Cabbage pies

[eye]

eye,

What a beauty, Tanya !!!

I'm going to make pies. Everything, I decided, do not dissuade, otherwise I will give in))!

[Scarecrow]

Scarecrow, Natasha!
I'll tell you more! I decided to try your "pre-autolysis" method when baking bread. (sorry, of course, not about pies). And the flour was not very good, and the yeast was not quite fresh (on the verge of an expiration date), and even added flax and whole grain to wheat flour. And the result is excellent! The dough is fluffy, soft, alive! The method works! And how it works!
Natasha! Thank you, thank you! Holiday greetings!

[Want to know everything]

Want to know everything,

And I even bake it in a bread maker. I painted it, no? Old age is not a joy))). I wrote somewhere, but where? ...)))

[Scarecrow]

Scarecrow, Natasha!
I made your pies and did according to the recipe from the first page, I read Temka when I could, but I missed a lot. And when I came across your discussions with Tanya-Fanya, as it turns out you can do it in a different order. Interested ... try shaft first on pies, it turned out very well. Then I decided that the rule would work for another test as well! "Urrah! It worked!" So, it’s not the teacher’s memory that fails, the students do not have enough time for the whole mat. part to explore!
and ... We are waiting for new discoveries!

[Want to know everything]

Want to know everything, tell me, on which pages is this discussion, or can I briefly describe a different order? ..

[vesna04]

vesna04, we read 93 pages of a long message from Chuchelka about autolysis.

Tanyusha! Thanks for the support!
And thanks for taking note of this interesting "feature" of the recipe (page 93). I myself would not have noticed such valuable information in a hurry!

And thank you for the pleasant communication and warm company.
All these Chuchin pies unite people!
Scarecrow

Nata, went to put your dough, there is already a filling - cabbage and minced meat! Mine demanded, like those ...! For a long time I did not understand which ones, and then it came!

The pies are good! I baked in my son's oven, Siemens, of course, bakes well! And the dough is fabulous. I slightly reduced the sugar, as I specially made the filling sharper with meat and cabbage. Slightly crumpled during transportation, the dough turned out to be airy. Thanks again for the recipe! Happy New Year!

[Rada-dms]

Rada-dms,

What a beauty! Happy New Year!

And I even bake it in a bread maker. I painted it, no? Old age is not a joy))). I wrote somewhere, but where? ...)))

Girls, can anyone save it - helpeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee I want to go to the bread maker!

[Svetlenki]

Svetlenki,

Read from here.

https://Mcooker-enn.tomathouse.com/index.php@option=com_smf&topic=18396.0

Posted Monday 16 Jan 2017 10:27 AM

Here, I have collected the entire conversation on improving the kneading technique in one post and I will ask the moderators to give a link to it from the recipe.

Try the following technology if you're still baking. First mix the ingredients for the dough (except for butter and yeast) until more or less homogeneous. And leave alone for 40 minutes (this is autolysis). Makfa takes less time, like many foreign brands of flour. The rest are long autolysis. Put only the yolk from the egg, exclude the protein completely. After that add yeast, oil and everything in the usual way, as described in the recipe. Since butter is also a liquid from the point of view of baking (and we did not put it in), the lump of dough after autolysis will be tight and it will not be elementary to mix in the butter at first. HP would be of great help here as a kneader. Do not melt the oil! Add simply softened at room temperature. You should have a thicker, better gluten-free dough. It will most likely require a little more fluid.

When baking.Place a baking sheet or pan with a non-melting handle at the bottom of the oven. Heat it up with the oven. When loading a baking sheet with pies (sprinkle pies with water from a spray), splash about a glass of boiling water on the lower heated container and close the oven immediately so that the steam does not go out. Splash gently, do not poke your hands inside, just splash. The water will instantly evaporate with a noise so as not to burn yourself.

This is not dancing with tambourines, actually. These are manipulations that seriously improve the dough. It will work without them, but the result will be worse. Yolk - improves the dough, allows it to keep its shape well (lecithin swells), protein - "dries", makes it tighter (so I excluded it). The oil prevents gluten from forming and swelling (it envelops molecules and prevents them from wetting and connecting into gluten chains). Therefore, the dough is much coarser and crumbled. Steam baking - allows the product to rise and not dry it out at the initial stage (the humidity in the oven is high) and only then start baking.

I, using all these techniques, just quite clearly understand what I am doing and what I want to achieve. They are not from the ceiling and I follow them myself. Because I want it to be super)). Although it can be quick and just fine. Based on your initial data / questions, I am trying to correct. I almost always bake with autolysis, especially bread. At the same time, I add butter later (in my opinion, in this topic I wrote about this and in bread it is usually only 1 tbsp. L., But even it plays a role). I bake with steam ALWAYS. Both bread and pies / rolls. Previously, just as I described to you, now I have an oven with steam. Even water and the amount of salt can seriously change the dough. Hard water produces more gluten in the dough (it is tighter), distilled water is much less (it is much softer).
HP Panasonic allows you not to fool too much: in the "Pelmeni" mode, the dough is simply mixed, then butter, yeast are added to the bucket and the dough program is set. All. Panasonic takes a long time to equalize the temperature, that is, it just stands there and does nothing: it heats the ingredients to a single temperature. At this time, autolysis takes place. And then she makes the dough herself. If you have HP, try this. It will be clean, but the result will improve dramatically. If your HP does not have a period of temperature equalization and when the program is turned on, it immediately starts to knead, then just wait these 40 minutes, add oil / yeast and turn on the program, let it work.

Nobody stands still and I also improve my skills.)))

If you do as it is written on the first page, you need to put the yeast. There is no aging for 40 minutes, there is simply kneading and butter is added at the end of the batch. Kneading is also an extended piece of time and takes 20 minutes. BUT! As it turned out, our domestic flour requires much more time for the swelling and development of gluten. The same Finnish Nordic, from which I baked before and now sometimes - those kneading 20 minutes are enough. But domestic brands do not. Therefore, first coarse mixing (wetting) and swelling. And only then - batch. To have an excellent result, you must first let the flour swell and only then mix it well, so the subsequent fermentation does not count: the flour will swell, but there will be no kneading and a beautiful / durable "frame" will not be formed. In the meantime, the flour swells - we do not need fermentation, in principle, so we do not put yeast. Autolysis has passed - we put the active ingredient - yeast and everything that would interfere with good swelling - oil. That's why you got what you got))). Well done, you read everything carefully, delved into and got the result. I'm sure you noticed a difference in the surface of the dough. In the absence of autolysis, it is bumpy when cut. With autolysis - like a silk scarf. Yes? It was? This is properly developed gluten. Now you know what she looks like.

I will ask the moderators to put the information in the first post.

[Nat]

Yolk - improves the dough, allows it to keep its shape well, protein - "dries", so I excluded it.

Nat, that is, do you recommend putting protein in the dough at all?

Does this also apply to yeast-free dough?

Macfa takes less time

Tusthey say Makfa also all different comes across ...

Explain, please, and how exactly to understand how long this or that flour requires for autolysis?

Yesterday I was kneading the dough on this bread according to the scheme described by you above, no words !!!

The difference is just heaven and earth !!!

Thank you very much for explaining / writing everything so clearly !!!

P.S. Tus, but for a mixed dough, for example, for wheat-rye, can and should this method be applied?

[Inna]

Inna, I'm not Tutya, but will Mona answer?
for ryan it is not necessary, it will not develop gluten, there will be no gluten threads

Added Thursday, 19 Jan 2017 10:20 AM

Nata, I also read this moment (knitsa Street of Fresh Bread, somewhere someone admired her, I decided to see it) so they recommend adding salt after autolysis, also for better kneading and development of gluten

Added Thursday, January 19, 2017 10:30 AM

Nata, I am bringing you another Thank you from your parents - your mother cooked your dough yesterday, pies with blueberries from the freezer, baked in the Miracle Oven, they always turn out so good in it

[Nata]

Nata, for "especially gifted" plies. The egg, which is written in the recipe, is a) for lubrication b) in the dough or c) in the end we put only the yolk from it into the dough. Confused, litter

Zhanna, in item 2 about manual kneading:

... Drive in an egg

an egg in the dough .. but after improving Nata now proposes not to put the whole in the dough, but only the yolk)

Added Thursday, 19 Jan 2017 11:51

it's okay, sometimes you get confused

[Katena]

it is not necessary for ryan, his gluten will not develop

Katena, I meant wheat-rye, I thought about one thing, but wrote about something else ...

[Crochet]

Crochet,

Innuska, I will not be on the phone - I will write you my thoughts on the questions. To be more detailed and ceiling.

[Nata]

Innuska, I will not be on the phone - I will write you my thoughts on the questions. To be more detailed and ceiling.

Nata, and also did you study / have you seen the change in the amount of yeast depending on the temperature or time of fermentation of the dough / dough. Now I'm talking about adapting the recipe for cold proofing, increasing the time of proofing ... After all, the yeast, logically, must then be reduced ... I'm looking for something, but so far it's hard to find a clear formula-calculation from someone ...

Sorry for the recipe - I can move to the blog with this question, if you have anything to advise me.

[Nata]

Nata, correcting the inaccuracy) she baked a pie with blueberries and raspberries in two layers, and I had a grate and petals on top: girl_in_dreams: she called, she said, well, what kind of Scarecrow is yours, well, what an airy and beautiful dough, give her thanks

today the parents have the 44th wedding anniversary, so they will feast and thank you

Added Thursday, 19 Jan 2017 2:02 PM

Oh, I write from the phone, I miss the letters
Nicho I answered here? right though?)

[Nat]

Nat, that is, do you recommend putting protein in the dough at all?

A bit wrong. Everything for their own purposes. Egg white improves taxa flour in bread dough. It is often used in wallpaper breads. It is used as an analogue of wheat gluten. This is how Russian bakers improved our flour in the 19th century. But at the same time it has the effect of making the dough more "rubbery" (or, as I called it - "dry"). For breads, especially whole grains, this is necessary. But the yolk also makes the product more lush due to the fact that it does not allow products made of weak flour to "creep away", the yolk lecithins swell and retain moisture, "collect" the dough. But there is no rubbery effect. It is still more suitable for products such as pies. Especially. that there were complaints of "dryness". Therefore, I excluded the protein.

Does this also apply to yeast-free dough?

What do you mean? Otherwise they call sourdough, soda, muffin, and so on ..

Tusthey say Makfa also all different comes across ...

Explain, please, and how exactly to understand how long this or that flour requires for autolysis?

No way. Empirically. I keep almost all my bread on autolysis. Minutes 30. The only thing is not to overdo it with excellent bread flour and manitoba additives. The dough is made very rubbery. One manitoba does not bake at all: its advantages begin to play against it - the rubberiness is just crazy, the workpiece does not inflate due to the fact that it cannot overcome a very tight and rubber frame (well, how to try to inflate a heating pad))). But this threatens few people. Almost no one has at their disposal manitoba and some kind of fancy / strong imported bread flour. All of ours can be passed through autolysis. She doesn't get any worse. I tried many different ones.

P.S. Tus, but for a mixed dough, for example, for wheat-rye, can and should this method be applied?

I use it very much. Rye flour doesn’t care, it’s almost gluten-free, it’s all these technologies like a dead poultice. But mixed bread contains little wheat (and therefore little gluten), so we are all the more interested in "extracting" gluten as much as possible. After all, you yourself were convinced from your own experience: the initial "inclinations" of flour are not a guarantee of an excellent collection of products in the product. Certain technologies must be applied. I often add manitoba (the strongest flour, where the gluten concentration is naturally higher than usual). And it also happens that I knead and stand on autolysis only the wheat part of rye-wheat bread. And only then I fill up everything further and add the rye bread program. Because what is the point of driving all the components ... While the equalization is going on (I have a Panasonic), wheat flour is saturated with liquid.

[Tuska]

Tuska, thanks, respected !!!

What do you mean? And that is what they call sourdough, soda, and muffin, and so on ..

But I had everything in mind, well, except that, except for the starter, I did not reach it yet ...

Dough, of course, you can cut as much as you want - you still knead it later in the dough. And here the finished dough itself is not so sadistic, but a piece of 4 even and equal - quite. All the same, then further grind on pies.

Tus, and why ?

What bad / terrible thing can happen if I immediately divide the cold dough into the required number of pieces?

It seemed to me that this is even better, the dough for future pies will be warmed faster and more evenly ... Isn't it?

Teach us, teach (s) ...

[Crochet]

Crochet,

In principle, if there is already a clean cut into pies, then immediately divide the ready-made cold dough into pies. It's just that the ready-made dough needs a minimum of manipulation - so that it does not overwhelm it many times (either cut it like that, then blinded it, then unstuck it)) Dough can be shredded as you like))). But if you are already cutting into portions, of course. Cover with foil so as not to dry out and let them warm themselves.

[Tuska]

Thank you!

Yesterday I kneaded dough with autolysis, from 1 kg. flour (Ryazanochka), half of the dough immediately after kneading was sent to the refrigerator, from the second half she baked 19 pies the dough was divided by 50 g.), but what !!!

They are so ... so ... they are all so simple !!!

My husband lost 10 pieces in one go ...

Tuska, well, you, well, thank you, my friend !!!

But I had everything in mind, well, except that, except for the starter, I did not reach it yet ...

Inn, these are all different types of dough from which you can make completely different product characteristics)). Starter - it is bread. Even if it is a cake, pannetone with sourdough - gluten is needed so that there is no excessive crumbling, etc. For products that are very rich and with fillers, they often use manitoba in order to somehow compensate for such a number of "additives" that interfere with the development of gluten. But the cake / biscuit - gluten is needed there very moderately.Especially for this, use weak (confectionery) flour or weaken good baking flour (distilled water, replacing part of the flour with starch). Because the product should be tender, and not bite like a French bun. This means that there can be no talk of any autolysis. Pastry chefs even have a professional term - a tight sponge cake. This is what it is - too rubbery, dense. With a "bread" effect)).
Soda is not only a cupcake, but also bread. Soda bread needs gluten. Because in bread we do not care about the source of gases / baking powder - yeast or the chemical reaction of soda - but we need a framework (gluten) to hold the gas. Then the product will turn out to be lush, porous. That is, we will use autolysis again.
Well, something like this ... I hope I didn’t confuse it and it will come in handy for you.

10 pieces??? And not cracked ?? did you check ??)))

[Crochet]

Crochet, here I go nuts from this Autolysis. I take my favorite components of the test, only the process and sequence are according to the Scarecrow Method. So this Her autolysis really works wonders. And those yeast baked goods, which earlier seemed to be the limit of perfection and my pride, now turns out to be wrong. But pies and challah with autolysis are yeah! I am proud of myself without false modesty! For me - a discovery!
Scarecrow, once again thank you for not just sharing your experience, but also finding a way to clearly convey.

[Tuska]

Tuska , well, it's just okay to go nuts, how interesting you write!

Taking off my hat ...

10 pieces??? And not cracked ?? did you check ??)))

Count up, all the seams are in place, none of them came apart ...

And he was still modest ...

No hesitation, I took the last 4 pieces with me to work ...

I left 5 pieces from the master's shoulder to the girls ...

Well, nothing), the girls still bake today), although the remnants of their figures, both two, are contraindicated ...

Added Friday 20 Jan 2017 09:36 AM

And those yeast baked goods, which used to seem like the limit of perfection and my pride, now turns out to be wrong

PPKS, Tanyush , one to one the same thoughts visit !!!

Cover with foil so as not to dry out and let them warm themselves.

Tus, and here, by the way), how to determine that the dough is warmed up and you can already start working with it?

Pieces of 40-60 gr. probably half an hour is enough?

Another thing I always forget to clarify is Nat, you are when molding a pie, when you collect the dough into a knot, into a ball in the manner of forming round buns don't you roll it up?

We just put the edges of the cake together and start kneading, right)?

And then suddenly, for so many years I have not been forming the pies correctly ...

yeah, Nata writes ... you read ... just like crystal mountain water you drink ... and everything is clear and understandable ... it seems like you already know something of this ... but he will formulate it like this ... I feel the most pleasant emotions when reading .. thanks for the thousandth time

Girls, here I am with pies !!! I bake this recipe for the second time. The first one was made according to the text from the first page, and the second time using a new method with autolysis (yeast and fats at the end), the dough really turns out different ... the first time it feels cooler, but the second time it is more liquid, tender or something (I do not know how to explain it)


But the pies are delicious !!!!

[Crochet]

Crochet,

I think that half an hour will be enough. Determine by the state - they started to puff up - the fermentation process went well, it means that they are warm and bastard))).

Nope, I do not roll up. Roll them out anyway - why a perfectly round shape? I don't even roll up the rolls)).

Oh, they praised me terribly ... But it seems to me that I am an average beginner)). True, without breaking. That's right they say that the more you know, the more it seems that you don't know anything!))

Added Friday 20 Jan 2017 12:59 PM

Nata, and also did you study / have you seen the change in the amount of yeast depending on the temperature or time of fermentation of the dough / dough. I am now talking about adapting the recipe for cold proofing, increasing the proofing time ... After all, the yeast, logically, must then be reduced ...I'm looking for something, but so far it’s bad to find a clear calculation formula from someone ...

Sorry for the recipe - I can move to the blog with this question, if you have anything to advise me.

Oh, I missed your message. I understood the question, but I did not meet such dependence.
Why should you reduce it for cold proofing? In cold proofing, the duration of the process is compensated for by low temperatures (the process of fermentation and the growth of yeast cells is much slower, not like at normal room temperature). The result is the identity of the identity. I use the refrigerator often. Especially often - for dough (Reinhart). But there is quite a usual amount of yeast.

[Olyatara]

Olyatarawhat handsome men! All are equal, like twins- :)

And it seems to me that I am an average beginner))

Dear Queen Mother!
Your Grace, does your modesty seem excessive to you?
And I am convinced, and the girls will support me, that it's time for you to systematize and present all your technological gadgets in "one place", that is, create a separate topic for dough, flour, etc., because all this is lost on various topics , and the information is paramount, and then give links to the current, such as see the Chuchelka Code, Art No., p.№, pn No., tyzhurist!

[Nata]

Why should you reduce it for cold proofing? In cold proofing, the duration of the process is compensated for by low temperatures (the process of fermentation and the growth of yeast cells is much slower, not like at normal room temperature). The result is the identity of the identity.

Nata, I left for the old dough now mostly - I really like the taste of bread and there is little dancing with baked goods in KhP. So, when I made 1 scoop per 500 grams of flour according to the standard amount of yeast, the bread rose too quickly, I even had to interrupt the program ... And the roof was very wrinkled (there were too many bubbles by the end of the proofing under it). In general, I began to reduce the yeast - the result began to be liked more.

And then I came across such a tablet in the book of Hammelman



I don’t read any more, because there’s no time

I thought maybe you already know all this and, as soon as I ask you, you will quickly tell me everything

I completely agree with the girls, thank you very much for teaching us and sharing your knowledge

[Scarecrow]

Scarecrow, Natasha, brought the next ... * your * your pies!
Thank you again from my men and from me. Made with cabbage and fruit ~ apple-plum. Yummy !!!

[mamusi]

mamusi,

I decided to make eclairs. Because it is impossible to look at such beauty))). Today I was already picking with yeast dough (I baked baguettes), so I'll switch to custard))).

[Scarecrow]

Scarecrow, read and read and could not resist! Reclassification of unscheduled pies I did it according to a new scheme, I liked it very much
Thank you for teaching such wisdom

I'll switch to custard))).

Aaaaa! Teasing!)))

(I just crawled out of the kitchen ... e-mine! ... Well, as long as possible)

Hello! And my pies on the layering did not rise, as the kids were, and remained for half an hour on a baking sheet under a towel. And by the way, in a bucket of HP, the dough did not increase at all much (and it was an hour after kneading on dumplings, as in the original recipe).

I will now put it in the oven as it is, what can I do. But it would be good for the future to understand what I missed

[Olga]

Olga, a joint of yeast
But don't stop there. Change the yeast and you will have downy pies. Will definitely be!

yeast joint

yeast joint

I agree with Lyudmiloly completely. Next time, just take yeast, warm water and a little sugar, and in 15 minutes it will be clear whether the yeast is working or not. The hat will be so fluffy .. that means I'm working. no cap, knows bad yeast.

pies didn't go up

Olya!
Just yesterday a similar situation happened - I really knew that the yeast was suspicious and untested, and I made the dough for pizza, not for pies.Although she did it using the technology of "preliminary autolysis", as Natasha taught.
The consistency of the dough was perfect - pliable, squeaky! I left it up, although I was 80% sure that it would not fit. Until recently, I believed in miracles ... but miracles do not happen with old yeast The dough was still silky and pliable, but absolutely without signs of fermentation. They ate the pizza, no one noticed the catch. I threw out the yeast ...
You did everything right, but the yeast turned out to be bad
Use the girls' advice - check the liveliness of the yeast and everything will become clear!

[alcarina]

alcarina,

Olya, there is a problem with yeast, no options. Replace. Do not use after the expiration date and store only in the refrigerator after the store.

[Scarecrow]

ScarecrowNata has a full infirmary at home - the junior brought some kind of infection from school, everything is in a tumble with a temperature, but there is no bread at home. There is no power to bother with doughs. I crawled a little to the kitchen, muddied your dough and put it in the KhP for baking. It's a miracle what a delicious bun turned out. I've been baking the last days just like that. Bo silaniyaki is dumb.

[Orshanochka]

Orshanochka,

Now all over the place all this rubbish walks, do not bother with the poet. Good result? So that's great. Now more rest and relaxation. And cooking will wait.

And I came with a thank you! Natasha, the dough is simply gorgeous, this is exactly what I love and have been looking for for a long time !! Class! And considering that I can't make friends with butter dough, and here the first time and such beauty! I can't get enough of it! Thank you very much !!!
And here are my first-borns with cabbage and potatoes! This is all that we managed to take)

[Albinka (Alya)]

Albinka (Alya),

When you succeed in something, you really can't admire it. I recently sculpted cakes))). Cream sprinkled on them from a bag of confectionery: I stand looking at them - ah!)))

Chuch, I brought you the pies my five-year-old daughter made! I did it today with apples, but the trifle got stuck and asked for the dough. Well, I gave her and here's the result)! Honestly, buns-in

Photo of the up-legged, please forgive)

[Irina F]

Irina F,

Buns? Just round? They seem like donuts!)))