French starters

[margosha]

margosha, welcome to the ranks of the starters!
1. The increased temperature will simply speed up the fermentation process.
2. A glass bowl is good, but a tightly closed lid is bad. It is necessary to provide air access (at least a hole)

We breathe in the hole!

I am intensively studying the topic of leavening. I confuse myself more and more. It's too late to retreat. In general, while I grow according to the proposed scheme, and then again to you for help.

Girls, thanks for the answer, and what is your opinion / experience, is the crumb structure better on water or on whey?

Girls, and no one will answer me about honey?

I'm talking about honey from my "leavening" practice. When the fermenting forces are depleted, honey feeds it with microelements and vitamins, and in addition, it disinfects and destroys the "newly attached" microorganisms alien to the symbiosis of the ferment. I kept thinking, how does one distinguish “friends” from “aliens” in this struggle? And then I came to the conclusion that "ours" are strong and long-formed units, which are not so easy to destroy, but the "left outsiders" have not yet taken root, so from them it adds honey in the first place, feeding the correct education.
I was sick for the last week, I completely abandoned the leaven, kept it on a starvation ration, and then I did not like the smell at all. I had to cheer up with honey, rye flour, so it got okay, the usual pleasant sour-milk aroma returned.

[Zest]

Zest, Thank you. They saved my sourdough, too, honey with rye flour. It has become warmer in our apartment, accordingly, too. I put the leaven in the refrigerator today. In this regard, a question arose. When she was fed, it is clear why she needs to be kept warm a little. But when we take it out of the refrigerator and are going to feed it, is it necessary to keep it warm? The bottom line is clear to me, like, she should wake up before feeding. But I have 13 degrees in the refrigerator, she does not fall asleep, but only withstands 12 hours before eating. I feed before work in the morning, every minute counts, before and after meals it is simply impossible to keep warm.

[making a face mask from "French girl".]

Don't laugh.
When I don't bake bread, a lot of leaven accumulates. More and more every day. And in order not to feed a large amount of flour, and it's a pity to throw it away, then I making a face mask from "French girl". I add oils, vitamins, and when I added brewer's yeast, such a hat rose ...
Maybe someone will come in handy.

It is better, of course, to warm up a little, but if this does not work out, then you can feed it according to your scheme. However, in this case (according to my personal observations and taste sensations), the bread turns out to be not so ... rich or aromatic. Maybe at least after an evening meal (when you are at home) and on weekends, alternate the content of the starter culture in the refrigerator at room temperature

When she was fed, it is clear why she needs to be kept warm a little. But when we take it out of the refrigerator and are going to feed it, is it necessary to keep it warm? The bottom line is clear to me, like, she should wake up before feeding. But I have 13 degrees in the refrigerator, she does not fall asleep, but only withstands 12 hours before eating. I feed before work in the morning, every minute counts, before and after meals it is simply impossible to keep warm.

As personal observations show, the leaven does not like the constant content in imprisonment, and even at a sufficiently low temperature. Begins to get bored and wither, loses a lot in his strength and quality.

Well, if in the morning the time is running out completely, then you can feed it immediately in the refrigerator, but after the evening feeding, try to still leave it until morning at room temperature, you can somewhere closer to the windowsill.On weekends, try to "walk" during the day, so that you see the white light, after all, and a living creature cannot sit in the dark all the time

By the behavior of the leaven, you can already see whether such a regime is suitable for it, and how long you can keep it in the refrigerator "without walking."

Good day!
Again Khabarovsk is on the wire.
Without your help, no way!
For the fifth day I have been freezing and lilying my Frenchwoman, but ...
She is very sour. She survived the whole process. And "idle" fed, and "reanimated" (20-50-50; 50-100-100, etc.) The leaven itself is strong (I think so), because it took in proportions 20 g of sourdough + 100 g of flour + 100 g water, the leaven in 5 hours grew 4 times, as expected. I baked bread on this grown sourdough (according to the recipe 400g of sourdough + 250g of flour + 70 water, salt, sugar, yeast.) You can feel excess acid. I kneaded the dough for pancakes (I haven't baked yet, I'm waiting for the bubbles to appear), but the dough tastes sour and there is some bitterness in it, this happens when you make it with yeast and shift them too much.
I have such a suspicion that on the first day of growing the sourdough I had an elevated temperature (40 degrees), but according to the recipe these are comfortable conditions.
Tell me, please, what acid should a healthy leaven have? (She herself wondered: how to measure and describe it?). Well, some characteristic signs, or something ...
... I've read the Forum again, everywhere they write that DO NOT store in the refrigerator if t * is below 12 *, but in Rye sourdough (semi-finished product) it is clearly written: in the refrigerator at t * + 3 * c. Well, where do I need her now?
Everything! Head spin.
Lend a helping hand! Painfully delicious bread, OWN !!! I want to

Well, you have to reach out to Khabarovsk
So, Margosha, try to reduce the amount of leaven. As for me, the most optimal ratio, for 200 g of sourdough, is 200-250 g of flour and 100 ml of water. I also got sour bread when there was more leaven. And yet, and you do not throw the leaven into the bread, which is not sour?

Now, according to storage, MK-bacteria and wild yeast are present in the French sourdough, and so, to preserve the vital activity of bacteria, the rate is recommended. not lower than +12, and these bacteria are not in the rye sourdough, there is only wild yeast, therefore the temperature is allowed below, nothing bad will happen to them

[fresh kefir]

I am guided by the smell and taste of my starter - acid like fresh kefir and the taste is the same. No more.

[fresh kefir]

Yes, probably sourdough leaven. I brought it to its maximum height, but I had to stop somewhere half way (when it increased by 2 times in volume) and use it in this state. And at the maximum, she's so sour! We didn't eat pancakes yesterday either. So beautiful, full of holes. But it tastes like chewing yeast.
Well, I chose the recipe for bread and pancakes on purpose, where you can use more leaven, you know, it was a pity to throw it away ... But then, in finished form, the pigeons are full and the dog ate pancakes.
And I went on to "create".
Yes,

I am guided by the smell and taste of my starter - acid like fresh kefir and the taste is the same. No more.

is this taste and acidity always the same or is the acidity of the starter much stronger before feeding? I still have it sour at this moment. Probably need to deacidify it again?

[margosha]

margosha The acidity of the sourdough increases if I feed every other day (interval of 48 hours) and normal if I feed it every day (interval of 24 hours), and even more preferably about the same time ... (This is all if the temperature is room temperature, 22-23 degrees ). Not in seconds, of course, without fanaticism ... Plus, minutes, an hour or two does not play a role. And don't be afraid to taste your sourdough. I dissolve it in water, taste it, for acid, if acid suits me, I add flour (as much by weight as there was sourdough). If it seems to me that it is too sour, I dilute it with water so that it is not sour, and only then I add flour to a very soft dough. Here by eye. The density is the same as the dough for dumplings, but softer, and very sticky, it hangs directly on the fingers.Then she scraped her hands off the dough, covered the bowl, leaving a small hole for air to enter - and it costs a day before the next feeding. In this form, you can immediately put it on the dough, if you wish.
But my leaven lives in a thick state. And I do not throw away the surplus (I feed in a cumulative way). If necessary, I'll tell you how.

[Thank you]

And don't be afraid to taste your leaven

And I smell my leaven and taste it. There is a constant taste of mash in my mouth (I'm already starting to be afraid of the traffic police)
Today, in the afternoon, I fed in the proportions of 50g of sourdough + 100g of water + 100g of flour. I tried it, the acid is normal. I left it on the table. Temperature 25-26 * .. I return home in 4 hours. Grew up at 4! times. I try sour. Why is she so reactive?
Now I have put in two jars. In one, 20-100-100. Other 50-100-100. The temperature was lowered to 20 *. Until she started to grow, her acidity suits me. And then she begins to grow wildly and quickly sour. At this rate, I need to feed her every 3 hours. It's just some kind of insatiable beast !! It is not tamed in any way! I already added it and put it in a cool place. It will stop growing, and just get into the heat, rushing it!
It already seems to me that it just needs to be diluted to an acceptable-sour state and immediately put into action.

The density is the same as the dough for dumplings, but softer, and very sticky, it hangs directly on the fingers. Then she scraped her hands off the dough, covered the bowl, leaving a small hole for air to enter - and it costs a day before the next feeding. In this form, you can immediately put it on the dough

In my opinion, this is just what you advise, did I understand correctly?
And yet, tell us about your accumulative method and thick leaven, maybe then we will "tame" it at least a little. Yes, and with my "reactive" too much surplus turns out.
and Thank you !

[THANK YOU]

Well, you have to reach out to Khabarovsk

It's not just the mafia that has long arms!
And about the peroxidic leaven ... I feed it all the time, refresh it, I have never stood for more than 12 hours. It could still be peroxide, right? And then what to do?
AND THANK YOUthat calmed down on rye. One less problem has become, I upekla it safely in the refrigerator, waiting in the wings, because now all forces are thrown into fine-tuning to the standard French state.

[margosha]

margosha read here, answer 1506 with the words: "If you feed Calvel's leaven in the usual proportion ..."
https://Mcooker-enn.tomathouse.com/in...n=com_smf&topic=4994.1500

I still do this and do not throw anything away. I bake twice a week. In general, she should have a slightly sour taste, well, as I say, fresh kefir. I had a couple of times when I fed not every day, but every other day. Nothing terrible happened, just a little on top it was covered with a crust and sour of course more, and that's it. I repeat, my leaven lives at a pace. 22-23 degrees (the thermometer lies right on her bowl) and close it with a bag with a hole, about 1 cm in diameter. Maybe she's hot at your place? And I also feed in the proportion: weight of the leaven = weight of flour plus the amount of water = the amount of flour multiplied by 0.6. This is how the thick leaven (Kalvelevskaya) is softened.

Girls, let me wedge in. Margosha, you have the recipe from the first post, the modern liquid Erik Kaiser, and BlackHairedGirl has Calvel's sourdough. Let's discuss the first option. Kalvel's sourdough lives with us on a different topic and is discussed there. https://Mcooker-enn.tomathouse.com/index.php@option=com_smf&topic=7314.0

you have the recipe from the first post, Erik Kaiser's modern liquid, and BlackHairedGirl has Calvel's starter. Let's discuss the first option.

I'm just trying to find the right solution for the French liquid sourdough! Glad to any advice.
Tell me, please, if the leaven is peroxidized, is it still very active? It grows 3-4 times in 3-4 hours. So I feed her several times a day, I'll be a little late, everything got out of the can, that is, the volume increases 6 times. And only then does the cap begin to sag.Maybe it seems to me that it is peroxidized? But the fact is that I do not like the taste of bread, the excess sourness in it, and the same with pancakes. (And for me, it's just sour)
True, there is one "but" - both in bread and in pancakes I used recipes with a large amount of sourdough (200-300 g), I tried to "attach" the extra one. But after all, ready-made sourdough is, in fact, what is Opara?

When the leaven is peroxidized, it is not active, it is a fallen, barely bubbling, sad creature. In bread, you need to let the leaven at its peak, when it stands with a hat. What proportion do you feed? If 1: 2, then you will have to feed often, but try to feed in a large proportion, for example, 10 grams of starter and 100 + 100 water-flour, if the starter is acidic, then this way it softens.

We didn't eat pancakes yesterday either. So beautiful, full of holes. But it tastes like chewing yeast.

margosha, I bake sourdough pancakes with soda. I add soda depending on the acidity of the leaven. Here is a link to the recipe.
https://Mcooker-enn.tomathouse.com/in...ic=8150.0

Girls, what good fellows you are!
They themselves got to the bottom of everything, found out, sorted out all these processes, you have gorgeous bread in your pictures, I was envious straight
And although for me while this science is the cultivation of sourdough, a dense forest, I am trying to learn from your step-by-step lessons.
And the very first experience, unfortunately, was unsuccessful.
The first day I kneaded rye flour 55g + 5g. malt + 55gr. water-left warm (30gr. oven)
After 24 hours, the starter culture was good, elastic, bubbly.
Further according to the scheme 110gr. starter cultures + 110g. flour + 110gr. water, left for the night in a ceramic pot, came in the morning and she ran away overnight, poured past the pot and the table was stained, inside there was, though a fallen but bubbling mass, the sight pleased me, separated again 110 gr. and further according to the scheme, and then nothing followed
waited 12 hours, looked at her, nothing - silence, well, bubbles and that's it, no rise
in the evening I decided to repeat the procedure with separation and feeding, and leave the rest.
Right now, I came in a new feed, no stirring at all - stupid flour with water, and there are bubbles in the remainder, but not enough at all.
I'm in a stupor, how is it, why did it happen ??
I decided to put it all on ordinary bread in a bread maker, and put the leaven again. Please tell me what could be the error.

luchok, I also have a question .... And where does this initial proportion 55 + 5 + 55 come from? After all, the process begins with the proportions 100 + 10 + 120. And this is no coincidence, every day a certain colony of bacteria develops, so that the correct symbiosis is formed, some are removed. So you broke the process from the first step.

Well, I somehow thought that the number of products is half as much if you take it, it's not important, I read somewhere from Vika that she also uses the cumulative method, starting with a smaller amount, if I understood correctly, of course

The accumulative method is used in another case, when the starter culture has grown, is strong and ready to work, i.e. you feed for example 20-20-20, get about 60 g of starter, feed 60-60-60, get 180, feed 180-180- 180, get 540 yeast and bake bread.

And of course, thanks, I'll go then before it's too late to add, otherwise I have already kneaded half of the ingredients
And also tell me - be sure to add malt, I didn't really like the smell with it - it smelled like corn sticks

In this case, malt is needed.

and I started without malt, we have a shortage of it, and all the carcasses are fine

[Thanks everyone]

Thanks everyone who responded to my requests!
Finally, we managed to solve the problem with the sour leaven. It's just that it's very hot at home - she was growing rapidly, and the recommended 8-12 hours between feeds were unacceptable. Yesterday I devoted almost a day to her. She brought her to a 2-fold growth, took away a part (she left only what was not removed from the can) and fed again. And she risked baking bread in the oven. Rather, 2 breads according to different recipes.
Both turned out just great. : kolobok: Real homemade bread! Ruddy, fragrant, tall.Pulp with good uniform nostriliness.
It was only thanks to the information from this site that my efforts were crowned with success. And they were adequately appreciated: my husband is from Ukraine, in his house they always baked bread themselves. And how pleased I was to feed him OWN bread and hear from him that the bread turned out to be REAL HOME.
Now the next leaven is ripe. I will try to make pancakes again.

I bake sourdough pancakes with soda. I add soda depending on the acidity of the leaven.

Once I already did it with soda, but for some reason all the bubbles disappeared at once, the dough sat down and the pancakes turned out to be rubber. Nothing, and we can handle it!
And one more question is, how to transfer liquid sourdough to a thick one in order to delay its rise a little and not feed it so often? after all, it is simply impossible to bake bread 2 times a day. Can you give me a reference?

[margosha]

margosha, here's another recipe Pancakes with sourdough without soda. Try it!

I am sending by the link Converting liquid sourdough to thick

[KAVA]

KAVA!
I have already tried baking according to your recipe for pancakes. The pancakes were just super full of holes, tender, but ... sour. That's when I tried to add soda, I already wrote about the result. Maybe the leaven was slightly acidic ... I'll try again.
And on the translation from liquid to thick there is a question. There it is recommended to keep it in the refrigerator to slow down growth, but, as far as I understand, at t * below 10-12 * MC bacteria die.

The acidity depends only on the leaven. Soda will definitely neutralize it.
Regarding the content in the refrigerator - you can keep the leaven (but not all). If yours is French, then a temperature of 10-12 * may be critical for her.

Girls, tell me, please!
After baking, the bread should cool on the wire rack, and if I bake bread in the oven, what should I do with it? Do I need to spray with water, cover with a towel until it cools completely?
And in general, can there be any rules for yeast bread, for sourdough bread?

My bread cools down the same way, on a wire rack under a towel. I remember my grandmother, too, after baking, laid out the bread on a towel (there were no grates) and covered it up with others, saying that the bread needed to rest.

My bread, no matter where I bake it, cools on the wire rack, but I do not cover it with anything, and the crust becomes not crispy. And under the towel, he kind of gets wet. I don't like it.

[Basja, Suslya]

Basja, Suslya , Thank you!
I realized that everyone chooses what he likes best.
And here's another "technical" question:
Yesterday baked Italian bread on liquid sourdough, everything worked out as if by notes. I decided to repeat it today. The dough came up perfectly, a high dome, sprinkled it and put it in the oven (I bake in a cauldron under the lid), after 10 minutes I remove the lid, and I have the whole top of the opal. Naturally, she did it. Why did this happen? I have a suspicion that the top is very wet. Or maybe another reason?

I just overstopped the bread, so I fell, it also rises in the oven, but here, as they say, the limit was exhausted, I had to fall

I just overstopped the bread, so I fell, it also rises in the oven, but here, as they say, the limit was exhausted, I had to fall

Science for the future, otherwise I wanted to make it even higher than yesterday. But the bread is still leaky and very, very tasty.

Citizens, help!
My Frenchwoman lived normally, I fed her in the morning and in the evening. Baking bread And suddenly the last three days almost does not rise, the bubbles are small like that. Maybe she is cold?

It seems that she does not have enough flour, try to sausage her thicker.

Thank you, I changed the flour recently, maybe the humidity is different ... Now I added more. We'll take a look in the morning.

Girls, please tell me which flour is better to feed the sourdough? It was with great difficulty that I raised a Frenchwoman, and now I am not overjoyed by her, my assistant. The bread picks up excellently and without yeast. And recently I became the owner of a bread machine, now I bake every day, bread in my family goes off with a bang. Yes, only I feed her, my starter culture is not the way it should be according to the recipe - premium flour + a pinch of wheat bran. I see that she is strong and she really likes this kind of food. But according to the rules, she needs to eat only flour, no bran. She does not really like premium flour Belyaevskie podukty without bran, I see that it weakens if I do not add bran. Today I bought Uvelka flour especially for dressing, the shops have both Makfa flour and Nordic flour. Who knows which is the best for sourdough, please advise?

... only I feed her, my starter culture is not the way it should be according to the recipe - premium flour + a pinch of wheat bran. I see that she is strong and she really likes this kind of food. But according to the rules, she needs to eat only flour, no bran.

It is very tasty for her - it is flour 1c. which contains a little bran. So she eats pretty well with you. Therefore, it is strong. On simple flour, it periodically weakens and you have to give it a pinch of bran, then a spoonful of rye flour, then a little honey.
And since she likes this kind of food, then, as they say: they don't look for good from good.

[Viki]

Thank you, Viki!
All my doubts were dispelled, indeed, they are not looking for good from good!

Hello everyone! Can you join your ranks?

I have played enough with a bread maker for two months. So I decided to master sourdough bread. I studied theory on my own and for a long time, and when I already seemed to know everything, I started to practice. Yes, it was not there. It turned out to be a mess in my head. Oh, and I suffered with your Frenchwoman, until I realized what she needed. Already I began to grow a new one, and then I looked my friend began to stir, apparently from fright. And I spawned cans, horror -6 pieces. And I feed everyone. Tomorrow I will start handing out in good hands.

And the new one is already ripe. Girls, who will explain to me how to feed her? I read here that they feed differently: either 1: 1, then 1: 2, then 1:20, then 1:50. So what's right?

[Scorpio]

Scorpio, I understand you perfectly, because I have just gone through all the stages with my Frenchwoman myself. Experienced specialists from the site, of course, will help you, as they helped me. Thank them for this tremendous!
In the meantime, I will share with you how I have adapted to my leaven.
I feed it 2 times a day. In the morning and in the evening, those after 12 hours. Leave 20-30 grams of ripe sourdough in a jar, pour 50g of lukewarm water there, beat with a fork until it is foamy, add 50g of flour. Wheat flour. I put the flour in / s so that the sourdough does not grow very quickly. I put it in a cool place (14 * -15 * s) This is very important. If it is warmer, it quickly turns sour and outgrows, if less than 10 *, then the bacterial MC may die. For example, I did this procedure at 8 o'clock in the morning. Exactly after 12 hours, the leaven grows 2 times or a little more. At 7-8 pm we have 120 g of ready-made ripe zavkaski. It can already be used. But I add again 50 g of water + 50 g of flour to this volume (to 120 g). I leave it overnight. The next morning I have 220g of sourdough ready. I take 200g from here for bread, and on the remaining 20g (they are just smeared over the jar) I again grow sourdough.
I really like the recipe for French sourdough bread. 200 g of sourdough goes there and the bread is baked on the French bread mode (6 hours). those come home in the evening, and the bread is already ready for dinner.
In this way, every morning I start all over again from 20 and put on new bread.
I hope that my little experience will help you, and ASY from the site they will correct me if they confuse something.

Good day.
Can you please tell me what's wrong with my starter?
She ripened with me 4 days ago. Perfectly lifted bread according to the French recipe in a bread machine. I baked about 8 times, that is, I did feeding and softening according to the scheme proposed by Viki. Everything was just fine, and the openwork porosity and the bread rise was excellent, right up against the cotton roof. But today (this is the 8th day) the same bread rose much less, albeit with good porosity and the same taste.
I had another portion of sourdough ready for baking (structure like yeast dough, taste with pleasant sourness, no foreign odors).Raised in a jar 2.5 times, as required for baking. But the bread turned out to be terrible - with a sagging roof !!!!!!!!!!!
... I really did feed her with premium Kulindorovskaya flour.
How can she restore her previous tone ??? What could have happened to her ??
Please tell me where in Odessa you can buy 1st grade flour?

[Svetka]

Svetka, sometimes the leaven weakens, and at this time it can be fed with a spoonful of honey. I don't add honey, I feed it with premium flour, but when feeding, I always add a pinch of wheat bran to the sourdough, this sourdough loves!

[Svetka]

Svetka
Could be affected by rejuvenation. That is, private feeding with a large amount of flour weakens the leaven. Give her a crumb of honey along with top dressing and let it stand for a day. Everything will be OK.

[Svetka,]

You can also give a little rye flour. Not so long ago, I also rejuvenated myself, I thought the end of my leaven. I just didn’t understand this. Svetka, You have a very young leaven and already need to soften it? She's changing your mind, maybe? Maybe she's too warm? Maybe you need to feed her more often?

Thanks everyone for the feedback and tips.
The fact is that she is in my room, we have somewhere around 25 degrees. I used to add bran and rye flour (on the 4th day of the growth cycle), and then transferred Kulindorovskaya to Bogumila flour. So, the leaven ate it somewhere for 2-3 days, but today it has weakened.
My feeding cycle is like this:
-5 grams of starter culture + 125 high-quality flour + 125 water - rise 2.5 times somewhere in 10 hours.
then I bake French.
If the rise is faster than 10 hours, then to this amount I add another 50 grams of high-quality flour and 50 grams of water.
I constantly monitor organoleptic properties. And she verified maturation in a glass of water.
While I was writing the top post, I decided to feed her 50 grams of sourdough + 50 grams of water + 50 grams of rye flour with bran. Increased 2.5 times in 3 hours.
Then 100 grams of fermented water + 100 grams of water + 100 grams of rye flour, it increased by 2.5 times in 3 hours.
Can it be transferred back to wheat flour, or is it too early and it has not grown stronger ???
I bought flour Totem-spike from hard varieties today, can I use it in sourdough? And how do you use it for baking? Please tell me my mistakes.