Starter cultures - in questions and answers

[Fry1]

Fry1, hacked at the root of all my assumptions. :-)
I also make a sourdough on wheat flour, but instead of water I take milk whey, I take regular flour, not very expensive (it is not bleached with any chemistry). A couple of times I killed the sourdough, forgetting to leave part of the sourdough, then, for a greater speed of growing a new sourdough, I added a spoonful of my yogurt. An excellent leaven grows in two to three days.
Try adding bran or first grade flour, your flour may be too "clean".

Try adding bran or first grade flour, your flour may be too "clean".

I think that's the catch. Either raisins or a piece of banana, apple, grape.

added a spoonful of my yogurt

I immediately take out the kefir. Fast, did not let you down. Strong.

Thanks for the advice. I will certainly try other recipes then. It just seems like this method should have worked, and I wanted to figure it out)

[Fry1]

Fry1, apparently flour contains little yeast, so it doesn't work well. That is, other microorganisms have time to multiply along with yeast and destroy the yeast. Therefore, it is necessary to add something that contains a lot of this wild yeast.

Girls, does the proportion of 50 g of wheat flour per 50 g of water bother anyone? Did you get such liquid, completely wheat?

[Tatyana]

Tatyana, I brought out the Frenchwoman thick wheat and rye hop. Both there and there the start was with whole-grain rye flour, the proportion with water is 1: 1. But the quantities are really large, 200 grams of flour and water were needed, now I don't want to climb, look. I also immediately wrote about this:

Fry1, you may be taking a little raw material.

rye CZ flour 1: 1 gives a normal soft dough. And on wheat it is thinner dough. It flows literally. Yes, I also start with rye CZ, as a rule. And the dough is normal. And the above method is the first time I meet. A liquid wheat base raises doubts that, in principle, something will work. But I'm not very experienced. Therefore, I only doubt, not assert.
The above is similar to the Levite in feeding proportion, but too liquid. I tried Leviticus, the initial dough is much thicker there.

[Tatyana]

Tatyana, well, it flows straight. It will be a very bad meal. Liquid wheat leavens lead 1: 1, they do not flow and even rise. Not as cool, but still. It's just that the flour is taken as purified as possible, and even a little of it. Although, I think that even with a larger amount, it is unlikely that it will work out without the additional introduction of yeast, bran / berries, etc.

[Fry1]

well, yes, I just displayed

J. Hamelman's liquid wheat sourdough (Scarecrow)

but there is another start.
Can Fry1 it is worth taking a normal recipe with a detailed description and comments, and then it will definitely be of use. I would not start conjuring around wheat flour at the start. You can only waste time, and then you still have to look for a normal recipe.

Maybe Fry1 should take a normal recipe with a detailed description and comments, and then it will definitely be good.

Golden words I think so too

I take 50 grams of wheat flour c. from. and 50 grams of water

and this is from what sourdough recipe?

Technology is broken

Walked through the leaven. Initially taken at least 100 g of flour.
That is, a critical volume is needed to start the process. Here, it is initially reduced, and the process simply does not start.

And for me, although with 100 g at the beginning, the leaven with a start on one wheat flour is always difficult. In due time I suffered with the Levite.If we are talking about sourdough on one wheat flour, then only a very experienced baker can improvise. The rest should follow a good recipe. It is much easier with rye sourdough.

I don’t know what recipe I’m making, but I start stirring up the sourdough literally from a tablespoon of flour in a 0.2 liter shallow bowl.
I made sure that quantity is not the most important condition.

on one wheat flour - always difficult

I do not agree.

Here it is, not yet another day has passed

Bank of 1.5 liters, flour VS
Lactic acid starter culture by Admin

[Lelka]

Lelka, I think that the fact that it is not on the water, but with a lactic acid product plays a significant role here. There is yeast there too. So wherever you spit, but to wheat flour c. from. you need to add yeast in some way.

There's yeast there too

Of course! But yeast is in the air too.
Bred wheat on the water. Long, expensive. Whatever one may say, but to throw away part of the leaven had to, according to technology. Derived in the likeness of the eternal.
I also liked the raisin. Of course, wheat flour is clean, it needs help to get started

I do not agree.

I join.
I love wheat sourdough, it is docile, does not oxyderate for a long time without feeding, and the peroxide is easily restored. But, again, I have the simplest flour and whey instead of water.

whey instead of water

yeah, sour
So it can be taken out with 50g of flour. Even necessary. A very exuberant leaven

that quantity is not the most important condition

so we got to the truth)))

Now in order, I take 50 grams of wheat flour c. from. and 50 grams of water. After 36-48 hours, it rises well, at least twice, after that I start feeding, I take 50 grams of sourdough and 25 grams of flour and water each. After a day, the leaven rises again. I repeat everything, the leaven can rise again, but the next time it definitely stops rising. That is, after 3-4 feeding, the sourdough does not grow, but just after a couple of hours it becomes very liquid with small bubbles. Explain why this is happening? Why does the leaven, after several dressings, become liquid and stop growing, water begins to peel off, while it tastes sour, the smell is ordinary.

In my opinion, "food" is simply not enough for your sourdough, therefore, the sourdough starves with its subsequent depletion and cessation of vigorous activity. You can try increasing the number of feeds or using whole grain wheat flour.
Perhaps you will be interested in the topic of growing and recommendations for storing the starter culture: "Eternal" leaven... And a detailed recipe for wheat sourdough, in which rye flour is used to start:

J. Hamelman's liquid wheat sourdough (Scarecrow)

and illustration for the recipe in photos: J. Hamelman's liquid wheat sourdough # 30.

In my opinion, "food" is simply not enough for your sourdough, therefore, the sourdough starves with its subsequent depletion and cessation of vigorous activity.

I think so too

[Admin]

Admin, Good morning! I have a question about zkvask and industrial yeast. What is the use of sourdough for bread, in contrast to industrial yeast. on TV there was a program Live Healthy (I'm not a very fan of this program) and there was a topic about bread and there they said that there is no bread without yeast, that yeast does not represent any harm that it is protein and at high temperatures they die, that's the whole point in flour, because flour is a carbohydrate and carbohydrates are not always useful. but you don't need to give up bread and you need to eat better than bran. Then the question arises, why bother to take out the sourdough at all (I myself removed the sourdough, it turned out from rye flour, but it doesn't work out of premium flour) if the yeast does not pose any threat to the body? It turns out that all lactic acid bacteria die in the leaven at high temperatures.

[Nut]

Nut, I'm not Admin-Tatiana, but can I answer?
Indeed, the same yeast lives in the leaven, only wild (from the air, from the shells of grain, fruits, etc.). Plus, the sourdough contains lactic acid bacteria that live in symbiosis with our yeast. In the commercial "yeast" product, only yeast lives. Yeast does die in baking. And lactic acid bacteria too. But not all, at least bacteria. Since sourdough bread often becomes more acidic during storage - this is the work of our micro-bacteria.
Why bring out the leaven? For taste. This is a matter of your personal taste preferences. This is how it developed over time for me - wheat bread, completely without sourness on the first day after baking, becomes sour on the second and third day. Since bread lasts for three days, we consistently had sour bread on the third day. Our family didn't like it very much. Therefore, I bake wheat bread using industrial yeast, but using ripe dough or dough. Then the bread does not sour, but it has a wonderful aroma. But we absolutely do not like rye wheat bread without sourdough - we lack this very sourness in the taste. I didn’t experiment with this question for very long, but I didn’t find my recipe without sourdough that would suit us. That's why I bake Darnitskiy with sourdough.

[Nut]

Nut, yes, everyone died. But we only needed from them the products of their vital activity. From yeast to a greater extent - carbon dioxide. CO gas₂, the bubbles of which raise the dough, structure, and from ICD - acids, alcohols, etc. complex compounds saturating the dough with aromas, tastes, and odors. In the articles it is beautiful and scientifically everything is described), read. I think Admin will throw you direct links to forum topics.

[Nut]

Nut,

And if you find fault with this program - yeast-free bread happens)). For example, on baking powder: soda and acid. You can loosen bread both by the products of the vital activity of microorganisms and by chemical means a la cake.

[dough left over from previous baking]

they said that there is no bread without yeast

I came here purely by chance ...

The question is certainly interesting. And you can talk about this for a long time, and even those who like to argue can connect, and little will be said

And if you remember the history of baking bread by our ancestors, what did they bake on? On homemade sourdough, our own, grown once and then maintained for generations.
Not even so, here I have already described Wheat bread on old dough dough (oven)

1. Once every two or three weeks, bread was baked at the peasant farm, devoting a whole day to this.
2. Prepare the leaven in the evening.
TO dough left over from previous baking, mix flour 1/3 of the recipe and warm water (a small amount from the recipe) - let the dough ferment for at least 12 hours.
Cover with a towel and leave until morning.
And further in the text ...

Here, she and the "eternal" leaven, scraped along the trough-dezhe, added flour-water, allowed to stand, yeast from the air was connected, and the leaven was obtained Hence, apparently the expression "for old yeast"
I already wrote about the "eternal" leaven here back in 2007 https://Mcooker-enn.tomathouse.com/in...&topic=41.0 , from Baking Bread at Home, by Margaret Merzenich and Erica Tyr.

The leaven works great it can be maintained for years
And the composition of the leaven is the simplest:
- flour
- simple water
- yeast is ubiquitous from the air

I will not say anything about industrial chemical yeast, my opinion today is also ambiguous, unfortunately And we perceive dry-wet yeast also in different ways, each - his own! Someone is indifferent to them, and someone they spoil their lives.
According to baking science, technology, yeast lives in the dough until the temperature rises to 55-60 * C, then dies, therefore, the rise of the dough-bread in the oven stops. The bread rises to the desired height and stops.
But if they "die", then in the future they should not manifest themselves and make themselves felt in any way, this is no longer working material.

But, then why do they add crusts of white and black bread to kvass (and other drinks, food), and the boiling process begins there, the fermentation process? Yes, what a stormy process! I still remember the 100-liter jar with home brew in the barn, and the sleek faces of my father and grandfather, who, like partisans, dived into the barn and back, they all checked their "readiness" until the bottom of the jar reached

Yes, such fermentation can be obtained with flour-water, as with eternal leaven. Yeast is everywhere in the air, in the kitchen, in foods and vegetables. And even in us!
But, the bubbling is excellent on a crust of bread, modern bread baked with industrial yeast !!! Then it turns out that the yeast does not die during baking?

I don’t presume to argue, and I don’t want to discuss this topic either, since I didn’t understand it thoroughly - and there’s no desire I switched to sourdough bread, rye

For those wishing to argue, the forum has a large selection of material on this subject, use the search

Thank you all very much for your answers. The answers were rich and interesting. I myself also really love rye bread with sourness, so I'm looking for answers to questions.

[Richard Bertine, "Bread Business".]

Richard Bertine, "Bread Business".
"Using the sourdough is extremely simple. You need to stock up on a piece of old dough, let it stand for 4-6 hours at room temperature or leave it in a cold place overnight, then mix it with flour, water and salt and bake fresh bread. There is a more difficult option. - this is bread based on specially bred sourdough, the cherished goal of every baker. It's strange, isn't it that the most ancient way of making yeast bread suddenly became the most fashionable? pure food in traditional ways, more and more consumers want to eat food that is not tainted by industrial additives Sourdough bread is one of this category: it requires wild yeast, not factory yeast, and this is the best example of natural and delicious food.
The taste of sourdough bread is absolutely special, on the one hand it is very whole and harmonious, on the other it is always different, and its crispy caramelized crust can be salty, sweet, or with a characteristic sourness.
Sourdough bread is digested much better than other types of baked goods. Due to its thick crust, it takes longer to chew; more saliva is released, carbohydrates begin to break down, and the sour taste contributes to this process in every possible way. The breakdown of proteins and carbohydrates is accompanied by the multiplication of beneficial bacteria, which help maintain a balance in the gastrointestinal tract, namely, good digestion depends on it. These bacteria are related to yoghurt: for a long time they were deliberately destroyed by prolonged sterilization to increase the shelf life of products, and now, having been called probiotics, they are again added to yoghurts and sold at a high price.
It seems like we always knew instinctively that we need to consume acidic foods to function properly. Look at the traditional combinations of dishes in different cultures that precede modern fast food: in France, pates and meat delicacies are eaten with pickled cucumbers, in Italy pasta is washed down with red wine, in England fish and chips are sprinkled with vinegar, and traditional Plowman's is served with "Pahar's lunch" with cheese and pickles are bread.
Sourdough bread is all the rage right now, but few people understand what it really is. One has only to start talking about leaven in the classroom - and complete bewilderment in the eyes. The more questions they ask me, the clearer I understand that many people consider "leavened" bread to be a separate type of bread. In fact, in bakery, this is how the process of natural fermentation is described, caused not by factory, but by wild yeast, which is in our daily food. For several days, this yeast is allowed to multiply and ferment, as a result of which the leaven acquires a sour taste. In essence, this mechanism is close to the processes occurring in cheese making.
Wild yeast has been used to make sour bread since ancient times. According to legend, 2000 BC, a woman in the Nile Valley kneaded a simple dough into tortillas. She baked most of it on a hot stone, and left a piece for later. The next day I decided to mix yesterday's dough with a new one. The cakes came out more fluffy and airy. They say that this is how sourdough bread appeared.
So much has been written in cookbooks, magazines, and blogs about fermentation and sourdough dough, that at first glance, the tax return is easier to understand. Of course, leavened bread requires experience and a deep understanding of the process, but do not be afraid: a little patience and you will be rewarded. To be honest, I have been baking for more than 30 years and every time I take out sourdough bread from the oven, I think I have achieved something. Whatever bread you bake, you always experience a feeling of great satisfaction, but this is a special matter: the very nature of leavened bread never ceases to amaze me.
In this book, I will tell you how I bake this bread - because everyone does it differently. You can take ten bakers, give each one a kilogram of flour and the same recipe, at the end you will receive ten different loaves, completely different from each other.
For example, I am often asked how to make sourdough bread, like in San Francisco. They say that he is the best in the world, because a special bacterium lives in the air of San Francisco (a sourdough containing this bacterium can be bought from different manufacturers). But I believe that leavened bread keeps the spirit of the place where it is baked. So I can tell you how I make my sourdough bread, and if you like, you can call it "Bat sourdough bread." All these years I have been baking it using the same technology, both in London and in France, and everywhere it turns out differently. The fermentation process with wild yeast is influenced by the composition and characteristics of the air of a particular area. So your sourdough bread will always be just yours, like you and the place where you live. My bread is very dear to me, and I recognize it blindfolded.
I will try to explain to you all the stages in sequence, without complicating anything on purpose, as if we are together in the kitchen. I'm not sure that your first sourdough bread will turn out perfectly right away: it takes some time and patience. But I promise - as much as it is generally appropriate to promise something in our bakery business - in the end you will have a great bread that you will be very proud of. "(C)

Peace be with you bakers!

it depends on what you do
fermenting milk with sour cream - you won't get yogurt, just like kefir

As well as yogurt)). Kefir is a specific product, and you, in fact, cannot taste the rest. Yogurt and yogurt.

Souring sour cream will not get yogurt, but, in fact, sour cream (although it cannot be called that strictly speaking), but with an error in fat content. Because sour cream is fermented cream, and yogurt is self-leaven. As well as bread leaven.

[Nata]

And yogurt, in fact, is Mechnikovskaya curdled milk. Nicely called.

do not taste.

NataCan't you tell yogurt from yogurt? I will not believe)))

[OlgaGera]

OlgaGera,

I can hardly tell, really. I mean exactly the repeated leaven with your own hands. I fermented the milk with whatever it got: sour cream, fermented baked milk, yogurt, some kind of bifivit, a million dry starter cultures ... If you also take into account that you cannot withstand completely identical conditions every time - in general, you can figure out how to determine the shades of taste: different milk, its initial temperature, time, type of sourdough, amount of sourdough .. Therefore, I stopped to soar critically about this. I haven't eaten curdled milk for a hundred years. For me, it tastes closer to kefir than to yogurt.

Therefore, I have ceased to soar critically about this.

so too. I ferment with what is in the withers. I only make matsoni according to the recipe as taught. With wrapping in a blanket)))

Girls, I also have a question about the whole grain sourdough.
We lost our rye flour.Declared that the world
prices for cereals and cereals. Apparently buyers have not yet settled in prices.
We don't grow rye.
I have 400 grams left for top dressing. And I don't use wheat.
So I don't know how to switch to whole grain, how to make it?
And how to dry rye, then suddenly flour will appear.

[Markusy]

Markusy,

We have the same story. The rye flour is gone.

Spread the leaven in a thin layer on parchment and place in a warm room. Drying at natural temperature. Then she will shake off the petals. In a jar with a lid for storage.

Natasha, thank you!
Well, we are Israel. Not much wheat grows here either.
Why there is no rye flour in Russia, I do not understand.
At one time, I did not pay attention to her in Minsk,
as well as whole grain. She was stupid.



Girls, I was making raisin sourdough almost a year ago.
Now I can't even remember where I got the recipe from
his Smarad or here on the forum. I read a lot.
This is me because I have to do it again and I want to know
how to make whole grain sourdough. I did not find anything about her.
And what about storage. So I keep it in the fridge for a week
I feed them before baking. In the refrigerator she
as if sleeping. And when I take it out for 2 hours before feeding,
starts to blow bubbles.
Baking with rye flour is always difficult to rise.
The flour is heavy. And vos with whole grain, then you can't stop.

[Anna]

Now I can't remember

Annamaybe here?
Raisin sourdough, problems and tips

[Viki]

Olya, thanks! No, not this one. This one is very fast,
and I cooked the leaven for several days.
I'll look in my notes. But it works well for over a year.



Olya, I found the records. This leaven
from our forums from Viki

I can't understand why my wheat leaven doesn't like c / w flour? Fermentation is very sluggish, the dough is stratified. There is no such thing with rye flour. I don’t bake on a / c.

I have it stratified when there is a lot of water, it does not seem to depend on the leaven.

And in what proportion do you correlate water and flour?
But with whole grain flour, the sourdough will grow more slowly,
because flour is also heavier.
I have had rye sourdough for over a year now, when I feed,
it also does not grow much, but does not stratify.
But, if you want to bake whole grain on rye
sourdough, then add other flour not to the dough, but to the main
dough.
Just try mixing and adding more.
And I have a problem. I'm writing a new recipe, but it doesn't work
insert the final photo.

[Anna]

And I have a problem. I'm writing a new recipe, but it doesn't work
insert the final photo.

Anna, you Chef and Admin offered their help by answering all your questions in the profile topic of the forum: Insert photo.

Tell me, but it is harmful for sourdough if you feed it with different flours every time - then c / s, then wheat, then rye (I bake this way, different breads, make a dough for them, and then take a piece from the dough for a starter)

[Newbie]

Newbie, I feed with any flour, I even added manku (when the flour was over). :-)

I didn't think about it. I feed rye, bake from different.
I also want to know the answer to this question.

Related topics:

The leaven is weak, how to cheer it up?

Novichok_ya, I feed with any flour, I even added some manka (when the flour was over). :-)

my everything, probably, was fed up with different flour - like snot, weakly bubbles and rises a little.
Fed up the c / s and threw dried apricots, and suddenly "shake up"?

[Bread maker]

I am so grateful Bread makerthat came to me,
but the way in the catacombs.
But she began to bake bread often. My new starter works great!
I don’t bother whether it is branded or not.
I did everything! Be creative with baking.
Weak, feed. When baking, you can add
half a spoonful of dry yeast. It will work.
And now I will also bake white bread. I'll start a wheat sourdough.
There is still flour.

I wonder how does sourdough dough relate to garlic? if garlic inhibits yeast, will it stretch, given that the leaven is not very strong? I wanted something garlic bread, and what if a pancake at the exit will turn out?

[Newbie]

Newbie, if you are afraid to spoil the bread, let the chopped garlic stand, let it fizzle out a little, the phytoncides are volatile.
And add the garlic to the dough only at the last kneading.

And add the garlic to the dough only at the last kneading.

yes, as an option
Thank you!

I wonder how does sourdough dough relate to garlic? if garlic inhibits yeast, will it stretch, given that the leaven is not very strong? I wanted something garlic bread, and what if a pancake at the exit will turn out?

crumbled a clove of garlic. Good bread turned out. The smell was ... mmm. And for some reason it is not felt in bread.