Rye custard bread is real (almost forgotten taste). Baking methods and additives

[Vanya28]

Vanya28 and so in the first post in the topic it is written - use the timer. but it's easier to write when the stove appears on the screen for 45 minutes
...

You don't want to listen in any way to what they write and say to you.
The first message says 50 minutes before the end of the program Gluten free reset the timer, where five minutes is added for forgetfulness and so on, which can distract and cause further inconvenience.
Although all this does not save you from carefully reading the instructions and studying the table of the modes of the bread maker, if you have an indelible desire to learn how to bake bread in it well.
Good luck with learning!
p.s.
If you have not worked with rye dough, then look at here: 🔗.

["Everything for the baker" - Voronezh st. Leningradskaya 132a]

"In our store "Everything for the baker" - Voronezh st. Leningradskaya 132a, there is light and dark fermented dry malt. I asked the saleswoman, she says - we have a liquid ready-to-eat (what they say you will torment yourself with brewing) and showed a dark brown-black liquid in a plastic container.
that's why I ask what is better to take. because it's not difficult for me to brew it myself (as far as I understand this is more correct).
and according to Sourdough (acidifier) ​​"Agram" is it a dry (free-flowing) substance?
Davli".

A very good question, now I will answer and you have a very wonderful store in Voronezh.
The malt in rye custards is red fermented and has a dark brown color.
Pale malt can also be used, this is a classic recipe for Riga bread.
The taste of red (dark) and light rye malts is different.
What they have in common is a change for the better in the swelling of the dough and an improvement in its organoleptic properties and, as a result, an improvement in the crumb.
Can I use concentrate of malt or wort?
You can, if you are confident in the quality of the product.
A slight difficulty will arise considering the amount of water added by these products to the finished recipe. This amount of water will need to be subtracted from the total amount of water in the recipe.
Newbies unknowingly always forget about this, which makes the finished bread taste raw.
Regarding the Agram starter culture, it is a dry mixture of different types of flour, fermentation products and citric acid.
There is light Agram and dark Agram.
The main difference: dark Aram is three times more acidic than light Aram, which must be taken into account when adding it to a recipe.
My recipe uses Agram light.

the address has already passed on the forum - Voronezh st. Leningradskaya 132a

Dear Vanya! tell me how much water to subtract from the recipe if I replace dry malt with two tablespoons of malt concentrate. I just came across your Temka. And before that, with tears in her eyes, she threw away a loaf of custard rye. It turned out to be completely raw inside. I have been baking this bread with dry malt for over a year now and almost always have a very good result. And then I decided to experiment and put a cereal barley-malt concentrate instead of malt, dissolved it in 330 ml of water according to the recipe.

[afnsvju]

... how much water to subtract from the recipe if I substitute two tablespoons of dry malt with two tablespoons of malt concentrate.
...

afnsvju, solving the issue with the selection or change of the amount of water in the recipe due to the replacement of ingredients always looks like this.
Let's take your recipe with good baking results as an example and count all dry ingredients.
Next, we make up the proportion, where:
First line
[dry ingredients of your proven recipe (all in grams or all in milliliters) ] = [total amount of water of your verified recipe]
second line
[dry ingredients of the new recipe] = [the total amount of water of the new recipe to be calculated and this is taken as - X] + [all the liquid ingredients of the new recipe]

[1 dry] = [1 water]
[2 dry] = [X, that's 2 water] + [all liquid 2 ingredients]

We count the required amount of water in the new recipe:

X = [2 dry] * [1 water] / [1 dry] - [all liquid 2 ingredients]

The obtained accuracy is sufficient for baking, so as not to make a gross mistake.
Everyone who has helped this simple rule is sent a pie or plus in gratitude!

[Vanya28]

Vanya28 and what can replace Agram ... we do not have such happiness

there is only this

O-Tentik Origin is an active baking ingredient based on natural sourdough, which gives bread a rich taste and aroma with rye-wheat notes.

but he pancake is good after opening 7 days in the refrigerator and a pack of 1 kg - I'm not an industrial bakery

[Vanya28]

Vanya28 and what can replace Agram ... we do not have such happiness

Davli, happiness in your case is not difficult to find!
There are several options.
1. Growing homemade sourdough is easy enough, especially if you bake the bread regularly, but growing requires some discipline. The sourdough should be fed regularly by adding water and flour.
2. Order Agram by mail or buy it at a wholesale base for 2-3 families and its price there is six times cheaper. In a 20 kg bag, stored in a cool place for a couple of years, proven.
3. O-Tentik Origin, if this is a leaven with live yeast, then in the refrigerator it will not deteriorate in 7 days and the worst that can be expected is a decrease in its lifting force, which does not drop sharply and can always be compensated by adding 2-5 ml ... dry instant yeast.
Now I will comment additionally, wait.
Everything is correct and everything is confirmed. Take and bake. You need to store like this, - opened the pack, poured it a little, 3-4 times, in an airtight container, and the rest was closed with a clothespin. Use the poured amount, then repeat everything.
Everything will work!
With you, plus a reputation and a pie!

O-Tentik, read here: 🔗
- Contains yeast and does not require additional introduction
(yeast is naturally dry and everything will be easily stored in the refrigerator for a very long time, not 7 days. How to do this, read the comment above.)
Dosage
4% by weight of flour
Structure
Dried wheat sourdough, dried rye sourdough, yeast, antioxidant: ascorbic acid, enzymes
Packaging: 1 kg bag
Production: Belgium

There is also an analogue of O-Tentik Origin is Weizensauer- Composition: dry wheat sourdough 🔗

to find such a base where agram bags are sold

[Davli]

Davli Actually, people just use vinegar. I personally did not like the taste of Agram. The main acidifier in it is citric acid Composition: swelling wheat flour, citric acid, fried malt flour, calcium acetate, sugar color (E 150c). 🔗
Well, maybe calcium acetate 🔗

to find such a base where agram bags are sold

Already prompted you, read the message just above.
And take whatever leaven you have. The principle is the same for everyone, but the taste will be picked up a couple of times, or even it will work out right away.
If something is wrong, then write. We will help you!

Thank you very much for your advice! well, let's close up the first run with apple cider vinegar instead of agram

Thank you very much for your advice! well, let's close up the first run with apple cider vinegar instead of agram

If there is no starter culture, then one cannot get off with vinegar, and to improve the crumb, you need to at least double the amount of malt or add 50 grams. wheat flour.
How much water is required, read the message here

So! Hello! So, having gained patience, and having gathered all the will into a fist, I again proceed to bread. I did everything according to the recipe (I even put the yeast last, as it is written, it was the hardest thing, I remembered from school that water kills them), did not subtract or add anything.Agram light, Kneaded the dough, "raised", did not open, for baking for 1.5 hours. Here's what happened.

Something I am completely confused in these calculations, recalculations. Maybe someone has a ready-made recipe for rye custard with cereal concentrate instead of dry malt. And then the hand does not rise to send the results of unsuccessful experiments into the bucket.

So! Hello! So, having gained patience, and having gathered all the will into a fist, I again proceed to bread. I did everything according to the recipe (I even put the yeast last, as it is written, it was the hardest, I remembered from school that water kills them), did not subtract or add anything. Agram light, Kneaded the dough, "raised", did not open, for baking for 1.5 hours. Here's what happened.

A lot of fears and in vain.
This bread is baked quite simply, watch a small movie for a start, there are several upcoming messages in the subject with a video course for kneading rye dough. Take a look. Read it. And everything will work out.
Your dough is simply not mixed, see what an uneven crumb structure and a bread roof after kneading you need to level, and it will be even.
Otherwise, the bread is almost complete. If you have a Panasonic, then for him the loaf is very similar.
p.s.
About school and yeast.
Water gives life to yeast and more.

[difficult to write here completely]

Something I am completely confused in these calculations, recalculations. Maybe someone has
..

Since it is difficult to calculate independently, it is difficult to read the topic, but here a similar case has already been dealt with and difficult to write here completely recipe, what and how you do, then you can only be helped by sympathy.

A lot of fears and in vain.
This bread is baked quite simply, watch a small movie for a start, there are several upcoming messages in the subject with a video course for kneading rye dough. Take a look. Read it. And everything will work out.
Your dough is simply not mixed, see what an uneven crumb structure and a bread roof after kneading you need to level, and it will be even.
Otherwise, the bread is almost complete. If you have a Panasonic, then for him the loaf is very similar.
p.s.
About school and yeast.
Water gives life to yeast and more.

Thank you for participating! The fact is that this is not the first loaf, I can't make such a dough. I don’t know how to explain, if you do it according to the recipe clearly, then when kneading, when I lean the dough against the mixer, it slips, once I added water, the bread rose, but the crumb is wet, can I reduce the flour ??

Hello bakers!
This is my 2nd rye bread.
The recipe and cooking method couldn't be easier if you follow everything according to the recipe.
Today it is the most delicious bread, I would eat and eat.
About the photo: I still didn't understand how to place it, if anything, correct it. Thanks to all.

Hello bakers!
This is my 2nd rye bread.

I wanted to tell you how to link to a photo, but they've already shown everything.
Excellent bread, just some kind of temptation !!! And the cracks are wonderful, so enliven!

Thank you for participating! The fact is that this is not the first loaf, I can't get such a dough. I don’t know how to explain, if you do it according to the recipe clearly, then when kneading, when I lean the dough against the mixer, it slips, once I added water, the bread rose, but the crumb is wet, can I reduce the flour ??

A very, very interesting question.
Panasonic, as a rule, copes well with such bread, but sometimes there are surprises.
We assume that the HP is operational. The dough is very heavy and the comb shovels up a lot of dough, up to a stop, which is not very good.
Exit, change to a regular paddle. The dough will mix, but the load will be less.
Option two, HP is not working properly. Weak drive belt tension, which leads to slipping during mixing, should be clearly audible and visible. The blade stops and the motor continues to run.
Possible causes and remedies:
Belt tension is loose or poorly performed, can be corrected at home.
If grease has got on the belt, you can fix it at home by washing the belt and pulleys. Rub with rosin as a last resort after rinsing.
Defective belt. Have to buy a new one.
Perhaps still unsuccessful fastening of pulleys, but this is more from the realm of fantasy.
Write how you solve the problem.

We assume that the HP is operational. The dough is very heavy and the comb shovels up a lot of dough, up to a stop, which is not very good.
Exit, change to a regular paddle. The dough will mix, but the load will be less.

Thank you! I'll go and try, I hope it won't reach the second option.

[about]

Something I am completely confused in these calculations, recalculations. Maybe someone has a ready-made recipe for rye custard with cereal concentrate instead of dry malt. And then the hand does not rise to send the results of unsuccessful experiments into the bucket.

I take all the custard according to the recipe for x. p. Panasonic ie:
2 tsp yeast
225g. millet. flour
325g. rye. flour
2h l panifarina
1.5 tsp. salt
2 tbsp. l. rast. oil
4 tbsp. l. rye malt
80 ml. boiling water for malt
2st. l. honey
1h l coriander, 2 tbsp. l mix fitness mix.
330 ml. water
Instead of malt, I took 1 tbsp. l of concentrate and dissolved in 330 ml of water (I did not use 80 ml of water).

Moved about your successful recipe in grams and milliliters

2 tea. l. yeast 8 gr
wheat. flour 225 gr
rye. flour. ... ... 325 g
2h l panifarina 15 gr
1.5 teaspoonful. l. salt 10 gr
2 tbsp. l. rast. oil 30 ml
4 tbsp. l. rye malt 80 gr
80 ml. malt bale 80 ml
2 tablespoons Honey 50 ml
1 tea. l coriander, 5 gr
recipe water taken 330 ml

Now we write the recipe in which the replacement is performed

2 tea. l. yeast 8 gr
wheat. flour 225 gr
rye. flour. ... ... 325 g
2h l panifarina 15 gr
1.5 teaspoonful. l. salt 10 gr
2 tbsp. l. rast. oil 30 ml
2 tbsp. l. malt extract 30 ml
2 tablespoons Honey 50 ml
1 tea. l coriander, 5 gr
water recipe taken X ml

Next, we make up the proportion, where:
First line
[dry ingredients of your proven recipe (all in grams or all in milliliters) ] = [total liquid ingredients + water of verified recipe]
second line
[dry ingredients of the new recipe] = [the amount of water of the new recipe to be calculated and this is taken as - X] + [all the liquid ingredients of the new recipe]

[1 dry] = [1 water + all liquid ingredients]
[2 dry] = [X, that's 2 water] + [all liquid 2 ingredients]

We count the required amount of water in the new recipe:

X = [2 dry - 628 g] * [1 water + all liquid ingredients - 490 ml] / [1 dry - 708 g] - [all 2 liquid ingredients - 110 ml]

X = [320 ml] this is the approximate amount of water required, - since we figured out the weight and volume without weighing, we make an amendment by reducing the water by a real result, since the bread has already been baked and turned out to be damp, that is, another minus 30-40 ml of water.
The final quantity water in the recipe, taking into account the amendment: 280-290 ml.
And yet, when mixing the dough, you need to help, since you noticed not mixing in the area of ​​the scapula. This is normal for rye dough.

Total amount of water: 280-290 ml.

And show the result when it works.

dear mom.

Vania! Thank you !!!

I will definitely try with that much water. And I didn't even think about the impurity of the dough, because ordinary rye never had such a problem. But what about gray bread? There is very little rye flour there, but the problem is the same? Wow - just one component has changed - from seasoned bakers back to beginners.

I will definitely try with that much water. And I didn't even think about the impurity of the dough, because ordinary rye never had such a problem. But what about gray bread? There is very little rye flour there, but the problem is the same? Wow - just one component has changed - from seasoned bakers back to beginners.

The problem is in the concentrate, you cannot predict in advance what the manufacturer has added there and how the swelling capacity of the dough will change.
In the end, everything is fine. And pure rye is always capricious, especially when the batch of flour changes. And pure rye always requires stirring. Before that, you baked not quite rye, but rye-wheat bread, which is a little lighter.

But with experience, quickly learn to take it into account.
In the end, everything is very simple!
Success and show the result in a cut.

I will definitely report

Here is the bread I got according to the recipe from the first post:

🔗

🔗

🔗

🔗

The dough during kneading was much thicker (heavier?) Than in Vanya's video28, so I added water to help the stove. The kneading was very difficult, almost to the stop of the scapula. I helped as best I could. As a result, the dough still did not mix well enough and the bread turned out to be very dense around the edges.

35 grams of Agram, for my taste, turned out to be too much. If I still decide to bake according to this recipe, I will halve it. Honestly, I'm not satisfied with my result.

Question to Vanya28, - Maybe I made some mistakes, obvious for you and incomprehensible to me? Although, I did everything exactly according to the instructions ...

I also baked bread a couple of times according to this recipe, given on page 1, and according to the program given here, somewhere earlier for Kenwood 450, the time is 2.45. Great bread!
The only thing that confuses me is the absence of a normal kolobok when mixing. The dough seems a little thin, the spatula kneads mainly the center, and the edges remain, and are not involved in the process, if you do not help with the spatula. I tried adding a little flour - it does not help, the dough is thicker, but the center still interferes separately, if not helped.
And the taste and finished consistency is excellent!

.... As a result, the dough still didn't mix well enough and the bread turned out to be very dense around the edges.
35 grams of Agram, for my taste, turned out to be too much. If I still decide to bake according to this recipe, I will halve it. Honestly, I'm not satisfied with my result.
Question to Vanya28, - Maybe I made some mistakes, obvious for you and incomprehensible to me? Although, I did everything exactly according to the instructions ...

The selection of the amount of water when baking pure rye bread for local flour is needed, but this is in a small amount, + - 20-30 ml.
In your case, the crumb structure is already good, you can add another 10-15 ml (tablespoon) of water. The dough was steep, clearly visible on the roof of the bread. And mix well, helping at the top and in the corners.
Try changing the blade to a regular one, it loads the motor less.
When kneading, move the dough with a narrow spatula from the corners to the center and, moving it in a circle, calmly press it against the spatula and it will mix.
Do everything calmly and slowly. If it did not work out in 15 minutes, then the batch can always be repeated, this is normal.
Once the dough is well mixed, it is no longer necessary to help the kneading.
Smooth the top of the loaf with a spatula, after removing the remnants of the dough from the spatula, and you can smooth out the remaining small irregularities with wet fingers constantly moistened in water.
The amount of light agram in the recipe is a matter of personal taste and can be reduced, but you do not need to do this immediately with a change in the amount of water.
Agram, like a sourdough, also changes the swelling of the dough, and when it decreases, the amount of water will also have to be changed downward.
In the absence of experience, it is better not to do this at a time.
Only one thing. Water or agram.
The second time, if you do everything carefully, then you will succeed.
Show the result, ask if you have any questions.

... Great bread!
The only thing that confuses me is the absence of a normal kolobok when mixing.
... the scapula kneads mainly the center, but the edges remain, and are not involved in the process, if you do not help with the scapula.
... And the taste and the finished consistency are excellent!

That's right, you always need to help in the corners with a spatula. Moving the dough to the center and pressing it against the shoulder blade from above. Watch a video course of mixing in the topic.
A gingerbread man does not form in pure rye dough. This happens only if more than half of the wheat flour is present.
If the crumb is good, then this is the only thing you need to do.
Success!
And show the result, it helps others a lot.

Try changing the blade to a regular one, it loads the motor less.

And I thought - on the contrary ...

Agram, like a sourdough, also changes the swelling of the dough, and when it decreases, the amount of water will also have to be changed downward.

Thank you! A very valuable comment!

... And show the result, it helps others a lot.

Here, in fact, this is how I get it

Agram, like a sourdough, also changes the swelling of the dough, and when it decreases, the amount of water will also have to be changed downward.
In the absence of experience, it is better not to do this at a time.
Only one thing. Water or agram.
The second time, if you do everything carefully, then you will succeed.
Show the result, ask if you have any questions.

Vanya, what if we reduce the agram by half (this is my own taste), and fill the missing mass with panifarin?

Vanya, what if we reduce the agram by half (this is my own taste), and fill the missing mass with panifarin?

You can use panifarin, malt, wheat flour or rye. You can reduce the amount of water.
The main thing is to change only one thing at once, otherwise it will be difficult to determine the quality of the dough without experience.

Here, in fact, this is how I get it ...

Something missing, but overall good!
1. Add a tablespoon of water.
2. Stir well with a spatula.
It should be more elegant.

hi, i just registered)
I bake this bread in the oven, but for some reason it did not fit well, heavy ((((
why?

hi, i just registered)
I bake this bread in the oven, but for some reason it did not fit well, heavy ((((
why?

Write the recipe in full, what you did and how.
Show the cut large, let's figure it out.

[Vanya28]

Vanya28 As promised, I am reporting after receiving Agram by mail on the weekend I made 3 baked goods.

first (standard by prescription)





the second (coriander inside, cumin on top)





on gluten, the stove sometimes turns on the mixture itself, the time on the screen is -1h24min (if I am not sclerosis), therefore in the third version, after 15 minutes of kneading, I took out the spatula from the stove.





The bread is very tasty, with lard and garlic, once again THANK YOU VERY MUCH!

On Saturday, I baked bread in the oven .... no pictures .... everyone dared outright ... although I gave him a day to lie down in a towel. Tasty ... yum-yum, because we love sweeter - I added 1 liter of honey ...
The recipe will go to your favorites !!!

[Vanya28]

Vanya28 As promised, I report after receiving Agram by mail on the weekend I made 3 baked goods.
first (standard by prescription)
the second (coriander inside, cumin on top)
on gluten, the stove sometimes turns on the mixture itself, the time on the screen is -1h24min (if I am not sclerosis), therefore in the third version, after 15 minutes of kneading, I took out the spatula from the stove.
The bread is very tasty, with lard and garlic, once again THANK YOU VERY MUCH!

Three baked goods in a row, that's cool !!!
It can be seen that the bread turned out.
For the full class, it remains only to learn how to level the roof of the bread after kneading, you can smooth it with wet fingers.
You noticed the deboning absolutely exactly, but in reality it does not interfere and the blade can be left on.

On Saturday, I baked bread in the oven .... no pictures .... everyone dared outright ... although I gave him a day to lie down in a towel. Tasty ... yum-yum, because we love sweeter - I added 1 liter of honey ...
The recipe will go to your favorites !!!

It's nice that our regiment has arrived! And that we are not trying in vain!

[Vanya28]

Vanya28 if the spatula is not removed, in the middle of the bottom, the hole will be with the lid, I'll figure it out, everything comes with experience
but would you advise how to add the Borodino mixture to this recipe?

Thanks again, yesterday I repeated the use of bread with homemade bacon - delicious !!!!

[taste of Borodinsky]

...
but would you advise how to add the Borodino mixture to this recipe?
...

I only know how to get the taste of Borodino bread.
If the flour is Peeled, then add coriander, dark honey, and cumin on top. Although at the industrial Borodinsky on Tmin they save money and sprinkle it with Coriander.
If the flour is Wallpaper, then low-grade wheat flour is added to improve it, about 30%. The rest is unchanged.
You also need to select the specific acidity of the taste of Borodino bread, Agram alone does not solve this, here you also need Treacle or Apple Cider Vinegar, or fruit essence. I didn’t like the taste with Treacle and didn’t pick anything further. Although Molasses with Honey will most likely solve the problem. The idea with vinegar is somehow not nice to me.
If someone solves the problem of selecting the amount of molasses and honey in a recipe to get the full taste of Borodinsky, post it here.
For yourself,
taste of Borodinsky I get using 15 ml of ground coriander, 15 ml of ground cumin and 15 ml of caraway seeds on top, pre-soaked. Buckwheat honey 50 ml. I sprinkle at the timer 1 hour 24 minutes (program Gluten free)when Deboning ends.
I don’t take out the shovel, I’m lazy, and the gain in the finished form of bread is doubtful. If you do not talk about it, then everyone does not notice it. Verified.
The taste is excellent!

[Vanya28]

Vanya28 thanks, I will experiment. it is good now through the Internet zatar additives in different ways. peeled rye flour premium (Voronezh flour mill) and there is peeled rye stary Oskolskaya flour. here recently I found a wheat grade 1 Stara Oskolskaya - Darnitskiy sharply changed the taste in a more positive direction.

You also need to select the specific acidity of the taste of Borodino bread, Agram alone does not solve this, here you also need Treacle or Apple Cider Vinegar, or fruit essence. I didn’t like the taste with Treacle and didn’t pick anything further. Although Molasses with Honey will most likely solve the problem. The idea with vinegar is somehow not attractive to me.

Sorry, I did not understand this quote. What gives molasses (honey)? Acidity?!

I apologize, I did not understand this quote. What gives molasses (honey)? Acidity?!

This is a method of obtaining a spicy, sweet and sour taste of Borodino bread.
Agram, due to its citric acid content, gives a slightly harsh sour taste, which is desirable to soften.
Molasses has a slightly sour-sweet taste, which is supposed to be used in tandem with honey. Approximate ratio of 30 ml molasses and 30 ml honey per recipe, you also need to select the amount of water and yeast to achieve a good baking result and a dough rise time of 60 minutes.
This is, in brief, what needs to be done.

This is, in short, what needs to be done.

Yeah...
Thanks for the clarification.