Professional opinion on starter cultures. Reply to my letter

Some time ago I sent an email to the St. Petersburg branch of the GOSNII of the baking industry with my questions about sourdough. I received a very interesting answer, which will probably be interesting to many. It concerns not only my questions, but also other aspects of breeding. I am posting an answer with their permission:

Hello,

Could you please provide professional advice?

Many people make homemade bread with spontaneously fermented sourdough (no traditional yeast). For example, a very large discussion of sourdough bread recipes on the forum: https://Mcooker-enn.tomathouse.com/index.php@option=com_smf#22

But I am concerned about the possible release of methanol by the leaven.

The sourdough is prepared once and then used for up to six months. It is refreshed daily 2 times in a 1: 2 ratio, after 6 hours the leaven rises 3-4 times and can be used for baking bread.

I know that alcohol and various impurities are released during fermentation. In your opinion, does the sourdough release methanol during fermentation? Since the leaven is in the kitchen, it can continuously release various gases. It is also recommended to evaluate the quality and readiness of the sourdough by its smell.

Could this be harmful to health, primarily for vision?

I would be grateful for your answer and I can post it on the forum for other people.

Hello Igor!

In order to answer this question, you need to understand the microflora of spontaneous starter cultures.

A wide variety of microorganisms, including yeast and lactic acid bacteria, develop in home-made (spontaneous) starter cultures, which get there along with the flour. Microbial contamination of flour occurs at all stages of its production - in the field, in ears, grain, then from the surface of equipment and air in mills and storage facilities. As soon as the flour is mixed with water, yeast, lactic acid bacteria and other microorganisms begin to multiply actively. Depending on the region, climatic conditions, specific field, mill and storage - the microflora of flour can vary greatly. The flour contains not only useful types of lactic acid bacteria and yeast, but also pathogenic yeast (for example, pathogenic yeast strains of the genus Candida that cause thrush), harmful spore-forming bacteria that cause toxicosis and do not die during baking, as well as mold spores, acetic bacteria, propionic acid and butyric bacteria and others. Hops, berries, raisins, grape seeds, malt - everything that is often used for breeding ferments at home - also contains a rich microflora.

Therefore, the removal of starter cultures at home turns into a kind of lottery. If you are lucky and come across a good batch of flour (as well as malt, hops, etc.), you will get an excellent sourdough, with good microflora, with good fermentation qualities, which gives excellent bread. If you are unlucky, you will come across a bad batch of flour contaminated with unwanted microbes - and the leaven at home will not be of the best quality. With frequent changes of flour lots, the quality of the sourdough will generally be extremely unstable.

And as you know, the quality of bread directly depends on the quality of the leaven. Therefore, since the 30s of the last century, domestic microbiologists have comprehensively studied the microflora of starter cultures at various enterprises in the country. It was found that homo- and heteroenzymatic lactic acid bacteria in a certain ratio and yeast of the genus Saccharomyces dominate in good quality starter cultures.

The beneficial microorganisms isolated from good quality starter cultures were subcultured onto malt wort in order to maintain them in the collection and send them to bakers who did not have good starter cultures. Studies have shown that the use of microbes obtained from good natural starter cultures allows you to regulate the composition of the microflora of the starter culture and ensure that you get a high quality starter culture with a typical microflora, since the introduction of beneficial microorganisms in an initially dominant amount suppresses the development of acetic acid, butyric acid, propionic acid and toxic spore-forming bacteria, molds and etc.

Thus, the fermenting microflora of a good starter culture, bred on pure cultures of beneficial microorganisms, does not form substances that adversely affect human health (in particular, methanol). Therefore, keeping it in a room where people are constantly present, as well as using it in the production of bread, does not harm human health. Microflora of starter cultures, withdrawn spontaneously, can vary greatly and requires detailed analysis before giving an accurate conclusion about the absence of a negative effect, especially with prolonged daily use.

As you can see, it is difficult to give a definite answer here. On the one hand, centuries of experience in baking around the world show that spontaneous starter cultures can be successfully used in bread production. On the other hand, detailed studies on the effect of microorganisms and their metabolic products on human health are relatively recent. We can only speak with confidence about the influence of the microflora of the starter cultures bred on pure cultures of microorganisms on the quality of bread and its microbiological safety during storage.

If you have additional questions, you can write to the same address or call: 8 (812) 3860001 additional 2 (microbiological laboratory).

And another quote from the second letter:

Having looked at the topics about ferments on the forum, we can also add that the deterioration in the quality of the ferment, which the forum users associate with the appearance of thiols in the ferment, is also due to the quality of the flour, the composition of its microflora. But this is a problem when making only spontaneous starter cultures. Such a disaster does not happen in leavens bred on pure cultures of microorganisms.

Well, our scientists are still talking to someone NOT a professional! Thank you for your work, you have dispelled a lot of speculation and disputes about sourdough.

I was also pleasantly surprised by the quick response from the St. Petersburg branch of the State Scientific Research Institute of the Bakery Industry. How detailed and comprehensively did they cover this topic. Real professionals who love what they do.

It is very interesting, and those that live in / on flour are any microorganisms good or bad, do they survive when baking ??
As far as I know, other / pathogenic ones die during lactic acid fermentation. Example: pickling cabbage, cucumbers.

Good afternoon everyone!
After that, doubt overwhelmed me ... what to do now, how can I be sure of the quality of purchased flour and who can live there ...
It became sad: girl_cray1: I really wanted to feed my family with a healthy bread.
Maybe someone will calm me down ...

Good afternoon everyone!
After that, doubt seized me ... what to do now, how can you be sure of the quality of the flour you buy and who can live there ...
It became sad: girl_cray1: and so I wanted to feed my family with a healthy bread.
Maybe someone will calm me down ...

Are you sure that the stores are feeding you other bread, from pure flour? Well, at least read the bread label, at least one line later!

The most correct thing is to learn to understand the quality of the ingredients for baking, draw a conclusion and bake your homemade bread.

Good day to all! Hello Admin! Thank you for your feedback.
But the fact is that I have long known the difference between store-bought bread and bread of my own production.I've been baking bread myself in a bread maker for a year now, but I always dreamed of baking it with sourdough and thanks to your forum I got down to business ...
There is no need to complain, everything turns out not bad at all, there are, of course, and ..... small mistakes, but on the whole I am very satisfied. The only problem is that I really want everything to be competent in terms of health benefits. And the fact that we do not eat purchased bread makes me very happy. But the subtleties in terms of the "health" of the leaven confuse my peace.
Tell me how you can be sure that exactly the bacteria and fungi that we need are formed in it and there is no one who could harm us.
I feed the bread to the dearest and nearest
To be honest, I was seriously puzzled and the peace was broken
Therefore, I could not resist and from passive study of your forum, I moved into the active stage of communication.
I am grateful in advance to everyone who will respond to my question and share some information in an accessible form.
Have a nice day, everyone.

Therefore, I could not resist and from passive study of your forum, I moved into the active stage of communication.
I am grateful in advance to everyone who will respond to my question and share some information in an accessible form.
Have a nice day, everyone.

That's just, this is not the way and method to find out the quality of the leaven for a healthy way of life. Now the whole forum will come running and tell you what it considers necessary to say, just express itself on the subject "I do / think so". We are all home bakers of bread here.

Want to know more?
We go to the libraries, read specials. literature and analyze
We read the history of baking in Russia from Tsar Pea, which was used in Russia instead of yeast, and for centuries, on what, from what and how bread was baked.
You can also look into this topic. Why is store-bought bread tastier ?! https://Mcooker-enn.tomathouse.com/index.php@option=com_smf&topic=4325.0
We go to bakeries, meet with technologists, study, analyze
We bake ourselves, analyze, learn, draw conclusions
Etc...
This is a lot of work, a lot of time and desire to do it.

And so ... it is useless to stir up the forum once again ... we have already passed this ...

Good day to all! Good afternoon, Admin!
Exciting the forum was not part of my plans. The only thing I wanted was for people who know this topic to respond, maybe even professionally.
In my opinion, forums for this exist to help normal people share information, their knowledge and experience. Unfortunately, not everyone can sit in libraries and meet technologists at bakeries.

Good afternoon everyone!
After that, doubt overwhelmed me ... what to do now, how can I be sure of the quality of purchased flour and who can live there ...
It became sad: girl_cray1: and so I wanted to feed my family with a healthy bread.
Maybe someone will calm me down ...

EXACTLY! and doubts overwhelmed me (((Interestingly, can you get these "pure" leavens on the right microorganisms somewhere?

I happened to be passing by. About the quality of flour in our stores, we recently had a conversation at a culinary master class. Among the leaders of these classes is just one microbiologist from the Vishnevsky Institute. I will not say for all the flour in the whole country, but he says about the Moscow flour: it is of very good quality. This refers to the one that is sold in stores for household use, homemade baked goods. It seems that, according to him, it is even possible not to sift it, since it is worked out and packed so that it does not cake.
I think that all of us who take a responsible approach to what they feed their families with should be guided by trustworthy manufacturers who produce products in accordance with GOST standards, and by retail chains that have not noticed violations of trade rules.
It's no secret that the smell in the store says a lot. And it happens that they have moths in their cereals, sugar in bags is wet, etc. From there, you just need to get your feet off and not risk it. Already there is enough on the products of pathogenic microflora.
Of course, home conditions are far from laboratory sterility, but still, even experts say that it is quite possible to grow a decent leaven at home. So we will strive for this

Ikra, the quality of flour does not scare me, my home microflora scares me. In the fall, black mold started up in our apartment. poisoned all over the house, even started up in one kitchen drawer - on the outer walls, which can be seen when the whole drawer is pulled out. I really want to learn how to make sourdough bread. I've been sitting on the forum for a week now, studying. I just can't decide on a suitable leaven))). As far as I understand, all nasty things cannot develop if there are initially many useful microorganisms. Therefore, the question arose - can there be ready-made starter cultures with the necessary flora, or can you buy some bifidumbacterin at the pharmacy?

I once bought a liquid sourdough in the Nilov Hermitage, near Ostashkov. They have their own bakery and a stall where they sell monastery baked goods and these sourdough cultures in sealed plastic bottles. I kept it unopened in the refrigerator, but when I opened it, I still had to feed it with my own flour. So any kind of foreign microorganisms could get there. But the bread was good.
I know that many residents of Krasnogorsk travel to those regions, maybe there is a familiar fisherman and a fan of the Seligersky region? Let them come in and bring it, the price, if I am not confused, is either 100 or 150 rubles. for a half-liter bottle.
You can still try to go to the nearest bakery. Here, a lot depends on charm, maybe someone will take out the jar

Effe

can there be ready-made starter cultures with the necessary flora, or can you buy some bifidumbacterin at the pharmacy?

Very often I see the sale of dry bread starter cultures in online stores, both in Russia and in Ukraine, google it!
that's offhand
🔗

Thanks everyone for the answers! From the fact that, scientists answered, feeding with your own flour is not scary - there will already be healthy flora in the leaven and a lot, it means that pathogens will be crushed. And I haven't heard about dry starter cultures - I'll go google)))

Here, in Sviblovo, liquid live sourdough was also found: rf / katalog / internet-magazin / vypechka-hleba / zakvaska / zakvaska-hmelevaja-dlja-vypechki-hleba-1361

I periodically add Emochki (effective microorganisms) to the starter culture, they suppress all pathogenic flora.

I periodically add Emochki (effective microorganisms) to the starter culture, they suppress all pathogenic flora.

And where do you get it and what is it called? And at what stage of starter production are they introduced? It seems that this is exactly what I need!

Effe, have you found the sourdough nearby? I live near you, in Zelenograd. I also want to start baking sourdough bread and choose a more optimal option to cope with it and feed the children with tasty and healthy bread.