Kalvel's sourdough and bread made with it

baked her second Calvel sourdough bread today. I took the recipe - Izyuminkin's favorite bread. She baked in a gosyatnik, transferred the dough into it on brown paper. Nothing stuck this time. The cuts did not come apart. I understand, there may be problems in molding (I do not understand how, the recommended videos on the Internet on my computer do not go). I was still suffering with the pace. baking - when I removed the lid after 15 minutes, it is necessary to reduce it or not, because 230 С seems very high to me. In short, I reduced it to 210 and turned on convection (before that there was a top-bottom mode). No core temperature probe. I'm sitting now thinking - I probably pulled it out early. I'll cut it tomorrow morning. And yet, for some reason, there was no strong bread aroma while baking bread, or should it not be? In short, one thing is clear - you need to bake sourdough bread in the oven and questions will decrease over time.
Thanks to the forum and its participants!

"In short, one thing is clear - you need to bake sourdough bread in the oven and questions will decrease over time.
Thanks to the forum and its participants! "

A very wise decision

Bake and eat for health

Here's my first Calvel sourdough bread. The taste is much richer than yeast bread. Only my oven let me down - it heats up weakly, only up to 160 degrees. But I baked for an hour and a half and the bread was baked well. It turned out delicious!

We have discussed all possible mistakes in PM, but I will emphasize one more point. 160 degrees is very little. Fire some more of it.

The fact is that when baking bread, certain technical points are needed. When baking bread, the temperature regime goes from high to lower temperature. Usually heated to 240-250 degrees. For the bread to be fluffy and tasty, an initial "burst" of dough is needed. That is, when a spaced workpiece is placed in an oven (and at the same time on a strongly heated under, a baking stone, cast iron, etc.), it is sharply and quickly heated. The dough grows in volume before our eyes (explodes), and the crust has not yet formed and has not fried. If the temperature is low, the bread will rise poorly and at the same time it will begin to cover with a crust, the baking time will have to be increased and you will dry it somewhat (the crust will be thick, coarse and oak).

I decided to paint a few more important points of baking bread in general and sourdough bread in particular.

Already in the topic about dough for pies, I mentioned why some types of dough (first of all, bread) put butter later. I will try to explain in my own words in detail for those who are interested.

1. Gluten (gluten) is, in fact, the insoluble proteins of flour. It is they that make up the "frame" of the dough, it is them that we see on the cut of the loaf in the form of the walls of hundreds of thousands of air bubbles of the crumb of bread. Gluten proteins do not dissolve in water, but they swell well in it. This process of absorbing water is called hydration. After this, the gluten becomes firm, elastic and stretchable. The amount of gluten in flour, its properties determine the quality of the bread made from it. It is desirable that the gluten is elastic, moderately resilient and has medium extensibility.
Further, gluten swells best at a temperature of about 30 ° C, while absorbing water 2 - 3 times its own weight. Fibers are formed, the fibers additionally bind together, forming whole strands of proteins, a kind of "frame" of the dough, "mesh". This is what they mean when they say “let the gluten develop,” that is, let it swell, form long fibers, allow the fibers to bind together and form whole strands. After that, the dough frame will be "strong".

2. Now let's move on to the oil.Fats, as you know, do not swell in water and do not dissolve in it. They are evenly distributed both in thick and in batter, enveloping other substances with a film. Fat-coated gluten (gluten) proteins do not wet well and absorb water, which prevents them from swelling. As a result, the process of formation of long fibers, bonds between them is poorly proceeding. In such conditions, the "frame" of the dough is less strong, elastic, less developed, but the dough becomes even more ... soft!

Knowing the mechanism of hidden processes occurring in the dough during kneading, you can change the properties of the dough by your manipulations (in particular, the moment and the amount of fat added). Bread dough should be quite elastic, even harsh, with well-developed gluten, so it is allowed to swell well and only then fat is added. The dough in pies, for example, should be soft and tender, but in moderation, so I knead without fat, but don't keep the dough "fat-free" for long. Already after 10-15 minutes I add fats.
I hope my explanations are clear and if something was clarified to you after reading this, I will be extremely happy.

Why, when kneading the dough, I seem to have added oil later, now I will sign the recalculation of the recipe for sourdough. I am often asked this, but, in fact, it is not difficult at all. I'll write how I do it.

Let's take for a sample an abstract recipe for a certain bread, where it is proposed to take:
500g flour
330ml / g water
salt
dry yeast
oil

You need to recalculate this recipe for the use of sourdough.
First, you need to know the flour to water ratio in your starter culture. Most of us here use French sourdough, where the equal content of flour and water (50% and 50%).
The next question is how much starter culture to take. Optimally, in my opinion, when the leaven covers 20% -30% of the FLOUR specified in the recipe. For example, if the recipe indicates 500 g of flour, then the flour in the sourdough should have from 100 g to about 170 g. That is, this is 200g - 340g of ready-made sourdough (do not forget that we have equal content of flour and water). If you use only sourdough for raising bread, it makes sense to take more of it (340 g), if both sourdough and yeast, then 200 g will be enough.
So, we decided that we will take 200g of sourdough. This sourdough contains 100g of flour, so we subtract this flour from the total flour of the recipe (500g - 100g = 400g). 200g of starter culture also contains 100g of water, which means that we must subtract this water from the water of the recipe (330-100 = 230g / ml).
If I use dry yeast in addition to sourdough, then I usually take 0.5-0.75 tsp. for 500g of flour.

Thus, after recalculation, we got:
200g sourdough (like French)
230gr of water
400g flour
salt
oil
0.5h l. dry yeast.

My favorite Calvel sourdough has an unequal flour and water content (63% flour and 37% water). Everything is exactly the same, only it is more convenient to count with a calculator, since you will have to solve problems known from school about finding percentages of a number. Let's say we decided to bake bread according to the above abstract recipe on one Calvel's leaven, without dry yeast. We need to take so much sourdough that it contains 30% of the flour from all the flour in the recipe, i.e. 150g. 150g of FLOUR is contained in 240g of ready-made Calvel's starter culture (150g / 63% X 100% = 240g). Accordingly, the water in this amount of Kalvel's sourdough is 90 g (240 g sourdough-150 g flour = 90 g water). We subtract the sourdough flour from the whole recipe flour and get 350g (500g-150g = 350g), subtract the sourdough water from the recipe water (330-90 = 240).

The recipe, recalculated for Calvel's leaven, will look like this:
240g Calvel's starter culture
350g flour
240g water
salt
oil
In general, well, I sprinkled the opus. Perhaps you have known all this for a long time and well, but I am asked about this by those who have just begun to master the ferments. I wrote to them to help (and to relieve myself).

Thank you very much!!! And then I was just going to ask a question about this ... (About recalculation specifically for Calvel's sourdough) And you were ahead of me

[Plain table white bread on Calvel's sourdough in KhP]

Thank you very much!!! And then I was just going to ask a question about this ... (About recalculation specifically for Calvel's sourdough) And you were ahead of me

I read your mind !!! How am I on time ...
I continue to experiment with leaven in HP. I decided to make a simple sourdough table bread, which I bake in the oven all the time. Here's what happened.

Plain table white bread on Calvel's sourdough in KhP



200g ripe Kalvel sourdough culture
450g flour
290ml water
10g salt
1 st. l. vegetable oil
0.5 tsp dry yeast.

I put everything except salt and butter in HP, mixed on the "dumplings" mode. Why oil is later described HERE... Gave 30 minutes of proofing, then added salt and oil, mixed again on the "dumplings" mode. She took out a spatula, let it rise in a bucket of HP for 2 hours and baked on the "Baking" mode for 1 hour 20 minutes. It will be ready after an hour of baking, but the problem is that this bread is very badly browned when baked in KhP (I baked it in the oven many times, there are photos in the topic on the previous pages, everything is OK there). He will still be pale, to be honest. If you just try to lubricate the roof with something or replace some of the water with milk, add milk powder. However, I like the taste of it because of its neutrality. Such a calm, deep, solid taste that suits any product. The crumb is completely uniformly porous, like foam rubber.

In the oven, he is, of course, a little spirited.

It is the same, but in the oven with the addition of whole grain flour. Something this time I had to add a lot of flour. No consistency was obtained.

This is the third time I try to grow the usual French sourdough again, it doesn't work, even if it's cracked, although it always worked out before. I decided to try Calvel, but I want a smaller volume, can I?

Eh, Chuchelka, I read that it is impossible ... or maybe it will work out? nobody tried it? and then so much flour ...

[Kseny]

Kseny I tried growing a half serving (Calvel's sourdough) and it worked out for me! Only I have a recipe for bran, it's a little different there.

This is the third time I try to grow the usual French sourdough again, it doesn't work, even if it's cracked, although it always worked out before. I decided to try Calvel, but I want a smaller volume, can I?

Eh, Chuchelka, I read that it is impossible ... or maybe it will work out? nobody tried it? and then so much flour ...

There are no guarantees. It may turn out that you will transfer one and a half times more flour, since it will not work now, then you will have to do it as in the recipe. BlackHairedGirl says that she did it a little differently. Can you try it as it is tested?

In general, I kneaded everything, the mass was just gigantic. Let's see what happens. There is a discrepancy in the recipe: the original recipe (on page 3) indicated 300 gr. water, I kneaded it, it turned out very cool, just a stone, then I found out that 360 gr is indicated on page 1. water, added water to the dough and kneaded again, of course using a kneader, the dough has already turned out to be normal. Here.

Yes, indeed a mistake. Not 300gr of water, but 360. Only I can't fix it anymore, I copied Lyudmila's post and didn't pay attention right away.

And I then how then these 60 gr. I intervened. I thought that everything will not work. I couldn't use my hands.
I don't even have such a container for such a volume, I put it in a container for the dough, covered it with cling film and made the holes with a toothpick.
I’m thinking, when there will be the first feeding, there will be a decent piece of dough, with it it will be possible to bake bread with yeast, or all the same, throw it away?

Probably it will be possible to bake, why not? Maybe just a little fermented, but the leaven also ferments ... We use it.

And yesterday I decided to try to renew the leaven using a cumulative method. Started with 20 gr. sourdough, 20 grams of flour and 12 grams of water. The result was a small piece of dough, which swelled twice in 24 hours (t 22 degrees). The smell appeared milky (finally !!!). Today I dissolved this piece in 31 grams of water and added 52 grams of flour. She covered it again and left it on the table. Let's see what happens.

I'm trying to grow sourdough on peeled flour. Perhaps I am doing something wrong, although everything is according to the recipe from here: 🔗
True, instead of wallpaper rye flour I take peeled flour, there is no wallpaper anywhere. This is the second time the leaven is covered with a whitish bloom. The smell is very sour, but not disgusting. Already tried it twice, both times there was a film. Now I didn't do everything all over again, I tried to throw out the film, I refreshed the remaining leaven with a fresh portion of the dough. The temperature in the closet on the shelf is 27 degrees, at night it drops to 24 degrees. What am I doing wrong, tell me, pliz!

.... all according to the recipe from here: 🔗
True, instead of wallpaper rye flour I take peeled flour, there is no wallpaper anywhere.

Alas, on peeled flour everything is more complicated. For this leaven, you need wallpaper. The reason is the bran content in it. See if rye bran is on sale. You will need to mix them with peeled flour. This leaven will then be happy to feed on peeled. And even a mixture of wheat and rye flour.

Alas, on peeled flour everything is more complicated. For this leaven, you need wallpaper. The reason is the bran content in it. See if rye bran is on sale. You will need to mix them with peeled flour. This leaven will then be happy to feed on peeled. And even a mixture of wheat and rye flour.

Thank you Viki!
We will look for rye bran, I have wheat bran, but I understand they will not work. I really want to try baking bread with my own sourdough. I got infected here with the general positive attitude of bakers, one might say - I got sick!

Just about, this is an infectious thing ... They also look at me at work as if I am quietly obsessed ... First on a bread maker, then on sourdough

who knows - tell me !!!! what is the difference between the sourdough prepared by itself and dry sourdough such as rohidunkel - primarily in prepared bread

This is what I made of bread with Calvel's sourdough ... Not a single gram of yeast, everything went up with sourdough. Baked according to the recipe Simple white, I just added a spoonful of honey. I almost got out of the bucket. Modes "Pelmeni" and "Baking" 1 hour 10 min.

BlackHairedGirl, great bread! Congratulations!
And my leaven didn't go. On the 5th day I realized that nothing would come of it.
I will change the flour, I think it's all about it. I'll try again.

[Kseny]

Kseny You are not in a hurry to throw it away ... I only got hot on the sixth or seventh day. And the bubbles and fermented milk smell appeared on the third day. Do you have bubbles? And what does it smell like? And what taste did you try?

Unfortunately, I threw it away. The thing is that the Frenchwoman did not go with this flour. And the bread itself, baked with this flour, began to deteriorate quickly. So I think it's all about the flour.

BlackHairedGirl, great bread! Congratulations!
And my leaven didn't go. On the 5th day I realized that nothing would come of it.
I will change the flour, I think it's all about it. I'll try again.

Put it warm. Right into the warmth. Probably, the temperature regime was not maintained and by the next step she did not have time to get into condition (i.e., bring the number of DD and ICB to the required threshold). Therefore, by the end, she does not have enough strength (more precisely, the required amount of bacteria for active fermentation). Letting it stand in a warm place, you will be convinced - it did not work at all or simply the concentration of microorganisms was too small.

[Kseny]

Kseny

Well, while I was typing, it turned out that she had already rested in Bose ...

Then next time pay special attention to the temperature regime.

BlackHairedGirl

Superb! Perseverance has done its job!

Scarecrow, I try to observe the temperature regime, there is even a thermometer, the flour let me down.

Today the bread turned out to be awesome ... I took it out of the bucket with difficulty ... The recipe, as always, Simple white, this time with the addition of a grated apple and 5 grams of pressed yeast ... Yeast is too much, I already see. I needed 1-2 grams, no more. Another amendment - after adding the apple, the dough became watery - the apple gave juice. I had to add three tbsp to the kolobok.l. flour. In general, it worked out well. Yes, I always add two tbsp to this recipe. l. honey ... the aroma of bread

I also had a hard time making the leaven. After some time, already desperate, I just mixed a piece of yeast dough once, which I did on bread with a piece of sourdough dough, and it immediately began to grow. And so, in the course of several dressings, the leaven got stronger. Then I translated it into 1: 1: 1 and now I bake bread only on it and without yeast. It turns out that if then, just on a whim, I would not have added a piece of yeast dough, then I would not have gotten the sourdough. Now I am sure that I can calmly grow a new one, recently I tried to grow raisins, it turned out right away, but I decided not to bother with two sourdoughs, I put it all on bread, and left mine, I grew and nurtured it for too long. There is experience in growing and caring in winter, but in the summer, I anticipate it will be difficult, no experience in this regard.

Hello everybody! I had been preparing for a long time and finally decided to grow the leaven. I'm still at the first stage. And already a lot of questions. I correctly understood that at the second stage "take 300g of sourdough" is about one third of the entire sourdough (must be weighed)?

[Rusya]

Rusya

Weighing is very desirable; in this leaven, the proportions of flour and water must be observed quite clearly.

Well, yes, 300g of sourdough is a third of the mixture.

And I brought in another bread. Simple according to the basic recipe. just for beauty. There is no incision, because at first I forgot, and then there was nothing to photograph.



The oven, the infection, always bakes one edge strongly.

And I brought in another bread. Simple according to the basic recipe. just for beauty. There is no incision, because at first I forgot, and then there was nothing to photograph.
The oven, the infection, always bakes one edge strongly.

What a beauty, well, just awful, mmm!
I would have such an oven, let it bake it on one side, I agree!
I can only bake bread in molds, it dries up on the hearth and does not blush at all, which I just didn’t do, nothing helps!

Did you let in a couple?

[Scarecrow]

Scarecrow , my leaven seems to be ready and I put it on the balcony (cool place). So the leaven as "flooded", increased several times! It did not fit me like that at 27 degrees, but now it started to fall off. Now the question is: Is it time to feed her? or no matter what, you have to withstand three days? Sorry for the confusion, I just want to figure it out so that I can be friends with her (leaven)

If you have just passed the manufacturing stage, feed it better. Let her gain strength. And she flooded not because of, but in spite of. It's just that the moment of being exposed to the balcony coincided with the peak of her maturity. Kalvelevskaya for some reason is always like this. While you are doing - somehow it does not really, does not bubble up much, although it seems to wander. Then there comes a moment at the end of the manufacturing period, when, after the next feeding, this is how you - how to trample. It means ready to use. Feed her a few more cycles. And then you can spend three days on a hungry ration.

Thank you! I'm going to feed my good one. I talk to her as if I were alive, this is already a diagnosis, right?

[Scarecrow]

Did you let in a couple?

Scarecrow, I did everything, and let in a couple, and put a frying pan with boiling water at the bottom of the oven. It baked at different temperatures. No, I can't bake bread on the hearth, it is not given to me. And in the form of a miracle it turns out, and wonderful pies come out. What's the matter, I just can't figure it out. We'll probably have to buy an electric oven.

Scarecrow, very beautiful bread! Just the height of perfection!
I really want to learn how to bake on the hearth (I have a mat for baking).
Where did you do the proofing? When I’m on the rug right away, it blur, when in shape, then when I put it on the rug it flattens or something else happens.

For the hearth, make the dough a little "steeper" than for the tin. Literally one extra tablespoon of flour (our flour is generally not very good quality in the markets).In addition, you need to stretch the top film of the dough so that it holds the dough well. To do this, you need to learn how to properly shape the bread. Watch some videos. Very strengthens the bread (i.e. makes it better to keep its shape) folding. Stretch the dough (but don't tear it!) And fold it like 4 cardboard box lids, then shape it into a loaf or loaf.

I did the proofing in a basket. If you do not have a special proofing basket made of reeds, then it is very convenient to use a plastic colander in a small hole (it is breathable and the dough breathes perfectly). It must be lined with a clean cotton or linen napkin with heavily grated (precisely grated, well grated) flour. The other side of the workpiece that will lie on the napkin is also rubbed with flour and sprinkled with semolina and let stand. Then turn over onto baking paper laid out on a cutting board, for example. Do all the necessary manipulations: spray, cut, etc., open the oven, quickly pull the paper with bread onto a heated under, splash boiling water and quickly close. All.

Thank you, Chuchelka! I will try.

Happened!
I kneaded the dough a little more abruptly, folded the dough several times, then made a braid and let it sit in the oven with a mug of boiling water right on the baking mat. After proving, I turned on baking.
Very tasty and airy bread turned out!

[Kseny]

Kseny Gorgeous challah turned out !!! Congratulations!!! With the initiative you!

Thank you Only from 1st grade flour with the addition of rye. Nevertheless, it turned out to be very airy.

And you can't even tell from the photo ... It seemed to me that the highest grade

Once again I try to grow a leaven (I tried both "eternal" and French and on grape juice) - nothing. tried Calvela. In my opinion, again a fiasco. Maybe my energy is "not the same"? do not live, damn it!
I did everything according to plan - I kneaded 300 wheat sun + 300 peeled rye (no wallpaper) +360 water + 3 g salt + 25 g honey. There was no malt, but I read in the subject that wallpaper differs from peeled one in the presence of bran, added a spoonful of rye bran. Kneading for 5 minutes, resting for 5 minutes, kneading again for 20 minutes. Stood 22 hours in a closed oven with a lit lamp, temp. 27-28 gr. Covered with foil. After 22 hours I watch - it has increased by one and a half times exactly.
the first top dressing - 300 g of wheat flour (I was surprised that it was not a mixture, but I do it exactly according to the recipe) + 180 ml of water + 1 g salt, kneaded again for about 15-20 minutes, the dough is sticky, it was not possible to knead until non-sticky. put in the same oven at 27 grams.
after 6 hours the kolobok swelled up decently. a sour smell appeared, a slightly sour taste. did the second feeding like the first, but without salt. the dough is sticky. put it back. it was late Sunday evening.
Monday - sheer disappointment. in the morning (6 hours after the second feeding) - little rose, rather spread. the third time I fed as usual.
during the day - no movement. at lunchtime I decided to make another top dressing (8 hours passed from the third) - in the bowl there is a sticky slurry, sour in taste, with a touch of bitterness (in every sense) there are no bubbles. fed the same way, returned it there. also there was no Internet all day, quite a disaster.
in the evening - zero emotions, everything is the same. we state a failure. it was decided to extract the maximum from the situation - a part of the sticky slurry is sent for storage in the refrigerator (about 11 degrees), from 100 gr +100 gr of peeled rye flour + 120 ml of water - once again sourdough. there was no way to knead, I stirred it as best I could, put it in 27 degrees.
today by lunchtime the situation is sad. the taste is sour, the bubbles are not visible, apparently because they are not there until everything is in the oven, but there is almost no hope. "There is no sadder story in the world!"
So, what will the highly respected experts advise?
with the previous leavens, everything went approximately according to the same scenario - at first everything seemed to be as it should, and then - fading, up to mold, etc. where is my mistake? I really want to feed my family with sourdough bread, but for now, alas. I wanted to attach pictures, but something broke in the engine of my plane .. damn ..

Calvel's leaven doesn't react almost to the end. Almost everyone is faced with this. It doesn't bubble until the victorious last step, or even the next after the last. I myself have gone through this repeatedly, but I stubbornly fed.

And what are these proportions: 100 g of sourdough plus 100 g of rye (why rye?) Flour and 120 g of water?

Thanks for the quick response!
the last proportions are wrong, I understand right now. you need 60% of the total amount of flour in the final product, right? and I counted 60% of the weight of flour + sourdough.
But how is it written - after the fourth feeding should it increase four times in 6 hours?
and rye - because apparently my wheat is bad - there was a large supply, it is already old, I thought that was the case. in general, of course, just out of despair this step, just so as not to throw it out, at random.
I'll probably start over. I just want to understand my mistakes so that the second time is successful.