Starter cultures - in questions and answers

... I want to make rejuvenation - as I understand it, this is useful for leavening. After I rejuvenate it, where should I put it? On the battery (35C), in the room (25C), on the windowsill (10C)?

And the leaven was asked if she wants to rejuvenate? We rejuvenate when peroxide is a must. And they do not seek from goodness. And you can feed it 50 + 50 + 50, or you can 50 + 100 + 100 as it gets stronger.
But if you really want to .... I usually rejuvenate at room temperature. And I tried both in the warm and in the cold. As for me, the optimal value is 23 - 26 * С. And then store it as usual. That is ... as she is used to.
Only now she is still young to rejuvenate now. Let her grow stronger. Well, at least a week.

[everything is confused.]

everything is confused... get stronger, rejuvenate and how to know that she is stronger?
I finished growing Sourdough yesterday, she spent the night at the withers, took it out in the morning (she didn't feed it ... she grew up), stood in the room. at 20.00 I started the dough, + yeast, maybe young ... then the bread does not rise very much ...
I put the starter in the cold ... and then, as I understand it, in 5 days, how will I again bake bread-get-feed 50; 50 hours at 12-18 in warm or cold? don't know and making dough?
Help ... clarify

I finished growing Sourdough yesterday, she spent the night at the withers, took it out in the morning (she didn't feed it ... she grew up), stood in the room. at 20.00 I started the dough, + yeast, maybe young ... then the bread does not rise very much ...

Got hungry out of the refrigerator, left hungry until evening?

I put the starter in the hall.

What do you call a starter? A starter is when you feed and hold for a couple of hours at room temperature, and then put it in the refrigerator. What did you put there?

5 days later, how will I again bake bread-get-feed 50; 50 hours at 12-18 in warm or cold? don't know and making dough?

Here! And talk about confused ...

We take it out in advance, feed it, leave it warm or just at room temperature, wait until it doubles, take as much as needed into the dough, feed the rest, wait an hour and put it in the refrigerator.

Thank you very much Viki! I really read the message too late, but I didn’t succeed in rejuvenation, but it seemed like feeding 25:50:50. I put it on the windowsill, I hope she has enough food for a couple of days. Otherwise, you can't bake every day. She's acidic when she eats everything, right?
And here is my second, semi-leavened (because I still put 1/3 of the yeast) proofing for 2 hours 20 minutes - it happened - I was leaving

... I hope she has enough food for a couple of days. Otherwise, you can't bake every day.

Not the fact that enough. And hunger will definitely not do her good. To feed her every day. Spend the extra 50 g of flour a day, but the leaven will be healthy and active.

And here is my second, semi-leavened

What a cute And how does it taste?

Not the fact that enough. And hunger will definitely not do her good. To feed her every day. Spend the extra 50 g of flour a day, but the leaven will be healthy and active.
What a cute And how does it taste?

I don't know the taste yet - it is still cooling. But I like the smell! The previous breads, which were without sourdough, only with yeast, contained the smell of yeast and my sensitive nose caught them, although my husband did not smell anything like that and now generally thinks that I am engaged in shamanism. The smell was only when the bread was still warm. And from this a completely different smell, tasteful ...

I could not resist - I tried. It turned out delicious, but still a barely noticeable sourness is present (after all, I made the leaven on rye flour, fearing that it would go out on wheat flour) - but just for sandwiches! Now I will try to feed the sourdough in half - half wheat and half rye, I wonder how it will behave.

Viki,
apparently put her hungry in the hall
that's what happened ... (but Pashkin's leaven) was
made bread ... it rose (+ added yeast for the first time), soft lump and opal, when I began to cut the dough (bread came out heavy
here is the photo




and that dough, maybe liquid ?? it came up here once, and I knocked him out

Good time of the day! I'm still a beginner, so don't blame me for stupidity. I bake bread every day. Do I need to put the leaven in the refrigerator with this baking mode. Or use, let's say, take 200 grams of sourdough into the business, and add 100g of water, 100 flour there and again to a warm place (I try the eternal sourdough). I tried 1st grade wheat with sourdough - it rose weakly, the roof is cracked, the smell of bread gives off mash (although not a gram of tremors and hops). I did this: 125 grams of flour to the bottom of the bucket, followed by 200 grams of sourdough (I took from a warm place, took 200 grams, added 100 water + 100 flour and again to a warm place), then 375 grams of flour and sugar, salt, 2 tsp., 250 gram of water + 20 grams of vegetable oil. And all this in a bread maker for "French" mode (x \ n panasonic sd 257). The result was not impressive. By leaps and bounds, I have not spoiled a single one for 2 months of daily use. And I want to be closer to natural ...

Pure leavened bread in a bread maker is not very good. He does not have enough time for fermentation and proofing and baking temperature. It is better to bake it in the oven. If you bake the starter culture every day, you don't need to put it in the refrigerator. Keep it warm after feeding for a couple of hours, and then on the windowsill or on the cabinet.

... The result was not impressive. By leaps and bounds, I have not spoiled a single one for 2 months of daily use. And I want to be closer to natural ...

What did you not impress with the bread? Didn't get up? Not baked? What is the essence of failure in your opinion?

What did you not impress with the bread? Didn't get up? Not baked? What is the essence of failure in your opinion?

Has risen weakly, the roof is cracked, the smell of bread gives off mash, rather dense, heavy, although it seems to be baked.
The smell of the bread reminds of leaven, maybe it didn't win? I just started doing this, so there is still no skill in determining the readiness of the leaven.
Maybe before you put something with it from the jar into the bucket of the bread machine? Let them sit in a bucket for some time, and only then turn it on? Today I poured 125 grams of flour into a bucket, poured 100 ml of water, put 200 grams of sourdough and two tsp. sugar, mixed for 5 minutes in pizza mode, added 375 grams of flour, poured 150 ml of water, added 2 tsp. salt and 18 grams of post. oils. He let it stand for 4 hours and turned on the bread maker in French mode. In the morning I'll see the result.

the smell of bread gives off a mash, rather dense, heavy, although it seems to be baked

1) the leaven itself should not smell like mash. if it is, then you need to bring it to mind, - feed it daily 1: 2 until a pleasant fruity smell appears (it does not look like mash at all)
2) before you put the leaven into the dough, you need to feed it and let it rise well, then let it knead.
3) even if you put the sourdough bread on the longest HP mode, then the automatic kneading, calculated for yeast bread, will interfere with the process of raising the dough, especially the last kneading before baking, after which the dough simply does not have time to rise.
If the bread is rye, knead and remove the mixer. If wheat or mixed, then after the first stirring, get the mixer too. In any case, it is very difficult to select the automatic mode for sourdough bread, completely shutting down from the process

I don’t know where to write, I am writing the court if that excuse me. Please help - I bake bread with MK sourdough from Admin. Why does bread burst upwards? Today I made the dough thinner, but everything even cracked up.

If the dough has the correct proportion of water and flour, and the top still cracks, then there is insufficient proofing. Try giving a longer one.

I knead and bake in HP. And I rake it like this: on the program, the dough is 1 hour, then I turn off the HP and another 1 hour, the dough doubles and I turn on the baking program. I am afraid to rake more that the bread will be sour (I had my first one).

my dears! For the second time in all this time, something strange has happened to the leaven.I make "eternal" leaven exactly according to the recipe in the corresponding topic. but after three days, the leaven is cut off! and smells like glue "moment". while it is fermenting, I store it in a glass jar with a closed lid and wrapped in a woolen scarf in a closet at room temperature (and this is somewhere between 18-20 degrees, no higher). what am I doing wrong and what to do with such leaven? baked only two breads in 2 months because of this. tired of eating shop. help me please!

I would throw out this leaven and grow a new one.
Try another French one.

yes, for the third time it turns out to be thrown away. why did it stop working? is the flour bad? or is the water different? I haven't changed the technology!

I also had such a situation .... well, the eternal did not come out in any way .... then I made a semi-finished product with rye .... and a month later it became "eternal" - and now it is inseparably sitting in the refrigerator ..
And then Tahero went, but the grape didn't come out ... try to start with the simplest ...

It also didn't work at first. It turned out and really liked the lactic sour culture from Admin.
Mcooker-enn.tomathouse.com/index.php@option=com_smf&topic=3394.0

no no no! I just got the sourdough perfectly! only an hour ago, it seems, he found the reason: water! we used to buy "rameno", it is slightly mineralized and soft. now we take a "clean spring" - it is also soft, but highly mineralized. most likely, it is her fault - I buy the same flour in the same place.
and if it's about water - what to do? minerals are likely to react with bacteria that are formed as a result of the fermentation of the dough, and the result of this reaction is ... what? acceleration of processes? The leaven smelled like a "moment" if it got spoiled - for example, a couple of times forgot to put it in the refrigerator (still on the same water), it stood on the table for a day and that's it - it was cut off and stank. and here - in theory, it should grow as much as possible, but it is cut off. Smells nicely after 1 day - thick, bubbly, but still clearly under-grown and unripe.
or, on the contrary, does it ripen quickly?
after all, if the point is really in water, then it will be so with any leaven ...

Water? I use ordinary Moscow water supply, only boiled. The rye leaven lives in the refrigerator, it rejoices and makes me happy.

oh, our water cannot be used. first, it is yellow. secondly, the devil knows what stinks. even filters do not save from this stench, although they make it clean, transparent and soft. just an old house, communications too. my friend's water is clean, after filtration it is amazingly tasty. and stinks nothing. and we have...
I had the idea of ​​filtering and putting tap water into the leaven. but somehow I don't want to ...

I knead and bake in HP. And I rake it like this: on the program, the dough is 1 hour, then I turn off the HP and another 1 hour, the dough doubles and I turn on the baking program. I am afraid to rake more that the bread will be sour (I had my first one).

I do not know what our gurus will say, but I chose the time of proofing for the sourdough bread by trial and error. After that I try to bake the sourdough bread in the oven. My bread maker doesn't have enough proofing time for any program. You have to take out the scapula in advance to avoid the last crush. Therefore, it is easier for me to knead in a bread maker and bake in the oven.

I tried to do this: I put 200 grams of leaven in a bucket, added 2 tbsp. l. sugar, 100 ml of water, 100 grams of flour. Knead and sotavil for 5 hours. Then I added 400 grams of flour (steamed up, it would have been 300), 250ml. water, 2h. l. salt and 18 grams of oil. I set the "main-dough" mode. After 3 hours, the dough rose almost to the top of the bucket. Turned on baking for 1 hour. It turned out pretty well. Haven't tasted it yet, but the view is quite decent. The roof is flat, the smell is amazing. But all the same it is necessary to bring the leaven to mind. I will experiment further. Thank you all for the advice, I will unsubscribe on the results.

after all, if the point is really in water, then it will be so with any leaven ...

But lactic acid sourdough is made on whey or kefir. A good option for poor water.

Hello! I'm a beginner, I can't figure out the sourdough in any way ... I couldn't adapt any recipe for sourdough to a bread maker ... I'm wondering how much sourdough should be put instead of yeast? How to determine the ratio of flour and sourdough? How many sourdoughs I have not made, but I cannot adapt them to a bread maker, bricks are obtained I bake bread according to standard recipes from a book on a bread maker, but I really want to bake bread without yeast!

Such a question: is there any difference what sourdough to use? Indeed, in any case, the production of the starter culture is the cultivation of lactic acid bacteria in the dough. And one more thing: is it possible to grow sourdough on pharmacy bifidobacteria and lactobacilli (after all, they are the ones that grow in sourdoughs). Such bacteria produce excellent kefir overnight!

and I have a question. grew spontaneous fermentation rye sourdough. and it is alive and grows well, but for some reason the smell of acetone. so, although alive and well raising the dough, she spoiled ...?

Please tell me, but you can’t use ready-made dry starter cultures that are sold in stores ??? Are these bad leavens or are you just fans of your craft and all by yourself ??? And another question - dry starter cultures are added dry (like yeast) or they also need to be diluted and somehow "Cook" I'm just a beginner

Please tell me, but you can’t use ready-made dry starter cultures, which are sold in stores ??? Are these bad leavens or are you just fans of your craft and all by yourself ??? And another question - dry starter cultures are added dry (like yeast) or they also need to be diluted and somehow "Cook" I'm just a beginner

So we are always glad to newbies!
Let me try to tell you: we all came here as newcomers, began to bake bread and communicate. Many of us started with dry starter cultures (I baked myself on the agram - I remember exactly). And it cannot be said that these are bad leavens. They are dry, they are easy to store ... but - when baking bread becomes a hobby, then very different experiments begin and over time it comes to live sourdough. It is possible that you will join our ranks. We will be glad. Until then, check out this thread:
Agram, Panifarin and others, but there will be time, so look at this entire section Ingredients for baking bread there are many useful things for a beginner.
And in the section "Yeast bread" you will find bread recipes using dry sourdough. After all, dry sourdough works together with yeast. Therefore, they are hiding in our yeast.
Good luck and delicious bread to your home!

Such a question: is there any difference what sourdough to use? Indeed, in any case, the production of sourdough is the cultivation of lactic acid bacteria in the dough. And one more thing: is it possible to grow sourdough on pharmacy bifidobacteria and lactobacilli (after all, it is they that grow in sourdoughs). Such bacteria produce excellent kefir overnight!

There are completely different types of lactic acid bacteria in bread leavens.
Bifido- and lacto- from the pharmacy are good for fermenting milk. But on the forum there is a fermented dairy starter culture from Admin, where, to maintain the balance of bacteria in the starter culture, it is fed with fermented milk products.
Uh, I was scared myself, as I wrote

And even in Soviet times, experiments were carried out on baking bread using bifidobacteria and kefir. The bread rose and baked well.

Try it, maybe you can think of a new kind of leaven

And about the question - what sourdough to use - probably more important is what percentage of moisture in the sourdough. And I "shove" my Frenchwoman everywhere. I even feed rye or whole grain and bake pure rye and whole grain breads on it.

Hello! I'm a beginner, I can't figure out the sourdough in any way ... I couldn't adapt more than one sourdough recipe for a bread maker ...I'm wondering how much starter should I put instead of yeast? How to determine the ratio of flour and sourdough? How many sourdoughs I have not made, but I cannot adapt them to a bread maker, bricks are obtained I bake bread according to standard recipes from a book on a bread maker, but I really want to bake bread without yeast!

Sourdough bread according to the standard program will never work in a bread maker.
He has a completely different rise time. If you want sourdough bread in a bread maker on the standard program, you can add half the yeast. It turns out very well. I do this sometimes when there is no time.

On the forum there are a lot of recipes for sourdough bread using a bread machine. But here, as it were, the bread maker adjusts to the sourdough rhythm. HP does mainly kneading, kneading and baking. Look, the recipes are wonderful

Explain to me, please, I now have 4 starter cultures, raisin, lactic acid, eternal and French rye, and I bake bread every day, one loaf (unfortunately, they don't eat anymore), so the question is how often, and whether I need to feed them my dear ones so that they do not oxyderate and throw away the excess? Yesterday I fed them all in an hour, about, put them in the refrigerator, and today I looked in, they all 4 have grown by half already, how long will they stand without feeding?

Explain to me, please, I now have 4 starter cultures, raisin, lactic sour, eternal and French rye, and I bake bread every day, one loaf (unfortunately, they don't eat anymore), so the question is how often, and whether I need to feed them my dear ones so that they do not oxyderate and do not throw away the excess? Yesterday I fed them all in an hour, about, put them in the refrigerator, and today I looked in, they all 4 have grown by half already, how long will they stand without feeding?

Why do you need so much
Choose your favorite and use Sourdough - this is a universal business, any bread can be baked with any sourdough

and I have a question. grew spontaneous fermentation rye sourdough. and it is alive and grows well, but for some reason the smell of acetone. so, although alive and well raising the dough, she spoiled ...?

I threw out my rye sourdough of spontaneous fermentation, which began to smell like that. After a semi-finished rye product, I know how rye sourdough should smell - a fruity indescribable aroma that you want to sniff and sniff and sniff. Although they write that she may smell like acetone, she did not risk it. Other members of the forum succeed, but I have acetone in the trash! I am no longer friends with her (This is not a recommendation, can I try again?)

Why do you need so much
Choose your favorite and use Sourdough - this is a universal business, any bread can be baked with any sourdough

I haven't chosen my beloved yet only a week since I started so much

so I haven't chosen my beloved only a week since I started so much

Then get ready for the huge amounts of excess I have a Frenchwoman. I have enough of it for all types of bread. On the balcony at 12 degrees (I sometimes punish her poor thing like that) it costs 3 days after an hour of feeding. By the end of 3 days, it is big, viscous, beautiful, fragrant! And as in the refrigerator - it's probably in Temko about your leavens that should be studied. All the same, they are different for you, animals
When I started my "today's" Frenchwoman, I also made several types of sourdough. But she gradually abandoned this, because they also need to be fed, used and stored. It turned out to be difficult. Although I occasionally bud one and keep it on rye flour for several days (for rye and whole grain breads, as well as washing the head with rye sourdough)

[Admin, Vik]

Good evening everyone!
I read the whole topic, all 55 pages (I killed as many as 3 working days for this), periodically my roof left the amount of information and for some time lived separately from me
First of all I want to say THANK YOU VERY MUCH Admin, Viki and everyone who so courageously answers the same questions 100 times
From everything I read, I deduced for myself some algorithm by which I will proceed further
First, about me and my leavens ..
I'll start with the very first one, MK from Admin, which I tried to grow 3 years ago ... But apparently then my time had not come for leaven and bread for them. It was enough for me exactly until the first bread. Then the remaining sourdough was flushed down the drain, although I got it the first time ..

And now my time has come .. I need to raise someone, I decided that it would be French sourdough ...
On Sunday, I put the traditional one, because there was no malt in the house (so it would be immediately on a modern fuse), and I am a conscientious student, since it is said what is needed for a modern one, then we will look
In general, I did not work out with the traditional one, and I also realized that it is more difficult to calculate the proportions with it, and the mathematician with me ... horrible horror ...
The traditional one did not grow a single gram, neither on the first day nor on the second, on the third day it went to the trash can
Today I understood why this happened .. flour was to blame 100%. Today, for comparison, I opened a fresh pack and even by the smell I could hear that the Sunday flour was rancid
Today I put a modern Frenchwoman, she is standing in the oven in the oven, at a temperature of 35 grams. I will grow my Lyalu ..
But even despite the fact that I read the whole Temka, I still have some questions, you will help as much as you can
It's about wheat bread, I rarely bake rye, but aptly
1. For example, the recipe says that you need to add 200 g of sourdough. Anyway, which one ??? eternal, French, raisin or something else ??? if only it was wheat ???
2.Oh .. I forgot what the second question was, but I definitely remember it, I'll write
3. I am very interested in baking sourdough cakes. Easter cakes are always gorgeous for me, but I can't try it with yeast, with sourdough until Easter, fasting ... theme

Well ... for now
Shl to me on YOU

Remembered the second question
About feeding the beast ...
From everything I read, I understood:
a) that from psh. flour of the highest grade, in which there is little tasty, the leaven can get sick
b) that from psh. flour of 1st grade or 2nd grade, where there is a lot of tasty, the sourdough can grow very much
Total .. second question ...
but you can mix these two flours 1 * 1 and feed the animal so that the leaven would behave so mediocre, without fanaticism? or is there no point in this?

1. For example, the recipe says that you need to add 200 g of sourdough. Anyway, which one ??? eternal, French, raisin or something else ??? if only it was wheat ???

Usually they write "wheat sourdough - 200g" - any wheat sourdough will do. The main thing is its moisture. If 100% humidity is written, then it contains 100 grams. flour and 100 gr. water. If the humidity is different, then you can recalculate and mix with this recalculation. We will teach, not a problem.

2. * from psh. flour of the highest grade, in which there is little tasty, the leaven can get sick
* from psh. flour of the 1st grade or 2nd grade, where there is a lot of tasty, the leaven can grow very much
Total .. second question ...
but you can mix these two flours 1 * 1 and feed the animal so that the leaven would behave so mediocre, without fanaticism? or is there no point in this?

It depends on whom to mix with whom. If the flour is of the highest grade with second grade flour, it makes no sense. You can just take first grade flour and get the same result. The highest with the first can be mixed in half. Or you can just feed her with the first grade and also not know the problems. For example, flour of the first grade is the cheapest, I take a bag and go.

3. I am very interested in baking sourdough cakes.

There is still time, let's try to find something.
Only for baking cakes, the leaven is put on a special diet in a couple of days. So to speak - they de-acidify. It should become strong without accumulating acid. The whole thing. I will look for information, I remember exactly that there was it somewhere.

Vicki thank you so much

French modern DOESN'T GROW
All night I stood in the oven at a rate of 35 degrees ... and only covered with a crust, although it was covered with a lid
My hands are growing from the wrong place or something ..
I've already taken another flour and still can't

I bought a third type of flour, in the evening I'll put a new one

And this year I am going to transfer my favorite cake from yeast to sourdough, closer to April I will lay it out ... all my hands do not reach

[Viki]

French modern DOESN'T GROW
All night I stood in the oven at a rate of 35 degrees ... and only covered with a crust, although it was covered with a lid
My hands are growing from the wrong place or something ..
I've already taken another flour and still can't

I bought a third type of flour, in the evening I'll put a new one

My modern French woman grew up at room temperature. True, it's warm here - 25-26 degrees. And 35 is probably too much. Yeast is very bad at such a high. And maybe it's covered with a crust - it's fried

Simultaneously with the French woman, she raised others, also at room temperature, and everything worked out. I feed the highest grade. Occasionally I spoil the first and slightly rye flour with a drop of honey.

Easter cakes! Give it on leaven. Viki, ilonnna, will wait!

And 35 is probably too much. Yeast is very bad at such a high. And maybe it's covered with a crust - it's fried

the recipe actually says (both on this site and on others) that it should be grown nuna at 30-40 degrees, so I think it's not about the temperature, but something else ... maybe in my hands ...

Or maybe the sourdough doesn't work because I make it on peeled rye flour ???

I just don't know what to think anymore. Today I bought the freshest flour that I could find .. and a different brand of flour. And I tried the water, both bottled and from the tap (we have normal water, you can even drink it, it doesn't smell at all and tastes good). And I poked my fingers in the leaven.
In general, I've already tried everything, I no longer know where to rush ...
Now I have staged both a traditional and a modern French woman. But I no longer believe in success. If I fail again, then I'll go make raisins, although it's still a hot Frenchwoman.
But there will be no choice ...
But if the raisin does not work out, then I will tie it with sourdough until the new moon
And if it doesn't work for the new moon, then I'll tie it up with sourdough altogether

[Gerda1]

Now I have staged both a traditional and a modern French woman. But I no longer believe in success. If I fail again, then I'll go make raisins, although it's still a hot Frenchwoman.
But there will be no choice ...
But if the raisin does not work out, then I will tie it with sourdough until the new moon
And if it doesn't work for the new moon, then I'll tie it up with sourdoughs.

Gerda1, well, what are those notes of despair in your voice? Everything will work out! I also have peeled flour, everything works out. It seemed to me at the second and third stages that nothing was happening either, but it happened, however. Maybe lay out the photos step by step, what is happening there, and Vika will come and tell you for sure.

so what is there in stages you can lay out that ???
I did not go further than the first ...
The modern one again by the morning was covered with a crust, but inside it seemed like something was bubbling .. with a pitiful likeness I took off the crust, left it in the same place, let's see what she tells me in the evening
Traditional ... finally nothing happens ... but it's good that at least there is no crust, just soft dough ...
I'll go and I'll torture the raisins now

Listen ....
Or maybe the sourdough is capricious because of the large container ???
I am trying to grow a modern one in a 3-liter bowl. Mot in a smaller jar to try?

Hello everyone, I became the owner of a bread machine.
I have any questions about the further use of the starter culture?
At the moment, the leaven is in the refrigerator and is puffing fun.
Question: To make bread, you need to get the leaven - pour, for example, 200 ml.
Do you need to heat it up? That is, what manipulations with the leaven should be done before
how to put C / n for dough preparation?

Before you put the leaven into the dough, you need to feed it. that is, bring it to the peak of activity.If you are going to bake bread in the evening, feed the sourdough in the morning and vice versa. Only if you bake in HP will you have to add a little yeast. None of the bread maker programs give enough time to ferment the sourdough dough. I bake sourdough bread in the oven. The bread maker just kneads them for me.

Dachnycha THANKS !!!
Now it became clear to me.
Regarding the X / P, and if you press before the cotton, the mode will turn on
baking press STOP and visually control the fermentation of the dough by
volume, and then press STOP again to replay the mode?

Take me into the ranks too. I made hop sourdough on rye flour. Now I have a question, I tried to bake several breads, they take about 7 hours to rise, and the crumb turns out something like this:, that is, compared to yeast, not very. This is normal? Or should I re-start the leaven, or maybe work with this one more? In the photo, 100 g whole grain wheat bread + 300 premium flour + 200 g rye sourdough of fed whole wheat wheat (I took 200 g of rye and fed 100 g of whole grain wheat + 100 ml of water)