French starters

That's New Year, and the bakers are on duty!
Happy New Year everyone! New achievements in your favorite hobby!
The leaven does not give us a breath.
Today I made the second time sourdough wheat bread from the page already mentioned here.

My people liked the bread with rye sourdough so much that they demanded to repeat - which they received.
I put a dough on rye sourdough overnight, added wheat flour, water and art. a spoonful of buckwheat flour. I put it on the "dumplings" for 20 minutes, left it to stand in the HP overnight. In the morning I added flour, 1 hour. a spoonful of starch, 2 tbsp. spoons of sour cream, salt, rast. butter, kneaded again for 20 minutes, took out the spatula and set it to "French". But another time I'll put it on the usual mode without a scapula, the crust is slightly scorched.

The girls finally decided on a French sourdough yesterday they kneaded rye wallpaper 100 gr. and 120 ml of water turned out to be a very thick mass, but it just dawned on me that 120 gr was given in the recipe. water, it turns out that I did not add water correctly, this is very critical or not.

The girls finally decided on a French sourdough yesterday they kneaded rye wallpaper 100 gr. and 120 ml of water turned out to be a very thick mass, but it only dawned on me that 120 grams were given in the recipe. water, it turns out that I did not add water correctly, this is very critical or not.

If the volume of water is measured accurately, then there is nothing wrong - the density of water is 1, that is, the mass of water is equal to its volume. But, as far as I remember, there is much less water in it than flour, and the dough is really very steep.

This is a photo of an ecologically clean, factory-made whole grain wheat flour - FOR A SPIRIT. I remember that she asked for a photo (I just don’t remember which topic. Well, this topic is her strong point)

At 3 st. l. (ordinary) French women fermented 100 g of rye flour + 100 g of whole grain + 50 g of multi-cereal flakes + water and left for 5 hours. Then the batch with wheat flour and old kefir went, rest, adding salt, sesame oil, fermentation for 1.5 tsp. Further - forming and proofing. This, of course, is not an absolutely dietary product, but closer to a healthy diet))
And with what speed the Frenchwoman rushed to the whole grain flour, coupled with rye - it should have been seen In a short time, you can get both rye and whole grain sourdough ... whatever you want at the moment.

I have already tried it - very tasty breads. Now I will have to restore the recipe on the fresh traces ... I liked the combination of rye flour with whole grain + light sourness.

[Zest!]

Prescription to the studio please Zest!

And if something is not enough dietary, I will contrive to make an adequate replacement

And the main thing for me is a way of releasing the most useful properties of whole flour: only when soaking phytins are released, which reduce blood sugar and contribute to the normalization of metabolism and weight loss.

The question immediately arose - if whole grain flour is not introduced directly into the dough, but fermented on a French woman for 5-6 hours, as in these breads, will phytins be released in time?

I read that it is necessary to soak "overnight", that is, both leaven and dough are quite acceptable

There is also a good way of long-term fermentation - when the dough is stirred without kneading and left for 12 hours (for yeast dough), or 18 (for starter dough), or 24 hours (starter dough when stored in the refrigerator). All the fitins will definitely stand out there.

[Zest!]

Prescription to the studio please Zest!

ahh, I completely fought off "hanging in grams" and did everything practically "by eye", I also kneaded in the combine, because there is a lot of dough and it is heavy, as for cotton ... to reconcile by grams.

[Zest]

Zest, let's roughly!

I also remembered the way in which the phytins will stand out for sure - prepare the leavened dough as usual, form the bread, put it in a mold, distance it for 1.5 hours and put it in the refrigerator for 2-16 hours. Stove straight out of the refrigerator!

[Alexandra]

Alexandra
so it was like this:
for an hour at 9 am I took 100 g of rye flour + 100 g of whole grain (her own, with a high content of bran) + 50 g of multi-cereal flakes + 3 tbsp. l. (ordinary) starter cultures + 250 g of water, mixed everything and left at room temperature until about 3 o'clock in the afternoon, it turns out, for 6 hours. During this time, the dough rose well and began to sag in the center.
The whole dough was mixed for approx. with 400 g wheat flour, 50 g grain mixture (composition: soy flour, flax seeds, rye-malt flour, wheat and rye bran) and old kefir (probably about 180 g of it). Knead the dough for 10 minutes. It turned out wet, sticky, with stretching threads. I left for 10-15 minutes to rest. Added 1.75 tsp. salt, 2 tbsp. l. sesame oil and yeast milk (5 g of live yeast, activated per 20 ml of milk). Another batch for about 10 minutes. Then the whole bowl with the dough was placed in the oven with the light on for 1.5 hours for fermentation. The dough has doubled.
I dumped the dough on the table (very wet, molding is possible only with flour), formed 4 balls, put 2 pieces in rectangular metal molds. For proofing with a cup of boiling water for 1 tsp.
For baking in the oven at 240 * with steam for about 5 minutes, then - 190 * until tender. I checked it with a temperature probe.

If I forgot something, I'll add it.

[Alexandra]

Alexandra
I woke up tonight from the thought that the next time I would do the kneading-proofing of these breads differently)) The dough rose in 1.5 hours with a very beautiful elastic dome, but during the final proofing it felt like there was not enough strength left.
It should probably be something like this:
- knead a simple dough, leave for 20 minutes for autolysis,
- add salt, yeast milk, butter, knead,
- lastly add the dough,
- primary proofing no more than 40 minutes,
- molding and final proofing as required.

why would I still wake up at night?))

[Zest]

Zest

As I understand you

But how much yeast is needed? One dough won't pull out the dough? The first proofing is 2-2.5 hours, the second how long will it take?

[Alexandra]

Alexandra
I think that you can safely do without yeast. After all, the Village Tom Leonardo with whole grain flour calmly rose on one dough. I was just aiming at one recipe, and in the course of the play, I suffered to add everything in a row and change.
For a French woman, it seems to me, 2-2.5 hours of the first proofing will be a lot. My dough is acidifying during this time. I would try the first one up to a maximum of 1 hour, but now the final proofing - until the dough is doubled. According to the experience of similar breads, it does not take me more than 1.5 hours, or even less. The leaven is already very strong.

[Zest]

Zest ,

And what kind of whole grain rustic? If there is a link, send it to read

during the final proofing, it felt like there was not enough strength left.

As far as I've read a lot of information from Auerman,

During kneading and molding of the dough, there is practically no carbon dioxide in it.
Yeast activity in dough is subject to rapid changes. At the beginning, during the first kneading and first proofing, the yeast is in an aerobic state, there is a lot of oxygen and nutrients around it, and there is relatively little yeast. They multiply at a fast rate. It depends mainly on the starting amount of yeast, the amount of salt and sugar in the dough and the temperature. But by the end of the first proofing, the yeast eats up all the sugar for its development.

Over time, conditions change: nutrients and oxygen in the dough becomes less - oxygen is displaced by carbon dioxide, which slows down the process of yeast reproduction. True, there are now much more of them in the test, but they do not multiply.
To induce a second fermentation (i.e., for the dough to come up a second time), it is necessary to recreate the conditions for aerobic activity. To do this, remove carbon dioxide from the risen dough, replacing it with fresh oxygen.
As a rule, the second proofing is faster, because there is much more yeast in the dough and the amount of carbon dioxide released is much higher. During fermentation, the volume of the dough increases up to 5 times or more after proofing compared to the original; it becomes lighter and acquires a porous structure.
The dough that is baked after the second proofing has an elastic structure and a richer taste and aroma. Its pores are uniform, and their size depends on the amount of water added to the dough.
If we go back to the processes and observations of baking bread in a bread maker, we can see that the first proofing may not be so high (if you do not increase the amount of yeast and sugar and other active products). But the second proofing after deboning of the dough immediately gives a good and relatively fast rise.

[Zest]

Zest ,

And what kind of whole grain rustic? If there is a link, send it to read

And he is in the same topic, I gave a link to the original recipe in my post.
https://Mcooker-enn.tomathouse.com/index.php@option=com_smf&topic=4994.210 The answer is 221.
And on the next page the answer is 229. In this bread, I also mercilessly reduced the time of the recommended proofs, it was too much.

If you go back to the processes and observations of baking bread in a bread maker, you can see that the first proofing may not be so high (if you do not increase the amount of yeast and sugar and other active products). But the second proofing after deboning of the dough immediately gives a good and relatively fast rise.

Well, now everything has fallen into place, and it seemed to me that the first proofing for 1.5 hours in the presence of yeast would be too much.
Thanks for the timely information

And it may not go from the proving time of 1.5 hours, but from a given volume, for example 2-2.5 times. The proving time will be different - it is important to get the volume.

[Admin]

Admin
This is of course true. The question here is, rather, how much is it necessary to give the sourdough dough in combination with the yeast during the first proofing to rise 2 times? It may be enough to rest for 40-60 minutes. (during this time, I have a guaranteed rise of at least 1.5 times, or even more), and to rise to a given volume already during the second proofing?
nothing, I will do it next time and compare it with the scientific poke method))

What does it mean to rest 40-60 minutes? This is the first proofing.

Now I've shoveled a bunch of recipes using sourdough, including Lyudmila and Misha ... So, most often they use this principle - the first proofing occurs before the first signs of fermentation, but not active rise, and already the second - until the increase in volume 2 - 2.5 times ... And for the first proofing time is indicated in 40 - 60 minutes. My sourdough works like this in time ...
I suspect that in 1.5 hours my dough increased much more than 2 times, and it was already starting to fall off, therefore, my strength was lost ...
I'll check it in practice.

We go our own way, we have a technical break in sourdoughs

And in a herd - it and dad legshe life

The sourdough dough needs 40 to 60 minutes to rest after kneading. If you leave it for a longer time, then the acidification process already begins (and there are some other processes that can be read about in the corresponding educational literature on baking), and this is not desirable, unless it is provided by the recipe.

[Zest]

Zest
Your amazing bread with sprinkles reminded me in appearance of the one I made according to Anna's recipe from the forum say7 Fragrant on rye sourdough.This was my first sourdough bread and I was just shocked that the dough weighted with so many additives could raise the sourdough.
Here, I'm applying.

Today my French sourdough is ready, but I will bake it tomorrow morning. I have a question: I will need to feed the sourdough and whether it needs to be taken out of the refrigerator. I want to try baking simple sourdough bread.

[tanya1962]

tanya1962
I proceed from the fact that they have nevertheless grown a thick leaven. In this case, after 24 hours it is ready for use in the dough, and it is no longer necessary to keep it in the refrigerator. We need to find the coolest place in the apartment for her. And in the morning, follow the recommendations of Lyudmila, who wrote that if more than 8 hours have passed since the last feeding (in your case, the readiness of the sourdough), then the sourdough must be refreshed in the following proportion before using it in a dough or dough: 100 g of sourdough, 70 g of flour, 35 g of water, after 4 hours it will be ready for mixing into dough or dough.

When tomorrow you use refreshed sourdough for baking, then its remainder (20 - 100 g) will need to be refreshed again: add 100 g of flour, 50 g of water to it, knead on the table in a bun, place in a jar for fermentation. When the sourdough grows 4 times in volume, it is again ready for use in baking, or you can leave it like that for almost a full day and then feed it again in the indicated proportions. To feed the sourdough less often (once every 2-3 days), it is salted (2 g of salt per 100 g of fresh flour in top dressing).

In general, I did not succeed in anything. The photographs show everything. You can hammer in nails with a crust. I have never had this before. I don’t understand what is the matter. She let it stand for 5 hours because the bread did not want to rise, baked for 50 minutes, made it according to the recipe
340 g leaven
400 gr. flour
10gr. salt
1 tbsp. l oil
200 gr. water, measured everything on the scales exactly.

[tanya1962]

tanya1962,
my first sourdough bread was almost exactly the same - I put it in a bag, in the refrigerator - on the second day I could eat it.
And the second too.
Then I baked it in KhP and now I bake it only in KhP. See above.

tanya1962
This recipe did not make bread for me. Also oak. I went for crackers.
And yesterday I made it with potato broth, took half the volume. An absolutely enchanting bread came out.
True, the leaven was boiling yesterday, the dough was defrosted for 4 hours, the formed bread was 1.5 hours.

I've already tried it with lentils, it's very tasty. Remained vegetable soup on lentils, drained the liquid, measured it out, thickened a little and in rye. They almost ate a loaf of 1,300 in a day, now I made the second one. A friend says that bread is a waste-free production, before all the leftovers (broth, porridge ...) were added.

I've already tried it with lentils, it's very tasty. Remained vegetable soup on lentils, drained the liquid, measured it out, thickened a little and in rye. They almost ate a loaf of 1,300 in a day, now I made the second one. A friend says that bread is a waste-free production, before all the leftovers (broth, porridge ...) were added.

Thank you for talking about the use of lentils, now I will do it without any doubt, I have an idea how to do it.

And about "waste-free production" it is rightly said

An example, the same grain loaf of mine, in which a cereal-side dish is laid, and which were cooked in meat broth

And what delicious food it turned out to be, both in quality and in appearance, the bread turned out to be excellent
For several days already, but everything does not dry, I left a few pieces for aging, look further on his condition.

[tenidia]

I've already tried it with lentils, it's very tasty. Remained vegetable soup on lentils, drained the liquid, measured it out, thickened a little and in rye. They almost ate a loaf of 1,300 in a day, now I made the second one. A friend says that bread is a waste-free production, before all the leftovers (broth, porridge ...) were added.

tenidia,

Do you feel the taste of lentil, or ordinary bread?

[tanya1962]

tanya1962
I am frankly upset when someone cannot get bread.I have a liquid sourdough, the bread came out the first time ... And for some reason, several people had problems with the Simple recipe based on traditional sourdough. The crust should not be thick; when baked in the oven, and even steamed, it turns out to be thin and crispy. I don’t know what is wrong there? Try "idle" feeding the sourdough to gain strength, and then - with renewed vigor for some other recipe.

Zest, I don’t understand what’s the matter, the dough itself was very elastic to the touch and I would not say that it was heavy. And I liquidated the leaven from the hot, now I will try the liquid one.

And I liquidated the leaven from the hot.

Well, you shouldn't have done that. Viki constantly converts its from liquid to thick and vice versa. And nothing - wonderful bread bakes.

It turned out, and I had bread on French sourdough, I baked wheat bread from wallpaper flour on sourdough according to Lyudmila's recipe, that's what happened. Unfortunately, the cut photo was blown out.

Good day to all !!! Need advice. For the first time I want to try to make a leaven. I chose French.
Made the first batch: 100 gr. rye wallpaper + 10 gr malt (rye) + 120 gr. water. The result is a very thick mass, like soft plasticine. What to do and leave for 24 hours? First batch and should it be so cool? Maybe you shouldn't have put in the malt or you need another malt?

It's okay! It turned out thick, tomorrow it will become thinner.
Leave it on for 24 hours and do not worry. Everything will work out.
I also had something thick as plasticine:

Here is such a lump:

But now an excellent leaven!

Girls, please remind me how to calculate the% of starter culture hydration?

Girls, please remind me how to calculate the% of starter culture hydration?

It's easier for me, I always keep 100% sourdough and don't bother with calculations, I always know that half of my sourdough is water, and the other half is flour. In general, the moisture content of the sourdough is the water content, expressed in baking percentages, i.e. flour and water going into the leaven are counted in weight percent, and all flour is taken as 100%. That is, in a leaven with a moisture content of 100%, equal amounts of flour and water by weight. In sourdough with a moisture content of 80% 4 parts of water and 5 parts of flour, 150% - 3 parts of water and 2 parts of flour, etc.

[Yuliki]

Yuliki
What is the moisture percentage of the starter for? If, to calculate the amount of flour that must be introduced with sourdough, then it must be counted like this. Better to explain with an example. Let's say the recipe requires you to introduce 100 g of 75% starter culture. This means that this leaven should contain 100% flour and 75% water. Here a new term appears - the yield of dough (sourdough), which is 175%. To calculate the amount of flour in the sourdough, divide the sourdough weight by the dough yield: 100 / 1.75 = 57 g of flour.
This means that the remaining 43 g is water in sourdough.

I'm sitting here and thinking out the essence of the question))

If you do not need to go into any jungle, but simply calculate the percentage of moisture content of your particular starter culture, then you must at least know the ratio that you adhere to when feeding. If, for example, you feed the leaven at the rate of 60 g of flour per 40 g of water, then to calculate the moisture content of the leaven, you need to divide the amount of water by flour: 40/60 = 0.67. That is, the moisture content of this starter culture is about 67%.

Zest, thanks for the detailed answer!
I remembered about the percentage, because in some recipes they are indicated. The last couple of months I have been mastering recipes from the site 🔗, and there everything is with the indication of%.
Most often I do it myself 100%, and when I'm in a hurry, I do it by sight.

[Svetlana,]

Svetlana, Thank you very much for your help!
Now I understand everything!
And another question!
My fr. After rising 2.5-3 times, the leaven began to settle, as I understand it is ready for use in the dough?
She stands in the cool (12 degrees), when can I feed her now?

I can't tell you exactly how to behave with French sourdough, becauseI have a different one, it is French, and eternal, and lactic acid, depending on what I have today. And about fr. starter cultures absolutely complete information is here: 🔗 maybe it will help you.

And, frankly, I don't bother too much about the sourdough when I see that it is hungry - that is, it has already gone in rather large bubbles, or has become fibrous and reaches for a spoon, then I feed it. In general, she is kept in my "black body", I feed only the hungry. But at the same time, she behaves very well. Knows not to show off with me

[Svetlana,]

Svetlana,I am very grateful to you!
Very useful information for me - I read it and all questions disappeared!

[LightOdessa]

Oh, LightOdessa, can you tell us more about baking?
Do you feel sourness? And what do you feed the starter culture before baking?

I bake pastries only with sourdough, if I have wheat at the moment. I feed it the same as always - flour and water, sometimes instead of flour - yogurt from milk fungus. The pastry does not sour, if it is not kept for too long in the form of a dough and dough, as soon as it fits, I bake it right away. But this is generally not information for the temka of French sourdoughs, since I did not aim to grow fr. sourdough, I just grew sourdough. I have it universal. I have a Temka about this: https://Mcooker-enn.tomathouse.com/in...tion=com_smf&topic=8269.0 ... So if you have any questions, go to my Temka, we will talk there, and on fr. Out of curiosity, I just drop in the leaven, and maybe I'll grow it later, if I wish. In the meantime, it suits me and mine

Having gained experience of communicating with MK leaven, I decided on a French woman. I grew liquid according to the instructions of Lyudmila LJ. In my opinion, it turned out to be thick, but did not change the ratio of ingredients. Secondly, it is not as bubbly as in the photo, so I decided to add a few additional dressings to it. The result is an active rise, but somehow it is not right to bubble. In general, I decided to bake. Kneaded according to the recipe of the same Lyudmila "Simple bread". But I miscalculated with the sourdough (I had 100 g less of all the sourdough than according to the recipe), so I had to add water with flour and increase the proving time. At the stage of proofing, I faced a problem in the form of a lack of proofing forms. Even generously sprinkled plates didn’t save the dough from sticking, so I had to stand it just on parchment, which led to the spreading of the bread shape. In general, at about two in the morning, I pulled my bread out of the oven. There was no longer the strength to crunch a crust, and in the morning it naturally did not crunch. The holes, as you can see, are uneven and the crumb itself is rather tight (but it is quite convenient when spreading sandwiches).


Probably something similar to your creations will not be soon ... Tell me another thing, if the sourdough remains 50 g, then feed it with a ratio of 100 flour and 100 water, or something else? Also, how often do you feed and do you always throw out half of the leaven? Thanks in advance and apologize for writing so much.