Starter cultures - in questions and answers

according to Lyudmilin's pictures with comments

I also did it from her pictures.
Only she turned off the ability to ask questions, probably there is no time.

It is not yet clear why so much fuss with koloboks, burials ...

I understand from her comments that access to other bacteria is closed when it is dry, the sourdough is cleaner.
Well, these translations into a thick and liquid ....: cray: unclear!

Liquid, as I understand, can be stored for a long time in the refrigerator, and thick, you still need to feed it once a day, even though it is in the refrigerator.
I have 9-10 degrees in the refrigerator, so it's like a cellar.

When will we begin, torment each other with questions? Sardonic Giggles

I also have a question, why run from thick to liquid. But who will answer us?

The only thing that I began to get soft springy bread on this leaven.
I liked the recipe for Czech peasant bread very much. My favorite is this bread.

I also have a question, why run from thick to liquid. But who will answer us?

Vika, you yourself answered this question above, the thick one needs to be fed once a day, and the liquid one can stand in the refrigerator for 2 weeks, without feeding ..

I switched to storing liquid sourdough in the refrigerator, it saves me a lot of time and flour. flour is not so important, but the fact that we managed to get rid of the "starter addiction" - when you need to feed in any case, bake or not, and remember all the time about it - for me it is very great

Well, I'm probably better off thick. I bake every other day. One day in the refrigerator, then I take it out, feed it for 12 hours, then dough for 12 hours, then the dough and refrigerate for 12 hours, so it turns out that you don't need to store it for a long time. I bake constantly.

It's not clear yet what for why so much fuss with koloboks, burials ...

It seems to me that you can get the same result if you don't knead the bun with your hands (it sticks - you can't tear it off), but knead the starter in a glass container, then you can use a spoon, fork, spatula. Leave it there, sprinkling it with a layer of flour on top.
1) It's cleaner, because no matter how many hands are mine, there is at least some bacteria under the nails, but it sits.
2) It can be seen through the glass that the leaven is happening.
3) It is easier to weigh by subtracting the weight of the container each time.
4) there is no air access, and other things that fly in the air.
5) saving flour !!! (every time you throw away a part of the bun, a stuck flour crust flies into the trash can)

About the translation thick-liquid-thick: and count it all every time! I haven't practiced math since school as much as with breeding this leaven.
And to be honest, I am closer to the opinion that lactic acid bacteria in the refrigerator are getting poorer, which means that the leaven will become unusable faster.

Py. Sy. I went to read about Czech peasant.

[Crust]

oh, girls, I forgot to tell - about the recalculation of the leaven

I used to recalculate the available starter culture to the required moisture content, and so I fed the starter culture.

it turns out that it is important not how much Sourdough gets into the dough, but how much FLOUR with sourdough gets into the dough. that is, if 170 g of leaven is required, in which 100 g of flour is 70 g of water, then the main thing is that exactly 100 g of fermented flour gets into the dough. and we will correct the water due to the liquid in the recipe.

that is, if I have 200g of sourdough in which 100g of flour is 100g of water, then I will put ALL of my leaven into the dough! because they demand from me 100g of fermented flour according to the recipe. and more water gets into the dough than is required, by 30g (70g of water is needed, I have 100g of water, the difference is 30g). for these extra 30g I will reduce the prescription liquid. that is, if the ingredients indicate to pour in 150 g of water, then I will add 150-30 = 120 g of water.

they do this because yeast and microbial in sourdough do not live on their own, but on flour, so they get into the dough with flour

Crust, here Luda in the article and in the comments tells in detail how and what happens when stored in the refrigerator 🔗

about the fact that lactic acid bacteria are dying out in the chemistry and the leaven is deteriorating, here is Lyudin's answer, there the girl asked exactly this question, I am quoting literally, I will not formulate it so well

Luda mariana-aga writes: "Yes, I thought so too. I did not know that in the refrigerator you need to store the most ripe sourdough in liquid form and then everything will be fine. I was taught to keep in the refrigerator in an unripe cool form and the sourdoughs were cooled down and became simplified, poor.

That is, this is a completely different process. Most people strive to ferment the leaven in the refrigerator, and therefore feed it before putting it in the refrigerator so that the microbes there slowly feed on fresh flour and clean water. And she must sleep there. Because lactic acid fermentation cannot take place in the refrigerator and there is no need to strive for this.

Storing in the refrigerator does not negate the fact that bacteria slowly die out in the cold. But since there were a huge number of them in the beginning and the re-preservation is done correctly, the leaven instantly returns to its ideal state. In any case, this time I did not notice such unpleasant changes in the sourdoughs, wheat and rye, as it was 3 years ago, when I stored it incorrectly in the cold and incorrectly fed it in the heat. "

[different types of lactic acid bacteria]

Girls, allow a quote from 🔗

2. Temperature and TA / DY / TH. We know that a significant role in creating the taste and aroma of bread, especially rye, as well as its digestibility, is played by different types of lactic acid bacteria... A taste acidity and to some extent the aroma of rye bread are determined by the ratio of volatile and lactic acids in it.
During the fermentation of sour dough, microorganisms with a delicate name Steptococcus diacetilactis develop, capable of producing aromatic substances called acetoin and duacetyl. All lactic acid bacteria are divided into groups, each of which successfully develops not only at its optimum fermentation temperature, but also in an environment with its own favorable pH. It has been proven that a pH in the region of 4.5 and below significantly inhibits the growth of all sour dough bacteria. There is even such a thing as "critical pH value"in which lactic acid bacteria no longer multiply (by the way, it has its own for different groups). temperature and consistency of the starter first of all, they allow or vice versa interfere with saturating it with one or another group (or groups) of lactic acid bacteria and changing its acid background. In a very simplified form, it looks like this:
- a low TA / DY / TH indicator (ie, the leaven is thicker) and a "low" temperature of +25 ... 30C contribute to the greater development of acetic acid;
- a high TA / DY / TH (ie, the sourdough is more liquid) and a "higher" temperature of +35 ... 37C help mainly to develop lactic acid bacteria.
At first, it was believed that the regulation of the accumulation of lactic and acetic acids can be carried out by selecting a certain ratio of bacteria artificially introduced into the starter culture. It turned out that this path over time, or rather after 3-4 days, is not effective enough. The most effective and reliable method of regulation turned out to be changing the mode of cooking leavento, which means "selection of a certain ratio of flour and water (TA / DY / TH) and change fermentation temperature"(Auerman L. Ya., 1972).
According to the latest research, Onno B., Deckock P., Cappelle S. temperature + consistency, even during the refreshing process, can radically change the primary microflora of the starter cultureand. For this, only what is needed is that at different stages of its rejuvenation choose your own, i.e., the correct fermentation temperature and change the TA / TH / DY indicator. Well, at least the way those who know do with their own ...

[temperature and consistency of the starter]

.... Exactly temperature and consistency of the starter first of all, they allow or vice versa interfere with saturating it with one or another group (or groups) of lactic acid bacteria and changing its acid background. In a very simplified form, it looks like this:
- a low TA / DY / TH indicator (ie, the leaven is thicker) and a "low" temperature of +25 ... 30C contribute to the greater development of acetic acid;
- a high TA / DY / TH (ie, the sourdough is more liquid) and a "higher" temperature of +35 ... 37C help mainly to develop lactic acid bacteria.
....

Then it turns out to be a low indicator all the time, because the leaven is always thick and the temperature does not rise above 30 neither for Sarychev nor for Lyudmila, well, in the sense, for their leavens.

And one more to understand what Lyuda is doing now
Levain chef (main starter) is a piece of dough made of only flour, water and wild enzymes, naturally fermented. It can be set aside from a batch of previous baked goods if the dough did not contain cultured yeast. The function of the Levain chef is to contain wild yeast and lactic acid bacteria that will multiply in subsequent Levain and refreshments.
How to use:

- (primary leaven) - that is, primary Levain. It is obtained by fermenting the dough, obtained in turn by adding a certain amount of flour and water to Levain chef.

- (secondary leaven) - secondary Levain, produced by fermenting dough obtained by adding a certain amount of flour and water to Levain de premiere - that is, primary Levain.

- (final leaven) - final Levain, produced by fermenting the dough obtained by adding a certain amount of flour and water to the primary or secondary Levain (Levain de premiere and Levain de seconde).
written by Olei-Eliabel

Then it turns out to be a low indicator all the time, since the leaven is always thick and the temperature does not rise above 30 neither for Sarychev nor for Lyudmila.

Crust
This is all an industrial approach, if you like ... but why am I quoting this
Homemade starter culture is homemade, liquid from the Kaiser, why many do not succeed, if I am not mistaken, it was scheduled for production in a special machine with precise temperature control ...
Therefore, it is difficult to navigate these degrees, another thing is important - the principle ...
If I understand correctly, then there is a leaven that is constantly in production, like liquid. It requires precise technology and absorbs a lot of flour. In production, this is justified.
But the removal of the "chef" - the leaven, its correct storage, and most importantly, the necessary refreshment of a part of the leaven - is much more economical.
Apparently this is what Luda is doing now

Our Levaines sit on heating pads, window sills, and refrigerators, laughing: they are confused

Well, you can sing a song for them

Sing along! (at 1 am)

[chef or seed culture]

And we don't have 12 hours yet and a little more with cooking

Rose Levy Beranbaum reports that the name chef or seed culture (culture for sowing) is given to the leaven on the first its stages.
Then it is called in English sourdough culture (sour dough sourdough).
Keeping the ripe sourdough warm and feeding it daily will soften the taste of the finished bread and reduce the sour taste characteristic of sourdough dough. The fact is that lactic acid bacteria (providing mild taste) are sensitive to cold; they develop better in warmth. And vinegar bacteria tolerate cold well and are more resistant to lack of food.
Dense starter culture needs less feeding, it is more aromatic. You can easily convert a liquid starter culture into a dense one, and vice versa.
Source: The Bread Bible

Here I am just sitting with one hand stirring the leaven - I refresh it, with the other hand I press the buttons on my computer. Sarychevskaya smells sweet !!! She stood warm. And the Frenchwoman was offended, I left her under the window yesterday, because now she just smells of vinegar. I refreshed it, tomorrow morning I will refresh it again and urgently bake something, until she is not at all angry.

But I just fed my grape, I revered you

I should note that a few extra feeds of Sarychevskaya sourdough before going into storage really did good, it really has not just a pleasant smell, but a scent
Apparently, tomorrow I will bake all day.

Ffsyo, I press the Off button.

[Luda mariana-aga]

some more useful information about this method, the original is here 🔗... I quote from the article Luda mariana-aga verbatim:

"The explanation for the method of cold preservation and de-preservation at 30C is as follows.

1) When the sourdough is peroxidized in the heat, 5 times more microorganisms die in it than when stored for the same period in the cold. Apparently, this is the reason for the reduced lifting force of the starter cultures, which are stored at room T.

2) When de-preserving the sourdough, it is important to feed a small amount of fresh dough so as not to contaminate the dough with acid-resistant putrefactive bacteria from a fresh portion of flour. Sourdough dough, re-preserved at cool room temperature, fed with a large amount of unleavened dough, may not rot, but this is not the point. It's about the competition of microorganisms for nutrients in flour. The more food putrefactive bacteria eat in the flour, the less good ICD will get.

3) When the starter is cooled, wild yeast stops multiplying (but does not stop producing gas) at 8C. Lactic acid bacteria in the dough stop multiplying at 4C, and for kefir, I read that ICD stop multiplying at 10C. Therefore, for storage in the cold, it is necessary to cool the starter well in order to inhibit the reproduction of microorganisms and the production of gas and acid by them.

Acid in excess is mostly fatal to wild yeast, as is the excess amount of alcohol it produces! That is, you need the dough to stand completely frozen and not become sour or fluffier over time in the refrigerator. Cooling in the range of 2-6C, however, differs from freezing starter cultures in that when cooled, ice crystals are not formed, which break the cells from the inside.



4) De-preservation and fermentation of the starter culture at 28-32C, recommended by GOSTs, is mainly due to the fact that at 28C the yeast doubles its biomass every 60 minutes, and at 32C the number of lactic acid bacteria doubles every 45 minutes. Therefore, in the region of 30C, the best conditions are achieved for the restoration of the number of cells of wild yeast and lactic acid bacteria during deconservation.

At 30C, wild yeast produces the maximum amount of gas, which is why the leaven "boils", foams violently, and the bread swells well during fermentation and proving of sour bread with sourdough. At the same time, at 30C, ICB produces a large amount of acid (maximum at 34C).

Care should be taken when de-preserving and heated fermentation. 30C - well, a maximum of 32C is the best. When the sourdough dough is heated to 35C, wild yeast will stop multiplying, that is, it will not be possible to restore the lifting force of the sourdough to the strongest one.

5) During de-preservation, even if the cold starter was fed with flour with hot water, so that its T immediately became optimal, in the region of 30C, during the first hour after removal from the drain, little happens. This first hour is called the latency period in the growth of microorganisms, when they assimilate and adhere to new conditions (warm and tasty). This is followed by an extremely rapid growth, an exponential increase in the number of cells of microorganisms.

Therefore, if the starter culture was kept in the cold without refreshing for a very long time, say 5 days, and the number of living cells in it decreased tenfold, or 7 days, and the number of cells decreased one hundred times, then give your starter culture a full 4-4.5 hours of de-preservation at 30C, or even freshen it up a couple of times (give it a total of 5-9 hours at 30C) before you start baking the sourdough bread. "

girls, I am completely delighted with this method, as the leaven, "awakened" at 30C, smells fragrant, I have not smelled a single leaven before .. just a magical bread aroma

girls, I am completely delighted with this method. The girl loves how the leaven "woke up" at 30C smells fragrant, I have not smelled a single leaven before .. just a magical bread aroma

And I told you !!! The smell is just heavenly! So strong !!!

I baked bread on Sarychevskaya sourdough, and nothing super-duper's came out. The bread is the most common. I always got this on the "eternal" from Luca, and climbed faster. The leaven is still fragrant, such a rich scent of leavened fruit with fruit. So for myself, I did not find anything special in it, if only I tried to make kvass on it.

Perhaps you have more experience than mine ... I only had a Frenchwoman.
Rye, and even on rye wallpaper flour, I liked better.

Dear starters My head is spinning from the abundance of new information for me ... Please advise where to start ... Which starter is suitable for beginners? Less capricious, so to speak ... For wheat and rye bread.

Dear starters My head is spinning from the abundance of new information for me ... Please advise where to start ... Which starter is suitable for beginners? Less capricious, so to speak ... For wheat and rye bread.

Take any sourdough recipe based on:
the products you have,
temperature, regime that you can maintain for the sourdough,
the frequency of feedings that you can maintain.

It was easier for me to start with "Eternal" from Luca. There the proportion is always 1: 1, and everything is simple.

Any leaven can be capricious, and vice versa, depending on the moon, your mood, drafts, etc.
Take the one to which the soul lies, then you will have love and harmony with the leaven (after all, it is alive)
Good luck

It was easier for me to start with "Eternal" from Luca. There the proportion is always 1: 1, and everything is simple.

Thank you!

Please tell me, I have a dry leaven Diamant-ROGI DUNKEL - Diamant-ROGI DUNKEL from the bread empire,
Should it be used dry or diluted with water?

Here is its composition: extract of rye flour, rye malt flour, acidifiers (lactic acid bacteria), emulsifier (soy lecithin), whey powder.

I ordered it for making wheat-rye breads.

This starter is used dry. But if you can do without yeast when using liquid starter cultures, then you can't do it. And I really like the taste and smell.

please tell me, I have grown rye sourdough, but I bake so far only in a bread maker, can I replace the sourdough in recipes with my sourdough, this time, and second - can I add sourdough to recipes if it is not there and if possible, then instead of what and how to calculate how much to subtract flour and water. and if the sourdough is rye, can it be added to wheat bread

Girls, how can I transport the leaven to the dacha without loss. Now it's in the refrigerator. Before leaving, feed or after driving ???

Girls, how can I transport the leaven to the dacha without loss. Now it's in the refrigerator. Before leaving, feed or after driving ???

And in more detail: how long to go? Is your sourdough liquid or what? Here they drove and were already sent by mail, I'm sure - we'll take it!

please tell me, I have grown rye sourdough, but I bake so far only in a bread maker, can I replace the sourdough in recipes with my sourdough, this time, and second - can I add sourdough to recipes if it is not there and if possible, then instead of what and how to calculate how much to subtract flour and water. and if the sourdough is rye, can it be added to wheat bread

I answer point by point.
1. You can replace the dough with sourdough
2. If there is no leaven in the recipe, you can still add it. If the sourdough is 100% hydrated (100 g of water + 100 flour), then adding 200 g of the sourdough you subtract 100 g of water and 100 g of flour.
3. If you feed the rye sourdough with wheat flour for a couple of days, you can add it to wheat bread. And if you add pure rye, then the bread will turn out to be wheat-rye.

And in more detail: how long to go? Is your sourdough liquid or what?

Liquid French sourdough. The ride takes about 1-1.5 hours.

Mistletok, so there are no problems at all - you feed it thicker (1: 1: 3) - and you will take it without problems, there will be such a dense lump of dough. Just put it in the trunk so that it does not shake, and the thick leaven normally tolerates small bumps
And then you feed again as usual

[rinishek]

rinishek , I realized thanks! I will try to save. In the last heat, the previous leaven died. I will take care of this !!

Oh! girls, what are you great! thank you very much. and if the leaven is in the refrigerator, how to prepare it?

Oh! girls, what are you great! thank you very much. and if the leaven is in the refrigerator, how to prepare it?

Warm and feed

and feed 50 to 50 or only 100 to 100 and how much starter to take for this portion of feeding?

Tell me please!
In recipes on the forum, they often write "sourdough 100%". What does it mean? And is there a different%?

Tell me please!
In recipes on the forum, they often write "sourdough 100%". What does it mean? And is there a different%?

This means that flour and water in such a leaven is present in equal parts, that is, equally (for example, 100 g of water and 100 g of flour). This is the percentage of moisture in the starter. Like so.

Hello, the starter was in the refrigerator for 3 days, now I took it out to feed it before using it. The smell of alcohol is a little harsh, there are few bubbles. Can you please tell me, does this mean that it has deteriorated?

does it mean that it has deteriorated?

No! This means that you do not need to sniff what you take out of the refrigerator.
When you took a part of the leaven and put it in the refrigerator, it fell asleep there and this is what is usually called the word "starter", that is, you cannot oven on this, but you need to get it, let it warm up, feed it, let it ferment and you get the leaven, suitable for baking. Here you can already smell, examine and even taste.

Viki, thanks! I did so, I even baked some bread: girl_dough

I ask for help. Help me to understand. The "eternal" sourdoughs and hops like they turned out yesterday were put on "eternal" bread made from wheat and rye flour. I was very worried, but it just turned out quite good, only the crust is painfully tough, What is the reason? And today I put wheat on the hop one, but it did not rise and it is sour and the crust is also tough. I put the starter cultures in the refrigerator. Please, I will write an algorithm for my further actions, and you will correct it and tell me how to do it correctly.

In the morning I take out 150 g of sourdough from the refrigerator, let it warm up. I put 150 g of flour and 150 g of water in 100 g of sourdough and wait for it to increase, and then, according to the recipe, I put everything in the CP and bake bread, and in 50 g of sourdough I add 100 g of flour and water and put it in the refrigerator (or let her rise, and then put it in the refrigerator). I repeat everything for tomorrow. If I don't bake bread for several days, then every day you need to add flour and water to the leaven, and again let it rise and then put it in the refrigerator or after feeding it, put it in the refrigerator.

[Sofa]

Sofa
I can write to you as I do. I have rye sourdough for hops. I don't bake wheat on it, only rye or from a mixture of rye and wheat flour. It stands in my refrigerator without feeding for a week, and sometimes up to 10 days. When I need to bake bread, I take 50 g of sourdough the day before, feed 3 parts of water, 2 parts of flour, that is, 75 g of boiling water for 50 g of rye flour, brew and mix with sourdough, sometimes I add 1/2 tsp. l honey. I put it in a warm place for 6-8 hours until it doubles. If this sourdough is not enough for me, I feed it again, maybe not with brewed flour. After the second feeding, it is stronger. I put the remains of the well-fermented starter in the refrigerator until next time.
With this leaven, I bake bread without adding yeast, everything raises well.
Good luck and good bread.

Thank you very much.

All a good day and delicious bread! The articles on this link helped me a lot. Lots of useful materials. Take a look.
🔗

No! This means that you do not need to sniff what you take out of the refrigerator.

Sorry Viki didn’t listen. Once again she took the starter out of the refrigerator and sniffed.Now it smells like acetone, don't pay attention anyway? Heat, feed and bake? I am so worried, because my one-year-old baby loves to mash bread .. This is probably all due to the fact that I did not fully understand how to properly feed the sourdough and do everything by sight, add flour, water to a certain consistency and that's it: - (. It's just that now it is quite difficult with time, and there is so much information and contradicting each other .. Please, do not throw slippers.

Actually, the question is what signs indicate that the leaven has deteriorated.

The smell of acetone, the appearance of multi-colored mold, stratification - signs of deterioration of the leaven, alas ... throw it away

Thank you, I threw it away ... Has it deteriorated, didn’t take care of it properly? It seems that I took the "lightest" whole grain from Alexandra.

[Anaska]

The smell of acetone, the appearance of multi-colored mold, stratification - signs of deterioration of the leaven, alas ... throw it away

99% agree! I just want to add that the stratification, when the liquid is at the bottom, is definitely the finish. When the liquid is on top, it is too liquid and asks for flour.
Alas, Anaska, the smell of acetone is a sign of spoilage. Very sorry. Whole grain flour is generally a capricious thing and does not last long, and quickly goes rancid. I read many different opinions and noticed that after grinding, whole grain flour needs to be kept for some time under certain storage conditions and only then can you bake it, and our manufacturers do not always follow these rules, so it is difficult to find good flour from whole grains. Perhaps it's a matter of flour, not improper care. I prefer to keep the starter on regular wheat flour and feed it with whole flour before baking whole grain bread.