Bread maker Moulinex OW240E30

Good morning. They offered a new Moulinex OW240E30 for 7,000 rubles. Tell me, is this a normal option to start with (this offer is valid until October 13)? I plan to take my parents, the priority is baking bread and kneading dough.

There are no reviews or video reviews on the Internet. Or is it worth digging for another?



Moulinex OW240E Pain and Delices

General characteristics

Power
720 watts

Maximum baking weight
1000 g

Adjusting the baking weight
there is

Baking form
loaf

Choice of crust color
there is

Timer
yes, up to 15 h

Maintaining temperature
yes, up to 1 h

Programs

Number of baking programs
20

Dough kneading
there is

Wholemeal bread
there is

Jam
there is

French baguette
there is

Gluten free baked goods
there is

Wheat bread
there is

Borodino bread
there is

Cake
there is

Rye bread
there is

Sweet pastries
there is

Additional Information

Number of kneaders
1

Dispenser
no

Body material
metal / plastic

Features:
porridge, cereals, yogurt, drinking yogurt, cottage cheese; a jug for yogurt or dairy products; add ingredients signal

I recently bought myself one. It's too early to say anything about it, I'm testing it. I baked bread a couple of times, everything is fine. The kneading starts smoothly, without sudden jerks. The signal is quiet. The drive of the bucket and the stove itself is a special plastic. Stable, cute design. We will try further on different programs. That's all for now.

Yesterday I bought myself such a bakery, instead of the old Mulinex homebred baguette (I don’t remember the numbers), of course I wanted a new one with the same large bucket and two mixers, but I didn’t find those, I looked at other companies, but all with a big bucket of dubious manufacturers, so after long hesitation and reflection chose Moulinex again.

Yesterday I baked a test loaf - everything is fine, the maximum weight of flour according to the recipe is 600-650 grams. The bucket itself is a little shorter (4 centimeters) but wider (somewhere by 1-1.5 cm) - I did not make accurate measurements with a ruler. One agitator hums perfectly, the bun has kneaded a good one. The modes are almost the same, three modes for gluten-free baking have been added.
Well, and know-how - now the bread machine cooks porridge and makes yogurt, kefir and cottage cheese.

After a while I will add more reviews when I try all the modes, although I will hardly cook porridge

I want to buy myself such a stove. now it's supposedly a discount of 6999 instead of 11990. according to the descriptions it seems to suit me. but I want to clarify.
the following is important to me.
1.rye bread
2.leavened bread
3.dough for dumplings and noodles
4.cake dough

Added on Tuesday 27 Dec 2016 10:09 PM

Why are there few reviews? like the model is not new ..
and I also read that the recipe book does not work out bread, supposedly there are mistakes ??

Added on Tuesday 27 Dec 2016 10:11 PM

Aksania, was a trial baked according to the recipe from the proposed book?
you already have a good experience. Please write a recipe for proven rye!
Thank you.

[arsi]

arsi, indeed, few reviews ...

I made the first bread from a book with instructions - water, flour, salt, yeast, bake French bread on the mode, it turned out to be an excellent brick, on the medium crust mode I got a good crust, not fried, but crispy.

This Mule has a mode for a simple yeast dough (1 hour 09 minutes) - kneading and raising,
there is a dough mode for pizza, pasta, dough for sweet pies I also have, well, or you can knead in a simple yeast mode

I haven't baked it from the book yet, but I looked through the recipes, they seemed to me normal, the ratio of liquid and flour is quite normal, but there is our forum where you can get recipes, the main thing is to choose flour no more than 600 grams.
Not in all modes you can select the weight of the bread, but in fact, I looked at the table, the choice of weight slightly lengthens the kneading mode and the baking mode, I think it will be possible to bake it in the baking mode, if necessary.

Rye bread - there is such a regime, today I will try to make Borodinsky according to a recipe already tested for years on the last Mule (I took the recipe here on the forum for a long time), if necessary, I will write ..

Hello! Recently I received such a stove as a gift, there is no experience at all (((, but I wanted it terribly !!! I baked according to the first recommended recipe, with a medium crust. It turned out delicious, BUT the crust is denser and much darker than I would like. The second bread was from the site ( wheat-rye), it turned out, in principle, not bad, but the roof sagged slightly.3rd tried it according to the recipe from the book (brioche) and somehow really badly, the roof sagged strongly, the crust (set to medium) came out very tanned and plump. and the question: is it my hands-hooks, or the problem is in the settings (try to set it to light?), or maybe the recipe in the book is really wrong ...

I still can't do anything with her

Hello! Recently I received such a stove as a gift, there is no experience at all (((, but I wanted it terribly !!! I baked according to the first recommended recipe, with a medium crust. It turned out delicious, BUT the crust is denser and much darker than I would like. The second bread was from the site ( wheat-rye), it turned out, in principle, not bad, but the roof sagged slightly. 3rd tried it according to the recipe from the book (brioche) and somehow really badly, the roof sagged a lot, the crust (set to medium) came out very tanned and plump. and the question: is it my hands-hooks, or the problem is in the settings (try to set it to light?), or maybe the recipe in the book is really wrong ...

So what did you end up with? I went through the first two steps that you described - and with exactly the same results.

First I made it according to the "quick recipe", and it turned out like yours, that is, thick crust, not too tasty.

Then I tried the recipe from the site - and the roof also sank. And today I was just going to try brioche, just like you. But now I'm not sure.

By the way, did you also notice that there is no recipe for the classic bread program in the book? Which is number 4? I don't really understand how this can be. There is a program, but no recipe. How can you bake classic wheat bread in it? What is the recipe?

I have been using the LG bread maker for 9 years almost every day, but today I betrayed it and bought Moulinex. The first impression is disappointment (as you need a traitor). Thick colorful manual in a bunch of Basurman languages, in Russian only 6 sheets. The stove has 20 modes, the total number of recipes is slightly more (many porridge recipes). That is, not every bread regime has at least 1 recipe. The recipes are tricky, too many ingredients are heaped up, there are simply no simple ones. There is a measuring glass, but the flour is indicated in grams (inhaled, wandered off to buy the scales). As a result, I pulled out a glass and a spoon from Ski, took out a greasy manual from her (and there are a lot of recipes in it, I didn't have time to try everything in 9 years) and kneaded French bread. Launched not the regular regime of the Frenchman, he seemed short in time, but wheat. The bread turned out to be excellent, but without the experience of communicating with a bread maker, or without access to the forum, our model Muli will bring little joy.

So what did you end up with? I went through the first two steps that you described - and with exactly the same results. First I made it according to the "quick recipe", and it turned out like yours, that is, thick crust, not too tasty. Then I tried the recipe from the site - and the roof also sank. And today I was just going to try brioche, just like you. But now I'm not sure. By the way, did you also notice that there is no recipe for the classic bread program in the book? Which is number 4? I don't really understand how this can be. There is a program, but no recipe. How can you bake classic wheat bread in it? What is the recipe?

Sorry, I will answer very, very soon. Somehow I experimented right away, then I abandoned the summer, and returned only now.I try different recipes either from the forum, or ask my sister for recipes (she has PANASONIK), I really get fluffy and fluffy bread only according to one recipe (and even then not from the book included in the kit), even rests on the lid of the bread machine. In all other cases, the crust is too dark (although now I always put it on a light crust) and plump (at least 3-4 mm). Rye is generally dense ... What is your experience over the past time?

["French bread with sparkling water in a bread maker"]

"French bread with sparkling water in a bread maker" became my first experiment after buying this new HP - Moulinex OW240E30:

The program # 6 was used - French bread, with "MEDIUM crust" and setting "1000 grams", although 780 grams came out after half an hour of cooling.
1 - lightly carbonated water "Karpatska Dzherelna" was used, but it was necessary - highly carbonated?
2 - added 1 tsp. table 9% vinegar (they say - less crumbles)
3 - the temperature of the ingredients was about 28 degrees, in the air-conditioned room it was 25 degrees (the instructions indicate that the sum of the temperatures of flour, water and the room should not exceed 60 degrees, otherwise you need to freeze the water).
As a result, the top crust turned out to be deformed inward, and although the bread was baked well, it is very difficult to cut it, as if there is a void inside. And it also turned out to be almost unsalted, but this is a complaint to our salt "Artyomsol", which most likely has long been "optimized" in production.
What do you recommend, dear experts?
And yet - how to add this model to your "TECHNICAL" profile, if such a model is not there in the list?

Uzhos ((

[likbez]

likbez,
1. Once you bought a stove with 20 programs, now you need to understand the features of at least those that will become permanent with you. And choose yourself these permanent
2. Work out a bun for your oven, which will give you the best bread. As far as I know, koloboks in mulinexes should be like a ball, with panasiks you can leave koloboks softer, and a mule does not forgive excess water. But I don't have a mule .. so it's unfounded. In practice, you need to define your own type of kolobok or find owners with successful experience and let them tell you.
3. Well, quality is very important for HP, that is, the power of flour. It is imperative that one that does not die during mixing. It is a pity that there are few reviews. It is necessary to ask the users of the stove with an excellent result about their experience.

Specifically on questions?
1 - lightly carbonated water "Karpatska Dzherelna" was used, but it was necessary - highly carbonated?
2 - added 1 tsp. table 9% vinegar (they say - less crumbles)
3 - the temperature of the ingredients was about 28 degrees, in the air-conditioned room it was 25 degrees (the instructions indicate that the sum of the temperatures of flour, water and the room should not exceed 60 degrees, otherwise you need to freeze the water).
As a result, the top crust turned out to be deformed inward, and although the bread was baked well, it is very difficult to cut it, as if there is a void inside. And it also turned out to be almost unsalted, but this is a complaint to our salt "Artyomsol", which most likely has long been "optimized" in production.

and what should slightly-strongly carbonated water give you? What does it fundamentally affect?
- and who advised you and where to add vinegar to wheat bread? And most importantly, why do you use advice without understanding what they are doing and are waiting for the result?
Try to understand your actions. You decided that the temperature of 28 degrees is so, nonsense. Again, on what basis did you decide this?
Your oven kneads very intensively, there is a high danger of overheating the dough - and this is, consider, throw it away.
60 cumulative degrees - limit value, red line. Above is definitely bad. Better below. And the lower, the warmer the room.
Vinegar kills wheat gluten, which is essential for strong kneading in your oven.
Carbonated water can add volume and flavor, no more.

You have a completely fallen roof. That is the killed flour gluten. There was a strong rise, and then it collapsed.
Why? yes figs knows.
Could shift the yeast, they raised the bread too much.
Shift the water slightly when mixing.
They could kill gluten when kneading, overheating, with vinegar, or in general, the flour pumped up.
Maybe a whole host of factors.

You need to track and study your machine at each stage.

make a neat soft ball by the end of the batch so that the temperature test in the process and by the end of the batch it did not exceed 22-24 degrees - usually any flour can withstand 24 degrees.
As a rule, our flour cannot withstand temperatures above 28 degrees during mixing, it dies.

About yeast. You have slightly shortened modes, try as Panasokovites take in the main mode from themselves.
Or maybe someone who knows good proportions will give it. With yeast, you will most likely have to adjust yourself.
And take for a sample proven recipes from the forum, without amateur performance in the form of vinegar in wheat dough.
And then we'll see.
Well, take note. The longer the modes in your oven, the tastier the bread will be, because it will wander longer.

[Lena]

Lena,
attempt # 2:

recipe changes:
- flour 535 instead of 550, but
- rye malt - 15 g, steamed in boiling water and cooled to room temperature.
- water - 310 ml instead of 360, since 50 ml was spent on malt; water - the same slightly carbonated, but already cooled to +10 degrees.
- butter - also 30 g.
- sugar - already incomplete art. l.
- salt - this time - finely ground sea salt, - incomplete tsp.
- WITHOUT vinegar
- yeast "Seasoning" (instead of "Lvov"), and already one and a half tsp. (instead of 2).
- HP worked in an air-conditioned room, right under the air conditioner - in a room somewhere less than 25 degrees instead of the usual 30.
The weight turned out to be 810 g (780 g last time), and the size, on the contrary, is smaller. But this time the crust is already too baked (the mode is also "medium", "1 kg", "French"), but the crumb turned out to be excellent, does not crumble, does not fall apart, it is cut much easier. It tastes even better.
It remains to be understood - what influenced the size: little yeast or degrees Celsius?

[dense]

1. Degrees Celsius)) you will immediately feel the taste. They are needed only so that the stove does not destroy the gluten. If the crumb is good, tasty, elastic - then everything is in order with the celsius.
Fermented malt, I hope?
2. The roof has been torn down - Mom, don't worry.
Such a picture is observed with an excess of yeast on dense kolobok.
Have you been tracking the gingerbread man? Do you remember?
Try to reduce the yeast a little and soften it a little - to moisten the bun.
Make sure not to stand directly under the draft.

[likbez]

likbez, I would add 15 minutes of proofing, or, as an option, a little more yeast or a little higher than t fermentation. But it is possible that the problem is really in the excessive steepness of the test.
Acid, by the way, also affects the rise, it is not for nothing that in some cases it is recommended to add ascorbic acid powder to the bread dough.

[Crown]

Crown, Galina, I don't know your typewriter. For some reason, the owners are silent. I know that on many programs you have the last kneading in half an hour, and this is not enough for proofing. But whether it is possible to change the proofing time at your place is unknown to me.
What am I speaking here alone, also advise. It is much more convenient for you.
Ascorbic acid (just a droplet on the tip of a knife), yeah, strengthens gluten, that is, such an indirect effect on lifting. By the way, I shouldn't have forgotten about her. In your machine, any reinforcement is very necessary.



Now the balance of yeast seems to me disturbed. The explosions are huge. Or reduce the yeast with the same kolobok as now. Then there will be a small, dense bread. Either increase the humidity - this contributes to a greater volume, but with yeast it is not clear: will it be the same on a wet kolobok, or will it be too much? What a dressing to me, that Lviv's don't say anything. I put 4-6 g of the suite on 400 g of flour and I'm fine in Panasika. How much it is in Lviv and teaspoons - I don't know.
It is always useful to increase the proofing for the volume, but if it can be done, teach me, I have a panasik, we have a fixed and long proofing there.

ps. Downloaded your instructions. So there is nothing about modes or opportunities. Now finger to the sky.I give only general recommendations here, because there is no one in the topic at all. No hello, no answer.

[fffuntic]

fffuntic, only my machine is completely different, besides, I do not use the standard modes. She expounded her conjectures solely in the form of bread and crumb in the cut. Recently, I have not dealt with yeast at all, so in my case I can only manipulate the time and temperature of the proofing, based on the density of the dough.

[Crown]

Crown, Galina,
if there is a programmable mode, then we can talk about something regulated. But I did not find it in the instructions. And if there is no programmable one, then it is necessary to adjust to the given parameters by the program, and there the proofing is as it is now and truncated.
You can only twirl moisture-yeast and not nail flour. That's all the possibilities.
Not .. well, there are also dances with tambourines such as program combinations - but I don't think I will like it.
ps
I understood your idea: the yeast is just not enough and the proofing is small.
But with the proofing, most likely an ambush - you will fix the figs. Therefore, it is necessary to dance in the other direction forcibly.

[Crown]

Crown, Galina,
if there is a programmable mode, then we can talk about something regulated. But I did not find it in the instructions. And if there is no programmable one, then it is necessary to adjust to the specified parameters by the program, and there the proofing is as it is now and truncated.
You can only twirl moisture-yeast and not nail flour. That's all the possibilities.
Not .. well, there are also dances with tambourines like combinations of programs - but I don't think I will like it.

For example, at my bread machine, you can press the stop button and it will freeze for three minutes, waiting, and then it will continue to work. Five old women are already a ruble, that is, 15 minutes runs in five stops. I used to lengthen the proofer or lower the baking temperature, if the oven is too hot, but I need to "stretch the pleasure." You can also turn it off for 9 minutes, my stove, according to its performance characteristics, keeps the settings for 10 minutes when it is turned off.
Most likely, this stove also has similar properties, you need to read the instructions or find out empirically. Nothing is impossible for a person with intelligence. :-)

[Lena]

Lena,

ps. Downloaded your instructions. So there is nothing about modes or opportunities.

if you mean this bit. ly / 2I6A9R1 instruction, then on pages 128-129 there is information on timings: prntscr. com / jx4cxy

[likbez]

likbez, Vadim, oh .. I'll write a treatise after all.

So look. Extremely primitive.
we mixed flour with water. Over time, gluten is formed from this mash, which must be mixed according to its quality. Well-mixed gluten gives a thin crust and a tender crumb after fermentation.

Then he mixed it - put it on fermentation. During this time, the dough should ripen and taste better. In order to add nutrition to the yeast in the process, they do kneading on normal flour: turning over the layers with the access of new nutrition and oxygen.
After the last kneading, the dough goes to the finishing line: baking ahead. It should be fully ripe and rise well before baking.
But after the last kneading, the dough settles - it is also turned over, knocking out the accumulated gas. And before baking begins, the yeast must have time to raise it normally so that it can be baked.
If, in the remaining time before baking, the yeast does not raise the bread normally: that is, there will be little time to rise: this time: from the last stirring to the beginning of baking we call proofing, that is, the proofing will be small, then the dough without gas will go in a lump for baking, where it will begin intensive heating and yeast for the last time from high heating will sharply gas - breaking the crust, but they are no longer able to raise the bread, because the heating is fast on baking, they will not have time.

That is, a small amount of bread and explosions.
Explosions mean that the crust could not withstand the strong rise from the gases and broke. The yeast was gassed on the baked goods and the proofing was not complete.
but why did they gas?
Suppose there was little yeast at all.During the entire fermentation process, they did not raise the bread as expected, and then after the last kneading, a completely deflated lump of bread was sent for baking, where they gassed and tore apart a small amount of bread.

Second model. IN dry the loaf of bread had too much yeast. They had nowhere to turn around, they did not work at full strength. They put such bread on the baking - they gasped hard and blew off the roof.

Third model. The normal dough had a normal amount of yeast, it raised the bread well.
But then the dough was kneaded, it lost gas, the program proofing was small and the dough stupidly did not have time to restore its volume. A small dough was used for baking, the yeast was gassed, and the crust was removed.

In all three cases there will be an underestimated amount of bread and explosions.
How to distinguish between these cases. Well, according to the photo, it is quite difficult for sure.
Additional factors are needed.

Need information about the mode. If there is proofing for about 50-60 minutes, then you can practically forget about underdevelopment. If 30 .. then already a hundred pounds there you can expect a problem from her.

So .. we look at the delicacy of the crumb and crust. If the crumb is so delicate, non-crumbling, the crust is thin, then the dough is well kneaded. It means that the bun was normal and there was a good amount of yeast, which means that the problem arose at the stage of proofing.
Increasing the proofing rate would solve the problem of form. There would be a normally dense, beautiful bread.
If the proofing cannot be increased, then this is a very bad option. You can try to fight by increasing the amount of yeast so that in the last half hour you will react well to the detriment of the taste of the bread. Here a lot will depend on the purpose of the yeast. By and large, a program with a short proofing is needed for HP, which for a short time can actively gas all the time.

what we have in the photo and description.
The crumb is delicious according to the description and quite delicate, but huge explosions and small volume. An indication of the regime in French and the last photo, where the bread was with a collapsed roof, but of a normal size.
That is, I admit the thought that in this mode you can get high bread proofing allows.
This is the first admission of a finger to the sky.
Your crumb is delicious (the second principal assumption is only according to your description), there are no impurities, that is, the yeast loosened more or less normally, for some reason they could not raise well on a normal proofing and gave huge explosions during baking, and the crust is thick, that is it wouldn't hurt a little more.
I draw a conclusion: dough slightly thick for so much yeast and for a machine. It seems to me that the yeast in such a thick dough worked at half strength. But this half of the strength was enough for the crumb slightly loosened. But when kneading, they raised them half-strength too, and they gassed very sharply on baking.
Then you have fermented brewed malt in your bread - it's a yeast yummy. Supports their activity all the time, does not allow to slow down. It was to be expected that the yeast tried to work in the proofer, but still did not have time to raise it.
But the fact that they gasped so hard when their work was supported all the time, it seems to me that their oversupply could only hinder, not a lack.
Therefore, I suggested an option - wetter for volume and adjust the amount of yeast under the new moisture content. Either leave it the same, or slightly lower it.
I see it that way, but I'm not a technologist.
But the reasons for the low volume can be at least !!! three. I have not touched on the reasons related to gluten here, it seems to me that according to your description there were no problems with it, since the bread is delicious.

Now, if there was more data: if only I knew exactly what kind of kolobok you had. Normal or too dense, what kind of proof your program has, you could more accurately determine the cause.
And so Galya and I are guessing and building diametrically opposite conclusions, there is no complete information.

Well, I also studied the reviews on the stove

There are obviously more successful breads wetter in consistency of yours. That is, by the method of simple guessing, an increase in the moisture content of the kolobok simply suggests itself. That is, to adjust the moisture balance higher - yeast is necessary.

By modes.

If I understood everything correctly, can you manually lengthen each program? or is it messy in the training manual? there is additional time in the plate, but according to the description there is only a delayed start.
If you lengthen them, then by the time of fermentation they turn into quite decent ones.
The proofing is still unclear. It may not be changed.
It would be nice to follow your typewriter and write down how much it interferes, the time between strokes, and the proofing. Without understanding the features of the modes, you will, like a blind kitten, choose them only by typing.
If you do not lengthen the modes, then I would be most interested in the first of all the longest ones:
-French mode, expectedly the longest proofing and from the description it is clear that there is the hottest baked goods - which gives the crispest and thickest crust. For an amateur. If you want to be more delicate, you need to interrupt baking 5-10 minutes earlier.
- On the sweet setting, there should be delicate pastries, baking in the same place. Stronger mixing is expected, but needs to be checked. Perhaps with a cool batch, there will also be a good result, if there is a decent proofing there. Maybe it is she who imitates the basic Panasonic - you need to check.
- Promising either 8 or 9 - in my opinion it is confused in the plate, which is long for the central lock. It seems to me that there is the most delicate kneading and the most delicate pastries. With a proofing fig knows.
But it's a finger to the sky. How much is the difference in mixing ... and FIG knows what proofing .. and FIG knows.
It is necessary to investigate the modes, if, of course, the desire to consciously use them.

But then again .. maybe I'm complicating it. Perhaps you just pick up a bun with the amount of yeast and the truncate will be in openwork. According to reviews, people do not suffer, and the bread is beautiful.

[Lena]

Lena,
thank you, the "treatise" will be studied by the end of the day, but for now - tonight was
Attempt # 3:

Recipe changes:
- yeast again 2 tsp. (like the first time, but 1 tsp. "Lvov" + 1 tsp. "Seasoning" = everything that remained in stock)
- even more water: 360 ml by prescription + 40 ml. for malt + 50 ml. dark pasteurized beer (this is my amateur performance
- crust color - light instead of medium (it was not necessary);
- sugar - 2 tsp. instead of 1 tbsp. l.
As a result, the shape turned out to be correct, but the bread itself is much worse than attempt # 2 (whose "roof was blown off").
This time it is even heavier: 856 grams. But it is impossible to cut it - it falls to pieces. And the top crust - quickly exfoliated when cooled without a towel. The taste - salt appeared, sugar is no longer felt. In general, you can eat it, but you won't be able to make a sandwich.
That is, either a lot of yeast or a lot of liquid this time. Tonight at Attempt # 4 - one thing needs to be reduced. Lottery?

And if you leave the bun as with a torn roof and delicious crumb, but pull the mixer out of the bowl an hour before baking? Just while you take out the dough, it will break, then an hour will come up, then baking.
But! I have not looked at the instructions, I do not know the time parameters of the mode. I have Moulinex, but it is used only as a kneader, I bake bread in an oven or slow cooker.

[likbez]

likbez, why do you duplicate your ridiculous attempts at changing the recipe in different topics? I have now stopped almost at one, with one hundred percent repeatability and with my eyes closed, I spend three and four minutes. Do you like the process of "experimentation" itself?))

[likbez]

likbez, Vadim,

1. I'll write again. That you should not measure the water, but track the bun and remember its ideal consistency. There will be another flour - a different moisture capacity will become, and only the consistency of the kolobok remains exactly the required one.
2. You need a technologist here. Bread is a complex chemistry of processes. Each factor influences something.
Taste is a complex combination of the work of microbes and yeast over time and under different conditions. Malt is a serious additive. It's not for nothing that I ask what. Or maybe you are unfermented, who is generally very active and can spoil a lot of things with an overabundance. I don't know what is in beer at all. Maybe brewer's yeast is still there, and what is there for active additives - only a technologist can say.
By the sight of the bread, water is normal.And the quality of the crumb, this is already gluten, yeast, microbes - something went wrong there and definitely badly affected the gluten in the last stages of fermentation. It retained its shape normally, but crumbly and tasteless, which indicates that it did not deteriorate immediately after kneading, but when the problem with taste began there, who from the living creatures did not make friends -
Maybe the stove does not pull off baking this moisture as it should, although others like the bread the same and baked in the reviews.
But if in terms of moisture it is possible to reduce a little moisture, then the combination of beer, malt and wheat flour with ordinary yeast is a dark forest for me.
Experiments can be carried out, but it is entirely up to you to work out a positive result.
This is territory unknown to others.

[Palych]

Palych, Igor,

why are you duplicating your ridiculous attempts

then, that one topic is the author's recipe, which I am trying to adapt to my oven model and taste, and the second topic (this) is based on my HP model, and it is not popular enough on the forum. I will not duplicate further. regarding your assessment of the absurdity - not everyone is born immediately with a ready-made set of authentic recipes in their head, many have to experiment to achieve a result acceptable for stimulating the dopamine mechanism in the brain. not only from bread; for some, it works more efficiently by getting likes on social networks. And this is not only dopamine, there are 3 more "hormones of happiness"; and also - the features of the secretion of the gastrointestinal tract: if it is lowered, enhanced tastes are needed, and if it is increased, neutral ones (that is, any first recipe that comes in will do).

I don't even know what to write here. The ingredients you like so much are often used in rye baked goods. Rye flour is fundamentally different from wheat flour, so vinegar, beer, malts of all kinds fit perfectly there.
And for wheat flour I can't say anything. Didn't study the interaction with beer or experiment.
Everything is very subtle here. Perhaps you should start with small amounts of the original supplements and gradually build up to the maximum possible.

With your stove, or rather its capabilities, it is also unclear. The stove can withstand a certain limiting humidity of the bun, then it does not bake. You, too, only have to find out in practice.
I would study everything gradually. First I found out the capabilities of my stove. On the simplest recipe without frills, I looked at the difference in humidity, the maximum volume, I would have precisely determined the amount of yeast to my taste ..
And when I would have known for sure that my bun was perfect, with yeast right in the tail, I would add additives that change the picture.
Then I would know exactly who caused the problem.

And now? Does the oven still not like your humidity? whether living organisms entered into a conflict, or the additive destroyed gluten in the end, or too much yeast + brewer's yeast?
too many unknowns.

[fffuntic]

fffuntic, Lena,
attempt # 4 -

first I must confess that the process was ruined by me due to sclerosis: I forgot to insert the kneader, after 20 minutes of kneading I opened the lid - but there is no kolobok
I had to throw the contents into a bowl, insert the kneader and put it back, everything went wrong, the bun turned out to be watery, flour inclusions remained unmixed, but the bread tastes good anyway from the word "very".
Recipe changes:
- yeast again 1.5 tsp. (instead of 2x), and already the third manufacturer.
- water - on the contrary - for 60 ml. more.
- sugar again incomplete 1 tbsp. l.
+ added 0.5 tbsp. l. flax seeds immediately into flour at the stage of laying.
- as usual - 1 tbsp. l. malt (fermented rye).
- the crust is already medium.
Here is the result - the roof is pressed down again and the crumb in the center of the loaf is difficult to cut (does not hold). That is, decreasing yeast and increasing water did not work. You need to buy a pyrometer to at least know the temperature of the bun.

[likbez]

likbez, and you restarted the program after inserting the mixer, why didn't the flour mix?
The temperature of the kolobok is the third thing, for sure it corresponds to the recipe, but the elasticity of the kolobok is much more important. Most likely, you overflowed with water, so the roof fell. But when adding flour, there may be not enough yeast again, try to observe the correct proportions of flour-yeast and flour-water.

[likbez]

likbez, well, don't be weird. Do as everyone advises you to do one, standard wheat white bread, and then experiment on the health of "navmannya"!
300 g of ordinary tap water, tea in top salt, table sugar and 500 g of flour. Top 1 tea dry. yeast. Rast. butter during kneading 1 table.
All.
And since the topic is about a bread maker, then protest it and remove the timing from the programs.
I checked mine for temperatures during proofing (yogurt mode, for example), put an ordinary room thermometer inside. I checked the temperatures for different types of crust color, put the thermometer from the oven.
On light, it was about 130 °, on average 150-160 ° and on dark under 190.

[Palych]

Palych, Igor,

ordinary tap water

unfortunately, in our city there is no such water supply system from which it would be possible to draw water for consumption, especially for baking bread.

put an ordinary room thermometer inside

But don't such checks violate the temperature regime? when the lid is opened, the heat goes away quickly.



Crown, Galina,
of course, I started the program no. 6 in a new way, it cannot be paused, but only canceled by holding the START-STOP button.
I poured water deliberately, since in previous comments they wrote that perhaps the yeast does not have enough moisture to work properly.

[likbez]

likbez, but the rule of the kolobok cannot be violated, add water literally one spoon at a time if you see that the kolobok turns out to be steep.
Do not be afraid to open the stove while kneading and proofing, the lost temperature will quickly recover, the main thing is that there is no strong draft and do not bang the lid. The gingerbread man must be seen and even touched until you learn to determine its correctness by eye. Cannot be opened only in the first 15 minutes during baking.

[likbez]

likbez, this is a test, a check. I tested it on an empty bucket and poured some kind of cereal and poured water. How much it heats up when the heating elements turn off (you can hear it by the clicks of the relay), how many minutes each process lasts, etc. If there is a see window, then everything is visible through it. You can also highlight with a flashlight.
Boiled water from the filter and directly from the tap and from the kettle - the result does not change dramatically.

[likbez]

when boiling water in my kettle, there are just pieces of scale, it seems to me that it's better to let these hard salts remain in the kettle than in our body)))
In general, I do not trust raw water. Boiled in a bottle is always in the refrigerator out of the interests of a healthy lifestyle))))
likbez, Vadim,

If you kneaded the dough with your handles, then kneaded it with the handles, then you would have finished kneading at the stage: the dough is tender, already as a single mass, sticks off from the hands and from the walls of the dishes.
The machine should do the same. She has to knead up to this stage.
And what would happen if we took the flour and water mixed, twisted it a little and threw it? When flour is mixed with water, gluten begins to form - rubber, which forms the skeleton of your bread. First, that lump of thick matted rubber. When kneading, you unravel and pull the gluten strands into thin and delicate ones. Then, during fermentation, the process will continue and before baking, all ideal bread will be in a net of tender and tasty, but durable rubber.
What does porridge in a bucket mean?
this means that there is separate flour and separate water, a clay mass, without a sufficient amount of gluten. This porridge will then go out for fermentation, there will be more and more gluten formed over time, but still not enough, because the maturation is simply not comparable in efficiency with the application of energy during mechanical stirring. But not only that, the gluten that will form on the shelter will be thick and rubbery. There won't be enough time to turn into perfect strings.
Therefore, first knead the dough so that it becomes a dough.That is, they give the initial correct start to gluten. By the end of the kneading, before setting for fermentation, the dough should already be a tied mass, a single mass, unstick from hands and dishes, that is, there is already an ordered gluten skeleton. This is a beautiful kolobok at the end of a batch in a typewriter.

If there is a mess, there is no skeleton. If there is a tight crumbly ball spinning, there is no gluten, there is not enough water for flour to get drunk and turn into gluten.
Only when there is a tied lump, already a single mass, then everything there rests on the skeleton.
And then over time this skeleton, under the influence of chemistry in the dough from the work of yeast, microbes, active substances, will become more and more delicate, thinner and tastier.
Therefore, from these considerations, optimum water and a good bun are required before setting up for fermentation.
Another thing is that we do not overheat the dough with our hands and the process of making a dough with a skeleton from the mash is safe. And the machine heats up, so she began to twirl and warm, the flour begins to gradually get a gum of gluten, and overheating immediately kills her.
Therefore, in the machine we mix with colder ingredients .. that's the whole difference. Too ardent intense machine handles.
therefore temperature and consistency kolobok set the primary body, the skeleton of the bread.

Then yeast begins to work in this body, which fills it with gas, which stretches the rubber mesh of the gluten, such a slow delicate additional kneading is produced by the yeast.
The bread is slowly gaining volume.

Yeast requires water for its life. But when I write yeast poorly sraboli in a tight dough, I mean something completely different. In a tight dough, there is little gluten and it is like a tight dense coarse rubber lump.
Yeast cannot stretch it, or even tear it.

We need harmony-balance: so that in a tender dough penetrated by a kneaded mesh of sufficiently stretchable gluten, the yeast inflates it, inflates it with its breath, turning the dense one into an airy bread (but if it is too much with yeast, they can break at the highest point of rise)
There will be a wet mash without gluten .. and what is there to inflate-mold? tight - you cannot formulate, at best you can only tear.
You write.
That is, decreasing yeast and increasing water did not work. You need to buy a pyrometer to at least know the temperature of the bun.
And it will not work if poke-poke back and forth haphazardly, not understanding what to get.
you need to ensure that the ideal bun goes to fermentation - a ready-made preparation of the future dough with the optimal amount of yeast for it.

While you are studying, you need to climb into the machine at each stage in order to understand what is happening there.
And you always introduce some kind of extreme ingredient, when you still don't know your norms for simple flour. Flaxseed flour has an increased moisture capacity, it lubricates the picture in the way that it gives dense mucus and greatly changes the crumb. Its amount also needs to be worked out.
It seems to me that you still have a love for increased amounts of yeast.
Bring the bun to mind and, like Igor, try to make it on a spoonful of yeast.
A pyrometer for a pastry chef is a good thing, but a Chinese thermometer under 500 rubles also rolls for bread.

[fffuntic]

fffuntic, for bread, your hard water is said to be even more preferable than boiled, soft, practically distilled water (dead water). When baking, for about an hour at min. 150 ° C, nothing living_microbial survives. Or what are you afraid of ... instead of water, serum works great, etc. dairy products, potato broth, etc.
BUT this topic and the section of the forum about TECHNOLOGY, about the typewriter, its modes, setting, operation, use ...
I'm just a little embarrassed to read and contemplate such terrible dumb shameful photos of the results of these inappropriate "experiments" _ at random. Freaks. There are not so many men here and ... and I would be ashamed to simply publish them.

so I'm not talking about liveliness. There is hardly any living thing from bleach. But hard sand in small fractions is quite.To get a distillation on mine, you need to boil it three times or longer. But there are theories that the body should receive a minimum of all kinds of grains of sand and dirt in order to be able to adapt. Therefore, I do not want to teach anyone. I'm only talking about myself.

The bread maker is bought by those who want to have ecological bread on the table as soon as possible and without much difficulty.
In this respect, Panasonic is best. But an unknown stove was bought. And a complete beginner bakes on it. And how will he understand what if he doesn't ask?
Therefore, I, the only thing, I look and understand what I like or not like, but he will have to work hard with the theory
The beginner is independent, he bought it himself, he experiments in every possible way .. Ancient aksakals do not obey. Well, nothing ... everything has its time

[fffuntic]

fffuntic, even a cheap filter jug ​​can handle this easily)

nope .. I'm lazy to run around to buy filters that need to be monitored and changed. It is easier to buy normal water in a store.
And so what am I .. I am for any boil, just so as not to drink from my raw tap

[likbez]

likbez, Vadim, you probably baked a bunch of loaves over the weekend? what is the thread? where did you go?

Hello. I want to break into your discussion. Thank you so much for the treaty, honestly I don’t know, I would have known, figs would have bought this bread machine. But out of stupidity I became the possessor of this miracle. It cost me only 5 thousand with a bunch of discounts. With all the alternatives, it stood out a lot for its price and number of programs. I pecked ... Everything seems to be good, but the crust is rather thick .. I put the least fried one, it still chews badly the next day. The crumb itself is not bad. Pitch at a proportion of 300 water -500 flour.

[Nadina]

Nadina, I have primitively described above how the dough is formed.
But there is one subtlety.

Water + flour is mixed and gluten formation begins. This is a very interesting process and is highly flour dependent. The most interesting thing is that this process can take up to 3 hours in especially advanced cases.
I call this flour long-lasting.
As I described above, in order for the crust to be thin, the skeleton of the bread should become elastic for baking, but tender to the bite.
To do this, by the time of setting for fermentation, the dough must be a dough with a good amount of normally mixed gluten.

But if the flour is long-lasting, then you put the flour + water into kneading, half an hour passed .. and there is little gluten. And it will be formed during fermentation for a few more hours - dense and tasteless, then the crust will be rough.

the thickness of the crust is only two main factors: the degree of gluten mixing or re-baking in time (I suppose that the crust is not baked? - here only stop baking 5-10 minutes earlier).
Well, I suppose that the machine kneads quite intensively, most likely there is strained with gluten, it does not form immediately. This is the fault of 90 percent of our flour, although it tastes great if you let it stand for a little, taking into account its character.

In general, try to do it with a delayed start and see the result. If it does the best, adjust the delay time just for the optimum crust quality.

That is, put the ingredients in the oven and mix them in any way you like before combining. And then put a delay in your program for 30 minutes to start. To stand and form gluten before kneading.
It would be ideal to knead the yeast before kneading, but if you are lazy, then put everything at once.
Here is the only thing .. your stove is intensively kneaded and the contents of the bucket must not be allowed to heat up higher, as I understand it, 16-20 degrees, I don't know how much your stove heats up. You should not allow the dough to overheat above 25-26 degrees during kneading, for our flour these are optimal degrees.
Therefore, if it is hot in the kitchen, then the bucket must be sent to the refrigerator so that the chilled dough goes for kneading and does not overheat when kneading in a machine.
Well, already for taste, use whey, old dough, dough.

ps. to scold the machine, you must first have information on it. Perhaps you have it in general beautiful, you just need to adapt.And here no one shares their experience. There is no description of the modes with kneading.
I did not understand at all from the instructions: is it possible to lengthen your modes, or only the delayed start is set.
You have 20 modes and there is no understanding of the peculiarities of each, and it is possible that there is a large field for activity.

Thank you very much, I will definitely try. True, we have 36 degrees in the shade, so I can't even talk about 25 ... I'll try to measure the time of kneading, proofing and baking. But this bread maker does not have a lengthening proofer, at least I did not find it. I'll try to torment myself on this one, if I like it later, I'll change it for a better one ...

[Nadina]

Nadina, not a lot of sugar? Now I practically do not put it, so, tea directly on yeast.

[Nadina]

Nadina, yes, I'm not directly sure that you have a problem with the proofers there. People get normal high breads. I have a suspicion that everything is fine with your programs, as elsewhere, just work out a bun with the amount of yeast and everything will be fine.
Enhance the taste with delicious enhancers.

And if the flour does not immediately form gluten, then no stove will save you from this. We'll have to adjust. As you mix the ingredients, keep the bucket in the refrigerator. In any case, in the heat, it is unambiguous that the machine kneads the chilled dough.
This is an objective reality - it's like ice cream melts in the heat, the dough should not overheat. And the dough at 36 degrees is generally tin, it grows very quickly, any machine is not designed to work at such degrees.
in fact, in this heat it is better to act differently. Mix the ingredients, put in the refrigerator - let them swell, then after half an hour or 40 minutes send them to the machine for kneading, but after kneading, let it stand for a short time, well, there is an hour (to start growing - the yeast came to life in the warmth and started working), and then into the refrigerator, on the warmest shelf until it rises two or three times - meaning, let it wander in the cold. Or see what has risen - crumpled and let it sit in the refrigerator until there is time to do it. Then they pulled it out, allowed it to warm up (it tastes better, but you can use it directly for baking) and for baking.
That is, so that it does not ooze in the heat of 36 degrees. It is very hot. In any machine, the result in the heat will be worse than usual. The dough will not be able to ferment normally in such conditions - it's like keeping milk in the heat - it turns sour.

In general, I would not rush to scold the bread maker like that. So far I do not see any objective reasons for this. There are simply too few users and information.

[Palych]

embarrassing to read and contemplate such scary dumb shameful photos

Freaks. There are not many men here

Palych,
you have some kind of unhealthy reaction. Is it really not clear that it is from the photo that the experts of this forum can make a "diagnosis" much easier and more accurately so that they can work on mistakes? but for you there is a simple way out - you can not read them and not contemplate, that is, pass by.
Lena,

where did you go?

on the weekend I left for the provinces, and upon my return I fell under the communal apocalypse in the apartment (in the form of a water breakthrough), but today I will definitely continue to study, please the employees in the office with quick-eating bread and annoy some of my comrades on the forum with photographs of the results.
By the way, my mother first tried the six-hour program "French bread" on her 2500, the bread turned out to be conceptually tastier than on the main program.



Nadina,

still chews badly the next day.

there are a number of other dough products that are poorly chewed on the first day. but many people like it; Probably the main contraindication is problems with teeth or gums. and the rest is just a plus: in 3 hours on the "French" program, I get a crisper crust than my mother in 6 hours on the Panas-2500 on the same program.

foolishly I became the possessor of this miracle.

and I just because of the thick crust would buy it again if I had to choose in the mid-budget segment.




fffuntic, Lena,

Flaxseed flour has an increased moisture capacity

I (so far once) added flax seeds, not flour.the taste of the bread definitely benefited from this. but in general I agree that for the purity of the experiment it is necessary to change one thing at a time, and not several positions.

love for increased amounts of yeast remains.

in fact, I have absolutely no love for yeast; on the Internet for a long time and there are many horror stories about the sharply carcinogenic effect of thermophilic yeast, and at home it is impossible to prove or refute the hypothesis that after baking bread in KhP, 100% of them die - there is no way. but the original soda french recipe says 2 tsp. I have so far managed to experience 2 and 1.5 tsp. I will also test for 1 tsp. with an increased amount of water. But in general, the maximum task for me is to learn how to bake bread WITHOUT synthetic yeast (on self-made hop sourdoughs), so that it is not much inferior in taste to yeast!

Regarding water, its quality is very important in our business. once bought a TDS-meter in America, it shows the level of dissolved salts (parts per million). At the same time, it is necessary to separate which characteristics are useful or unhealthy for bread, and which ones are for people.
Water with an underestimated level of mineralization (or with zero - distillate) is NOT good either for people or for bread.
Bottled water from a retail outlet near your home (7 degrees of purification) has a level of 110 ppm (parts per million), on a scale of 0 to 500 is considered safe, but is NOT good for people or bread. It tastes really dead (although the term "dead" is applied to water with a higher acidity, and "live" - ​​with a more alkaline reaction). Such water not only does not bring, but also flushes out useful substances from the body. You can eat it on the condition that you do not live on it alone, but at the same time use the mineral, and even better natural from the source (we specially go for it and stand in line to collect).
For bread, water is probably useful, which is NOT useful for people: with a higher hardness and mineralization. But in the composition of bread and in such doses, it is unlikely to harm health. But, in addition to salts, there are dozens of main and dozens of secondary indicators of water quality, to which yeast may respond inadequately, for example:
- other types of mushrooms;
- bacteria;
- viruses;
- pesticides;
- metals;
- pH reaction;
- redox potential;
- hardness (ions magnesium + calcium)
- and they also say that it has a memory effect, and passing through rusty pipes next to the sewerage system of high-rise buildings, it ALREADY flows "non-potable" from the tap.
As the disgruntled comrade correctly wrote above, the majority of fungi, bacteria and viruses will die during baking (less will die with your preliminary boiling). But everything else must also be taken into account.

I spoke with a professional technologist.

Officially, conversations about water are amateur theories. If the water meets the requirements of not exceeding the MPC (maximum permissible concentration) of harmful substances, then it is considered quite suitable for bread. The technologist said that the "theories" about water have not received significant practical confirmation to be taken into account in production.
The same goes for "synthetic or thermophilic" yeast. Scientists and technologists do not even enter into these "conversations", since a living being is a living being, like a cat from the time of our grandmother and now a cat. Likewise, baker's yeast is the same as a thousand years ago. It's just that before they were raised at random, but now in the best conditions for them)))) Synthetics are scary in feeding yeast, well, we also feed vegetables with mineral dressings and nothing ..
In general, baker's yeast in the hop sourdough will be the same as in the store, only there will still be a bunch of other wild yeast and, most importantly, a rich bacteriological composition, the main value of the sourdough.
BUT .. buying HP for sourdough bread is an ambiguous decision.
You already understood that there are automatic programs. We need to work on a schedule.So that the dough of this kind of moisture rises strictly in 3 hours, and strictly in three hours it is lifted by a spoonful of strong and healthy friendly yeast, and not a bunch of wild mountaineers, weak and fighting in leaven))))
As a rule, it is difficult to accurately set the lifting force on sourdoughs according to the schedule. The advantage of HP as automatic bread making with a minimum of effort is disappearing. HP is used as a kneader and a proofing chamber, but all processes are already controlled manually.
Starter cultures for HP are a very tasty thing as an improver. That is, sourdough + bakery clever girls - yeast. Then the yeast is raised on schedule, and the sourdough gives a wonderful taste.

on the Internet for a long time and there are many horror stories about the sharply carcinogenic effect of thermophilic yeast

And anywhere there is real evidence that baker's yeast from the store can survive in bread when baked, that is, why are they all called * thermophilic *? Somebody knows?

Official scientists do not engage in online battles.

They publish official textbooks where they provide scientifically based data on the nature of yeast and dough there, and so on. This is considered sufficient and other official specialists are trained on this.
Legends about mutants only in the movies and on the internet.
Yeast mutants have not been identified by official science and there are no textbooks on them.
But there are studied bakery, which are completely normal earthly creatures, safe for people without an individual disease of yeast intolerance.

The legend about "thermophilicity", that is, the survival of "terrible" yeast at abnormally high temperatures during baking, was born, because in bread - it is officially known, a tiny fraction of the percentage of yeast and bacteria survives after baking.
This fact has been known since ancient times, on this fact our ancestors were based on obtaining, for example, kvass on crusts of bread. But the ancestors were not afraid of the yeast that they fermented kvass with.
And the secret lies in the same thing that when an atomic bomb is thrown on a city, 99.9 percent die, and 0.01 percent survive, well, that's how life works. Hides, clings to existence even in dire conditions.
In bread, abnormally high temperatures are longer on the surface, and in the middle only for a short time and not higher than 98 - on average. And so the islets are hotter and colder. Surviving yeast, of course wounded and traumatized, but survivors. They are weak, they are very, very few, well, like after the bombing)))) If you eat such bread, then it has been tested for centuries, they die inside a person, the environment in the stomach is destructive for them (and this is already reflected in textbooks - we live all our time of existence with baker's yeast ok).
But since there is a version about mutants from a horror movie who live in a furnace like aliens in the sun, then inside us just like an Alien they take root. True, scientists, I repeat, do not even enter into such discussions.

Since we started talking about the dangers of yeast in comparison with sourdoughs, then in a nutshell there is a different matter.

If we start raw dough at the beginning of fermentation, then the heaviness in the digestive tract is provided to the majority.
The point is in the processing of substances in the dough into the best digestible form for the digestive tract.
And this happens during long-term fermentation with the help of symbiosis of yeast with beneficial lactic acid bacteria for a very long time. Yeast alone will not do the job. None)))
Bread based on baker's yeast alone without prolonged fermentation is depleted in the necessary nutrients and flour substances are worse processed. It's not about the yeast, but about the lack of useful fermentation of the dough. Yeast can loosen bread, but one cannot make it extremely useful. And from them it is constantly demanded and accused of all mortal sins.

[fffuntic]

fffuntic, Thanks for clarifying!
And why is leavening yeast considered so beneficial and * thermophobic *? After all, in theory, while the leaven is standing and ripening for years, any pathogenic microbes, fungi, etc. can start and mutate there, and then survive in the core of baking, where the temperature is 98 degrees and poison the body, no?

Yeast can loosen bread, but one cannot make it extremely useful.

What is better to add to aid baker's yeast for a synergistic effect? Any sour milk?