J. Hamelman's liquid wheat sourdough

[Svetlenki]

Svetlenki,

Yes, slower. Today I ate a sandwich - it is, of course, not only baked by sensations, but not stale - hard, as it always happens with baking.

May I ask
Tell me, what does the leaven in bread give if you use yeast too? The healthiness of bread falls from yeast

The healthiness of bread falls from yeast

can I ask? And why?

During fermentation by the starter method, the gluten chain is broken down into smaller ones, which leads to the fact that the bread is better absorbed by the body. And yeast fermentation doesn't break the gluten chain. That's how I know. Maybe I'm wrong ...
So I'm trying to bring out the leaven again. Previous sour were

I also do not really understand the processes yet

And yeast fermentation doesn't break the gluten chain.

I don't know much about this, but following logic, since sourdough and yeast are the same kind of yeast, they should do what they are supposed to do, and it is somehow strange that some can do what others cannot given
let the older comrades correct me

May I ask
Tell me, what does the leaven in bread give if you use yeast too? The healthiness of bread falls from yeast

I disagree with this yeast function. Long gluten chains come from good flour, the right mix, the right use of ingredients. Short gluten chains are crumbly and rough breads. For example, if from the very beginning of kneading a large amount of fat is added to the dough, the fat molecules envelop the protein molecules and the chains are simply not able to adhere into long threads (the gluten window test will fail). Both yeast. Some are wild, the second of an industrial type (cultivated strains of the same wild yeast). More aggressive and more active. But they cannot have opposite properties in the test. The sourdough gives the bread a specific flavor and crumb texture. It contains a whole composition of several types of wild yeast and lactic acid cultures. All of them produce a mass of various substances that make up the flavor and aroma of sourdough bread. Common industrial yeast stabilizes the fermentation process. They make it less tight, more active, which allows the dough not to accumulate a lot of acid. She simply does not have time to accumulate. That is, you can work a little faster than just one sourdough, you have a more stable rise, and less sour bread as a result. However, it is not devoid of sourdough aroma and consistency.

[Scarecrow]

Scarecrow, Nata, standing ovation! How you succinctly and lucidly explained the contents of the books of famous bakers and, in general, the scheme of operation of leaven and yeast.

Thanks for such an extended answer. So I was wrong.
And then how to understand how much yeast should be added to the recipe if they are all leavened and there is no yeast in the composition?

[Elena_79]

Elena_79,

You can not add at all. But if you want to add - reduce the usual dose of yeast for a given amount of flour by 3-4 times. For example, in bread of the French type, usually 400-500 g of flour is 1 teaspoon of dry yeast. So, when adding starter culture, I put in about a quarter teaspoon of dry yeast.

Thank you)))

I usually use the 1: 3 or 3: 1 principle. That is, 1 hour of fermentation at room temperature - 3 days we store in the refrigerator. 3 hours of fermentation at room temperature - 1 day in the refrigerator.

3 days without feeding, and what is the mass of your sourdough in this case, as far as I understand, the smaller the mass, the faster it ripens?
And put the fallen sourdough in the refrigerator, what's the point, it just sour there, and if it peroxides, it starts to taste bitter.
I just can't figure it out in all - how to feed, in what proportions, how to store and other subtleties.

[Newbie]

Newbie,
How can it be fallen in 3 hours and even more so in 1?

I would pay more attention not to the weight of the fed sourdough, but to the ratio of the original sourdough to the amount of feeding. Because it is obvious that it will peroxide faster: initial ferment 50g, flour and water at 100g or initial 15g, water and flour at 120g. Although the final mass both there and there will be as a result of the order of 250g. But the population of the former will be much higher. This means that it will ripen faster.

I usually feed 15g (on the walls of the dishes practically, I pour water into it and rinse / evenly dissolve the residues in the required volume, only then flour) and 100g each flour / water. The working volume that I put into baking is almost always 200g. I got used to it. Here they take away 200g, it remains on the walls and feed. This ratio behaves normally in a 1: 3 or 3: 1 algorithm. Of course, it will also depend on the leaven, but you can choose the ratio.

[Scarecrow]

Scarecrow, Thank you
only I don’t understand, if you feed in such proportions, the microflora of such a leaven will be different than the original one? and with such proportions, will the leaven be considered mature or youthful?

I would also feed less often, but it sour

[Newbie]

Newbie,

Why will its composition be different? The volumes of the initial starter culture and feeding during its production are of essential importance. There is an accumulation of microorganisms per unit volume of the starter culture. Usually at this stage it is impossible to reduce the volume of the working leaven. When a certain amount of microflora has been accumulated, the growing process is over, then the volume of the sourdough being fed is no longer so critical. It is better not to take small amounts of sourdough in critical feeding, but also not to transfer kg of flour. It is pointless. In principle, 30 grams of the initial starter culture, that is, two tablespoons, is quite a working volume. In Hamelman's book on baking, there are many where one canteen or one teaspoon of sourdough starts. There is a preliminary feeding, such as dough, and then it starts up in baking. From this dough, the same one tablespoon or one teaspoon is selected for the next batch of bread. Well, or just feeding, if you don't bake right away. That is, his sourdough lives precisely in such modes and volumes of feeding.

This is the very 1 tablespoon, fed and fermented to peak, and will be a normal ripe starter. What do you mean by youthfulness?

[Nata]

Nata,

I reason like this:
when we just withdraw the leaven, there is a scourge-and-fight for the territory of survival between microorganisms that are in the air, and in flour, and everywhere.
when we feed the leaven 1: 1, then the established "army", as it were, in large quantities, will crush the alien environment under itself.
and when we feed almost 1:10, I associate it with the process of breeding the sourdough, where the mochilovo-drachilovo takes place again, because the "army" is in the minimum quantity, and there is a lot of alien environment

[Newbie]

Newbie,

Not certainly in that way. The concentration of microorganisms during elimination is incomparable with the concentration in the mature starter culture. In a mature leaven, there is a frantic concentration of MKB and DC. When feeding even a small amount of it, the settlement and development of a fresh portion of flour goes with great speed. There is no such concentration of pathogenic microflora in flour. She needs time to breed. Then she can compete with the starter. But she simply does not have this time. When fermenting, microbes are on equal terms. And those, and those are extremely few. Therefore, there is a competition. And then, when feeding mature sourdough, pathogens are in an incomparable minority. And they do not have time for anything.

[Scarecrow]

Scarecrow,
Nata, and if the leaven is sour, what's wrong?
The ascent is small, day 5.
Throw out a new output?

[Elena_79]

Elena_79,

Stood, In my opinion. It is necessary to rejuvenate. That is, feed a small amount of starter culture with a large amount of feeding for several cycles and carefully monitor it. Catch at the ripening stage, but do not let sit. It just rose up like a dome and started to sag a little - to feed right there.

[Scarecrow]

Scarecrow, it does not rise with a dome ((((only slightly increases in volume and bubbles heavily. I suspect that there was a temperature jump - our batteries are heated steeper than in winter. Maybe the yeast died?

[Elena_79]

Elena_79,

All? I doubt it. At least - after several cycles of feeding, it should accumulate again in the required concentration. In general, an unsuccessful combination of DD and ICD may have formed. Was it always like this after production, or did it rise normally, and then became like this? And yet - what humidity is it?

[Scarecrow]

Scarecrow, it did not rise at all (((((
Well, it was bubbling very actively, and there was no rise even once in 6 days.

[Scarecrow]

Scarecrow, Nata, Elena_79, and maybe take a closer look at water and flour? Well, I mean, do any of these components change?

And yet, for clarification, is it possible to withstand the temperature? This is a very important point when it comes to fermentation.

Now I just put it on the table. Temperature 26-28. Is such a run of 2 degrees critical?

Temperature 26-28. Such a run of 2 degrees is critical

I think not. Why put on the table? If there is bitterness, then "ours" have not yet won. I would continue to observe the temperature regime and feed. The bitterness must go away.

And what is the moisture content of the leaven? Nata asked you, you probably forgot to mention.

In general, we are waiting for Nata. And then I was commanded here with my advice.

100% humidity. I, in general, that nakhnagel and put a new one

[Elena_79]

Elena_79,

Are you talking about Hamelman's leaven? About the one on which the topic? And then they ask me about different people, I just can not get it.

To begin with, if I rearranged the temperature regime of 26-28 degrees on the table and now, then before that there was clearly a strong temperature rise near the battery. Hence the crazy acid build-up to the point of bitterness. It means that I did the right thing, that I threw it out and started First. It happens. Try to maintain the temperature regime well, in the region of 25-27. It may well be that if it is very heated / hot, then the floor is also suitable for this. It's cooler there. Directly with a thermometer to see where How many degrees.

[Scarecrow]

Scarecrow, Hello!
Today is almost the evening of the 3rd day. There is no rise, inside like this. It tastes sour. The first day smelled disgusting and pearl over the edge. Now it smells sour, not yogurt, but sour. Why doesn't she want to get up? The temperature is stable at 26-27 degrees.

[Elena_79]

Elena_79,

So it's too early. The dishes are also very wide, and liquid sourdough needs to cling to something to raise it. The leaven is raised by gases, and if they leave the dough without hindrance, they will not raise it. But you wait a couple more days. Early.

The sourdough took less than 10 hours to get acidic and bitter again. Apparently because of the wide dishes

[Elena_79]

Elena_79,

Take something narrower like a can of flour, add a little more when feeding (the thinner the leaven, the faster it accumulates acid), the temperature is not higher than 25 degrees.

In general, saving a strongly acidified leaven, especially one that is very bitter, is extremely difficult. It's probably easier to start over. At the manufacturing stage, this simply should not be. This happens when the already mature leaven is strongly rearranged.

Already moved to the bank. She fed me ahead of schedule. I'll see until the evening. Why does it acidify so quickly? This is the third plant. Have you ever had this? 4 times to feed her? But how then will she get stronger and grow?

[Elena_79]

Elena_79,

It was. It peroxides - because the temperature regime is appropriate, favorable and the corresponding colony of microorganisms is hooked. Sourdough is generally pretty sour thing. Like young yogurt (not without reason in the old days it was always called sour dough). Pleasant and aromaticly sour.There should be no bitterness. If she were already mature, we would be engaged in anti-aging. That is, feeding small volumes of sourdough with a large amount of flour and water. On demand. In order not to stop. But now it's just the manufacturing stage. It is impossible to deviate from the volumes of the original starter culture and feeding. Otherwise, the required number of microorganisms will not accumulate.

So put a new one? And withstand the temperature of 25? please advise



And is it possible to feed more often during the hatching phase? And how do you know when it's time to feed?

[Elena_79]

Elena_79,

I would start a new one. Temperature 25-26. When hatching, try to observe the time. Not on demand. If the recommended temperature is observed, the time intervals specified by the author must be maintained.

Sourdough is a living thing, do not get upset in any way. There are failures - you will not catch them. And mine. Not scary. Wash the dishes, scald with boiling water, wash your hands and the table, ventilate the kitchen and, with a light heart, go back to battle)).

Is it true that wheat leaven does not raise rye and c / z flour well (30-40% of the total weight)? my bread is already very low, but on the prom. tall yeast, maybe the reason is this?

[Newbie]

Newbie,

Not true. It all depends on the strength of the leaven and the peculiarity of rye dough must be taken into account. It doesn't rise like wheat. Although Hamelman writes that initially rye sourdough works better in rye dough than originally wheat. But a professional won't notice much.

It all depends on the strength of the leaven and the peculiarity of rye dough must be taken into account. It doesn't rise like wheat.

Well, I have wheat-rye (c / z), they should not be short, but they are short.
and if when baking bread on the prom. yeast still rises by 5 cm, then on sourdough at high T - a couple of cm up a maximum, that is, at the time of baking, the yeast is already practically unviable?

[Newbie]

Newbie,

The leaven is initially bad. Low lift. An unfortunate combination of microorganisms has formed. Remodel.

Newbie,

The leaven is initially bad. Low lift. An unfortunate combination of microorganisms has formed. Remodel.

I can understand this, but I do not understand at all, how does she raise the dough high enough? Three times exactly

[Newbie]

Newbie,

Aaaa, tady oh. Means too early to start up. Sourdough bread and 8. and 12 o'clock can rise.

Aaaa, tady oh. Means too early to start up. Sourdough bread and 8. and 12 o'clock can rise.

I am already completely lost, during this time my bread will simply settle, 4-5 hours maximum.
how I jinxed it - my leaven completely weakened, during the night all bubbled up, but practically did not rise. As I understand it, this MK is loosened up, but the yeast is kapets?

[Newbie]

Newbie,

Let's go from the other side. What kind of water do you use for baking and feeding?

Let's go from the other side. What kind of water do you use for baking and feeding?

from the tap, not chlorinated

and I noticed (I used to think, it just seems), if I feed a large amount of flour, some kind of flour does not become that, I can't explain worse than worse

[Newbie]

Newbie,

Unchlorinated from the tap - what is it? Filter?

[Newbie]

Newbie,

Unchlorinated from the tap - what is it? Filter?

no, not a filter, just our water is not chlorinated

[Newbie]

Newbie,

Are you sure? It seems to me that everything is chlorinated now.

I would try to change the water and flour. Take turns. For experiment. You can buy water. Mineral, but without gas. Just to understand if there will be changes or not.

You can buy water. Mineral, but without gas.

On the label of the bottles, information is written something like "Dry residue", which is measured in mg / l. So I would choose the water with the lowest value possible.

[Svetlenki]

Svetlenki,

I wouldn't. Strongly softened water is just as empty and non-nutritious for microbes as chlorinated water. Something in between.They need mineral compounds.



Newbie,

I somehow had a very long epic with not getting sourdough, until it dawned on me that our osmosis filter was with a silver cartridge.)))

Newbie,

I somehow had a very long epic with not getting sourdough, until it dawned on me that our osmosis filter was with a silver cartridge.)))

No, no, it's definitely not about the water. After all, it was a killer (pearl, by leaps and bounds), until she began to put it in the refrigerator. And now I remembered that I also changed the flour at that time. Flour, of course, can influence, but it makes no sense to buy exactly the one on which it was brought out, because flour differs sharply from batch to batch, and besides, it's all crap, what is there. I have a lot of premium flour, I don’t bake it, so I have to open a packet? I'm already changing the third, I don't like the torment.