Wondering why there are different proportions of water and flour?

[Panasonic 254]

HP Panasonic 254, I read the bread recipe, there are three of them in size, small, medium and large.
In a small ratio of water to flour 1.42 (400 flour \ 280 water)
On average bread, the ratio of water to flour 1.51 (500 flour \ 330 water)
In large bread, the ratio of water to flour 1.66 (600 flour \ 360 water)

What is the reason for such discrepancies in proportions, please explain.

What is the reason for such discrepancies in proportions, please explain.

I think so - this is due to the fact that part of the water is evaporated during baking, and it is not evaporated in proportion to the original amount.

It is logical, it may well be. I didn't think about it.

It's not about evaporation at all, it's about arithmetic.

The larger the amount of flour, the more liquid you need to lay.
This is normal, you need to look at this side of the problem.

And the ratio is the ratio of the amount of flour to the amount of water - divide and get a coefficient that will constantly change, even if you add more art. l. flour.
And this coefficient. practically does not oblige to anything, since the kneading and condition of the dough are important for us.

The amount of flour and water (all liquid) depends on many reasons, and can constantly change, so the "ratio" will also change.

If you will bake bread in the future, measure in each recipe the amount of flour and water actually contained in the dough, and calculate the ratio - it will be different.

For the relationship between flour and water, see the information here:

Water as a component of the dough
https://Mcooker-enn.tomathouse.com/index.php@option=com_smf&topic=7208.0

Interaction of various types of flour with liquid
https://Mcooker-enn.tomathouse.com/index.php@option=com_smf&topic=4234.0


Success

well, you muddied! bread is an art! here one should not use mathematics, but feelings!
Of course, you can't do without recipes, but on the basis of all the material you have read, you need to find the very OWN, unique and of course tasty !!! this is not an exam in exact sciences

[you shouldn't use mathematics here,]

well, you muddied! bread is an art! you shouldn't use mathematics here, but feelings!

Okay, okay, I understand you perfectly.
Now I'll take a bold black felt-tip pen and shade out all the numbers in the recipes forever.
Indeed, what for me is math, I will sprinkle it at random. Probably, this is what you call art.

if you do not want to delve into the intricacies - this is your own business

*** controversy is not bad, but the transition to personalities is not welcome on our forum (moderator) ***

[Matzal Kouschek]

Matzal Kouschekwhy so rude. You asked, Fugasca expressed her opinion to you, and you reacted so nervously. By the way, she is right, you need to learn to feel the dough, because in different weather, season and with flour from different manufacturers, the ratio of flour and water changes slightly.

When baking on different sizes of a loaf, the oven gives out different baking modes, if you bake bread from 400 g of flour (de facto small) on the mode for a large loaf, then it will be more fried. Perhaps, as suggested by Bread Peet, different heating on different modes, different baking times.

Undoubtedly this is not a mistake, since the bread is made according to these recipes, there is some sense here.

It's not about evaporation at all, it's about arithmetic.

The larger the amount of flour, the more liquid you need to lay.

Well, this is understandable, but in percentage terms, the more flour, the LESS liquid (according to Panasonic's recipe) goes.

And why do you think it's not about evaporation? For example, in my case, the final weight of a loaf usually does not converge with the initial weight of the ingredients laid down by about 80 grams, while I put flour only 360 g. Well, it's not the flour that evaporates during baking.

For the relationship between flour and water, see the information here:

Water as a component of the dough
https://Mcooker-enn.tomathouse.com/index.php@option=com_smf&topic=7208.0

Interaction of various types of flour with liquid
https://Mcooker-enn.tomathouse.com/index.php@option=com_smf&topic=4234.0

The information is interesting, only it does not give an answer to the question posed.

[Matzal Kouschek]

Well, this is understandable, but in percentage terms, the more flour, the LESS liquid (according to Panasonic's recipe) goes.

Here I am about the same, with a small size, the ability to evaporate when heated is probably stronger ...
But, Matzal Kouschek, however, do not neglect the advice of experienced people:

at different air humidity, when using flour of different batches - the flour / water ratio can vary greatly !!!!

at different air humidity, when using flour of different batches - the flour / water ratio can vary greatly !!!!

This is also true, and also irrelevant to the question asked ...

For the last month, the roof of my bread has become completely bad, I could not understand what the reason is, until I realized that the flour from the wet weather on the balcony was damp. I dried the day in a multicooker on a heating - and again everything is okay.

[Matzal Kouschek]

Matzal Kouschekwhy so rude. You asked, Fugasca expressed her opinion to you, and you reacted so nervously.

Fugasca, by the way, in response to my legitimate question, she wrote "well, you muddied up here ", it is tactless in relation to those who consider the issue of the topic essential.
I emphasize, I am nothing here "mutilated", we are just analyzing the nuances of the recipes and I will ask those who are not interested in this, just not to disturb more thoughtful users.
All Brad Pete's posts are very constructive and to the point, many thanks to him, and to all those who did not see "muddiness" in my question.

I apologize for the incorrect word "muddied" - I used it solely out of good intentions, next to a smiling emoticon, and not mocking or some kind of harsh. I apologize once again if I unintentionally offended anyone.
but the core of the problem remained. for my reasons, it makes no sense to dig so deep (for me personally). but it makes sense to delve into ready-made recipes and look for the proportions you are interested in there. and even after that, you will not always get the same bread with the same amount of ingredients. water can be of different temperatures (the warmer, the more flour you need), kefir of different thicknesses, flour can also gain moisture (quite a bit, you won't even notice in appearance, but there will be a noticeable difference during kneading). therefore, everywhere it is advised to control the batch in order to immediately correct the number of pledged products. and this is no longer mathematics

by the way, I have never advised anyone "by eye" - I have a scale, and I immediately recommend everyone to purchase such a useful thing along with a bread maker

And I almost always bake bread by eye, or rather on a bun and everything works out for me

["muddied"]

part of the post is deleted, I take out a WARNING - then there will be a BAN


Returning to the topic of the topic.
Now, I need to get concrete, I mix cement with sand 1: 5, regardless of whether I make a cube of concrete, half a bucket or a wagon.
I was surprised that the dough is different, the proportion is always different for some reason.
That's why I and "muddied" this topic.
I did not expect that there would be people here who would find it frivolous.

The thing is that water, flour and bread, unlike sand and cement, are living substances and, depending on the season, temperature and many other factors, behave differently. And even in concrete, depending on the moisture content of the sand and whether it is quarry or river, you will pour a different amount of water

[And even in concrete, depending on the moisture content of the sand and whether it is quarry or river, you will pour a different amount of water]

And even in concrete, depending on the moisture content of the sand and whether it is quarry or river, you will pour a different amount of water

So that's the whole question!
If the proportion changes with humidity, this is absolutely understandable.
But, here, if it changes from the size of the final product - this is a mystery, therefore, I asked knowledgeable experienced people.

How the proportions of the manufacturers of our CPs were calculated, God only knows

We ourselves mainly recalculate water / flour by the coefficient
So you can take proven recipes from the forum without bothering

[So you can take proven recipes from the forum without bothering]

So you can take proven recipes from the forum without bothering

Yes, I have no problem with the recipes, the bread is excellent, thanks.
Simply, I could not understand the meaning of the difference in proportions, I was beginning to think that maybe this was a typo in the manual, although this is very unlikely.

For example, the instructions say that the bread must be taken out immediately after the end, but I tried to take it out much later, and the quality did not suffer at all, maybe even better, and it is more convenient to take it out.

Therefore, I thought about inaccuracies when translating from English.

Is there an English version?

I did not look for the English version of the Pallas' cat, but I think it will definitely be on the official website.
There was simply no task to look for her, I have been baking bread for eight months, everything turns out fine.

[only for the initial dough]

Simply, I could not understand the meaning of the difference in proportions, I was beginning to think that maybe this was a typo in the manual, although this is very unlikely.
Therefore, I thought about inaccuracies when translating from English.

In each instruction for the bread maker and in other books in bread recipes, the proportions of flour and water (liquid) are provided only for the initial dough, but not with the end result - finished baked bread.

By adding various other products to the dough, you get an increase in dough in weight - this is how it should be - this is the result of the entire bookmark of products.

The main components in bread dough are flour and water (all liquid), therefore, these components are always considered, and this ratio is given.
Sourdough can also take part, since it also contains flour and liquid, which must be taken into account when kneading dough and laying products.

IN during baking, the dough loses some of the liquid - and that's okay. And nevertheless, the total weight of the finished bread will be higher than the initial filling of flour and liquid in their proportional ratio.

It is easy to check if you calculate the weight of flour and liquid when laying the products during kneading and then the finished bread.
If you bake bread in the oven, then you can even make intermediate measurements / curtains of the dough piece at all stages of proofing and baking bread, and derive various ratio formulas.

[only for the initial dough]

In each instruction for the bread maker and in other books in bread recipes, the proportions of flour and water (liquid) are provided only for the initial dough, but not with the end result - finished baked bread.

On the contrary, it is precisely by the end result that there is a difference in proportions.
The three end results are small, medium and large.
In all three end results, the water / flour ratio is different.

Well, indeed, water evaporates faster from a small one than from a large one, Bret Pete's explanation seems to me the most logical.

"HP Panasonic 254, I read the bread recipe, there are three of them in size, small, medium and large.
In a small ratio of water to flour 1.42 (400 flour \ 280 water)
On average bread, the ratio of water to flour is 1.51 (500 flour \ 330 water)
In large bread, the ratio of water to flour is 1.66 (600 flour \ 360 water) "


Thus, the Instruction provides a definition in case you want to bake Small Medium or Large bread, and you guided yourself how much flour and water (liquid) to take for baking bread of different sizes.

But it does not say in any way that when you add 600/360 flour / water, you will receive bread in a ratio of 400/280 or another.

In my instructions for Hitachi, there is such a Standard for placing products in a bread maker, depending on my desire to bake bread of different sizes. And I use these standards all the time so as not to violate the ratio of products when placing products in the dough.

The amount of flour and other ingredients for making bread of various sizes.
https://Mcooker-enn.tomathouse.com/index.php@option=com_smf&topic=1625.0

About baking and bread baking technology, you can read special literature in the section Bread - the head is all over

On the contrary, it is by the end result that there is a difference in proportions.
The three end results are small, medium and large.
In all three end results, the water / flour ratio is different.

Look carefully what is written in the instructions - the ratio according to the final result, or recommendations are given when laying products in the dough

Look carefully what is written in the instructions - the ratio according to the final result, or recommendations are given when laying products in the dough

Recommendations are given when laying products, and the proportions of water / flour for some reason change, depending on the size of the final product.
The final product is large - 1.66 (600 \ 360)
Average end product - 1.51 (500 \ 330)

All I can add to this is use the ratio to bookmark products.

The rest I already wrote to you above

Good luck!

All I can add to this is use the ratio to bookmark products.

That is, stop thinking, not asking questions, and silently follow the instructions, like a resigned soldier.
But what to do if you want to understand the meaning and get to the bottom of the reason for the discrepancies in proportions?

That is, stop thinking, not asking questions, and silently follow the instructions, like a resigned soldier.
But what to do if you want to understand the meaning and get to the bottom of the reason for the discrepancies in proportions?

There is no need to speak and think out for me what I did not say and did not offer you

I have listed you links where you can read useful information on this issue - go for it.

I also expressed my opinion on this issue, than I tried to help you understand your question - by repeating the same thing in different versions - sorry, time is precious to me too

"if you want to understand the meaning and get to the bottom of the reason" - first of all, you just need to try to read the bread baking technology in the Bread section - everything is in the head, there is so much information for all requests and tastes - I think you will find the answer to your question there, if we collectively could not help you figure it out

Success

[if we collectively could not help you figure it out]

if we collectively could not help you figure it out

On the contrary, they even helped a lot, Bret Peet everything is fine and logically explained.
I, after all, have already written about this, I can write a second time, thanks to him again.

Matzal Koushek, read the materiel perhaps this information will help you
success

4.3 Processes during the baking of bread
Changes characterizing the transition of the dough piece during baking to
bread are the result of a whole complex of processes: physical,
microbiological, colloidal and biochemical. However, at the heart of all
processes are physical phenomena - the heating of the dough and the
external moisture exchange between the dough - bread and the steam-air baking environment
chambers and internal heat and mass transfer in dough - bread.
Physical processes. At the beginning of baking, the dough absorbs moisture as a result
condensation of water vapor from the baking chamber; during this period, the mass of a piece of dough is
bread increases slightly. After the condensation stops,
evaporation of moisture from the surface. Part of the moisture during the formation of a crust evaporates into
environment, and part (about 50%) goes into the crumb. Consequently
the moisture content in the crumb of hot bread is 1.5 ... 2.5% higher than the moisture content
in the test.
Microbiological and biochemical processes. In the first minutes of baking
alcoholic fermentation within the dough is accelerated and reaches a maximum at 35 ° C. IN
further fermentation dies out and stops at 50 ° C, since yeast
cells die off, and at 60 ° C vital activity stops
acid-forming bacteria. Residual activity of microflora
during baking in the dough - bread increases the content of alcohol, dioxide
carbon and acids, which increases the volume of the bread and improves its taste.
Biochemical processes are associated with a change in the state of starch and proteins, and
at a temperature of 70 ... 80 ° C, they stop. Starch when baking
gelatinizes and decomposes vigorously. Proteins are also broken down during baking
with the formation of intermediate products. Depth and intensity of splitting
starch and proteins affect the nature of chemical processes,
determining the color of the crust of wheat bread, its taste and aroma.
Colloidal processes. Proteins and starch during baking undergo significant
changes. At 50 ... 70 ° C, denaturation processes occur simultaneously
(coagulation) of proteins and gelatinization of starch. At the same time, proteins release water,
absorbed when kneading the dough, become denser, lose elasticity and
extensibility. The sturdy framework of the curdled proteins secures the shape of the bread.
The moisture released by the proteins is absorbed by the starch. However, this moisture
insufficient for complete gelatinization of starch, the process proceeds
comparatively slowly and ends with the heating of the crumb to 95 ... 97 ° C.
Being gelatinized, starch grains firmly bind moisture, therefore bread crumb
seems drier than dough.
4.4 Baking modes
Determined by the degree of humidification of the environment of the baking chamber, the temperature in
its different zones and the duration of the process. The baking mode depends on
varieties of bread, type and weight of the product, quality of dough, properties of flour, as well as
furnace designs. The decisive factor is the weight of the dough piece.
Baking times range from 8 ... 12 | for small-piece products.
For most wheat products and products, the baking cycle includes three periods. IN
the first baking period takes place at high relative humidity (up to 80%)
and the relatively low temperature of the steam-air environment of the baking chamber
(110 ... 120 ° С) and lasts 2 ... 3 minutes. The second period is at high temperatures.
and a slightly reduced relative humidity of the gaseous environment. Wherein
a crust is formed, the volume and shape of the products are fixed. The third period is
the final stage of baking. It is characterized by a less intensive supply
heat (180 ° C), which leads to a decrease in bale.
4.5 Bread pack
This is the weight loss of the dough (%) during baking, which is expressed by the difference between
masses of dough and hot bread, referred to the mass of dough. About 95% of these
losses are due to moisture, and the rest - to alcohol, carbon dioxide,
volatile acids, etc. The batch is 6 ... 14% and depends on the shape of the bread:
it is smaller than that of a hearth bread. To reduce the bale, increase
the mass of bread, and at the final stage of baking, the relative humidity is increased
air reduce the temperature in the baking chamber.
4.6 Storing bread
... During the cooling process, moisture is redistributed inside the bread, part of it
evaporates into the environment, and the moisture content of the crust and layers lying under it and in
center of the product is aligned. As a result of moisture exchange inside the product and with
the external environment, the mass of bread decreases by 2 ... 4% in comparison with the mass
hot bread. This type of loss is called shrinkage. To reduce shrinkage
they try to cool the bread as quickly as possible, for this they lower the temperature and
relative humidity of the air of the grain storage, reduce the packing density
bread, blow the bread with air at a temperature of 20 ° C. Shrinkage is also influenced by
crumb moisture, as an increase in bread moisture causes an increase in
losses for shrinkage, and bread weight: the more bread weight, the less shrinkage. Have
bottom bread shrinks less than pan bread.

[Matzal Kouschek]

Matzal Kouschek

woo, confused)) How long have I been baking bread, and then I slowed down ... I'm actually a humanist ...but it seems to me that this is due to the total area from which moisture will evaporate, and the total moisture content of the bread, which should remain unchanged for breads of different sizes per cube of bread volume ... and then consider yourself, this is already too difficult for me

the first baking period takes place at high relative humidity (up to 80%)
and the relatively low temperature of the steam-air environment of the baking chamber
(110 ... 120 ° С) and lasts 2 ... 3 minutes. The second period is at high temperatures.
and a slightly reduced relative humidity of the gaseous environment. Wherein
a crust is formed, the volume and shape of the products are fixed. The third period is
the final stage of baking.
heat (180 ° C), which leads to a decrease in bale.

Well, surely, as on purpose, they will not indicate anything.
The first and third periods are indicated temperature, and the second period is not indicated. If it is not important, let it be written like that - the second period does not matter the temperature, therefore, it is not indicated.

Of course, this does not apply to the issue of the topic, it just once again emphasizes someone's desire to artificially create confusion and confusion in the recipes.

I found a term paper on the Internet and copied the appropriate sections. if this information is not enough - search for yourself, by any search engine, it is not difficult, but it takes a lot of time.
good luck

but it seems to me that this is due to the total area from which moisture will evaporate,

The total evaporation area does not depend on the size of the bread, but is determined by the area of ​​the bucket opening. That is, the evaporation area is always constant and does not depend on the size of the bread.
Turn me off if I'm wrong.

The total evaporation area does not depend on the size of the bread, but is determined by the area of ​​the bucket opening. That is, the evaporation area is always constant and does not depend on the size of the bread.
Turn me off if I'm wrong.

But the ratio of the volume of bread to this very "evaporation area" will be different.

Then it turns out that if the bread has risen well, then its volume is larger and evaporation is better, or what?
It seems to me that it evaporates through the dome, and not through the sides, which are closed by the iron walls of the bucket.

evaporation continues for 1-2 hours after the bread is taken out of the bucket. That is why it cannot be cut right away. The bread is considered ready after cooling.

(if we talk in general about the processes of evaporation in bread)

evaporation continues for 1-2 hours after the bread is taken out of the bucket.

I mean the period when the bread is in the bucket.
At this point, the steaming area is the same regardless of the size of the loaf.

in my instruction
400 g flour / 260 ml water, cal. 1.54
500 g flour / 330 ml water, cal. 1.52 (insignificant difference)
600 g flour / 360 ml water, cal. 1.67, for the formation of a dough piece, water is needed in proportion to the first two positions, and during baking about the same amount of moisture evaporates, since the evaporation area is the same (that is, disproportionate), therefore the coefficient is higher and the proportion is violated. This is my opinion

[Least of all water on average.]

in my instruction
400 g flour / 260 ml water, cal. 1.54
500 g flour / 330 ml water, cal. 1.52 (insignificant difference)
600 g flour / 360 ml water, cal. 1.67,

This theory is surprising to me.
Least of all water on average.
And in small and large, there is more moisture.

That is, it turns out that the area of ​​evaporation is not relevant here, the volume of the loaf is not important.

You can consider the ratio in reverse, that is, water to flour. In this form, the coefficients will have a smaller "spread" (0.7 0.66 0.6). That is, on average, 0.65. Taking this coefficient as a basis, for the indicated amount of flour, we get water, respectively, 260 ml 325 ml 390 ml.
In general, for the "purity of the experiment" you can bake bread with THIS ("coefficient") amount of liquid. I think you will not see a "huge" difference

CP is the result of simulating baking processes. Ie.a "certain" firm has embodied a "certain" model, where a "certain" dough was taken as a basis. That is, the best in HP will always be the average size. This is on the one hand.

On the other hand, try to take any recipe yourself and reduce (or increase) its composition to the "desired" one. You will see that some of the ingredients will be in "poorly" measured values ​​(especially salt, yeast, sugar), which you will "round" in one direction or another. But after all, these components (and not only water and flour) play a role in the "process". Look at the recipes from which you have given the ratios, in full. And the salt, yeast, sugar (maybe something else) are there unchanged? Unlikely....

[Least of all water on average.]

This theory is surprising to me.
Least of all water on average.
And in small and large, there is more moisture.

That is, it turns out that the area of ​​evaporation is not relevant here, the volume of the loaf is not important.

Nope. Least water in a large loaf (with a coefficient of 1.54 it turns out for 600 g of flour there should be 390 ml of water (600 / 1.54 = 390), and we have 360 ​​ml), that is, the higher the coefficient (in our case, the ratio of the amount of flour to the amount of water), the greater the proportion of flour and the lower the proportion of water.

In general, for the "purity of the experiment" you can bake bread with THIS ("coefficient") amount of liquid. I think you will not see a "huge" difference

I agree, there is no difference, the bread is good, I tried any of the indicated proportions.
The fact is that I am not complaining about bread, I just wanted to understand what the authors of the instructions were guided by.

[first of all]

I just wanted to understand what the authors of the instructions were guided by.

Well, first of all, "their model" of baking processes.

BUT in the second, the "convenience" of writing a recipe, so that the components are in the "convenient" given numbers (ml, g, spoons) and "easily measured." Otherwise, we would have seen recipes "everywhere": 327 g of flour, 218 ml of water, 0.28 tsp. yeast, etc.

Most likely it is, I agree.
In short, I throw this catch of petty proportions out of my head and go to put on the bread.

and I go to put on the bread.

The idea is wonderful. I recently took out mine and already ate a hump

But do not stop "thinking"! I was very interested in looking for answers.

"Take an interest" in something else ...

I also "like to ask questions", but I am not very lucky with the answers. I'm glad that my answer "satisfied" you

But do not stop "thinking"! I was very interested in looking for answers.

Persuaded, I will continue to think, I will. At your request ...
For example, in what position to put a flag in the bucket so that it is inserted into the oven faster and without a rumble.

And how to put the handle from the bucket, towards yourself or away from you.

________________________ _______

Ask, boys, ask.
And you people, don't embellish anything.
And you people answer them ...