Ripe dough bread (oven)

YES, the bread turned out to be very tasty, but such a question, can I replace rye flour with wheat flour, my husband wants a very white crumb, he is very prejudiced towards a gray one? and it was also noticed that the dough did not increase in volume, and the dough, respectively, too, but I closed my eyes and did not regret it. But maybe I'm doing something wrong, maybe I greased the dough bowl a lot with oil, or it doesn't affect. here is my brainchild

see, it is noticeable that the crumb is not very correct (I don't know how to call it). What do experts think?

[elena ... nice74]

elena ... nice74
You can easily replace rye flour with wheat flour, it's a matter of taste.
But to be honest, you don't really feel it there.
Your bread is good, the crust is golden and crispy.
During stretching a couple of times it is good to stretch the dough and fold it after 30 and 40 minutes and then put it in the oven with the light on at 28-30 gr. or in the microwave with a cup of boiling water. It is very important to let the dough grow well so that the dough grows well. When shaping the bread, gently release the air from the dough, then the porosity will be more uniform. And what is greased with oil does not have a big effect, I also always grease the bowl p. m.
The dough rises better if you mix water with sour milk: kefir, yogurt ..., whey from cottage cheese .... In the answer on August 23-30, I showed bread baked with kefir and without rye flour.
I wish you success in your further baking!

Thank you, but when I stretch and fold the dough, I don't need flour, otherwise it will be folds?

Good day to all ..... I report. per giving me to bake bread in KhP with a minimum amount of yeast, not bothering much ...
initially took ripe dough from sponge, with half the norm of yeast ..
here I wrote about him ........
the size turned out to be half the usual, BUT, despite the external unpretentiousness, delicious, without sourness, dense, and very even edible ....
the next dough rises faster ... wait, see what happens ... ...

[elena ... niсe74]

, BUT in spite of the external unpretentiousness, tasty, without sourness, dense, and very even edible ....
the next dough rises faster ... wait, see what happens ... ...

And this is already nice. I wish you success !!

elena ... niсe74
I try not to add flour when working with the dough, I grease my hands p. m. and so form it. What folds do you care about? The dough will melt, rise, folds will disperse. And then, after all, you will still need to form either a round bread or a loaf and still melt formed.

before shaping and putting on the last proofing, if you pour a lot of flour, then you get folds like in my photo in the middle on the cut, so turned upside down like a bird is drawn-tick, in my opinion it is from excess flour when folding the dough, a little confused, but I cannot formulate otherwise

eiena ... nike74
And you try not to pour a lot of flour. VouTube has videos on how to shape the dough. Probably you can find it on our forum. If I find a link, I'll send it to you. It's really hard to formulate in words.

Thank you so much, I will wait, although I watched how to shape both baguettes and round bread, but it's one thing to watch, and learn others, that's where quantity turns into quality

[elena_nice74]

elena_nice74, look at the basics of working with the test. Your eyes are still afraid, but your hands can do everything.

I look here, I am one ripe-spicy one trying on a bread maker ... maybe in the wrong topic 7 then hint to me ...

[*** Yana ***]

*** Yana ***
Well, why not on the right topic !! You bake on ripe sponge dough and your bread is good. The option in HP is very relevant, especially in the summer, when you don't want to turn on the oven again, so your developments are very interesting and certainly useful, and our forum is still Mcooker: the best recipes, so everything that adapts to HP is always of interest ...

The option in HP is very relevant, especially in summer, when the oven does not want to turn on again

that's why..
then I continue to report ...
the second dough rose faster, and as it was according to the recipe, it withstood it for 18 hours, loaded it into HP, but after the first kneading, I realized that I had to leave the dough alone ... I let it rise and I started the baking manually. though 50 minutes was not enough. underdone .... it turned out like this:
the photo shows that it is very soft, crumpled along the bottom ...
here is a cutaway:
....
BUT sour. if there are closed eyes, you might think. that rye, like Darnitsky, only the crumb is softer ... in total, it took almost a day for this bread from kneading the dough to the finished loaf ...
the third is in hp, the dough has almost risen ..... I'm waiting .... this dough came out the fastest, I really, just in case, put another spoonful of sugar into the batch. I think. that it will give a more pleasant taste, without excess acid ...

[*** Yana ***]

*** Yana ***
Or maybe you can try it on the French program Opara rose, put it on the rest of the ingredients. The temperature is being equalized, the dough is working at this time, then the kneading, the rise is the spreading and baking. True, I don't know if the dough will rise without the help of yeast during the time allowed to rise, so before baking you need to look into the bucket, if the dough has not risen enough, then turn it off and hold it on the rack, and then bake.
In the oven, I never got this sour bread, and I never tried it in KhP.
Let's see what your next bread will be.

I look here, I'm one ripe-spicy one trying on a bread maker ...

No, I have been with the company for a long time. Here is my very first bun. Now my bread is baked only on ripe dough. I bake in a bread maker and in a slow cooker. In MV it turns out more magnificent and the bun is bigger, I don't know why. Multicooker bread is also eaten faster. Yeast put 1/3 of the previous amount. I give more time for the last rise.

[barbariscka]

barbariscka my experiments are over. I report.
the third dough turned out to be the most playful, well, this is logical. the amount of yeast required to rise the dough has grown by itself ...

Or maybe you can try on the French program

I actually don't like French because of the thick crust that turns out .... but this program is still not suitable, for the reason that it takes more time for the final proofing ... and you still need to have time to "grab "a piece of ripe dough on time
I started making pizza on the mode. it is heated, two small intervals for lifting .... the program is over, I take a portion of the dough, correct the bun (in principle, it is not necessary, the dough will then straighten itself) .. and wait for the rise. it’s about an hour, but I’m looking at how he’s doing there. and at the end the baking program for 55 minutes. it turns out a light crust ... here's such an exemplary loaf turned out

here is a cutter from it:

I apologize for the quality of the photos, I only have from my mobile

[giraffe]

giraffe

In MV it turns out more magnificent and the bun is bigger, I don't know why.

right, it turns out ... ripe-sponge, like sourdough, it loves warmth and moisture ... only the sourdough will rise at the beginning of baking ...
by and large, you can, of course, bake bread in the main mode, there will be a little lower loaf ...
yeast-sourdough-they are alive and you need to look after them ... And when you want a better result, you do not have to rely on the automatic mode ...

yeast-sourdough-they are alive and you need to look after them ... And when you want a better result, you do not have to rely on the automatic mode ...

There is nothing to object here.Last year I baked with ripe dough, now I bake with sourdough. I really love bread in a dough.
I am glad that our ranks are increasing and that wonderful bread is baked on ripe dough, not only in the oven, but also in the KhP, and in the multicooker.

I love bread in a dough very much.

and I love the same on dough ... and on sourdough I baked for two years, and in the oven and in the HP and in the slow cooker, and then mine wanted another bread ... now they eat only white ...
interestingly, our cat just loves sourdough bread, the only place she couldn’t steal it from was the oven .... now the same song .... it means ripe and spicy correct bread ..

[porch]

interestingly, our cat just loves sourdough bread, the only place she couldn’t steal it from was the oven .... now the same song .... it means ripe and spicy correct bread ..

Cats won't eat bad things ...
In general, bread on ripe dough cannot be wrong.
Old books use porch... This is exactly what we call ripe dough... So the new is the well-forgotten old.

Porch, raschin, sourdough is a fermented dough that has been used since ancient times to raise bread (alas, but recently it has been completely replaced by industrial yeast).

"Yeast" was used in the old days, but they meant nothing more than leaven. And only with the advent and widespread distribution of industrial yeast, the word yeast changed its meaning ...

I've been baking this bread for 2 weeks already. Ripe dough was made on June 4th. I take 40g from him and make a dough in the evening. In the morning I knead the dough and go to work. In the evening, I transfer the dough to the Vedeoko HP, let it rise twice and bake it. The bread is delicious and no problem !!! I changed the count in the recipe. flour in a dough: 250 g of wheat and 20 g of wheat bran. The rest is prescription. Delicious!!! Well, very much !!! Thanks for the recipe !!!

Girls, what a miracle you are baking here !!! What a beauty! I will certainly bake this. The only thing I don't understand is where to get the original piece of ripe dough? (for the first kneading of such bread, then - it is clear that a piece of your dough should be left). How to make the very first ripe dough? Any yeast (but not butter, probably) can be taken, or what?

We read carefully here https://Mcooker-enn.tomathouse.com/index.php@option=com_smf&topic=69908.0

Admin, thank you very much!

[Condensed milk]

Condensed milk
I am very glad that you liked the bread without yeast! Bake to your health !!
Alekha13
Success to you !! Admin suggested where you can read how to make a piece of ripe dough initially (probably should have noted this in the first post). But, in principle, it can be left from any ripe dough when you bake bread, only without baking.

I will insert my three kopecks .... initially I kneaded the minimum amount of dough. divided into four parts. I left one as ripe and immediately put it in the dough ... put the rest in the refrigerator. so in turn and used for bread.

I made a ripe dough once and just take a tablespoon from it. It has been lying with me for three weeks now, it works wonderfully !!!

[Condensed milk, *** Yana ***.]

Condensed milk, *** Yana ***.
Perfectly!! Everyone finds the way that suits him best.
The main thing is that the bread is turned out and liked ... I took a piece from the newly mixed bread and baked it for several months. I know that u Leski he also worked for a very long time ...
And no matter how many people assure me that this is not sourdough bread, I am still inclined to believe that our ancestors once baked bread on a piece of old or ripe dough, buried it in flour in a dough, and so on from baking to baking. And they did not bake every day either.

that our ancestors once baked bread on a piece of old or ripe dough, buried it in flour in a dough, and so on from baking to baking. And they didn't bake every day either.

I asked the great-grandmother; "where did you get the yeast? she says in the dough ... but if there was no dough? She says, at the neighbors' dough ...

[*** Yana ***]

*** Yana ***

Here it is the folk experience ... Everything is in the dough ...

[barbariscka]

barbariscka
I confirm about the long preservation of the dough - just the other day I was baking with the dough, mixed for the May holidays (it's a pity that I didn't take a picture of the loaf). True, then immediately 200 gr. I kneaded the workpiece, took 25 grams for baking, but updated it every other time - adding it to the jar to the main piece (because now I rarely bake). The bread turns out to be nostril and fragrant

[barbariscka]

barbariscka, Hello!
I also try different recipes, including yours.
Could you tell me, in the first post you write that the dough after kneading turns out to be soft, sticky. I would like to clarify to what extent it is sticky and soft))
The gingerbread man holds on, does not float? I always have too moist dough according to the recipes. I'd rather be guided by its consistency. Thank you!

[Winter]

Winter
Good day!!
The gingerbread man holds on, does not float, but the dough itself is soft, not tight ... And despite the slight stickiness, I try not to add flour, it is better to stretch and fold the dough several times with short breaks, then it becomes more obedient, you can grease your hands p. m., it is easier to work with the dough. The flour is different for everyone, so you can't tell for sure, you need to adapt to your tastes. The softer the dough, the more holes it will get, but not everyone likes it and is not always good. In this case, it turns out something in between.
I don't know if I could explain, but I hope you will succeed.

Thanks, I get it! otherwise, once the dough just floated to the sides.
today baked again according to your recipe, made it a little thicker.
the dough turned out to be so pleasant, elastic, a little sticky to my hands, but not tight.
But all the same, in the end, the bread turns out to be a little under-baked, heavy, with a gray crumb.
The crumb looks like a custard ... and so I get it from time to time ...
to understand what the reason is.
Dough fits perfectly, almost three times in 12 hours.
The dough rises worse, but rises.
Maybe the dough is overstaying, because it is always very warm in our kitchen-26-28 *.
What should I do then - knead the dough, immediately mold it, for proofing, and - baking?

[Winter]

Winter
I baked this bread regularly for six months and I can say for sure that there should not be a dull crumb, as well as heavy, under-baked bread. The dough rises well, which means that the leaven is working fine for you. Maybe the dough is overridden, especially since you write that it is hot here? Try to reduce the dough time and put the dough in the refrigerator overnight, and in the morning, hold it again at room temperature, shape the bread, let it rise and bake. The temperature at which you bake is also very important ... This bread is planted in a hot oven, kept for 12-15 minutes, and then the temperature is reduced until cooked. You can also try to bake in an earthenware or cast iron pan under a hood.
Much depends on the flour ... For some time now, with sourdough, the bread is no longer the same as it used to be ... I changed the flour, everything returned to normal.
As you can see, there can be many reasons, I hope that you will figure it out and the bread will turn out as it should.
I didn't write myself, I always thought that a piece of old dough works like sourdough.
Or maybe you should grow sourdough, if you so persistently want to bake bread without yeast, there are still more possibilities with sourdough ...

In winter, if you bake bread on old dough, you need an eye and an eye here - the main dough rises VERY quickly!

Dough and BASIC dough are not the same!

Dough is a starting dough, sourdough, it can rise and fall - the best moment for dough, the dough has risen and began to fall a little - now you need to have time to put it into action, into a batch.

The main dough is prepared on dough and the rest of the flour, water and other things are added to it and kneading is done, then proofing, of which there should be two for wheat dough.

How to guess the proofing time:
1.the dough rises twice
2.the temperature of the dough during proofing increases by 2 * С

Raw bread means a lot of water or is not well baked, check the tempo. baking with a temperature probe, 96-98 * С, above 100 * С temp. it will not be in the crumb - but this is a guarantee of baked bread crumb, even if the dough is liquid in the form or on the hearth.

Later I will expose the bread recipe in the oven on the old dough, look at the pictures and commentary

[barbariscka, Admin]

barbariscka, Admin! thanks for your attention and your advice!
I do everything as you described. Yesterday I baked bread on dough that stood in the refrigerator overnight.
the dough came up twice in 12 hours, I kneaded the main dough and sent it to the hall.
The dough was very pleasant to the touch, elastic, bubbles creep in all directions.
After the refrigerator, it rose slightly, not much. I molded it, left it warm for another 1.5 hours, it fit, but not much. Then she baked it. I baked for about 55 minutes. first 15 minutes under a lid at a temperature of 220 * (this is the maximum for my small Panasonic oven), then 15 minutes. without lid at 200 *, the rest of the time at 180 *. The crust is fried, but the main background is some kind of pale grayish. and the crumb is earthy-gray, like a custard in appearance, heavy, wet. Although the bread itself rose well in the oven. The pores are rather weak in my opinion. The temperature inside does not rise above 92-93 *. I didn't have a camera, I couldn't take a picture, unfortunately.

I will try to reduce the amount of water. How do you girls think I can try to bake with one proofer? Knead the main dough and mold immediately?

[Winter]

Winter, you are baking bread from cold dough, and you are waiting for an excellent result

The dough after the refrigerator should completely warm up to 30-35 * C, start to rise fully until it doubles and then you can bake it from it. Optimal pace. proofing 30 * C, temp. dough inside 35 * C.

It takes about 3-3.5 hours for the dough to warm up in the oven and rise!

Now the best option for you is baking bread on a piece of old dough, this option is more preferable, since there is also a piece of old dough, and the main dough is kneaded in a warm place, and it is more convenient to adjust the proofing and rising of the dough.

[Winter]

Winter
Admin already wrote to you that the dough should warm up, you won't bake bread from cold dough.
You will not be enough one tea rack. The dough must necessarily go through the fermentation period, and the already formed bread must increase at least two times on the rack.
So the "quick option" will not work here.
As I understand from your posts, you have a problem with the oven. It seems to me that we need to solve it somehow. I baked this bread in the old Brest oven, without actually knowing the temperature exactly, I also baked it in a modern oven. It turned out both there and there.
And if I were you, I would try to change the flour.

[Winter]

Have Winter dough on dough, as I understood. Then she made the main dough and put it in the refrigerator - the dough rose there, this is already the 1st proofing, although cold, the dough rose and worked.

Now we take out the dough from the refrigerator, knead the cold dough and put the dough in a mold in the oven, warm up and rise twice, it will take about 3-3.5 hours, and this will be the second proofing. Rusting in the oven or in a warm place at 30 * C.

As soon as the dough rises in half, turn on the oven at 180 * C, do not take out the dough, it will rise a little more in the oven, since the yeast will begin additional work, then the growth will stop and baking will begin, bake until tender - check with a temperature probe to 96-98 * C - the bread is ready!

Here is a diagram for this baking option

[Admin]

Admin
I baked this bread and keeping the dough in the refrigerator, and without it ... It always worked.
I think that the main reason for Zimnyaya's failures is problems with the oven, with baking, she wrote that her oven is junk in other posts.
And it is clearly worth trying to bake with a different flour. They have excellent Predportovaya flour in St. Petersburg, I now bake on it and am not overjoyed. But at one time this bread turned out well for me on Sokolnicheskaya.

Yes, anything is possible, especially when you face it for the first time

[Admin]

Admin, You as always with valuable information!
thanks for the clarification on the second proofing!
After all, after the refrigerator, I kept the dough warm (in the oven with a cup of boiling water for a little over an hour),
it was really cold when I put the stove on. But I remember how the girls wrote that sometimes they mold bread and send it to the refrigerator for proofing. Then they will take it out and immediately for baking, without heating. and it's a little incomprehensible to me - after the refrigerator, you need to do a wrinkle. Is it envelope folding? Or do we immediately shape the bread to the desired shape? I did the molding right away, and the dough was molded very reluctantly, because it was cold and inelastic. What is the right way then?

barbariscka! thanks for your tips and comments! I have Belarusian flour,
and wheat premium was both Predportovaya and Makfa. one result.
This means that the option with the oven remains, since the leaven (ripe dough) works very well,
it would be a pity to part with it ... (((when I put the dough, I just admire it, such a dough is all bubbly! and when I work with the dough, then most often it becomes sprawling after the second proofing, loses its elasticity, breaks during molding. What is it?
It will not be possible to change the oven yet, because perhaps we will have a move, and in that place there is gas.
and I now have an electric stove ... I'll live like this for now. I reassure myself that people bake in any conditions and in any ovens. Here you are, for example
And it means that my hands are not so attached

Is it envelope folding? Or do we immediately form bread in the desired shape? I did the molding right away, and the dough was molded very reluctantly, because it was cold and inelastic. What is the right way then?

You have ready-made dough in your hands, shape in any way. But it is better to bake cold dough from such a dough in a mold, since molding cold dough can cause problems when baking, for example, voids in bread.

Therefore, it is better to take a round shape, keep it in the cold, then distance it in it and bake

And it means that my hands are not so attached We were no better at first ...

[Winter]

Winter
Our hands are all attached the same way, which is proven anatomically ... you don't need to lower them
and despair.
As for flour, I wrote to you, because I ran into such a problem when I had bread, which always turned out, suddenly stopped coming out of the same flour. Perhaps there was such a batch of flour, who knows.
If I were you, I would reduce the amount of water a little, slightly increase the salt (it should make up 2% of the flour weight), also reduce the spreading and bake at a lower temperature, but longer.
Hope you can handle your problems and get the bread you like. I wish you success !!

[But from such cold dough it is better to bake in a mold,]

You have ready-made dough in your hands, shape in any way. But from such cold dough it is better to bake in a mold, because molding cold dough can cause baking problems, such as voids in bread.

Therefore, it is better to take a round shape, keep it in the cold, then distance it in it and bake And it means that my hands are not so attached We were no better at first ...

ABOUT! This is a thought! Form the warm dough and then after the refrigerator for proofing!
Thank you! otherwise cold dough is difficult to form, not elastic.
but you don’t joke about your hands, I don’t believe it anyway

Winter
no need to omit them
and despair ...
... If I were you, I would reduce the amount of water a little, slightly increase the salt (it should make up 2% of the flour weight), also reduce the flavoring and bake at a lower temperature, but longer.
Hope you can handle your problems and get the bread you like. I wish you success !!

Thank you, Vasilisa!
Yes, I do not despair at all, I just want, as always, a lot of results and immediately
I will consider your advice. I have to collect all the information bit by bit ...

Thank you. girls!!!
it would be very difficult without your support))

[Admin]

Admin, good morning, if possible, I have one more question (sorry for the importunity ...)

You wrote:

Now we take out the dough from the refrigerator, knead the cold dough and put the dough in a mold in the oven, warm up and rise twice, it will take about 3-3.5 hours, and this will be the second proofing. Rusting in the oven or in a warm place at 30 * C.

As soon as the dough rises in half, turn on the oven at 180 * C, do not take out the dough, it will rise a little more in the oven, since the yeast will begin additional work, then the growth will stop and baking will begin, bake until tender - check with a temperature probe to 96-98 * C - the bread is ready!

Here is a diagram for this baking option

when we increase the temperature in the oven to 180, has baking time already started?
or when the rise of the dough stops, you need to add more temperature and then count down the baking time, according to the usual scheme, first 230-250 *, and then lowering the temperature?

[Winter]

Winter, good morning!

VERY CAREFULLY READ the text of my quote: I am writing about dough in shape! Then the scheme that I am writing about is suitable.

If baking on the bottom, then the scheme will be different, here you first need to distance the dough, for example, on a baking sheet (without a form), then heat the oven to 250 * C and put the dough on the baking sheet in the oven.
You can write in more detail if you need baking with this particular option.

Got it, thanks Admin!

I am reporting the results!
I want to say right away that the bread is practically turned out!
how I underestimated the importance of scales!

This dough after 13 o'clock, rose 2.5 times
Bread after the second proofing. Unfortunately. I had to urgently go to the patients for a massage, and the proofing was reduced from 3.5 hours to 2 hours 50 minutes, which can be seen in the final result (the roof was blown off). in the middle photo, the roof is flat, this is where the second loaf can be seen))

this is a barrel

here is a cut, there is no temper in the dough this time

I'm sorry for the quality, it's from the phone
But there was a problem with the low temperature inside the bread-92 *, it was baked for 55 minutes!
and it should be slightly drier than it turned out. Still, a little under-care.

I kneaded the dough of a double norm, into two loaves of 860 g each. First, I baked at 220 * 15 minutes, then at 180, all the remaining time was 40 minutes. I sprayed it from a sprinkler, since the oven is small and does not fit on the bottom.
The top burns and the bottom is a little, and the sides are not sufficiently baked. Next time you need to immediately lower the temperature to 200 * or cover with paper. How do you get the right temperature inside the bread? if the temperature is increased and the time, the crust dries. maybe this is because there is more water in the dough? Although, this time I reduced the amount of water. but added rast. oil. which is not prescribed by the recipe)) I ask where is the logic ...
I lubricated my hands so that the dough would not stick

But for all the shortcomings, the bread is delicious! with a very pleasant slight sourness. even my daughter walks and drags on the sly, and the youngest son ate a sandwich, which is in the photo))

[Winter]

Winter, You will forgive me for my 5 kopecks, but I will insert them: I do not like your form for baking this bread. As I did not try to agree with such a form, well, the bread warms up unevenly in it and that's it! I got tired of fighting it and stopped using it for baking bread.