Starter cultures - in questions and answers

Good day. Tell me please
Is it better to store rye sourdough in the refrigerator under a tight lid or with air access?
Before putting it in the refrigerator, do you need to feed it again, or can you take the right amount from the active one, and the rest straight into the refrigerator?
Can wheat be also stored in the refrigerator?

[Ira]

Ira, I have eternal rye leaven. I bake it once a week. I take it out of the refrigerator in the evening, feed it, in the morning I put some of it into the refrigerator (I don't feed it anymore), and bake the rest.
Store in a refrigerator in a glass jar with a screw cap.
My leaven is soon two years old, alive, active (t-t), makes me a wonderful Borodino bread.
I don’t bake white bread with sourdough, so I don’t know about wheat bread

[Svetlana]

Svetlana, Thank you. I also do not feed in front of the refrigerator, somewhere on the forum I saw such recommendations and thought maybe I was doing it wrong.
I'm just going to master wheat, so I'm interested. I also saw somewhere wrote that it cannot be stored in the refrigerator

[Ira]

Ira, I also read this recommendation. And I also read that before baking you need to feed three times. But I'm honestly too lazy for such dances with tambourines. If everything works without it ...
Now, if my starter culture gets sad and needs to be treated, then yes, I'll go read and follow all the recommendations

I take it out of the refrigerator in the evening, feed it, in the morning I put some of it into the refrigerator (I don't feed it anymore), and bake the rest.

Svetlana, I have about 150 gr. sourdough. Tomorrow I want to bake rye bread. How many candles should you take to feed flour and water?
And the second question is this. If dry yeast is present in the recipe, can you replace it with zakazka and in what proportion? I would like to consume less yeast.

[irina tukina]

irina tukinaThe calculation is as follows - flour for feeding should not be less than the amount that you have in the leaven. This means that if you have a starter culture of 100% moisture, that is, it contains an equal amount of flour and water, then 150 grams of starter culture contains 75 grams of flour. Accordingly, for feeding you need to take at least 75 grams of flour and the same amount of water.
In general, I keep 30-50 grams of starter in the refrigerator, this is quite enough. And I feed him so that I have enough for bread and left for divorce. That is, I get much more flour than I wrote to you. The starter culture is happy
I am leading a sourdough specifically for rye bread, there it is originally in the recipes. In rye bread, you can completely abandon yeast, the leaven will cope. Different recipes recommend 120 to 300 g of sourdough per kilogram loaf.
Unfortunately, I can't advise anything about wheat bread, I don't like white bread with sourdough. Read the recipes on the forum, I think find out for yourself the approximate proportions.
The only thing I can say is that the use of sourdough will not reduce the consumption of yeast, since yeast is the basis of the sourdough and its lifting power (in combination with lactic acid bacteria).

Thank you for the quick answer. But if you can bake with yeast, then why should there be leaven. Sorry for the silly questions, I'm a beginner baker.
I bake white bread for my husband with the addition of dry yeast, I also don't use sourdough.
And another question. Do you put dough for the night? Or is it just feeding zakvpski.

Irochka, personally, I keep sourdough only because rye bread turns out much better on it than on commercial yeast and does not require improvers, acidifiers and other nonsense. But I make wheat only on ordinary yeast.
I feed the sourdough for the night, in the morning I put the dough on it for 3-4 hours, then knead the dough on the dough. This is my favorite recipe, you can do it without dough

Sveta and what is your favorite recipe for rye hdeb, share.

We love this one the most.
Borodino bread, according to the recipe of 1939
Still very tasty
1939 Rye Custard Bread and
Rye custard bread "Spicy"
If you read these recipes, you can see that they are very close in technology, differ only in the nuances of the composition. It's just that we like custard breads, you may have a different taste, but rye sourdough, in my opinion, makes any rye bread real

I ask if something has happened to the leaven. I have the most common eternal rye leaven. Usually in the refrigerator. And then I changed the manufacturer of rye flour and it changed its smell, I decided to update it and leaving one spoonful and adding equal parts of flour and water began to "multiply" it. Stands at room temperature, the house is cool. The smell is strange, there is no sourness characteristic of it, but at the same time it is not sharp and unpleasant, I also cannot name it, but after a couple of days a film appeared on the surface, very similar in consistency to kombucha.
What is it and is it possible to bake bread with such a leaven. In this case, the starter itself is active, the contents are quite porous.

[irinushka]

irinushkaand how many days did your leaven ripen the very first time? Today I have 5 days, I do everything according to the scheme, the whole forum has climbed)))))) but she is in no hurry to get up (((

Hello everybody! In the Caucasus, we make a drink (called booze) from hops and malt. Since last year, I have stored 100 grams of thick starter culture from this drink in my refrigerator. It is so strong that if you put 1 teaspoon of this starter in 2 liters of water and add a pinch of malt flour, fermentation will begin. I am wondering if this leaven can be used for baking?

Advise for a novice starter with what sourdough to start so that it will surely work out and at the same time to which recipe to apply it (you need a little bread)

[Olj4ik]

Olj4ik, what is called lean bread (consists of flour, water, salt, leaven), with additives in the form of butter, sugar, etc. baked goods.
I would recommend the everlasting rye.

But I only like rye and rye-wheat bread on rye sourdough. I don't like sour wheat

[Mayunchik]

Mayunchik, on whatever our forum users bake bread! And on liquid home-made yeast, and on a variety of sourdoughs, including hop. So I think you should try

So I conducted an experiment, fed the starter culture of the highest grade and the first in different banks. On premium flour, the sourdough rises faster than 1 s. Although I read here on the site that if you need to slow down the rise, we feed the a / c, if you speed it up, then the flour is not bleached, useful. Someone can give an explanation from a scientific point of view. Just wondering.

Someone can give an explanation from a scientific point of view.

Is it possible not with a scientific one? Just relying on your observations of your own leavens:
There is not so much food for sourdough in the premium flour, I quickly ate everything and grew up demanding a new portion of food.
In flour of the first grade, as you noticed, it is useful, more delicious. Here she sits in a jar and eats, eats, eats, and there is still something to eat ...
In general, speculation is speculation, and I feed my wheat only the first grade. And I like the leaven, and it is cheaper.

Good day! I decided to make sourdough from sprouted rye. I understand that there are many starter cultures, and possibly more convenient ones to make. But this is exactly what I wanted to try to do.

Did video instructions.

First, I sprouted rye, then grinded it in a blender until smooth, poured it into the jar, closed it with a lid and punched two narrow holes there so that there was air access.

Then I put it in a warm place. The next day, she already gave off a harsh smell of yeast or peroxidized wine.
I added 2-3 tablespoons of peeled rye flour and again put it in a warm place until the next day. And so 4 -5 fed.

For all the time, the leaven did not become the same as in the video and in some photos - as porous as a sponge. I have it as homogeneous as liquid semolina porridge and its smell has remained something in between sour yeast and peroxidized wine, tartar.

Twice, on the 4th or 5th day, I even tried to feed it with ordinary white flour. I thought it might become porous and not homogeneous like semolina.

In general, what's wrong with her, is it normal? Bubbles are light only on the surface.

Thank you!

Good afternoon everyone! After reading so much about sourdough, having learned a bunch of details, she enthusiastically set about growing sourdough with the main goal of baking homemade Borodino bread. And although I seem to follow all the recommendations, I fail all the time. I tried to grow it on different flours, different varieties and qualities, all in vain. Exactly on the third day, she dies. It turned out that white wheat flour is completely unsuitable - as soon as I add it to the mixture, everything immediately dies. And it grows well on rye. Therefore, now I am trying two options: the first is an eternal rye sourdough just on flour. The second option - on the first day I added a little rye malt. (50 grams of flour and 5 grams of malt). I have a few questions, I hope the knowledgeable people on the forum will tell me, since I have been trying for several weeks, and everything does not work out as it should ...
1) I make the leaven and then feed it at the rate of 1: 1 flour and water. It turns out quite thick, much thicker than sour cream, as described on the forum. Like a good thick dough. It is right? The moisture content of flour may vary, so maybe consistency is more important than proportions?
2) a very hard, dense crust is formed all the time at the top. I take it off, continue to feed it. But maybe it does not allow the leaven to rise? now trying a plastic bag with holes, as written here on the forum.
3) when the leaven grows well (as I did on the second day), it increases in volume by 4 or 5 times, then falls off. What does it mean? Then you can continue to grow it or is it better to start again? Should it be brought to such a large growth or should it be fed earlier?
Thank you!!

[Anya]

Anya, I grew several starter cultures from different flours, overfeed from one flour to another, and so on. I will answer you based on my experience and what I read.
1. I grow my main cultures in a 1: 1 ratio. Rye, too, at first turns out to be thick, in the process of fermentation it liquefies. So don't worry about it.
2. If the leaven is strong, then no crust will interfere with it and sometimes even a lid)) and so that the crust does not form, cover with a towel or foil with holes, as you wrote. I even cover it with a plastic lid and it feels great.
3. Sourdough always goes through several stages of its ripening and on the forum they wrote about this many times. At first, it begins to grow sharply, but an unpleasant odor may also appear due to bad, unnecessary bacteria. Then she usually freezes (1 to 3 days), but this does not mean that she is dead. Certain processes simply take place there and the smell usually improves during this period. Well, and the last stage, when the leaven starts bubbling again and smells delicious. Here is where she is ready.

Ira, thank you very much for the explanation! Indeed, on the first day my experimental starter culture increased slightly, and with malt it doubled. On the second day, both almost did not increase at all. Now they are on the third day, they have grown very little, about 1/5 in half a day.

Another question about the temperature regime, which is also a problem. It's cold in my house this time of year, about 18 degrees. It is impossible to find a place that is warm, without drafts and with a constantly maintained temperature. For advice on the internet, I use an oven. I tried these techniques, tell me which one is better or which one can you still try?
- I put it on a router - an Internet device that is always warm. Stands in an open place, drafts, the jar warms up unevenly.
- put in the oven with the backlight on. The temperature is low, but stable, about 22 grams, it grows poorly (and the dough cannot be soaked, nothing grows, even with yeast).
- put in the oven after preheating it at a low temperature and then cooling down to a comfortable temperature of about 30-35 grams. Grows great! But these conditions are highly volatile. take it out every few hours, reheat the oven, put it on again. Each time, the end temperature is also slightly different, since I do not have a thermometer. At night everything cools down for a few hours, of course.

I read somewhere that you can put a tea light down in the oven to raise the temperature a little. What are you using? is there an option that will work on any farm? Should I purchase a thermometer for more accurate temperature control?
Thanks for all the tips!

[Anya]

Anya, it is difficult for me to advise any method, because in my apartment it is 28-29, and in the oven with a light bulb is 32 degrees. You can try to wrap it up together with plastic bottles in which warm water is poured or a heating pad to come up with and wrap it up next to it as well. There are special proofers that maintain a certain temperature, but this is a financial issue.
You can also try to grow the starter culture according to Chad Robertson, it is just grown at a temperature of 18-20 degrees. I raised, but somehow we did not work well with her))) and so, many praise. But this is wheat leaven. I use rye for rye

[Ira]

Ira, thanks, understood. This means that the main thing is to maintain the temperature around 28-32 degrees. I will try your advice with heating pads. Thank you!! Most importantly, it looks like I need a thermometer.

Since everything grows so slowly for me, what should I do if there is no growth for many days? I follow the scheme described here, when in the first 3-4 days new portions of flour are added (say, every day, 100 g of flour and 100 g of water), and then after the 4th day they start throwing out the excess, leaving the same 100 g of sourdough and adding 100 gr and 100 gr. What should I do? keep adding until it starts to grow somehow? Or strictly follow the scheme and throw away the excess on day 4?

[Anya]

Anya, I acted differently. She grew some kind of leaven and did not throw anything away at all, just then when the microflora was balanced, it took the excess and put them into action. In some cases, threw it away. You can take only 100 every day, if that's more convenient for you. I read somewhere that initially it is better to take the proportion of 100 grams per 100 grams, no less. Supposedly in this case, a better biological balance of the bacteria we need is obtained. But I also raised in smaller proportions, initially I took not 100, but 20 grams of flour and water and everything worked out.
How slow is your growth? After all, you said that on the second day it increased 4 times. So it's not all bad. Maybe you just entered a phase of calm, when good microorganisms crowd out bad ones? What day is your leaven now? My rye became usable for 5 days, for wheat it may take longer

[Ira]

Ira, yes, on the first day or two there was a good growth (different experiments showed growth on the first or second day). But then everything stopped and eventually died. The reason for this was most likely white refined flour. Now I taste exclusively rye flour. The smell is still good and there are some bubbles. Hopefully, as you say, there is now a slowdown phase (third day for today). But it was not clear to me whether during the deceleration phase it was necessary to throw out the surplus or keep adding? If thrown away, it means more dilution of the multiplied bacteria. And I seem to have a few of them, so what is probably worth adding for now so that they grow? I started with 50g and continue to add 50:50.

[Anya]

Anya, here the question is also this ... the feeding scheme usually goes 1: 1: 1, that is, 1 part of leaven, 1 part of water and 1 part of flour. If you mixed 50 grams each, you only have 100.The next day you have to feed these 100 100 grams of water and 100 flour, respectively, on day 3 you already have 300 grams of sourdough, which you need to feed 300 grams of water and 300 flour. In order not to transfer so much flour, every day a part of the sourdough is taken and fed with the same part of flour and water (in your case, 50 g each and fed them 50 g of flour and 50 water)

all clear. In some posts it was written that they added 100 grams, let's say to the total amount, which grew every day ... In some places it was written 1: 1: 1, as you say. I will do it as you recommend. I will select 50 g of sourdough and feed 50 + 50.

But the main question now remains: if the sourdough grows very little, still take away the excess and feed it according to the scheme? Or let her grow up, say a day and a half or two days, and then feed her?
Thank you very much! These details are very important !!

[Anya]

Anya, depends on the leaven. If it is written to feed every day, then feed everyone, regardless of height. I grew the last wheat, there, from the 2nd day of feeding, they began 2 times a day.
You are not an experience, everything will work out for you. Perhaps not the first time
Even at the expense of temperature, of course, at the beginning of the excretion, it is desirable 25, but I think this is not as critical as it seems. Mine, though already bred, and grows in the refrigerator after feeding and the low temperature is not a hindrance to it. And some even upset the dough in the refrigerator.

[Anya]

Anya, try to get a thermometer and check the temperature in your ... toilet. Do you have a locker there?
Usually in such a cabinet there is a very stable temperature (I have 26 * C) and there are no drafts.
And about feeding: you need to feed the leaven with the amount of flour and water at least not less than the amount of the leaven, that is, at least 1: 1 (100 g of leaven + 100 g of feeding (50 water + 50 flour)) But 1: 2 is better ...
I understand that if there is a lot of leaven, then it is a pity to throw it away. In this case, you can use it for baking even at the cooking stage. That is, knead the leaven + flour and liquid according to the recipe (but so that the flour and liquid are in equal amounts), then take the initial amount of the starter from this batch, and knead the rest according to the recipe, using yeast, if the leaven is still weak.
Good luck!

Thank you so much for all the advice and support! Will definitely buy a thermometer and check the locker. Today it is quite warm in my oven - my hand feels warm.
On the third day, there was almost no growth at all, I threw out a part and, leaving 100 g of sourdough, fed it (50 + 50), as described in the diagram. The smell was good, I can't say it was unpleasant. But the one that was originally with malt has a rather sour smell of spoiled dough. During the day, both sourdoughs became more liquid, bubbled inside, but they almost did not increase in volume. That is, the process seems to be going on, though what it is is not entirely clear.

But the reception with the package at the top completely solved the problem of the crust. Only a slight darkening was on top, and there was no crust!

Good afternoon everyone! My growing process continues, and not without success :) So far I have gone through 8 feeding cycles, the last 4 times according to the scheme 100: 100: 100g. In the last two cycles, the starter cultures doubled in volume, smelled rather sour, like strong kvass, and at the end they dropped a little. The last cycle took only 12 hours. That is, the leavens grow rapidly now, but they only double in size, not more.
This is normal? What to do next with them? Are they ready or not yet?

[Anya]

Anya, in principle, you can already try to bake something. Do you have rye?
Feed as it begins to fall off, so as not to oxyderate. If it comes out too often, then increase the frequency of feeding, for example, not 1: 1: 1, but 1: 1.5: 1.5 or 1: 2: 2

Ira, thanks for the advice! I will do it in a different proportion.
And I saved the surplus, it turned out quite a lot - 500 g of sourdough. I added 100 and 100 grams of water and flour and put them in the refrigerator for half a day. What can you try to bake simple? Borodinsky is somehow scary to bake, the recipe is complicated.I tried to bake it with yeast (while the flour was 80 percent rye, and 20% wheat). The dough sprouted on yeast perfectly, but when baking, it fell off and inside it was raw and liquid, like raw dough ... I added vinegar according to the recipe to acidify the dough, as required for rye flour, but still nothing came of it.
Please advise what kind of simple bread you can try? I have a bread maker, I bake ordinary bread in it. I bake in the oven too ...
Thank you!

[Anya Novichok]

Anya Novichok, try this
Sourdough bread "Universal" (Linadoc)

[Anya]

Anya, I bake this recipe darnitsky https://Mcooker-enn.tomathouse.com/index.php@option=com_smf&topic=100332.0 always turned out the first time.

[Ira, Sveta,]

Ira, Sveta, Thanks for the recipes !!! can't wait to taste both breads!

Great news! Darnitsa bread was a success, and I made two variations (there was a lot of leaven): with and without yeast. Both turned out to be excellent consistency inside! And the smell and taste are excellent - like in the old days! The holes are excellent, the desired fluffiness, everything is fine! but for some reason, when baking at 240 degrees, everything burns. I tried to reduce the time by 5 minutes, anyway, they burned badly outside. The oven is new, it measures the temperature well ... I am surprised that rye bread is baked at such a high temperature. How much can it be reduced?

I will try the recipe for Universal Bread in the coming days, and maybe soon Borodinsky By the way, what recipe for Borodinsky do you use?
Thank you all again! Thanks to your practical advice, I finally did it !!!

[Anya]

Anya, glad you did it! At 240, my top was very fried too. It all depends on the oven. In my own bake at 200-210 minutes 45-50. Try lowering the temperature too.
I will throw off the link to Borodinsky's recipe in a personal I think you will succeed.

[Anya,]

Anya, Try to bake the first 25 minutes at 230 * C or even 220 * under a lid or with abundant steam, then + 15 minutes without a lid / steam at 180 * C.
At the same time, control the real temperature in the oven, since the temperature on the regulator scale does not always coincide with the actual one.
In addition, if a convector is constantly working in your oven, then it is advisable to lower the temperature relative to the recommended one by another 10 *.
Good luck!

[Anya Novichok]

By the way, what Borodinsky recipe do you use?

Anya Novichok, try this one

Borodino bread, according to the recipe of 1939 (Mikulishna)

He is our favorite!

Thanks everyone for the advice, I'll try to play with the temperature. How do you provide steam in the oven?
And many thanks for the recipes !!

[Anya]

Anya, either sprinkle the top of the bread with water, or put a container with water on the bottom of the oven in advance and take out the container 10-15 minutes later after planting the bread in the oven.

Hello! Tell me, when is 100 g of flour and 100 ml of water indicated in a sourdough recipe, is this amount measured by weight or by volume? Thanks in advance for your answers))) And what does mature leaven mean?

You need to learn how to make leaven ...

[Elena82]

100 g flour and 100 ml water this amount is measured by weight or volume

Elena82 For water, the volume of 100 ml is equal to the mass of 100 g, measure as you like. But be sure to weigh the flour.

what does mature leaven mean?

This is a well-fed and matured leaven at its peak.

I made the everlasting leaven in two jars. In one I mixed water and flour in the same volume, the consistency is watery, and does not rise, only small bubbles. And in another jar I mixed water and flour by weight, but it is thick, even thicker than the dough for pancakes, as they say here, but it went up 2.5 times somewhere. It's just that I am confused by the consistency, that it is thick, or is it the way it should be? And again, the question is: is the leaven already considered mature? Can I put it in the refrigerator (I found a shelf where about 11 °) and use it as a starter? Forgive me for being annoying, I'm just a full "kettle" in baking for the time being, and I need sourdough bread and whole grain flour)))

[Elena82]

Elena82, the mixture of flour and water is at first thick as putty. Gradually it will become thinner.
And I didn't understand, you Mixed water and flour once and that's it? Then it is not yet a leaven at all.