Old Como bread (Pane di Como Antico) in the oven

The second day I think about this bread. Oh, it's not good.

The second day I think about this bread. Oh, it's not good.

Yes, there is something to think about. I baked a lot of different breads, but my better half called this one the best (from the cafeteria) that she had tried.

Although bread looks so unapproachable, it is actually very agreeable - it forgives many mistakes. The main difficulty, as I understand it, is molding. It is not for nothing that the Italians call him French. This is because the final proofing must be done on a towel with supporting folds along the loaf. Just like baguettes are parted.

The second day I think about this bread. Oh, it's not good.

What to think? You have to coward!

Peks !!! I've already tried it. The husband said that he agreed to eat this bread every day

Well. I am reporting. Bigu was delivered in the morning and it was ready in 8 hours, that is, it grew 4 times. So I started baking that very evening. Here's what happened.
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The bread is delicious. Not laborious at all, so let's bake. Since I bake all "white" breads mainly on first and second grade flour and whole grain flour, then of course I will experiment with this bread too.
But this bread was baked strictly according to the recipe.
Thank you!!!

And now the question has matured, striking in its intelligence, which means in the paragraph about the starter "grind yeast with flour." There are half a gram of them. How to rub them - down to the molecular component?

[2 Deva]

2 Deva

To your health! What a pot-bellied he is! It’s a pity that they didn’t keep the biga for at least a day ... Did you cut it still warm?

2 sweetka

The pressed yeast turns into a pea, so it is necessary to grind it with flour. You can, of course, dilute them with water, but I do not believe in this esotericism with their activation in warm water. I believe that if the yeast is normal (normal manufacturer, acceptable storage conditions and a sufficient shelf life), it will start working anyway

[2 Deva]

2 Deva

To your health! What a pot-bellied he is! It’s a pity that they didn’t keep the biga for at least a day ... Did you cut it still warm?

Yes, I was afraid that biga would ferment, so I began to bake in the evening. Next time I'll wait a day.
Yes, I was cutting it that had not yet cooled down.
Is pot-bellied bad?

but the longer the starter wanders, the more it turns out? We now have more than 30 heat in our apartments. Therefore, I want to understand the chemistry of the process. So that it doesn't turn into a mash there :)

[sweetka]

Hello, sweetka!
Here is my biga after 34 hours. We have 30+ stuck to the thermometer, day and night. She looks alive and healthy, the smell is warm, slightly wine-alcoholic-bread. The oven will be tomorrow morning. No mash.

Well. I am reporting. Bigu was delivered in the morning and it was ready in 8 hours, that is, it grew 4 times. So I started baking that very evening. Here's what happened.
🔗
🔗
🔗
🔗
The bread is delicious. Not laborious at all, so let's bake. Since I bake all "white" breads mainly on first and second grade flour and whole grain flour, then of course I will experiment with this bread too.
But this bread was baked strictly according to the recipe.
Thank you!!!

Deva, beautiful bread. And I didn't manage to do something so even, because the dough is liquid and it is not possible to betray the desired shape. Please share a secret

[Vilapo]

Vilapo
I do not know. There are no secrets. My dough did not work out very liquid, very sticky, yes. I did not break the recipe.
I greased the container in which I put the dough and my hands too. She formed a bar with oily hands too. Already the bread itself was parted on baking paper, and I wrapped the long edges in a roll and fastened with paper clips.And he somehow leveled off in this roll. That's all.

but the longer the starter wanders, the more it turns out? We now have more than 30 heat in our apartments. Therefore, I want to understand the chemistry of the process. So that it doesn't turn into a mash there :)

The biochemistry of the process is quite complex. Briefly, I can say that the main processes there are alcoholic and acidic fermentation. Alcoholic is the process that yeast provides, and acidic - lactic acid bacteria, yeast companions. There are also enzymes (enzymes, including those that are the result of fermentation reactions and those that are in flour) that also interact with everyone. This is exactly the second, acidic fermentation plus enzymes that give the bread its taste and smell (this is of course very simplified). True, during the fermentation of wheat bread, there are few lactic acid bacteria and usually the taste of bread is therefore sweet or unleavened. If you let the bige "sour" for a longer time, acid fermentation will pick up speed (this is also caused by placing it in the refrigerator), which will give the bread its wonderful taste and smell.

Yes, I was afraid that biga would ferment, so I began to bake in the evening. Next time I'll wait a day.
Yes, I was cutting it that had not yet cooled down.
Is pot-bellied bad?

No, not bad, on the contrary - great! The dough is very wet, almost liquid, so I was surprised how he came out with such a puzatron ...

[Vilapo]

Vilapo
I do not know. There are no secrets. My dough did not work out very liquid, very sticky, yes. I did not break the recipe.
I greased the container in which I put the dough and my hands too. She formed a bar with oily hands too. Already the bread itself was parted on baking paper, and I wrapped the long edges in a roll and fastened with paper clips. And he somehow leveled off in this roll. That's all.

A! Clear! The cylindrical shape of the bread was given to it by paper, which was like a case for it. Not even a case but a form! How ...

The biochemistry of the process is quite complex. Briefly, I can say that the main processes there are alcoholic and acidic fermentation. Alcoholic is the process that yeast provides, and acidic - lactic acid bacteria, yeast companions. There are also enzymes (enzymes, including those that are the result of fermentation reactions and those that are in flour) that also interact with everyone. This is exactly the second, acidic fermentation plus enzymes that give the bread its taste and smell (this is of course very simplified). True, during the fermentation of wheat bread, there are few lactic acid bacteria and usually the taste of bread is therefore sweet or unleavened. If you allow the bige to "sour" for a longer time, acid fermentation will pick up speed (this is also caused by placing it in the refrigerator), which will give the bread its wonderful taste and smell.

just the last sentence would be enough for me. Respect from the bottom of my heart.

Well, God help!

Well, God help!

Hello everybody!
That's what I did:






It is, of course, not bad, the crumb is lacy, a little sourness, the bread is delicious. But this is still not quite THAT: the crust is pale, (although the bottom, what was on the stone, it turned out almost THAT), there is no such luxurious golden brown shade (here, as you have). I am sure that the matter is in the kneading, in this very "moderate development of gluten". When it comes to bread like this, made of very wet dough, without sugar and fats, but only flour, water (a lot) and salt, I always knew that a special, powerful kneading was needed, in KHP such a dough cannot be kneaded correctly. But the point is that I can't knead better than HP kneads. Not with your hands, not with a mixer. I don’t know what the secret is.
I got exactly THAT in bread without kneading:



It's ciabetta, the thinnest batter ever, and it turned out great! right here... And most importantly - without much effort. How it comes to kneading - that's it! ... This time I kneaded in HP, for a long time, stopped kneading for 15 minutes a couple of times. The dough did not become "smooth and elastic", although there is progress.
Igor, how do you knead?

Ira is a beautiful bread, and baked normally.Our author of the recipe has more baked bread, so maybe it depends on the power of the oven. It seems to me that kneading (manual or hp) does not affect the color of the crust, or I am mistaken, and since it kneads hp, a person cannot take out

Ira is a beautiful bread, and baked well. Our author of the recipe has more baked bread, so maybe it depends on the power of the oven. It seems to me that kneading (manual or hp) does not affect the color of the crust, or I am mistaken, and since it kneads hp, a person cannot take out

Thank you Lenochka !
I, too, can not knead better HP, but not all of this opinion. But that's not even the point. Read here... This is a different quality! Look at Igor's bread! I could compare when I made this my ciabetta without kneading (I gave a link in my previous post). That was That! Crust and that's it! But bread and kneaded, as Igor does - this, of course, is aerobatics. And I can't do that. Although, of course, it was baked, and tasty, and better than before, thanks to Igor.

Yes, and also look here: especially video

Thank you Lenochka !
I, too, can not knead better HP, but not all of this opinion. But that's not even the point. Read here... This is a different quality! Look at Igor's bread! I could compare when I made this my ciabetta without kneading (I gave a link in my previous post). That was That! Crust and that's it! But bread and kneaded, as Igor does - this, of course, is aerobatics. And I can't do that. Although, of course, it was baked, and tasty, and better than before, thanks to Igor.

So in this link, too, knead with a combine, and do not knead the whole secret in porous ciabatta after proofing, carefully spread it out. I watched so many videos on YouTube yesterday
The second link does not open for me

Wonderful bread turned out!

The fact that the crust is light, I think it is necessary to keep it in the oven longer. I, too, at first could not get the desired color in any way. Once I decided that I would not be afraid to burn the bread and began to keep it in the oven longer than before. Now I like the crust color of my bread. Although if it were not for my better half, I would have made it even darker, but she says that enough is already dark.

I think that mixing does not affect the color of the crust. Its color depends on sugar, it is he who is responsible for this.

In the batch, everything is simple for me, just like Sergey's (I watched the video at the link). True, I did not count the number of folds, but in the end the dough is the same. If you look closely, at the end of the kneading, the dough continues to stick to the table. It MAINLY moves away from the table and hands, not absolutely.

My mechanization is literally small - a small hand mixer with two hooks. I use a large professional mixing bowl for kneading. I hold the mixer with my right hand and slowly turn the bowl counterclockwise with my left. I usually knead like this: 2 minutes at a slow speed, 8-10 minutes at a medium speed and about 5 minutes manually.

The second link does not open for me

Try again, it's interesting. It becomes clear that this is not so simple at all.
And I folded the ciabetta, when I did it without mixing, everything worked out great. And how I begin to knead, and it is in the combine - some kind of slurry is spinning, even for an hour of mixing. Anyway, thanks for your support.

The fact that the crust is light, I think it is necessary to keep it in the oven longer. At first, I also could not get the desired color in any way. Once I decided that I would not be afraid to burn the bread and began to keep it in the oven longer than before. Now I like the crust color of my bread. Although if it were not for my better half, I would have made it even darker, but she says that enough is already dark.

In the batch, everything is simple for me, just like Sergey's (I watched the video at the link). True, I did not count the number of folds, but in the end the dough is the same. If you look closely, at the end of the kneading, the dough continues to stick to the table. It MAINLY moves away from the table and hands, not absolutely.

My mechanization is literally small - a small hand mixer with two hooks. I use a large professional mixing bowl for kneading.I hold the mixer with my right hand and slowly turn the bowl counterclockwise with my left. I usually knead like this: 2 minutes at a slow speed, 8-10 minutes at a medium speed and about 5 minutes manually.

I had such a mixer, we brought it with us. And I really kneaded the dough with them quite well, there are two spirals. And then I bought Morphy Richards with a hook and threw this one away. The mixer is good. powerful, rye dough and all sorts of other kneads perfectly ... I think the mixer has nothing to do with it. I'm complicating things here. I'll try according to your scheme
(And your wife, therefore, does not want to eat burnt bread)

And the bread is really great! You just need to work on the appearance and it will be the same as in Italy. But if you don't like the taste with sourness, then you can keep the biga only for a day.

Another consideration for the shape of this bread: I used a baguette shovel for transferring (such a thin plate measuring about 15 by 40 cm) and first rolled the blanks onto it and then from this plate onto a wide shovel I put the bread in the oven. Probably it was this action that did not allow the blanks to creep in breadth. If there is no plaque, then you can use parchment. First, put the workpiece on it for the final proofing and then roll the workpiece from it onto the shovel. Everything should work out. In addition, do not forget to sprinkle flour (like a towel) on the paper before placing the dough on it. And you can use the towel itself instead of paper. It is necessary to lift the edge of the towel and the workpiece can then be rolled onto a spade lying next to it.

I like the sour taste and the smell is wonderful, very bready. And it’s not even about the shape of the bread, I know that I overexposed it a little, we are now in a terrible heat, and the preparations are somewhat fermented. All this can be worked out, it is not a question! The bread is very tasty, it has been gone for a long time.
This is not the point! There are things that are difficult to explain just from a photograph. The feeling that the dough is not smooth and not elastic, but ... lumpy, or something, no matter how much it is kneaded. That the bread itself is not only pale, but also harsh, if you keep it on the stone longer, it will itself be like a pebble. That's how when I make the dough on the same ordinary buns, it is tender, soft and "squeaks" if you press. I understand that this is a different dough, but even here people achieve a similar effect. Maybe I'm wrong, but I still blame the quality of my batch. I will try to do it according to your scheme, Igor. Anyway, thanks for your support and patience.

Attempt # 2; I defended it, like the first time, for 36 hours, but I mixed it after watching and reading in different ways. I made something like a form out of parchment. Here's what I got:
and in the contextthis time I like the result more

Gorgeous crumb! And the crust is also not very tanned, although the thickness is what you need. Today I read on an Italian site dedicated to the traditional bread of one city that the crust should be at least 3mm!

Gorgeous crumb! And the crust is also not very tanned, although the thickness is what you need. Today I read on an Italian site dedicated to the traditional bread of one city that the crust should be at least 3mm!

I already overexposed for 15 minutes. more time under the top shade so that the crust is more baked .. Italians are probably accustomed to eating such crusts, I like the crust thinner

A matter of taste, of course. One friend of mine about Italian bread (bought in a real Italian bakery) said that they "can kill"!

A matter of taste, of course. One friend of mine about Italian bread (bought in a real Italian bakery) said that they "can kill"!

The crust is really decent

well so and I uzho with bread! pictures will be tomorrow.

Attempt # 2; I defended it, like the first time, for 36 hours, but I mixed it after watching and reading in different ways. I made something like a form out of parchment. Here's what I got:
and in the contextthis time I like the result more

Lenochka! bread is handsome, let alone a cut! And the smell straight through the Internet ...

well so and I uzho with bread! pictures will be tomorrow.

And what tomorrow? How to sleep at night?

Lenochka! bread is handsome, let alone a cut! And the smell straight through the Internet ...

Irisha, if you knew how many different ways I used to knead it but it was worth it

Irisha, if you knew how many different ways I used to knead it but it was worth it

Oh, tell me, pzhlst !!!

well so and I uzho with bread! pictures will be tomorrow.

So where are the photos?

Calm, only calm! :))) in the morning did not succeed in taking a picture. I'm waiting for the evening. herself in a terrible hate

Oh, tell me, pzhlst !!!

first I kneaded with a mixer, let the dough rest for 30 minutes, then put it on the table and kneaded on the table (as Sergey showed in his video, but not for so long). Then she transferred the dough to HP in the mode, kneaded the dough, and left it alone for 2 hours. I took it out, divided it into two parts, kneaded each separately, let it rest for 30 minutes. Gently put it into prepared parchment and rest again for an hour, everything and pastries

first I kneaded with a mixer, let the dough rest for 30 minutes, then put it on the table and kneaded on the table (as Sergey showed in his video, but not for so long). Then she transferred the dough to HP in the mode, kneaded the dough, and left it alone for 2 hours. I took it out, divided it into two parts, kneaded each separately, let it rest for 30 minutes. Gently put it into prepared parchment and rest again for an hour, everything and pastries

, but not in vain!

No Irisha is not in vain, but the bread has already been eaten

And here are the promised pictures! constructive criticism, comments and suggestions are accepted with great force!

And here are the promised pictures! constructive criticism, comments and suggestions are accepted with great force!

What a criticism, what are you ... super

What a criticism, what are you ... super

No words!!! Almost like the original source!

And here are the promised pictures! constructive criticism, comments and suggestions are accepted with great force!

classsss

Superheer !!!! What holes !!!

And here are the promised pictures! constructive criticism, comments and suggestions are accepted with great force!

And there are really no words !!!! Well done!

No words!!! Almost like the original source!

I would like to share information about kneading the dough that I found in Daniel T. DiMuzio's book Bread Baking: An Artisan's Perspective.

First, a little theory that many people know. There are three types of dough mixing:

1. Short - this is how it was kneaded before the electric kneader appeared.
2. Intense - what looks like you are going on.
3. Advanced - a short kneading time, with pauses for collecting pieces of dough from the walls of the bowl (one minute or two) at low speed + small manual kneading (beating with a guy - "folding")

The way many people knead this bread and eat intensive way (mixing at high speed or a very long time)!

Quote from the book (my translation):
"In the 1960s, the French were very concerned about the poor quality of their bread and conducted a detailed study, which found that as a result of too long or intensive kneading the dough, the crumb of the finished bread loses its color (bleached). The reason, in their opinion, is the oxidation (destruction) of the carotenoid pigment. This pigment is responsible for the shade of the finished crumb. Good bread can have a yellowish or ivory tint. In addition, the crumb structure is more uniform and "fluffy" with intensive kneading. "

I fully admit that this pigment responsible for the color of the crumb (or its counterpart) somehow affects the color of the crust!

Thanks Igor! How interesting! Maybe, in my striving to get "smooth and elastic", I, on the contrary, destroy something ... (think, Ira, think)

Thank you, my good wonderful people! Your assessment as practitioners is very important to me.It is especially flattering from Igor-san :-) I also have a little to tell about my experience of mixing.