Italian bread (Ann Thibeault) in the oven

[Misha]

Misha I like yours so much

I took it as a basis (for our family what is needed, the amount of sourdough, flour and liquid is so ideally matched) and I twist it in different versions of flour and different liquids, it always turns out VERY DELICIOUS

I read the topic for a very long time, but still could not dare to bake. No kneader
But then I decided to try the result in a bread maker 🔗 and 🔗
She was upset, she baked strongly in a cast-iron mold, but everything stuck to her, barely picked it out

[Ksyhsa]

Ksyhsa, dont be upset! Everything will work out! Try to transfer it on paper next time to a cast iron mold.

[Freken Bock]

Freken Bock Thank you for prompting me, I also wanted to ask you for some kind of stone, I still could not understand what it is and why

Right here https://Mcooker-enn.tomathouse.com/index.php@option=com_smf&topic=9131.0 you can see about the baking stone.

Guys, something I stepped on and got bored with this bread. The dough is not collected in any lump at all, the kneader just juggles a liquid, which is absolutely identical to the ciabatta dough. As you know, the dough for ciabatta does not hold its shape at all, it crawls in all directions. Therefore, "molding with great care so as not to release gases" did not work out. It had to be folded in order to strengthen it, so there was no question of the greatest caution. As a result, I got bored, I collected this spreading mass and blurted it into a mold.

Now the question is: what was wrong?

As a result, I got bored, I collected this spreading mass and blurted it into a mold.

Now the question is: what was wrong?

in, got nervous, like the first time married))

You couldn't do anything wrong, most likely, you did everything strictly according to the recipe ... but the flour for this bread needs very dry and strong, few of ours in terms of quality reaches the desired level.
I subtract water from the recipe. Depending on the flour - up to 50 ml. Then the mass does not spread, but it is quite a decent drop around the hook.

Usse understood.

I took 1st grade flour. It is very water-absorbing, but, apparently, it still did not master it.

I thought, suddenly you whisper some spells ...

Natusya, and what did you knead the dough with, a hook or a creamer?

You just need to be patient, it is not immediately kneaded. I first reduced the water,

then she filled her hand and everything turned out exactly according to the recipe. After fermenting the dough

you put it on an oiled table, tuck it a couple of times to the center, then

you "shmyaka" it on a baking sheet with paper and for proofing.

For some reason, this bread is best for me in the summer, when it is very hot ...

Hook only. Sometimes I collect with a silicone spatula from the walls and turn it on again. It is necessary to test your favorite Nordic flour. Everything will immediately become clear.

Natusya, this dough is NOT kneaded with a hook! Only with a rubber nozzle, try it! You will have to knead for 4-5 minutes at high speed, everything will turn out as the doctor ordered!

It is still kneaded. I always knead on a ciabatta only with a hook. But you can try as you say.

What is this nozzle in rubber? I have Kitchen, there are no nozzles in the rubber. There is a batter and cream attachment. And one more, wire.

Ty, I thought you had Kenwood. I have a K-shaped nozzle, covered on top with an elastic band for creams.

and I also kneaded with a hook ... however, it took a long time to sausage, about 20 minutes. Then I switched to an iron K-shaped nozzle, but I haven't tried the silicone one yet ...

I also interfere with the K-shaped. But since Makfa disappeared, "that Italian" has not been working anymore.Yes, it's delicious, relatives demand only him for their arrival. But I remember what he was ...

What is this nozzle in rubber? I have Kitchen, there are no nozzles in the rubber. There is a batter and cream attachment.

That's just for the batter and cream in Kenwood in rubber-silicone, in something soft ... Like a spatula, along the way, it removes everything from the walls.

I also interfere with the K-shaped. But since Makfa disappeared, "that very Italian" is no longer working. Yes, it's delicious, relatives demand only him for their arrival. But I remember what he was ...

Yesterday I found a "Makfu" of Belarusian origin in Tavria
So far I've tried it only on Imperial buns. It seems to be of good quality.

Lena, my mind went beyond the mind, for sure, in silicone. Try it, it kneads well, collects all the dough on itself.
My elder mashed potatoes make iron and everything tempts me, and I, in the old fashioned way, with a crush ...
Tanya, I bought "Aris" flour here, they praised it to me. The first bread was so-so, the second was giant, but it kneaded so tightly that the poor machine moaned. And yesterday I kneaded dumplings on it, threw out half of the dough, it blurred, there was no strength to sculpt such a disgrace ...

[himichka]

himichka

The iron nozzle turns out an excellent puree, airy and tender

Now I use Aris. The flour is dry and strong. I even have to add liquid to the recipes And I made dumplings, dumplings even from the Soviet iron dumplings jumped out like cute ones. You, you see, got some unsuccessful party

see everyone in different ways.
and I make this dough in HP, and it's just wonderful, a little thinner, but I've already got used to it and it's just SUPER

[Tatjanka_1]

see everyone in different ways.
and I make this dough in HP, and it's just wonderful, a little thinner, but I've already got used to it and it's just SUPER

Tatjanka_1 , where you live determines the outcome. My mother in Germany was most impressed by the flour.

Girls, in which network do you buy Aris? We need to hurry, the golden rule of the Ukrainian manufacturer is that the second batch is no longer the same, and the third and subsequent ones are already frank g ...

[Freken Bock]

the golden rule of the Ukrainian manufacturer is that the second batch is no longer the same, and the third and subsequent ones are already frank ...

Freken Bock, do not be upset, but it looks like we have already missed even the second one.

For a long time I admired such beautiful bread, I was all envious and finally rushed.
Here's what happened in the end. Apparently the hands are growing at the wrong end; in general, I cannot see those holes. I do not have a kneader, I kneaded in x / p 2 kneads in a row + added a little ascorbic acid.
But the crust is delicious and crunches, and after the oven he also "talked" that he was crunching to himself, probably laughing at me.
[/ Url
[URL = https: //Mcooker-enn.tomathouse.com/r-image/r.1/F/s47./i118/1102/48/12c9236d2d18.jpg.html]

Hurray-ah-ah! I found MacFoo! I went to try again to get holes.

kneading in x / p 2 batch in a row

Don't knead it for so long! After a long kneading, you get a finely porous bread.
Good luck !!!

Viki thanks for the advice! I decided so myself, but somewhere in Ludmila's LJ I kind of read about 2 mixes in C / P, so let's try. I have a dough kneading mode of 15 minutes. do you think this is enough? I couldn’t manage such a film like MISHA even after 2 batches.

somewhere in Ludmila's LJ like I read about 2 mixes in C / P

I don't know where, but not with Lyudmila - that's for sure. She says HP is for the lazy.

I couldn’t manage such a film like MISHA even after 2 batches.

After two batches, you will not get it, because most of the gluten will already be lost irretrievably. I have a batch maximum - 10 minutes and I turn off the HP. First, I mix for a couple of minutes, so that the flour only gets wet, I turn it off. In 20 minutes. I turn on the batch. ! 0 minutes and turn it off. After 40 minutes, I do not turn on anything, I understand that turning it on for a minute, so that it rolls into a ball, it will be easier to get the dough, but there will be no such noble holes.I take it out neatly to preserve the fluffy dough.
Good luck to you!

Viki Thank you so much !!! At the weekend I will try, now, in addition to Macfa, I also have Romanian flour there, 11% whole protein.

Good evening, bakery aksakals.
Help a newbie, please, figure out where I made a mistake (I am friends with sourdoughs and bake bread for about a month). I will say right away that I have neither HP nor a kneader and there is simply no place to put them. I do everything only with my hands and in the oven and I love this business very much.
Today I tried to master Italian bread. I have read this whole topic, the topic of Ciabatta on sourdough too, a bunch of links to videos about Ciabatta and working with a semi-liquid dough have been viewed.
The crust turned out to be just right, but inside under the "roof" there is one big hole, and below the holes are very small. The dough was kneaded only with sourdough without yeast.
1) Immediately the first question: is it real at all: Italian bread based on one sourdough?

I took the proportions of the sourdough flour according to the recipe (there is a scale), water -50ml + Art. l. lemon juice instead of ascorbic acid. Kneading with a wooden spoon something that looked like a bun was wrapped around the spoon slightly glittered, slightly adhered to the walls, in general it looked like a photo from page 1. After I left it alone, it gradually spread over the bowl, after about 1 hour, 5 proofing in a warm place has doubled. On the table sprinkled with flour, it crawled out of the bowl, clinging to the walls with flagella, the perforation was observed, maybe not crazy, but quite decent, like it was also written.

2) I got confused with the shaping of the dough: first, you need to fold and stretch it several times, and then divide it into portions and form loaves. Or divide, then form and fold the "envelopes" separately each?

The loaves were allowed to stand on the table under a plastic film until doubled (about 3 hours).
Preheated the oven to 230, a baking sheet with boiling water at the bottom. I transferred the formed dough with a wide knife and spatula (even strange, but it turned out quickly and almost did not damage the shape) onto the paper and, together with it, onto a hot baking sheet. 1st 15 minutes sprinkled walls from a spray bottle, then baked for about 30 minutes.
3) I have a baking sheet with a thin bottom, there is no stone yet, maybe this is the case?

And another question about any bread: how best to keep it after baking: open, under a towel, can you cover it with a film on top?

I really hope for the help of experienced bakers.
With your help, I get very nice rye breads, most importantly tasty and aromatic. For this, thanks a lot to Admin, Zest, Viki.
I also have photos, but I can't decide where to put them, so many different topics have been re-read ...

The next day: Pekla is already at night, in the morning I looked, and the crumb is so gray. The flour seems to be good: Altai Territory is bakery. Maybe the leaven should have been fed to her too? I fed whole grain wheat.


but delicious !!!

[Crust]

Crust

here is really a heroic woman - manually knead batter on Italian bread))

Ehhh ... too many negative factors in your situation layered ... let's go point by point:

- manual kneading is, by and large, possible, but - it will be sooo long and special techniques are needed to develop gluten. I myself did not dare such a feat, but I read from Lyudmila that even before buying a dough mixer I sat in front of the TV and kneaded ... until I reached the required gluten development;

- I think that it is impossible to make just such bread on one leaven. The dough is liquid, the sourdough is a decent amount, it quickly begins to eat up fresh food, especially if the rise is delayed for 3 hours ... here all the gluten threads are weakened, the dough becomes acidic and weakens. A yeast push is needed for a quick rise;

- I haven’t met anything about the possibility of replacing ascorbic acid with lemon juice ...

- about molding - you can do this and that, but why add extra body movements to yourself by folding individual portions, if it's easier to first fold the whole dough, and then divide;

- preheat the oven to 230 * - this is very little, while you were planting bread, while sprinkling, the temperature dropped much lower than required for baking. It is necessary to heat up to the maximum that your oven gives out, but after "planting" the bread, set the regulator to 250-230;

- baking such breads on a thin baking sheet is also very problematic, their heat capacity is too low, if there is no stone, then it is better to use thick-walled cauldrons or ducklings;

- when cooling down, I keep the bread on a wooden grate, I do not cover it with anything on top (although you can cover it with a towel), the film is not at all acceptable - the bread will "steam out";

- your whole grain starter culture could not fatally affect the result, but at the first executions of the recipe it is better to "follow each of its letters", and then allow yourself to deviate. The crumb in this bread turns out to be shiny white))

- go back to this address 🔗 and be sure to read the comments, I think a lot will become clear))

Successful breads to you

[Zest!]

Oh! I waited for an answer! Two days seemed like an eternity.
Zest! Very glad to meet you

Well, too, point by point:
- I will sit in front of the TV set, I will knead, there is nothing heroic in this, I love it, like a child of plasticine or paint with my hands. Well, I have my eyes on the kneader, though I have not yet decided on which one.

- I have a negative attitude to the addition of store yeast, I will experiment with the time of kneading, proofing (can I put it in a warmer place? I have this at home, maybe 35 degrees), even if the bread will not be so ideal, but it will be healthier! And I also think that our and Italian great-great-grandmothers did not know what yeast was, but I am sure that they had great breads, this is encouraging.

- I read about replacing ascorbic acid with lemon juice somewhere in the vastness of this site, but there was nothing about the result. I will try this and without.

- My oven is prehistoric, if it is larger and stretches out, then we will all live at home like in a bathhouse, despite the -20 outside the window. There is a cauldron, I urgently need to buy a lid, I will try to bake according to your technology, the oven may not have time to cool down. Or maybe on March 8, not a dough mixer, but ask my husband for a new oven ?!

- About the gray color of the crumb: I fed the wheat sourdough 1: 1: 1, but I need less sourdough: more flour: water (I read it somewhere in your advice). Now I feed a new portion in a ratio of 10:50:50 in grams.

- While the leaven is ripening I'll go read the link

- If we have something to brag about, I will definitely inform you.

[Zest!]

Zest! Very glad to meet you

mutually))

- I have a negative attitude to the addition of store yeast, I will experiment with the kneading time,
And I also think that our and Italian great-great-grandmothers did not know what yeast was, but I am sure that they had great breads, this is encouraging.

the power of wild yeast lives in the leaven)) I have read plenty of controversial articles about the dangers of their industrial counterparts, but I was not convinced of their mortal danger and the absolute harmlessness of wild ones.Therefore, I calmly use both yeast and sourdough in baking, as well as dough and their various combinations ))

I have no doubt that the Italian great-great-great-grandmothers baked amazing bread, but it will be a completely different story, and not this particular recipe
I myself love all sorts of experiments and with great interest I will follow your

If there is no kneader, then you must at least demand a human oven from your husband ... or better, both

- About the gray color of the crumb: I fed the wheat sourdough 1: 1: 1, but I need less sourdough: more flour: water (I read it somewhere in your advice). Now I feed a new portion in a ratio of 10:50:50 in grams.

- If we have something to brag about, I will definitely inform you.

I didn't quite understand the point about sourdough and its connection with gray crumb ...

If the sourdough is originally wheat, then feeding 1: 1: 1 is absolutely normal if you want the sourdough to ripen faster. The main thing is that when feeding the amount of flour is not less than the sourdough itself contains, this proportion does not affect the color of the crumb.

But if the sourdough is originally whole grain, then yes - it is better to feed in a large proportion in order to quickly achieve the maximum content of wheat flour in the sourdough.

I really hope that there will definitely be something to brag about

For the time being, I will remain unconvinced about yeast. As soon as I began to bake homemade pure rye with sourdough (although this is a little out of this topic), I did not eat less bread, but my husband said that she seemed to be a little thinner. At the very feeling of satiety comes, without a feeling of heaviness and does not go away longer.

I could have confused something about the gray crumb, I'm shoveling so much information now. But if I understand correctly, the proportion of 1: 5: 5 will only benefit the leaven. I have it overfed from eternal rye to whole grain wheat. Now I do not put it in the refrigerator, I carefully follow it and as soon as it "shows enthusiasm" I will try to bake Italian again, with all sorts of amendments, of course.
Thank you for your attention.

Hurray and I found flour MacFoo now I will try

so far, only the pizza is ready, I'm showing off 🔗

the bread still did not fit into a large hole, it turned out to be finely porous and sometimes large holes. But the flour is certainly different, the difference is colossal. The bread, although not the same as we wanted, turned out to be delicious, everyone ate it right away

Here's my next try. Many thanks to Viki for the advice. Makfu took flour, put a little ascorbic acid, kneaded cotton as Viki recommended, first 3 minutes, then 20 minutes. for autolysis and another 10 min. The holes seem to come out on something like that is not enough. In general, here. But it is very tasty And the smell knocking down from my feet I will still try the exciting process.

Took Finnish flour nordic. The flour is strong, with ascorbic acid, and is high in protein. According to the flour / water ratio given in the recipe, nothing comes out. All the same liquid that creeps in all directions. Classic ciabatta. The addition of 40g of flour did not really improve the situation. When molding, the dough has fallen completely, because it has to be collected in a heap and all the bubbles come out.

I calculated the coefficient. In this bread, it is equal to 1.13 (515g flour / 455g water). The sourdough meant 100% moisture (well, if the liquid is stipulated).

In ciabatta 1.23 (655g flour / 530g water). Both recipes are not domestic and are not designed for our flour.

Yy-s-s-s-s ... Well, explain to me how he can hold something if there is less flour per gram of water in it than in ciabatta?
Of course, you can add flour, everything is clear, but I tried to reproduce the original recipe. And nifiga does not work for me.

[Scarecrow]

Scarecrow, Nat, instead of flour, panifarin should have been added.
There is not enough gluten in this flour ...

Well, don't tell me, Pasha, it contains 13g of protein per 100g. This is a very good protein content. I have not seen more yet. In the German biomuk, from which I baked pies, there were 12.

Protein, not exactly gluten ...
"For flour, weak, with low elastic gluten, a strong thinning of the dough is characteristic during the kneading process"

Protein, not exactly gluten ...

Not so much as to soar about this topic ...

Finally, I think it's just the moisture of the flour. It is not without reason that flour is always counted according to the moisture content of raw materials in production.

Well, moisture is killed by the amount of dry components, increase the amount of flour ...

[Scarecrow]

Scarecrow , and this dough is very close to ciabatta in consistency. When you leave it to ferment for 20 minutes, it should feel lumpy. Then, when you start kneading, and the flour is good (can I get by with the wording "good"?), The dough rather quickly begins to peel off from the walls of the bowl and grab into a ball(For me, this is an indicator that the flour is good and the job will be. If the process of setting into a "ball" is delayed, I know in advance that garbage will come out.) But as soon as the combine stops, it just as easily loses this ball shape. The term "mold" in relation to this test is very conditional. A sort of puddle I flop, fold. Be very careful not to hit the bubbles. And the meaning of this molding for me is to distribute these bubbles more or less evenly.And then I can't even transfer it with my hands to baking paper, I gently roll it over. And I "mold" on a silicone mat, oiled with oily hands.

But that was the case before. Now that "Makfa" has disappeared from us, I only have cakes and pizza that come out of this dough.

And we have Makfa, but domestic flour disappeared

- About the gray color of the crumb: I fed the wheat sourdough 1: 1: 1, but I need less sourdough

sorry for the interference, in real Italian bread, the recipe for which is given here (at least it is very similar to Pane Casareccio, which is baked in Lazio and Campania), the crumb should be gray.

And my question is this, I would like to make the crust thicker, so as in the original. How can this be achieved?

... in real Italian bread, the recipe for which is given here (at least it is very similar to Pane Casareccio, which is baked in Lazio and Campania), the crumb should be gray.
And my question is this, I would like to make the crust thicker, so as in the original. How can this be achieved?

If the thickness of such a crust, as in the picture below, suits you, I can share how I make it


Yes, and your crumb seems to be gray

Very much satisfied! Please share!

Well, here's what happened after working on errors without yeast on one starter culture:




The holes in the bread are very satisfying, and it’s hard to expect a greater rise from my oven.

By the way, about the thick crust. My stove "fires" no higher than 230 and consistently gives me thick-skinned bread, but we love these. It seems to me that if you lower the temperature a little and add time to bake the crumb, then the crust should be thicker. While I may be wrong, I am not an expert in baking.

The holes are perfect! These are exactly what they should be, of various sizes and in places hefty. I also thought about the temperature, I will definitely try to lower it to 230. I only need to know where it is. Numbers and instructions have been erased on the oven. I can't find it, the stove is 10 years old, there are only new Ariston models on the Internet. Betting 260 was easy. maximum. Will have to somehow not the eye.