Kenwood BM 450 Bread "Ukrainian"

Kenwood BM 450 Bread "Ukrainian"

Category: Yeast bread

Ingredients
Rye flour	400 g
Wheat flour	200 g
Wheat gluten *	5 tbsp. l.
Red malt	1 tbsp. l.
Salt	2.5 tsp
Dry yeast	2.5 tsp
Curd whey (or water)	370 ml + 100 ml boiling water for malt
Caraway	1 tsp

Cooking method

• Recipe description revised following discussion on gluten.
• Brew 100 ml malt. boiling water, and while it is infused, measure the rest and load the HP. In general, you can brew in a smaller amount, just measuring 100 ml is more convenient than, for example, 40 ml. The main thing is that all the liquid is in a volume of 470 ml.
• In Kenwood 450 I bake according to my program (already assigned) - Vanya28 is the author of the program in fact).
• Its timing is as follows: 15 minutes kneading, 1 hour rise, 1 hour 30 minutes baking. I am sure that you can bake in other modes, try it)
• Pour the rest of the liquid into a cup of malt, cool it in this way, and add to the batch. I add cumin immediately. We turn on and bake.
• * On the discussion of the amount of gluten: it is here exclusively for consistency and a bouncy kolobok. But gluten can be added in less or not added at all. In this case, you need to slightly reduce the amount of liquid. If you do not add at all, then the total volume of liquid is 450 ml (not 470). And it is better, of course, if it is not just water, but delicious water, for example, whey)
• On the top photo there is a bread with 5 tablespoons of gluten, a bun, when kneaded, looks like wheat.
• If you do not add gluten at all, then the bun will no longer look like a dense wheat, but a rye one, slightly smeared below, as in the photo:
• 
• And bread without adding gluten turns out like this:
• 
• Thus, the amount of gluten here is a personal matter for the baker, who loves how much.
• Who loves sourness, you can add 1 tbsp. l. dry grain sourdough, or 2 tbsp. l. apple cider (fruit) vinegar. It is useful, unlike the harmful table vinegar, because it consists of other acids.
• Who loves sweet and sour, you can also add honey 1-2 tbsp. l., molasses or just sugar.
• Delicious!

The dish is designed for

1 kg

Time for preparing:

2 h 45 min

Cooking program:

suitable

National cuisine

Ukrainian

Note

I am in constant search of a recipe that would allow me to bake my favorite "Ukrainian" bread in KhP, which I remember from stagnant times. Now the bread that is sold with this name is of poor quality and cannot be compared with what it used to be.
But the technical process in accordance with GOST provides for an inconvenient technology for the owners of HP, besides, this bread is traditionally hearth. Nevertheless, I still want to achieve its taste.
And then I came across a recipe adapted for HP from the author lelik from Kiev somewhere on another resource. True, she also attributed the authorship to some "House of Bread". Perhaps it is present here, but I did not see this recipe here. And it is worth showing it to the people, because it turns out excellent bread and is really very close to the desired taste.
It should be especially noted (especially for pedantic connoisseurs of "true recipes" :) that this recipe has nothing to do with the GOST technology of Ukrainian bread, and cannot have anything. Because that industrial technical process in an automatic household HP is impossible to reproduce in principle.
It is precisely about achieving the desired taste and consistency by means of CP.
I slightly tweaked the recipe for myself, and I post it in this form. My homemade rye bread liked this version more than all the previous samples. Good luck!)

Doesn't that amount of gluten bother you? 5 tablespoons?

It could embarrass me if I didn’t taste it at first, hesitating
And why be embarrassed, if you do not want it to be normally raised, with a convex roof, put less, or abstain altogether. Gluten is used exclusively to bring the structure of rye bread closer to the structure of wheat bread. While maintaining the rye flavor. I baked other recipes without gluten, it's also good, but ... I tried to add 2 tbsp per kilogram loaf. l. gluten free (not in this, in another recipe). Her actions with such a number - did not note. Thus, I am inclined to think that this amount is probably optimal for 1 kg of bread.
Besides, I think that gluten is different. I have it called "Wheat Gluten", packaged in 500 g bags like flour. There may be some other, for example "panifarin" -5 tbsp. l. there will be a lot. Or - it will not turn out) I have not tried this recipe without her, or with less. Try it - tell the result. Experiments are the way to progress!)

P.S. By the way, the bun turns out to be quite dense and "independent", that is, it does not require outside help, as is often the case with bread, if it contains more than 50% rye flour.
This bun looks like a wheat bun. Perhaps it is because of the presence of a sufficient amount of gluten.
You got me interested in this question, besides, I asked myself it myself)) I'll try with 4 spoons, so be it. And if the result does not turn away, then with 3. Etc. ))

Indeed, something is too much gluten ...

Instead of gluten, I add 2 tablespoons of starch to 400 grams of flour. To improve porosity.

Business as a result, and he is great with so many. But - I'll try to reduce it and see what happens.
In the meantime, I am quoting one of the wise primary sources:
"... The amount of wheat gluten used in the bakery industry depends on the wet (intrinsic) gluten content of the working flour, it is usually 1-2% by weight of the product.
... However, when making breads containing rye, the amount of gluten can be more than 4%; when preparing recipes, for example, diet bread, the dose of gluten can be from 3 to 6%; when baking buns made of wholemeal flour, as well as breads with a high fiber content, gluten can be added from 2 to 5%, and in special cases up to 10% ... "
Thus, 5 tbsp. l. per kilogram of product no longer looks too exotic, and corresponds to this description ...

Here's another quote:
"... Dry gluten is a natural ingredient, so there is no limit to its amount when used as a supplement ..."
Thus, one should not be afraid of "overdoing", only economic expediency remains)

Instead of gluten, I add 2 tablespoons of starch to 400 grams of flour. To improve porosity.

Here is a quote from another source:
"Gluten has two main functions: it is a plasticizer, that is, it plays the role of a kind of lubricant that gives the mass of starch grains fluidity, and
is a binder that connects starch grains into a single dough mass ... "
Thus, starch and gluten seem to perform different tasks, and can hardly be considered interchangeable.

Here's what else I found on the topic:
The required dosage of SPK (Dry Wheat Gluten) is determined by the formula:
Gl = (K-Ko) / 2.646; %
Where,
Gl - dosage of SPK,%;
K - predicted amount of gluten,%;
Ko - the initial amount of gluten in flour,%;
2.646 is an empirical coefficient characterizing the content of the main substance in the SPC.

The gluten content of rye flour is rarely more than 8%.
And in the best wheat flour, its amount reaches 52%.

Thus, if we raise the properties of rye flour to the best wheat flour in terms of its ability to form an airy structure, we get the following:
K = 52.
Ko = 8
Gl = (52-8) / 2.646 = 16.6%.

Rye flour here is 400 grams, therefore, 400 x 0.166 = 66.4 grams of gluten must be added.

I once conducted an experiment - thumped 6 tbsp. l.on rye bread (400g), yes, it rose, yes fluffy - but the taste of gluten was present and weird, I didn’t like it (reminded me to taste "American bread for sandwiches, which they sell in stores, which does not spoil for 2 months in plastic packaging) That is why I am interested in how with taste.

Well, good taste, I started with it) Perhaps it strongly depends on the properties of the gluten itself. And not even possible, but for sure. We all know that flour is different from flour, just like any other product.
I'm in sl. just throw 4 or even 3 spoons and compare. If not worse, then of course why waste a purchased ingredient ...

Yeah ... I have no idea what this gluten is. I didn't even try to delve into your formula, because I know that the manufacturer of panifarin (the same wheat gluten) recommends using as much as possible (that is, for rye bread) no more than 2%, that is, a few more tablespoon.

... because I know that the manufacturer of panifarin (the same wheat gluten) ...

Then find out at the same time that panifarin is not only gluten. In addition to it, it includes ascorbic acid and amylolytic enzymes. And these impurities have their own flavor, different from that of pure gluten)

More on the topic from the description of industrial technologies:
"... Modern bakers add 4-6% gluten only to improve the structure of the bread, and when developing new, expensive types of bread products, such as cookies, muffins, waffles and biscuits - from 20% to 40% gluten. and confectionery - up to 50% gluten by weight of flour ... "

In rye flour it is only 8%. These very "modern bakers" from the above quote would have added 400 grams in an industrial environment. 8% flour to 200 grams of gluten. This is not 5 spoons, and not even 10)
I don’t understand why such a rush - who here makes whom pour exactly as much and no less?
Baking is a creative business, and it is useful to adapt all the recipes to your taste. Is it different for you? Great, you can safely do without this component.
Well, it won't fit as well, but it won't be necessary to add "so much" of this cursed gluten

Please tell me where in Kiev you can buy gluten.

Irina1607, look at the websites of the Empire of Bread and Bulkin Dom (available on Borschagovka, metro Zhytomyrska, and on the left bank, Pozdnyaki, etc.)

I buy at the "empire of bread" outlet in Obolon, they have addresses on their website

What kind of rye flour?
What is wheat flour?

Then find out at the same time that panifarin is not only gluten.

Then let's call it gluten. This is pure gluten. Too much of it is not good. It is not for nothing that they are now trying to use it as little as possible. Many stores now have entire sections of gluten-free products. Too many people now suffer from gluten intolerance (celiac disease). Perhaps precisely because a lot of it has always been added to factory baked goods. That is why many of us who fast here bake our own homemade bread.

What kind of rye flour?
What is wheat flour?

Luhansk rye "goodness", wheat Kievmlyn)

Luhansk rye "goodness", wheat Kievmlyn)

Then in the recipe you need to indicate that peeled rye.
Again .... what kind of wheat? V / s or 1 s or 2nd grade.

Too much of it is not good. It is not for nothing that now they are trying to use it as little as possible ... Too many people now suffer from intolerance to this very gluten (celiac disease) ...

You are right, and I am not arguing. Much is not good. But if wheat flour contains 50% of the flour mass, it means that this amount is not "a lot". Namely, for example, in wheat bread weighing 1 kg of flour 600 grams, means about 300 grams of gluten (!!!).
Do you still want to fight with five spoons?)
I haven't tried this recipe without her, but I'm sure you can. Try it!)
Possible disadvantages - you will have to help shape the bun. And now - it is being formed by itself, i.e.you can bake this bread in automatic mode. This does not often happen with bread, where more than 50% rye flour. Well, and perhaps it will be more dense, less airy. There is a fee for everything, and you just need to be ready to pay it, then everything is in order

Then in the recipe you need to indicate that peeled rye.
Again .... what kind of wheat? V / s or 1 s or 2nd grade.

This recipe, as I indicated in it, I "wrote off" as it is, it did not indicate what kind of flour and gluten to take. I took what were at hand.
There was peeled rye at hand, and premium wheat. I always treat recipes not strictly, as a rough guide to how many things (approximately!) To take. I urge everyone to do the same.
Take what you have, try it, share the result, this is the process of constructive discussion. In my plans, for example, a test with a reduced number of cursed spoons, which aroused such intense interest

[In the recipe Ukrainian bread - peeled rye flour and wheat flour of the 2nd grade.]

There was peeled rye at hand, and premium wheat.

In the recipe Ukrainian bread - peeled rye flour and wheat flour of the 2nd grade.
If the recipe contains wheat flour, then Ukrainian bread cannot be called in any way.

In my plans, for example, a test with a reduced number of cursed spoons, which aroused such intense interest

Most likely also the renaming of the recipe name.

There are a lot of interesting rye recipes on the forum, and without additives. For example, "rye without anything from Gasha"
https://Mcooker-enn.tomathouse.com/in...ion=com_smf&topic=14592.0
custard rye from Vanya ...
we do not scold your option at all, it is just possible to get delicious homemade bread without additives.

I didn’t name the bread, I also know how Ukrainian is baked according to GOST. It's just an attempt to get that flavor with the adapted technologies in HP. This, in fact, interested me in the recipe. By the way, the recipe is not in the gluten-free baking section.

And here is the same "doctor evil":

There are a lot of interesting rye recipes on the forum, and without additives. For example, "rye without anything from Gasha"
https://Mcooker-enn.tomathouse.com/in...ion=com_smf&topic=14592.0
custard rye from Vanya ...
we do not scold your option at all, it is just possible to get delicious homemade bread without additives.

Lots of great recipes! Vanin I bake too - super-duper! And not only him ...
But as a rule, they need to be nursed (rye), and this one is suitable for automatic mode, and this is what attracts me, with excellent taste. Taking into account the fact that I tolerate gluten and the quantity does not bother me. Who is with me - try. Who is not going to bake it - hmm .... meeeeeeh .... we will listen with great attention to this expert opinion

I didn’t name the bread, I also know how Ukrainian is baked according to GOST. It's just an attempt to get that flavor with the adapted technologies in HP. This, in fact, interested me in the recipe.

Then, no matter how you (a citizen of Kiev) know the real taste of "Ukrainian" bread. And your bread (made from sun flour) is very different in taste from the real "Ukrainian", where flour is in the second grade recipe.

We have recipes on the forum, the bread according to which exactly resembles "Ukrainian" to taste. But they have, excuse me, peeled rye flour and 2nd grade wheat flour.

Your recipe may be matched by some name "Darnitskiy" or some other name, but not "Ukrainian".

But if wheat flour contains 50% of the flour mass, it means that this amount is not "a lot". Namely, for example, in wheat bread weighing 1 kg of flour 600 grams, means about 300 grams of gluten (!!!).
Do you still want to fight with five spoons?)

And if there is so much gluten in wheat flour, as you write here, then why add more? To get the so-called. "loading dose" for the body? Try regular wheat flour in this recipe, simply substituting bread flour. Then you don't need to add gluten either. Personally, I only add gluten (no more than 1 tablespoon) when baking when I bake with low flour, that is, with flour that is "all purpose".When I buy specialty bread flour, which is strong in itself, I don't add gluten AT ALL.

Personally, I only add gluten (no more than 1 tablespoon) when baking when I bake with low flour, that is, with flour that is "all purpose". When I buy specialized bread flour, which is strong in itself, I don't add gluten AT ALL.

I add gluten 1 tbsp. l if the recipe uses rye and wheat flour of 2 varieties. If there is wheat sun, not even bakery, then I do not add it at all.

And that's true. In any case, gluten in large quantities is harmful, despite the fact that it is a natural product ...
In addition, not every natural product should be eaten.

Friends, I am preparing for you, the opponents of gluten, a new, much more terrible target! Wheat bread, in which gluten is 300 grams per loaf, because there is already 600 grams of flour!) Look in the appropriate section

... And your bread (from all-flour flour) is very different in taste from the real "Ukrainian", where flour is in the second grade recipe. ...

Did you really bake it and try it?))

... We have recipes on the forum, the bread for which exactly resembles the taste of "Ukrainian". But they have, excuse me, peeled rye flour and 2nd grade wheat flour.
...

I would be grateful for a specific link, what I tried to bake, I did not find the one I needed

... Your recipe may be matched by some kind of "Darnitskiy" or some other name, but not "Ukrainian" ...

Maybe "the taste of Ukrainian" is more suitable, but you still will not agree, so I will not change) And Darnitskiy is not quite like this one, he rather reminds Ariaut, my houses do not like this, but this one is the opposite.

[batono]

And Darnitsky is not quite like this one, he rather resembles Ariaut, my houses do not like this, but this one is on the contrary.

For Gd's sake batono, if you like to poison and spoil the health of your loved ones with excess gluten - this is your own business. Why advertise it like that?
We're not against gluten here. It's just that they have long come to the conclusion that it should be used in reasonable amounts.

[reasonable amounts]

... it should be used in reasonable amounts.

I keep trying to convey to the minds the idea that in this recipe the amount of gluten is several times less (!) Than in any loaf of ordinary wheat white bread)
But perhaps I am deprived of the gift of presentation, because I never succeeded.
The most frequent argument that I hear here figuratively can be stated as follows: "I did not delve into your formulas, but I think that ..."
Sometimes it is useful to delve into it in order to think more reasonably)
Once again, in plain text for those who find it difficult to delve into the formulas:
It contains gluten = 100 grams of 100 grams of PSh flour + 5 tbsp. l (approximately 65-75 gr) + 8% of 400 grams, i.e. 32 g.Total = 207 grams.
So, more-pre-again: 207 grams versus 300 grams, which is always! are present in any! a loaf of premium wheat flour of equal weight.
And the summary - this bread is intended for those people who are not afraid to eat plain white bread. Eat white, so you can safely eat this one, it contains gluten-LESS! Despite a lot of gossip in this topic) Bon appetit!

Once again, in plain text for those who find it difficult to delve into the formulas:

I assure you, it is very easy with my two higher ones! I didn’t delve into it, not because it was difficult, but because there was absolutely no need, since I’m never going to repeat your experience. I really like the bread, which I, with my one maximum tablespoon, like all of us here, have been baking for at least five years, while not standing with a spatula over a kolobok, as you predict to someone, and always getting an excellent result.

I assure you, it is very easy with my two higher ones! She did not delve into it, not because it was difficult, but because there was absolutely no need

Stopudovo!

[raw]

First, premium wheat flour contains up to 30% gluten, which is where the figure of 50% comes from.

Secondly, it is raw gluten, and you add dry.

[batono]

batono,
Do you yourself and your loved ones like your bread? Apparently, yes! Congratulations!
When I bought HP and got carried away with this interesting activity - baking - I also did everything according to the instructions - everywhere I added agram, panifarin and other byaka.
Over time, all these additives, not having time to use, threw away; now I can easily do without them; as well as without dry yeast.
Everything comes with time ...

You are right, the main thing is to like the result.
And all such disputes ... it's as if we suddenly noticed that in some recipe, say, margarine or butter is as much as 250 grams. Horrible! After all, the whole world refuses to eat fat in such quantities. And cholesterol! And transmodified fats ... well, etc., etc.)
Nevertheless, there are people among us who will put so much butter in a bun and taste it with great pleasure. Ignoring the opinions of those who are terrified

So, friends, opponents of gluten, the recipe has been tested with no added gluten at all. Changes have been made to the description of the recipe on page 1, photos are attached. Thus, I consider breaking copies on this issue to be exhausted.
Delicious!

Thanks for the recipe, I will definitely try. I have nothing against gluten, I would love to add it, but we have no trace of this product, as well as red malt. Therefore, I will adapt your recipe to what we have. Instead of malt, I add dry sifted kvass. And I will name your bread for myself "A la Ukrainian"

[batono]

Dear batono ! I am grateful to you! Yesterday I baked bread according to your recipe, however, with slight deviations due to the lack of some components
- that's what happened. And in the context:
... The first time it turned out on rye bread such a convex roof, and even with such a large content of rye flour. The taste is excellent. I brought your Ukrainian and Egg Wheat to work today. Wheat hasn't even been cut yet, and half of yours is gone.
Baked on whey and live yeast, slightly reducing the bookmark, because in my ROLSEN the maximum is 900 gr. I don't have the "Rye" mode, I baked on the "ambulance" - 2 hours 10 minutes, slightly increasing the proofing with pauses. Now I'll try it on water with apple cider vinegar. And I also made such an addition: I poured in a little vegetable oil, because scuffs appeared on the ribs in the bucket at the bottom, and there the dough sticks a little when baking

Dear batono! As they say here in Ukraine: "Shiro dyakuyu!" I baked bread according to your recipe yesterday. I did everything exactly, including 5 tablespoons of gluten (I also live in Kiev, so my gluten is probably the same as yours - 0.5 kg in a bag like flour). The only digression - I put one spoonful of honey, well, I love it sweeter, I'm sinful. My husband tried it and said - yes, this is real Ukrainian, like in childhood. Thank you very much for the recipe!

And I am also grateful. The most important rye bread taster could not resist
, just turned away - and here you are.
Having received it on the ears, I did not calm down, again pulls my paw ... My Chucha is very capricious in food, she does not climb so much for meat or sausage. So the bread got the highest rating.
For the quality of the photo, I apologize, because there is no camera down, but my mobile phone was in a hurry to catch the moment

Thanks for the delicious bread recipe
This is my first rye bread, everything worked out, I baked in Ski on the "Rye" mode, I slightly reduced the proportions (I have a maximum loaf of 700 grams), everything turned out great, I am grateful to you

I haven't visited the site for a long time, I see that many people like the recipe, which I am very happy about. Bon Appetit!
P.S. And the cat, the connoisseur, impressed me especially. Kote who understands a lot about food!

Tell me, what if Caraway, malt is removed from the recipe?
It's just that they are not in the store version.

[Tell me, what if Caraway, malt is removed from the recipe?]

Tell me, what if Caraway, malt is removed from the recipe?
It's just that they are not in the store version.

You will get a different recipe and a different taste!

What are we arguing about and what are we looking for the truth?

On the forum we bake OUR HOMEMADE BREAD, and put in the dough those ingredients that we can afford, including TO OUR TASTE!

We are not a bakery, so that we are controlled by various authorities for compliance with GOST

Bake different breads for health

... it should be specially noted (especially for pedantic connoisseurs of "true recipes" that this recipe has nothing to do with the GOST technology of Ukrainian bread, and cannot have anything.
Because that industrial technical process in an automatic household HP is impossible to reproduce in principle.
It is precisely about achieving the desired taste and consistency by means of CP.
I slightly tweaked the recipe for myself, and in this form I post it ...

Dear friends!
I quote myself in order to remind the first lines of this topic. In which it is written ... everything that is written, you can’t say more precisely So we will not break spears in vain because of quoting GOSTs, to which this recipe, as I indicated earlier, has nothing to do with it. Bon Appetit!