome openwork structure with thin films.

Lena, is there a link?

Water temperature: the more intensive the mixing, the lower the water temperature should be. The use of ice is allowed.

This is also due to the fact that during mechanical work heat is generated, and this is not good for dough. Place ice so that the dough does not overheat. Something seems to me that these problems mainly relate to kneaders, and in bread makers the batch is too weak to be worried about this.

Lena, is there a link?

Of course not. I usually grab the significant details into memory and forget the rest entirely. I hope the local pros will immediately understand what it is about and say the name, then it will be easy to find.

I still have 16 * in my kitchen, when lying down, the butter cooled down and probably it was it that spoiled the structure with its hardening.

Well, let him lie in the oven under a light bulb, or something ... But something is hard to believe, hardly a small amount of oil is capable of such nasty things. Maybe it just stuck?

I don't really like the pies that were quickly formed after HP, they look too much like "government" ones, not homemade ones.)

I want a roll with apples, tomorrow I'll bake it without a mold, we'll see what happens ...

Knead the dough, put 1.5 tsp of dry yeast, it rises very badly, can it leave overnight? Maybe in the refrigerator?

Little yeast, poor growth, although for so long (about 4-5 hours) the dough became very elastic ...

[ma-ri-na]

ma-ri-na, but what about taste and structure?
It's just that a small amount of yeast is not just so that the dough does not stink with yeast or to save yeast. It was originally intended to lengthen the ripening time of the dough. And during this time, a huge number of chemical reactions take place in the dough, which ultimately affect its color-appearance-taste-aroma. Maybe at first the difference does not seem very significant, but after some habit there is simply no other bread to eat.

Doughs were invented for the same purpose. To develop flavors. At one time, I did just that - putting some of today's dough in the refrigerator and replacing it with yesterday's or the day before yesterday. It also tastes good, but it seemed like more fuss - it's easier for me to put the daily dough in a container several times.

And I don't like the smell of yeast, but I like rolls

While I was writing in the next topic, I realized one of my mistakes
I bake ordinary white bread every day with live yeast in the process pour pressed yeast with WARM whey... While making butter dough for "Curl", I used Instant yeast and immediately filled it with warm water out of habit. Instant yeast is sensitive to temperature, as a result, my dough simply overripe. That's how important it is which yeast is used.

And I don't like the smell of yeast, but I like rolls

Marish, can you increase the proofing time? The smell of mature yeast is pleasant and very little felt. Maybe change the yeast

Although they write that yeast does not affect the taste, I can feel the difference, both in smell and taste
I buy pressed yeast only in one place, not the closest one, but others

In the process, pour the pressed yeast with WARM whey on ordinary white bread with live yeast. While making butter dough for Zavitushka, I used Instant yeast and immediately filled it with warm water out of habit. Instant yeast is sensitive to temperature, as a result, my dough simply overripe

Mmm ... Judging by the next topic, I would venture to suggest that living yeast survives well if half. Hence their small real dosage follows. Not?

[Bijou]

Bijou, I fill them with serum 30-35 *, which seems to be just a good temperature for them. Yes, and according to the result, it turns out that they are good at the same time.But I have certain conditions - BAKERY, it means a lot

Lena, I tried it with less yeast, something like your method Oh, I liked it Until I realized if my husband liked it

[Waist]

Waist, wait .. You said that you mix live with sugar ?! Or have I misunderstood? Then sorry.
Yeast equally dislikes both sugar and salt in large quantities - they dry out the cell, drawing out the cellular fluid. There are some strains that are better adapted to a sweet environment, they are called osmotolerant, but I do not seem to have met. Often, for sweet dough, they simply increase the amount of normal yeast.

Instant ones can be filled with liquid, nothing bad happens to them.

[Lena]

Lena, Here here take a look.
The amount of compressed yeast corresponds to the replacement of dry instant yeast. The result is good. What else can be an indicator of correctness?
Let me remind you, this is for HP. It has its own technology and time frame for everything. Violation of something gives worse results.

I'm not saying that you can get perfect bread in KP, but according to the assessment of baking in KP, I think the result is good

Oh girls, I don't know what the hell they need))), maybe it's cool in the house, now the dough is ripening in the sauna, I just really don't know what else to try, so I ask if you often make buns, rolls, buns, preferably for a spicy recipe, PLEASE drop the recipes here, I will be VERY grateful!

[Dance]

Well ... As they say, relax and have fun, I let everything go by itself, observing the rules described Dance, before baking, I checked it with my finger, indeed, I used to set it in time, in the end, apparently did not hold it, as a result, today the roll did not break for the first time, the dough is airy and tender, there are a lot of fillings, I rolled it out as usual, thinly, I don’t know what is the secret in proofing or place (I did not put it in a water bath as usual, but in a warm sauna)

Photo report:



2 the rise was slightly higher

Oh girls, I don't know what the hell they want))),

Well, I don’t know ... At first I put 2 teaspoons of HP on almost a pound of flour for pies, then one and a half, now one. And everything works out fine.

It is the same in bread - at first I shoved almost 8 grams of dry yeast for half a kilo, then 6 grams, then switched to spoons and stopped in half, my scales refuse to recognize so much.