Starter cultures - in questions and answers

klazy, I was scared by the sour taste and smell in the apartment. I thought, what if I had not only beneficial bacteria there?
Exactly half of it remained. After lying in the refrigerator in a bag, the sour taste almost disappeared. Now I can't wait to eat it to try it again. This time I will put less leaven and take less time to rise.
There is also a leaven to which soda is added, it also needs to be tested
In the morning I looked at my leavens, they all increased the same. Everyone has a pleasant smell, finally I heard the smell of apples, about which they wrote soda really smells weaker but also pleasant, here.

The bread has never been sour yet, maybe you put a lot of leaven ??

How much do you put in?

[1 kg of flour requires 100-200 g of sourdough.]

Here is some interesting information I found, this is exactly what I was looking for. I do not know, it may be useful to someone.

Dough fermentation

Dough fermentation is a complex biochemical process, as a result of which the dough becomes fluffy and soft.

There are many ways to make the dough ferment. Usually, when going, for example, to steam pampushki, the Chinese housewife does this: she takes the leaven (old dough) left over from the last time, dilutes it with water (cold in summer, warm in winter), mixes it with flour. Then he covers the dough with a blanket and puts it in a warm place to ferment. The most suitable air temperature is 20-28 ° C. 1 kg of flour requires 100-200 g of sourdough. If you lightly press your hand on the fermented dough, you can hear a characteristic sound. This dough has a slightly sour smell. For fermentation, you can use both dry yeast (50 g per 1 kg of flour) and compressed "sticks" of yeast (10 g per 1 kg of flour).

In addition, rice vodka is used for fermentation in China. Pampushki made from such dough have a pleasant sweetish taste. For. you can also use chemical agents such as soda, alum, etc. However, chemical leaven decomposes vitamin B contained in the dough. After the dough rises, soda dissolved in water should be poured into it - to eliminate the sour taste and smell and make the dough even softer. Put the dough in a slide on a board, make a hole in the center of the slide and pour water and soda into it, mix thoroughly so that the soda quickly and evenly dissolves in the dough. Usually, 25 g of soda is taken for 1 kg of dough. The dough becomes white and soft. If there is little soda, the donuts will be sour, if there is a lot, they will acquire a yellow color and a soda taste. The amount of soda also depends on the weather (air temperature). In the heat, soda dissolves faster and, therefore, requires a little more than in cold weather. If the dough came up a long time ago - there is more soda, if, on the contrary, fresh and quickly came up - less.

You can check the correct amount of soda as follows:
1 By the smell of the dough. When there is not enough soda, the smell will be sour; too much - a pungent smell of baking soda. Normal dough only has a dough smell.
2 Roll the dough into a ball and bake. If there is little soda, then the ball inside will be gray in color and with a sour smell, if there is a lot of soda, the color of the baking is yellow. A normal dough ball is white inside.
3 Cut off some dough and mash. With a lack of soda, the dough is too soft, with an excess, it is tough. Normal dough should be moderately firm and not stick to your hands.

If you find that there is an excess of soda, you need to add a little sourdough or vinegar. Or leave the dough to stand for a while and only then butcher. If everything is in order with the soda, you should immediately start rolling the dough, otherwise the soda will "fly away".

And one more case.The pumpkins have already been made and placed in a colander for cooking, and suddenly it turns out that they turn yellow, that is, too much soda: you can put a wide glass of vinegar in a colander and cover everything with a lid. After 7-8 minutes after boiling, the yellow color will disappear, and the donuts will become white.
Matching dough:

Many recipes use a suitable dough as a leaven. It can also be prepared as follows: mix a glass of flour with a glass of warm water, leave for 5-6 hours; then add a glass of any beer and 1 tbsp. a spoonful of granulated sugar, stir thoroughly and put in a warm place for another 1 hour. This sourdough is used like ordinary yeast, it can be stored for a long time in the refrigerator or cellar, and the dough, kneaded with it, turns out to be very fluffy.

Dough fermentation is a complex biochemical process, as a result of which the dough becomes fluffy and soft.

There are many ways to make the dough ferment. Usually, when going, for example, to steam pampushki, the Chinese housewife does this: she takes the leaven (old dough) left over from the last time, dilutes it with water (cold in summer, warm in winter), mixes it with flour. Then he covers the dough with a blanket and puts it in a warm place to ferment. The most suitable air temperature is 20-28 ° C. 1 kg of flour requires 100-200 g of sourdough. If you lightly press your hand on the fermented dough, you can hear a characteristic sound. This dough has a slightly sour smell. For fermentation, you can use both dry yeast (50 g per 1 kg of flour) and compressed "sticks" of yeast (10 g per 1 kg of flour).

In addition, rice vodka is used for fermentation in China. Pampushki made from such dough have a pleasant sweetish taste. For. you can also use chemical agents such as soda, alum, etc. However, chemical leaven decomposes vitamin B contained in the dough. After the dough rises, soda dissolved in water should be poured into it - to eliminate the sour taste and smell and make the dough even softer. Put the dough in a slide on a board, make a hole in the center of the slide and pour water and soda into it, mix thoroughly so that the soda quickly and evenly dissolves in the dough. Usually, 25 g of soda is taken for 1 kg of dough. The dough becomes white and soft. If there is little soda, the donuts will be sour, if there is a lot, they will acquire a yellow color and a soda taste. The amount of soda also depends on the weather (air temperature). In the heat, soda dissolves faster and, therefore, requires a little more than in cold weather. If the dough came up a long time ago - there is more soda, if, on the contrary, fresh and quickly came up - less.

You can check the correct amount of soda as follows:
1 By the smell of the dough. When there is not enough soda, the smell will be sour; too much - a pungent smell of baking soda. Normal dough only has a dough smell.
2 Roll the dough into a ball and bake. If there is little soda, then the ball inside will be gray in color and with a sour smell, if there is a lot of soda, the color of the baking is yellow. A normal dough ball is white inside.
3 Cut off some dough and mash. With a lack of soda, the dough is too soft, with an excess, it is tough. Normal dough should be moderately firm and not stick to your hands.

If you find that there is an excess of soda, you need to add a little sourdough or vinegar. Or leave the dough to stand for a while and only then butcher. If everything is in order with the soda, you should immediately start rolling the dough, otherwise the soda will "fly away".

And one more case. The pumpkins have already been made and put in a colander for cooking, and suddenly it turns out that they turn yellow, that is, too much soda: you can put a wide glass of vinegar in a colander and cover everything with a lid. After 7-8 minutes after boiling, the yellow color will disappear, and the donuts will become white.
Matching dough:

Many recipes use a suitable dough as a leaven. It can also be prepared as follows: mix a glass of flour with a glass of warm water, leave for 5-6 hours; then add a glass of any beer and 1 tbsp. a spoonful of granulated sugar, oh.
A source 🔗

How much do you put in?

for 600-700g of flour, I take 250g of sourdough.

klazy, today the bread really seemed to me better, but I keep it in the refrigerator, I was afraid to keep it in the bread bin at room temperature, because after baking there was a sour smell all over the apartment.
Lyulek, I also want my bread to be not sour.

I bake with malt sourdough. And I also had a period when the bread was sour. And I also wanted good tasty sourdough bread.
I was sure that if we used to bake normal tasty bread, and sweet pastries, and sourdough cakes, then everything should work out for us.

The easiest way out was found - this is dough on dough.
I knead the dough (200 ml of water, 2 tablespoons of sourdough, 225 g of wheat flour) and wait for it to ripen.
As soon as it is about to begin to settle, I add all the other ingredients, knead the dough.
When it rises, I bake in a bread maker or in the oven.
I put the dough the same for wheat, rye, and sweet.

The bread is delicious, completely non-acidic.

Kseny
Thank you for your questions, because they prompted me to look for additional. information and this is what I found 🔗:

"1000. Normal rye bread


Samples of normal quality molded bread made from wholemeal rye flour.
Characteristics of products.
Appearance - correct shape; normal volumetric yield and weight corresponding to the size of the bread pan.
Uniform skin color - brown with a slight gloss.
The surface is smooth without tears, bulges and large cracks. The upper crust is thin, convex.
The baking is sufficient. When cutting, the crumb does not stick to the knife, does not crumble. The pulp chews well and does not clump, does not stick to the teeth. The porosity is well developed, uniformly coarse, not coarse, without voids and compaction.
The elasticity is good. After light pressure with your fingers on the crumb, it returns to its previous position.
The smell and taste are specific to rye bread.



1001. Defect - high acidity

Shaped table bread with varying degrees of defectiveness, accompanying high acidity.
Defect characteristics. Bread (1) is distinguished by a rough top crust with wide, spreading cracks on the surface, and a large uneven crumb porosity. The color of the crusts is whitish.
Bread (2), in comparison with the first, has a greater volumetric yield, on the surface there is only one longitudinal crack. The porosity of the bread is uniform and well developed. The shade of the crumb is darker, reddish.
Bread (Fig. 3) is distinguished by deep undermining of the upper crust, large cracks on the surface, sharply sour taste, excessively elastic and dark crumb.


Defect reasons. Bread (1). When kneading the dough, an old, fermented and overly acidic sourdough was used. This resulted in a reduced gas holding capacity of the dough.
Crust defects were enhanced by full proofing and airing of the dough surface. Spraying the dough pieces before planting in the oven gave the crusts a gloss, but the cracks remained.
These defects could intensify to the formation of breaks and voids in the crumb with excessive moisture in the dough or due to sharp throws of molds when landing on pods.
The bread (2) was made with normal quality sourdough, but the water temperature was too high during the dough. The dough turned out to be at an elevated temperature, which led to an excessive accumulation of acidity and darkening of the crumb.
Bread (3). The dough of a stronger consistency, excessively warm, strongly fermented due to technical downtime in production.
Methods of prevention: 1. Carefully monitor the lifting force and acidity of the starter cultures (heads), promptly refresh them or withdraw them again.
2. Avoid cooking too warm dough.
3. Provide an optimal proofing mode for dough pieces.



1002. Defect - Lack of Salt

Defect characteristics.In hearth breads, a lack or complete absence of salt, with all other normal indicators, can give the product a slightly more vague shape, the lower crust is slightly concave, and in the shaped ones, the side crusts are softer, concave. The crumb pores are enlarged, thick-walled. The upper crust is flat or, when fully proofed, sharply concave, saddle-shaped. The taste of the products is insipid. Often, the absence of salt in the dough results in reduced elasticity due to insufficient protein swelling during crumb formation.
Prevention method. Strict adherence to the dosage of salt in the dough in accordance with the production recipe.
The necessary addition of salt for good dough formation and taste varies for different varieties from 1.2 to 2%, except for special varieties for which an increased rate is provided.
Flour of reduced baking quality or admixture of defective flour necessitates an increase in the dosage of salt to 2-2.5%.
In cases of making special dietetic varieties (achloride bread) without the addition of salt, a special technology of dough making is used - the proportion of flour in the sourdough dough increases to 70% of the total flour consumption for baking.



1002. Defect - Lack of Salt

Defect characteristics. In hearth breads, a lack or complete absence of salt, with all other normal indicators, can give the product a slightly more vague shape, the lower crust is slightly concave, and in the shaped ones, the side crusts are softer, concave. The crumb pores are enlarged, thick-walled. The upper crust is flat or, when fully proofed, sharply concave, saddle-shaped. The taste of the products is insipid. Often, the absence of salt in the dough results in reduced elasticity due to insufficient protein swelling during crumb formation.
Prevention method. Strict adherence to the dosage of salt in the dough in accordance with the production recipe.
The necessary addition of salt for good dough formation and taste varies for different varieties from 1.2 to 2%, except for special varieties for which an increased rate is provided.
Flour of reduced baking quality or admixture of defective flour necessitates an increase in the dosage of salt to 2-2.5%.
In cases of making special dietetic varieties (achloride bread) without the addition of salt, a special technology of dough making is used - the proportion of flour in the sourdough dough increases to 70% of the total flour consumption for baking.




1003. Defect - large cracks, deformation of the upper crust

Defect characteristics. A bread made from wholemeal wheat flour with a significantly deformed upper crust due to wide, spreading cracks across the entire surface. The upper crust is not round and overhangs slightly over the lateral crusts. The porosity is rough, uneven, larger in the center of the product. The taste and smell are sour.
Defect reasons. Significant over-spreading of windy dough pieces before baking. The defect intensifies if the dough is cooked more moist, against the norm allowed by the standard and the baking characteristics of flour.
Methods of prevention: 1. Ensure the optimal mode and duration of proofing of dough pieces.
2. Avoid too warm damp dough, strictly observe the production recipe and dough-keeping regimen.
When processing weak flour, the dough from which is strongly thinned in the proofing, it is recommended to reduce the proofing time to a minimum, increase the salt dosage. To avoid voids in the crumb, the surface of the dough pieces can be pricked.



1004. Defect - excessive density and dampness

Defect characteristics. Rye baked bread made from wallpaper flour is distinguished by an excessively dense, low-porous, inelastic, crumbly crumb, unpleasant sour taste, pale rough (due to small cracks) upper crusts, and compaction of pores under them.
Defect reasons. Highly swellable flour of long storage was used for baking. The lack of water during kneading caused an excessively steep dough, in which there was an increase in acidity with poor rise and loosening.Peroxidized dense dough at normal normal temperature in the baking chamber did not bake well. The bread remained damp and the crusts were coarse without the usual caramelization.


Methods of prevention: 1. Depending on the characteristics of the so-called "loading" of flour, determine the desired, softer consistency of the dough. In this case, it is necessary to take into account the indicators of the water absorption capacity of the flour and the data of the test baking about the swelling of flour during the dough formation process.
2. If necessary, produce a mixture of flour of different baking qualities.
1007. Defect - roughness of the crusts

Defect characteristics. Samples of bread made from rye wallpaper are characterized by flat, strongly wrinkled, cracked, thickened and burnt upper crust. The pulp is dark with a reddish-brown tint. The porosity is rough, thick-walled. The taste is sour.

Defect reasons. Accelerated accumulation of acid in too warm dough, which fermented in containers before molding.
The conditions and duration of the final proofing of the dough pieces were kept as required for a normal dough. This led to over-spreading, wrinkling and subsidence of the surface of the dough pieces.
Baking the acidified dough in an overheated baking chamber resulted in thickened and burnt crusts and darkening of the crumb color.
Methods of prevention: 1. When kneading the dough, do not allow too warm water (even in winter not higher than 47 ° C) and deviations from the normal fermentation temperature of rye dough (not higher than 29-31 ° C).
2. Before serving for cutting, carefully control the final acidity of the dough.
3. Depending on the temperature, acidity and physical properties of the dough, adjust the conditions and duration of the final proofing and baking.



1008. Defect - dense crumb

Samples of tin bread were prepared from the same rye-wheat flour of wallpaper grinding, the same weight (1.3 kg each) and baked under the same conditions in the same oven.
Bread (1) is made of dough of normal consistency, sufficiently loosened and fermented.
Bread (2) - from a dough of a steeper consistency with high acidity.
Product characteristics. Bread (1) - of sufficient volume, with a dark brown thin and convex upper crust, with well-developed, uniform crumb porosity. The crumb is well baked, elastic. The bread is of satisfactory quality.
Defect characteristics. Bread (2) - lower volumetric yield. The upper crust is paler. The surface is cracked. The porosity of the crumb is fine, uneven, with compacted areas. The crumb of reduced elasticity. The taste is sour.

The cause of the defect. Insufficient moisture content of the dough prevented the complete loosening, the development of volume and porosity of the product, and contributed to an increased increase in acidity.

Prevention method. Compliance with the exact dosage of raw materials (liquids) when kneading the dough in accordance with the production recipe.



1009. Defect - swollen, burnt upper crust

Defect characteristics. Shaped bread made from rye-wheat flour of wallpaper grinding is distinguished by deep lateral blasting along the loaf and large burnt bubbles on the upper crust. The crumb is dryish, not elastic enough, the porosity is uneven, poorly developed, compacted at the crusts, especially the lateral ones. The bread is tasteless, slightly bitter.
The cause of the defect. Insufficient proofing of dough pieces from steep, low-fermented dough. Often the cause of this defect is also the use of a weakened or spoiled original starter culture.
Methods of prevention: 1. Systematically control the quality of the original starter culture (acidity and lifting force), periodically renew or re-hatch.
2. Do not allow non-fermented dough into cutting, and not enough dough pieces for baking - Do not bake such dough at an elevated temperature.



1010. Defect - gaps and voids in the crumb

Defect characteristics. A sample of molded bread made from rye-wheat flour of wallpaper grinding has a deep gap (void) in the upper part of the crumb.These voids can be at different levels and as a result of various reasons.
The cause of the defect. The most common are the following: 1. Abrupt throwing of the molds on the bottom at high dough humidity.
2. Transplanting bread (requiring toasting) too early during the baking process until a firm crumb is obtained.
3. Baking bread from insufficiently fermented, youthful or too moist dough.
Accompanying defects are coarse thick-walled pores, sometimes shiny (at high humidity), moist crumbling when cut.
Warning methods:
1. Carefully ensure that the dough to be cut is completely fermented.
2. Avoid deviations from the norms of moisture content of the dough, excessive proofing of the dough in molds and sharp drops when planting on the pod.



1011. Defect - insufficient elasticity of the crumb

Defect characteristics. Samples of rye-wheat shaped bread are distinguished by a low volumetric yield, pale, thickened, rough and dull crusts. The crumb is very dense, almost loosened, low elastic, with dry crumbness, poorly chewed.
Defect reasons:
1. An insufficient amount of water was taken for kneading the dough without taking into account the water absorption capacity of the flour.
2. Low dough temperature. Under these conditions, the fermentation of the dough was sluggish, without sufficient gas-forming ability.
3. The bread was baked for a long time at a low temperature in the baking chamber.
Similar defects in bread can also appear when using flour from fresh grain without appropriate maturation and maturation, if no special technological measures are taken to improve the quality of the products.
Warning methods:
1. Adjust the dosage of water and its temperature to obtain a well-fermented, crumbly dough.
2. Moisten the surface of the dough pieces before placing them in the oven.
3. Use flour mixed with flour of a higher baking quality.



1012. Defect - overhanging crust

Defect characteristics. Shaped bread made of rye wallpaper flour. It has an irregular shape.
Defect reasons. The volume (weight) of the dough pieces exceeds the capacity of the existing bread forms, which, when fully proofed, gives a mushroom-shaped upper crust hanging over the side ones.
If in the total batch of baked bread only individual loaves have a mushroom-like shape, then this indicates periodic deviations in the work of the dough dividing machine.
A different weight of dough pieces is observed in cases when the filling level of the dough-receiving funnel or the density of the dough in it changes sharply.
Warning methods:
1. Align the weight of the products with the capacity of the bread tins.
2. Avoid excessive final spreading of dough pieces.
3. Regularly check the fill level of the dough divider in the hopper.
4. Carefully control the weight of the dough pieces when leaving the dough divider. Return dough pieces with deviations from the specified weight into the receiving funnel, without allowing them to be proofed. "

Of course, this information is for bakeries, the reasons for increased acidity are considered here, such as a high fermentation temperature (now I understand why the dough should be in a cool place, and proofing is desirable), a lack of salt in the dough also affects the acidity of the dough.

But now I can say that I acted more or less correctly with the leaven (apparently intuitively or having read something briefly somewhere):
1. I have been using starter culture straight from the refrigerator for a long time. I knead the dough on it and put it in a cool place for 6-12 hours. Then the dough is kneaded and raised again in a cool place.
2. I feed the remaining starter culture and let it stand at room temperature for 1-1.5 hours (not in a warm place). It increases by 30-40%. I put it back in the refrigerator until the next bake.

Lyulёk, and you do bread without yeast at all, on one sourdough? Then the sour smell and taste will always be present.

1001.Defect - high acidity

Defect reasons. Bread (1). When kneading the dough, an old, fermented and overly acidic sourdough was used.

I regularly renew the sourdough, take the right amount for baking, straight from the refrigerator (for 500 grams of flour approximately 200-250 gr. sourdough,), in what remains I add a new portion of flour + water, stir, stood on the table for 6 - 8 hours, during this time I will mix it 2 times, and in the refrigerator. The next day I bake bread from this leaven.

Lyulёk, and you do bread without yeast at all, on one sourdough? Then the sour smell and taste will always be present.

I regularly renew the leaven, take the right amount for baking, straight from the refrigerator (for 500 g of flour, about 100-150 g of sourdough,), in what remains I add a new portion of flour + water, stir, it stood on the table for 6 - 8 hours , during this time I will mix 2 times, and in the refrigerator. The next day I bake bread from this leaven.

I make rye bread on one leaven. Strange, but this bread is not sour at all. Maybe because I put a lot of potatoes there? Or maybe because my leaven is not very sour? She only costs 1-1.5 hours outside the refrigerator.

HAPPENED!!! THANK YOU!!!
My husband said that this is not just bread, but a culinary masterpiece. I just tried it, I was ready to switch to bread and water. The deliciousness is indescribable, it rose as it should (it seems to me that it has increased 3 times since the days of the kolobok), it turned out with a hump, with a crispy crust, airy, perforated. There is no sourness at all!
So what did you do:
I took as a basis someone's recipe for wheat bread on rye sourdough, unfortunately I don't remember whose, I reduced it by 2 times, it worked.
wheat flour - 250 gr.
water -100 ml
milk - 50 ml
olive oil - 1 tbsp. l.
salt - 3/4 tsp.
brown sugar (cane) fine - 1/2 tbsp. l.
cumin - 1/2 tsp. (seeds) - added when mixing after the signal
lactic acid sourdough from Admin (kefir and rye flour) - 4 tbsp. l. superohm. Special thanks to Admin! I fed the leaven on March 12, baked bread yesterday, and immediately took the leaven from the refrigerator. She has a wonderful smell, apples, all so airy!
So, I put all the ingredients in the HP and mixed them with the "baguettes" program. (I will say that I liked it more than on the "yeast dough" program. It's amazing that I didn't have to add anything, neither flour, nor water, although I was ready and armed. The gingerbread man is excellent. in time, it seems about an hour.
Then she took out the dough from the bucket, kneaded it, rolled it into an oval shape and put the bucket in the center. All. Left for the night it fits, it turned out 6.5 hours (from 01:30 to 08:00). In the morning I saw a giant size in a bucket and began to bake right away. I baked for an hour on program 14, after sprinkling with water.
I repeat that there is no sourness at all, rather it is even sweetish! I remember that the previous one was super sour.
I think the secret is this. The last time I took the fed sourdough, that is, she did not have time to eat the kefir and therefore the bread was sour, and even put a lot of it. This time she took a hungry leaven.
Thanks again to this forum and to all of you!
Now I will master rye!

No, girls, I'm probably not only in a tank, but also in a helmet, too
How to feed the starter culture?
How long should she rest?
In what state (full / hungry, warm / cold) and how much should you put in bread?

He feeds three times, then - in bread, the other - does not feed at all, adds from the refrigerator, the other - "I will feed a little, stood for a couple of hours on the table - run and work !!!"

No, I understand that the sourdoughs / flour / liquid / kitchen / hands / microflora / humidity / weather conditions / aura and "so the stars rose" are different for everyone ... but I really want to "explain this owl"))

To begin with, you will decide what kind of starter you need and what is right, start growing it and try it out.
Start, for example, with lactic acid or kefir from Admin. One will work out, you will like it, then continue your experiments with other leavens.How to cook them - at the beginning of the topic.

uh-uh ... so my lactic acid from Admin is worth ... I, without hesitation, did everything according to Roma's recommendations ... only when I fed the leaven (the second feeding cycle), it was after the first feeding (the first day) grew much bigger and better than after the second and third ... so I think, maybe you really don't need a manazzo with her for 3 days?

So start baking with her - and the problems will be solved by themselves, she took, fed, etc. and ad infinitum ..........

klazy, I have already baked with sourdough 3 times and everything is super! Always good! I fed relatives, colleagues ... Now everyone says, let's get a recipe for sourdough, bread
I just grew the leaven for three days. That is, for the first time I mixed flour + kefir, fed it a day later (added kefir + flour) and a day later again the same thing. Then she put it in the refrigerator. After 2-3 days, the leaven looked like this: it gave off the smell of apples, it grew about 2 times in the jar, it was porous and airy when stirred.
I think this is the very state when you can take it for baking. I take it straight from the fridge and knead it.
I do not advise using the sourdough immediately after feeding, since the taste of kefir will be felt in the bread and the bread will be sour, it has been verified by personal experience.
As far as I understand, you already have the leaven. When was the last meal? Refrigerate if recently fed. If she has been for a long time, then feed and put in the refrigerator. And watch her daily. As soon as you see signs of compliance: an increase in volume, porosity, airiness, you can bake. It is often impossible to feed, she will not have time to "digest" and there will not be the state that I wrote about. My bread recipe is a little higher, it has already been tested 3 times and everything is very successful.
Good luck!

I already baked with her already 2 times
the bread was really sour (although I love sour rye :)) + the smell of sourdough in the bread is not very good for me. I like it (and people write that it smells delicious :)) ... although the sourdough itself does smell sour apple (or apple cider vinegar :))
last fed her on Saturday. left 1 tbsp. l., by today it has already risen 2 times (or even more) and bubbled - can you bake from it already? but it's not enough: ((or feed and bake in a couple of days? advise, pliz.

klazy, I do not understand, how much leaven do you have? one tablespoon? This is very small. You probably didn’t feed the rest when you baked from leaven. You can't bake anything out of this amount. I use 3-4 tablespoons (about 100 grams) for 250 grams. flour. Sour bread will not be at all if everything is done correctly.
1. Take a glass container, put the existing leaven into it.
2. Take a glass or a cup of settled kefir (I defended it as follows: I poured kefir into a glass and put it on the battery overnight, in the morning it is already ready for feeding), add flour to the consistency of pancake dough and add to the container with sourdough. Cover with a damp towel, place closer to the battery and leave for a day. As it dries, the towel should be moistened again so that the sourdough does not dry out on top and does not form a crust.
3. After a day, feed with the same amount of kefir and flour as in point 2 and leave for a day in the same place. You need to stir, observe. The leaven will rise and fall.
4. After a day, repeat the procedure, let stand for several hours and put in the refrigerator. You will then have enough.
5. After a few days (2 for example), see if it becomes airy, take it for baking directly from the refrigerator, DO NOT FEED. Take 4 tbsp. l. 250 gr. flour. Knead the dough and leave to rise for 6-8 hours. My test lasts 6 hours.
6. The remaining starter should be fed with the same amount that you took for baking (NOT LESS), more can be put in the refrigerator for the next time.

Yes???
I did everything like that, only, according to the Admin instructions (if I could understand it correctly), I tried to use the leaven for 12-18 hours after the last (third) feeding ...I used almost all the leaven in baking, 1-2 tbsp. l. left to rest in the refrigerator ... now it turns out, did I do everything wrong?

You did everything right, and Admin did it right too

Only after Admin made this leaven for the first time, a lot of time passed, and people appeared who also began to make MK-leaven and many other leavens, and everyone adapts their leaven for themselves and their conditions of detention, and make these leavens the way they are told the leaven itself and their experience with it.

Admin has also grown her new rye sourdough and watches it constantly and looks at its behavior, when and how to feed it, how much and what then comes out of it in baking bread, how much to put in each case, etc.
This is what my beauty looks like today. This sourdough rose so much (see the label on the can) after 8 hours of feeding.



You can give a lot of advice, but nevertheless, you still need to proceed from your own observations and try to make friends with the leaven.
You know, it's like being on an island without a connection - and you want to eat, so you need to get out of the situation yourself and grow the leaven, then the experience of communicating with the leaven will definitely come!

By the way, I do this often - I read the information, and then I conjure and observe myself.
The most important thing is not to be afraid to spoil the product!

Good luck to all!

Thank you Admin! Thank you Kseny!
I was plagued by vague doubts, since my leaven clearly rose better after the first day of feeding than after the second and third ... Ok, "we will search / observe"))
Thank you all for your help, girls! :))

[samnadin]

Quote samnadin in the topic "Borodino bread, Moulinex OW5004, help"

“Nothing bothers me, I just don't know whether she is ready or not. Now I have reviewed and re-read everything that Admin has. It turns out that she needs to be fed one more time. It seems to me that she will come out of the can. Is it possible to transfer it somewhere? And I still didn't understand. Should the sourdough you put in the jar need to be fed three times or should it stand for five days in the refrigerator without feeding? "

I answer your question in this thread, since this is not only a problem with Borodino bread:

From what you read on the forum about sourdough, make up for yourself a certain scheme of its cultivation and feeding, write it down as a souvenir, watch it further and everything will become clear.

Firstly, there are so many leavens on the forum that everyone has already forgotten which ones they use, everything got confused, and they began to say one word “leaven”.

Let's put together a diagram of your leaven.
You made the leaven, it boils well and constantly begs for food. It is also harmful to constantly overfeed the leaven.
But even a new bubbling leaven is not a strong leaven yet; it will gain strength when you start using it.
You don't need to keep a whole jar of sourdough with you, if only you need so much for baking bread.

Try working with 100% leaven.
This means that you need to take a tablespoon of the sourdough from the new bubbling sourdough, put it in a clean jar and add only 20 grams of flour and 25 grams of water to it, mix and leave alone for a day.
After 6-8 hours, you will see that the leaven has risen in volume by 2-2.5 times and started to fall off. Mark the jar when you fed her and then you will see her move. But the next feeding in the same amount (20 grams of flour + 25 grams of water) should be done every other day, regardless of the fact that it went down after 6-8 hours.
Here's how in my photo:



Thus, the starter dough can be fed continuously.

You can use the option when part of the sourdough is thrown away after a day, but still a new amount of flour and water is added in the proportion that I indicated.

You can feed the starter culture once every 2-3 days, but again in the same proportion.
Let's call it "Basic" leaven

Watch for the smell and taste of the leaven. The smell should be slightly sour vinegar-yeast, sour taste. You can try (and even need to) on the tongue - it's not dangerous.

I wrote this about how to feed the leaven.
You can store the starter in a cool place, over 10 * C, now it can be a balcony, a kitchen window, or maybe a refrigerator shelf, if conditions permit.
I store the starter culture in a 500 ml plastic food jar, a small hole for air is made in the lid, I put on a net on top.
And there is no need to keep a lot of leaven in stock.

What to do if you need to take a sourdough for baking bread.

The sourdough is 100% the most convenient for making calculations with it.
For example, you need to use 500 grams of different types of flour for bread.
The approximate optimal amount of starter used is 40% by weight of the flour.
This means that we need to take 500x40% = 200 grams of sourdough.
200 grams at 100% sourdough means 100 grams of flour and 100 grams of water in the sourdough.
Where can I get this much leaven?
From the "base" sourdough, select 25 grams of sourdough, add 100 grams of flour, 100 grams of water to it, mix, and put it near the heat or just on the table. After 6-8-12 hours, the leaven will increase in volume by 2-2.5 times.
This will be the right amount of sourdough for baking bread.
Take all this sourdough 200 grams and put it in the dough for kneading.

If you notice, to get the right amount of starter for the dough, I have increased the "base" amount of flour and water 5 times.
We had 5 grams of leaven (1 tablespoon) + 20 grams of flour + 25 grams of water - and it became 25 grams of leaven + 100 grams of flour + 100 grams of water.
Take the "base" value as a basis and proportion to get the right amount of leaven to the weight of flour (different) in the bread recipe.

And continue to feed the "basic" starter culture further, as described above.

There are other formulas for calculating the required amount of sourdough for kneading dough.

But to move on to these formulas and the need to do it, try the lighter and more affordable option first - 100% leaven.

And further.
I have described here an average and simple and affordable option for feeding, storing and calculating the sourdough, which I give as a guide for beginners and those who want to start sourdough.
I do not even mention the name of the leaven, but there are many different ones, and each has its own principles and approaches and sometimes whims.

Personally, I now work with pure rye sourdough, and switched to baking sourdough bread from wheat-rye flour.

The main thing is to start!

Wish you luck!

My thoughts on leavening. Lyrical digression.

There are many, many different starters in the world, including on our forum.

There are, let us say, "classic" sourdoughs, which include French sourdough, Calville sourdough, wheat-rye sourdough, and there are several other sourdoughs.
These sourdoughs are grown, developed and fed according to strictly defined rules, so as not to spoil the "breed" of sourdough and thereby not spoil the bread that is baked on them, its qualities and requirements for this bread.
This type of bread is baked according to certain standards.
Taking care of such leavens requires some work and requirements, which must also be observed. But it's worth it!

If you do not comply with these requirements and deviate from them, we transfer our starter culture to the category of "ordinary" starter cultures that require care, but in a lightened form.
Such conditions can be observed by those who cannot (or do not want) to devote the full time to feeding the sourdough, as required by the "classic" sourdough cultures.

I am one of those, and I choose the "classic" wheat-rye sourdough, with easier conditions for caring for it, but observing certain rules in order to get a decent taste of baked bread - porous and tasty!

Why wheat-rye? Because for a few additional dressings, it can be transferred from wheat to rye, and at the right time, turn it back, and transfer it from rye to wheat.

Now my opinion on the different names of starter cultures on our forum.

We made many different starter cultures. Only the essence of these ferments has not changed.
All of them remained wheat or rye.
Except as MK-starter culture, which must be fed with lactic acid products throughout its life period.
If you start feeding this sourdough simply with flour (wheat or rye) and water (instead of kefir), then it also becomes a simple wheat or rye sourdough after a few dressings.

The same thing happens with other leavens - potato, juice, grain, etc.

Potatoes or juice, for example, serve only as a base for fermentation. Further, feeding with flour and water begins, and nothing remains of the potatoes after a few dressings.
And if you try to constantly feed the same potato sourdough with potatoes and water in equal proportions (or boiled potatoes + a decoction from it) plus flour (wheat or rye).
Then we will get, perhaps, just the potato sourdough.

The same is true for the sourdough on pineapple, apple juice and other products on which the original sourdough was put.
After all, the properties of the leaven depend on what and how to feed it in the future, and not on what it was originally mixed with.

After all, the quality of the bread dough and the quality of the dough baked with these starter cultures will depend on what kind of starter culture we "stir up", on what initial products, how we take care of it, how to feed it, according to what rules to grow and observe many other conditions for keeping the starter culture. of bread.

Don't throw your slippers at me. I personally expressed my opinion about the starter cultures.

Admin, thanks, very interesting topic. I look forward to continuing. I will also measure the level of the sourdough next time to know how much it will grow.
I agree that in further use it is not important what the starter was originally put on, but it is important what we feed it now.
I wonder how much the difference is noticeable in bread baked with "thoroughbred" leaven and with "ordinary" ones. Maybe the difference is not so significant, because there and there the leaven and the principle of operation are the same. Maybe someone compared?

I talked to a microbiologist. His opinion is that leavens differ only in flavor shades. By and large, yeast in all leavens ... So it doesn't matter where the fermentation started. By the way, he advised to feed the sourdoughs with flour boiled in boiling water. Thus, sugar is obtained from starch, which is necessary for the life of the yeast (I did not remember what it was all called correctly).

This advice alone should not apply to all leavens at once.

Each leaven has its own effect and continues, and this procedure is not suitable for all leavens.

Although, the experiments have not been canceled, go for it - let's see what happens

I talked to a microbiologist. His opinion is that leavens differ only in flavor shades. By and large, yeast in all starter cultures ...

It is not important how fermentation began - but the essence is important how to feed her further and how to take care of her.

There are unleavened leavens, and there are sour ones, there are those that contain wild yeast, etc.

If it was all the same, then why bakers, scientists are studying the properties of ferments.
Why do we need separate wheat and rye leavens separately?
Well, we would have baked all the bread in a row on one wheat leaven, why are we suffering?

And will a rye or kefir sourdough give such holes in bread as does a French sourdough on wheat flour?

No, all starter cultures contain yeast, but they are all different - and so good!
You can understand this yourself if you try to grow different sourdoughs and bake different breads on them and evaluate it in appearance and taste!

I still have a question. I met on the forum information that when storing starter cultures in the refrigerator, lactic acid bacteria die, wild yeast remains. What is the basis for this statement? Is it so? I understand that lactic acid bacteria are better than wild yeast for our body.

I know that Lyudmila (mariana-aha) wrote about this in her LJ ... but I don't know what it was based on ...

Lactic acid bacteria die at temperatures below 10C.

But if you think about it ... it turns out then all these yoghurts fermented in yogurt makers, after being stored in the refrigerator, are they never useful?

But if you think about it ... it turns out then all these yoghurts fermented in yogurt makers, after being stored in the refrigerator, are they never useful?

I'll rephrase my previous post a bit.
At temperatures below 10 degrees, lactic acid bacteria "lose" the war to wild yeast and die a "death of the brave" in an unequal battle, because they are too weak to compete with the "wild". "Thoroughbred" after all.

I wonder how much the difference is noticeable in bread baked with "thoroughbred" leaven and with "ordinary" ones. Maybe the difference is not so significant, because there and there the leaven and the principle of operation are the same. Maybe someone compared?

Yes, I was comparing. For me, "purebred" sourdough is, first of all, that sourdough that is stored under suitable temperature conditions and fed in high proportions, and only secondarily - by what method it was grown and whose name it bears. When feeding in low proportions, ANY starter culture is over-acidified and depleted. The crust becomes uninteresting and loses much in taste, the crust is thick, bulletproof and does not blush well. The same "thoroughbred", ie, optimal, ratio of bacteria and microorganisms, which was achieved after the cultivation of the leaven, and was responsible for the quality of the bread, is violated.

I can tell you about an even greater "terrible horror" with a difference in taste. If only I had noticed it, I would have thought that I had lost my mind. But the same difference is seen by my household ... The taste of bread is significantly different even if you accelerate the maturation of the dough with high temperature. That bread, for which my dough ripens at about 20 *, turns out to be much richer in taste than "accelerated" by 30 degrees.

Although ... someone has already told me that I "had a snack" and was too picky. Maybe that's the way it is?

But ... nevertheless ... my experience with the leaven suggests that, whatever one may say, there is a difference.

The taste of the bread is significantly different even if you accelerate the maturation of the dough with a high temperature. That bread, for which my dough ripens at about 20 *, turns out to be much richer in taste than "accelerated" by 30 degrees.

Although ... someone has already told me that I "had a snack" and was too picky. Maybe that's the way it is?

But ... nevertheless ... my experience with the leaven suggests that, whatever one may say, there is a difference.

Yes, I also came to this conclusion.
When I add warm water to the dough when feeding, the bread is sour.
And if I add water at room temperature, then the taste of the bread is normal.

It was somehow cool here at home, and the leaven was from the refrigerator,
so the dough ripened for 19 hours, but the bread, surprisingly, turned out to be delicious.

And I, as always, with my "trifle" (5 kopecks).
Joining the experience of previous "leaveners", I want to say that bread tastes better not only on "cold" dough, but also when it is left not in a warm place, but at 18-20 C. I also had such an experience, by accident. It was necessary to run somewhere urgently for 3-4 hours, and I just formed bread. The decision was taken spontaneously - proofing in a cool place. After 4 hours the bread rose as well as after 1 hour in a warm place - but the taste !!! 15 minutes after baking I could not force myself to crawl away from the bread - I smelled it like a maniac.
Now I “play” with bread for a long time, but I do everything in the “cold”: cold water, dough in a cool place and proofing in a cool place too. With only one caveat: if time permits!

this is how bread turned out

[yana09]

yana09 ,
in appearance - very pretty, but the taste?

My daughter liked it. Before that, I baked American bread without kneading. this one looks like Russian bread (as appreciated by the daughter). there is another bread in the shops

Girls, tell me, many people write that the leaven should be stored at a temperature of +10. Where do you find this temperature in summer?

Girls, tell me, many people write that the leaven should be stored at a temperature of +10.Where do you find this temperature in summer?

At a temperature NOT LESS THAN +10. So it can be higher. I kept it at room temperature all last summer. Just feeding more often. And if there is an air conditioner (or a cellar) - no problem at all.

[Judi]

JudiI have been keeping my starter in the refrigerator for 4 years now. Empirically, using a room thermometer, I found a place on the top shelf of the refrigerator where the temperature is 12 degrees, that's where my leaven lives both in summer and in winter.

Help me please! I decided to grow MK sourdough according to the Admin master class. She spent the WHOLE DAY without moving, maybe it was cool for her, maybe my rye flour did not like it. A day later, I fed her with coarse wheat flour + C / z. I put it in the oven at 30 *. And she came to life!
Now the question is: from the beginning of her life, the third day went, and from the time of the manifestation of activity, only the second. How to count?
I fed her in the evening, all the times. And today, having taken it out of the refrigerator, not otherwise than from sleep, I fed it again. And now what i can do? Should I feed her in the evening? I have it in the oven again, and I'm at work.
And how can we continue to live with her, what to do? I won't be able to bake until tomorrow after work. We just need help!

Until tomorrow it will fall off - it should be so. Try to refresh it again in the morning, but only a little, just to refresh it and it remains active.
The leaven will have enough feeding for 12-14 hours, after which it will fall off.
In the dough, you need to lay the leaven as soon as the cap begins to fall off - a sign of readiness.
Active starter culture should be used no later than 14-16 hours after feeding and then give it the opportunity to rest.

And don't keep the sourdough warm all the time. Now the room is warm enough for her to be active. Do not spoil the leaven with warm - it is also harmful for it.

Success

Admin, thanks for the answer! And put it in the refrigerator overnight? Zest writes that it is harmful to the leaven. In the morning I will feed her a little and in the evening you can bake, did I understand correctly?

[Sveta]

Sveta
If you have grown MK leaven, then you have no other choice. You will have to store only in the refrigerator.

MK-Sourdough is very active, sour quickly in the heat. I keep it in the refrigerator on a shelf with a positive temperature - there I have + 8-10 * C.

In general, observe the sourdough yourself, do as you like, and be guided by what kind of bread you make and whether you like this bread. Read reviews of other users' starter culture.

Raisin and I have different leavens, and each of us brings up his own leaven based on his experience and preferences.

Yeah. that they don’t want to be friends with me. I made yeast on kefir too. Well, they don't want to grow into anything. 5 days ago I made it again eternal on organic flour. how she made me happy at first. and the view is good and in bubbles. even molded it from it and converted it into wheat. I probably don't understand something or I'm doing it wrong. For 5 days she does not want to grow, even though there are bubbles. probably still have to wait. So I want to finally bake sourdough bread

Open the Lactic sour culture theme by Admin
https://Mcooker-enn.tomathouse.com/index.php@option=com_smf&topic=3394.0


Pay enough attention to the topic (and not run), carefully look at the text and pictures - I so meticulously collected information and took a photo, described every movement of the leaven!

I don't even know what else can and should be added to the text

Make a daily plan for yourself - what and how to do and watch.

And go ahead!

I always grow sourdoughs like that - I make a feeding scheme, write down what and when to do, and then make a comment for myself along the way. And you can see everything at once

Admin, I have printed out your manual and my MK leaven and I are trying to live by it. It bubbles, smells like sourdough, everything is in order. But such a rise, as in your photo, has never been! What does this mean? Today we are 4 days old (we subtract one day, she stood motionless)

in fact of the matter. I read the forum every day looking for something I might have missed.I read about leavens everywhere - not only here. maybe the flour is not good here (I live in America). took organic rye flour for the last time. the leaven began to bubble so well that I was delighted. turns out ahead of time: red: today is 6 days. she blows tiny bubbles and that's it .... I feed all the time at the same time, in the morning. what else could be. maybe she's cold.? What do you think, since she has not disappeared yet, can she stand as long as she wants? until it ripens?

I have the same problem ...
I read the forum, but I printed out about the lactic sourdough culture. Allowance.
BUT! My leaven is worth neither bubbles, nor does it show any activity at all
Milk sour rustic, real. Flour "Nastyusha rye", in my opinion "seeded". Stands in the kitchen near the stove, it is warmest there. It has been worth a day already, it smells good, a mixture of kefirchik and rye flour. If only it spoiled, or something ... It would not be so offensive ...
The only thing is, tomorrow I will try to ferment the whey from this milk with flour, maybe it will work. I really want to add sourdough to the rye bread, otherwise I can't do it very well ...
Maybe a special temperature regime is needed for the starter culture? I have about 26 degrees in the kitchen.

How long does it cost? and without movement

How long does it cost? and without movement

It's been a day already.
I even put a thermometer next to it, the temperature is 26 degrees, as expected ... I don't understand anything, it smells so nice.